Luir's Outpost and Crime

[LauraMars]

Saw this in RAT - thought I'd make it into its own thread for discussion.

Luir's super tough on crime stance coupled with having more "units" of soldier NPCs (and probably guard NPCs in general) around than either city state, it is certainly a rolling ball of butcher knives if you break a law.  I'm not even sure that a city elf should be able to pick Luir's as a starting location.  It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Luir's Outpost is very tough on crime - yet they do have a jail.  Is there a reason it isn't utilized as the jails in the city states are utilized?  i.e. Is there a reason there's no crime code with a release for the PC after x amount of hours?

For that matter, why ARE there so many unit npcs standing around in Luir's?  That's never made a whole lot of sense to me from a game play perspective.  Allanak and Tuluk don't have unit npcs standing around in the bazaar, and they seem to handle crime just fine.  It's not as though you NEED multiple unit npc to take down that pickpocket elf - if you screw up in Luir's, nearly every npc in the outpost is going to be on your ass anyway, even the prostitutes in the tavern.  I can maybe see having a unit at the gates, but having units standing around in the bazaar seems a bit weird to me.

I agree with Patuk, Nyr, etc that Luir's should probably not be used as a starting location for new players unless there are a few changes made to the outpost where Crime is concerned.

What does everyone else think?

[Molten Heart]

I think the jails in Luir's are more of a resource for the Kuraci, used as a holding area when needed and not so much a place to take everyone that breaks the law.

If breaking the law in Luir's wasn't a capitol offense, I like the idea of having offenders expelled from the outpost rather than detained (similarly to the City States).  I like this idea for other outposts and villages too.   But then this would open up a lot of problems.   I suspect the way things are now is just intended to keep things simple.  Kuraci playing policemen seems to go counter to their style.

[jcortrig]

I'll go a step further and just say that I really dislike the "unit" NPCs (no matter where they are) as a concept.  Having a couple dozen of them around Luir's is just salt in the wound.   

[LauraMars]

Furthermore, there are other issues with Luir's as a starting location that were mentioned in RAT but I'll bring them up again anyway:

1. No Housing
2. No "jobs" aside from joining Clan Kurac
3. Lower population = less chance of meaningful interaction that would get new players hooked.

[Pale Horse]

I fail to see how the presence of so many armed units within Luirs does not play into their image, nor they "playing policemen," inside.

Luirs is situated, historically, between two city-states which were never fully friendly at the best of times, frequently erupt into outright warfare, and have seen the fortress as a wonderful staging point from which to attack their enemies.

At the same time, the fortress sits in the crossroads of the Known, and not just for the cities.  Tribes and wanderers and caravans..they all pass through.  It has the potential to be the richest sight in the Known.

Who else are they supposed to rely on?  They are the only known Merchant House that has a small-city sized area to call their own and which has a huge amount of influence in the Known, a target that anyone with sufficient strength or numbers would be more than willing to take over.

It's happened before.  And considering how Zalanthas works, it'll happen again.

[LauraMars]

It's not really about what forces House Kurac is able to muster if there is an invasion - if there's an invasion by any of the city states or other merchant houses, it will happen with staff guidance/supervision and the unit npcs can come out then if necessary (though I agree with jcortrig.  I prefer non-unit filled battles as in the last HRPT)

It's about the playability aspect of having unit npcs littered all over the outpost.

House Kurac can certainly have a standing army - but does it have to stand in the bazaar and chase pickpockets?

[Jherlen]

It's been years and years, but I ran the show back in Luir's as a -da once upon a time. Back then, at least, Kurac wasn't really interested in making Luir's a city/village, or hosting anyone non-Kurac from living there. So a lot of the misconceptions with Luir's Outpost, I think, come from people thinking it as a village instead of a fortress or trading post or an... Outpost. It isn't, in my opinion, a place where people are born, grow up, live and die -- unless they're somehow connected to House Kurac. And since Kurac isn't, or at least wasn't, interested in making Luir's a place for permanent people to live, I think that influences their stance on crime, i.e. "play by our rules Or Else".

So I agree with others who are saying Luir's (as well as Red Storm and the 'rinth) are not great places for newbies to start. It would probably take a policy change in Kurac to make that change.

As a more radical idea, I might propose that people starting in Luir's start with tribal, not northern accent, since many of the people passing through Luir's are tribals of one sort or another anyway. But that's straying a bit off topic.

[Pale Horse]

It's not really about what forces House Kurac is able to muster if there is an invasion - if there's an invasion by any of the city states or other merchant houses, it will happen with staff guidance/supervision and the unit npcs can come out then if necessary (though I agree with jcortrig.  I prefer non-unit filled battles as in the last HRPT)

It's about the playability aspect of having unit npcs littered all over the outpost.

House Kurac can certainly have a standing army - but does it have to stand in the bazaar and chase pickpockets?

I suppose I am viewing this from the perspective of "how would the world act" instead of "how is this fun for a player with X desire."

I too agree, though, that Luirs should probably not be a starting position for new characters/players.  Maybe make it a karma-level specific starting spot.

[Withered Ocotillo]

The unit NPCs all over the streets were created back when Luirs was actually attacked and conquered in an HRPT, and then taken back again in another big HRPT a long time later.

They were kept there after the HRPT ended, but never removed. They're kind of dangerous as they are far more powerful than your average NPC. I agree it would probably be a good idea to remove them - not that you have much chance in general at surviving as a criminal in Luirs to begin with, but it would help a little.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

There should be shitty Housing in the Bailey.  There should be no unit NPCs. The jail should be used, and Sergeants on up given the authority to deal with violators in any manner they see fit.

[Delirium]

The amount of unit NPCs standing around in Luir's is, IMO, flat-out ridiculous.

One unit at each 'gate' I could see, maximum, but as it is now, it's like they have their entire standing army at high alert at all times. I'm imagining some poor trader walking through an aisle of 36 soldiers just to get through the inner gate. It is probably a holdover from the days of actual fighting at Luir's - if real conflict breaks out, staff would be overseeing that anyway, so it would be a simple matter to get rid of them and then load them up as needed. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if some of those extra units were due to some accidental NPC-duplication.

I miss the days when Luir's felt like a dusty old wild-west town where you get cut if you get sassy, instead of a locked-down fortress of unit doom.

[HavokBlue]

The problem with this is that Luir's is not a dusty wild west town. It is a hub of commerce with an entire military division devoted to protecting Kurac's trade, and by extension, any trade occuring in Kurac's territory. The jail is only there for the convenience of Fist players so that they can use their judgment ICly to handle crimes that would otherwise result in a red stain on the tavern floor.

I don't want to go into force sizes and virtual numbers here since that's all stuff you should find out in-game, but particularly when you consider Kurac no longer has Ten Sarak to worry about or station virtual soldiers at, the "standing army" in the Outpost makes sense.

[Lizzie]

Once upon a time:

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,19586.0.html

ever since then, I've complied to report duplicates.

I've typoed/bugged those NPCs several times in the past few years - they're often removed, but game resets always return them. There's one guy in Luir's who's always carrying a bench - I've seen three of him at the same time, once. Each in a different part of the outpost.

I have no idea how the code for setting up rooms works, but I think the entire zone needs to be copied to a testing port, with no NPCs at all - then have brand newly-spawned shopkeepers, individual guards, individual wandering whatevers, and sure - even maybe a half dozen units total added to that test port zone. And then - the whole shebang ported back to the game, and the game reset so that it saves that way as a total and complete "do-over."

It'd be one of those kinds of things that might've been done back when the game shut down on Saturdays.

[26 dollars]

I believe part of the problem is that some of the spawns are messed up.  This at least reminds me to bug it.

Concerning the prevalence of visible force in the Outpost compared to larger city-states, that's a little easier to explain away.  In Tuluk, for example, there's something like a half of a million people?  In Allanak, almost a million?  Their respective militia's account for less than 5% of their populations.  Their claimed or contested provinces expand to multitudes of lands beyond their actual centers of power.

In Luir's, on the other hand, you have a population that is 90%+ Kuraci employed.  It is in a much smaller, more tightly controlled space.  It seems to fit with the mentality of the area, that if you're a PC in Luir's and you're not affiliated with Kurac, you're an outsider, a guest.  As to the units, I do dislike how they're always "standing in rows" and it has less of the feel I imagine of cartel street soldiers lazing about the market and commons shade.  That's how it's presented, though, so I suppose we all have our opinions.

In Red Storm, you can find a similar ideal, only the law is the lawless.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Nah. Either place the real military presence in every location, or remove them from Luir's.

[HavokBlue]

"Nah, your reasonable post is irrelevant because I said so."

[Jherlen]

I'm sure Kurac has a sizable standing army in Luir's, I just think the question is whether that army needs to be displayed as NPC units stationed everywhere, or if it could be made virtual.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

"Nah, your reasonable post is irrelevant because I said so."

I'm not saying it's irrelevant. I'm saying that the standing army should either be shown everywhere, or taken out of Luir's. I would go for shown everywhere, personally, but I'd also remove unit NPCs from the crime code. Really, shit, the crime code just needs a very serious revamping.

You should have a number of options that can be set individually per center of civilization. Maybe a script attached to the 'commander' NPC that defines this. I could go into much further detail, I guess, but not here.

[Ouroboros]

...So a lot of the misconceptions with Luir's Outpost, I think, come from people thinking it as a village instead of a fortress or trading post or an... Outpost. It isn't, in my opinion, a place where people are born, grow up, live and die -- unless they're somehow connected to House Kurac.

There are indeed a lot of misconceptions about the Outpost, and the most prominent one is exactly that: That it has no citizens outside of Kuraci employees. In the interest of not posting the same content over and over, you'll find my fact-backed response to that here.

As a more radical idea, I might propose that people starting in Luir's start with tribal, not northern accent, since many of the people passing through Luir's are tribals of one sort or another anyway. But that's straying a bit off topic.

Not that radical, that was the actual topic of the thread I linked, which 7DV started. On the GDB there's rarely such a thing as a new idea.

[Jherlen]

The Bailey notwithstanding (and that's where I assumed the few independent shopkeepers always stayed myself), much of Luir's is a Kuraci facility one way or another. And Luir's isn't all that big, and Kurac has a lot of operations there. I remember a staff post from a long time back saying the entire population of the Outpost was around 5000 people. I'll see if I can find it. The majority of those are probably soldiers in the Kuraci Fist or House workers, not unaffiliated. So while I'll grant you that the Bailey is home to some indies, derelicts, and transients, some of which who may stay there more or less permanently, I'm going to stand by my assertion that thinking of Luir's as a village a la Red Storm or even Cenyr is the wrong way to go about it. I'd like to see staff's opinion, though.

[Ouroboros]

Players who've played in Kurac to some extent tend to feel the Outpost is comprised entirely of Kuraci family and employees. It's not their fault, that's the feeling one gets. This is compounded by conflicting, or more pointedly absent, clarification from staff over the years. This feeling is then taken as fact and shared with other players, who might or might not have played in Kurac. Those players in turn, seeing mostly Kuraci in the Outpost and hearing opinions as facts, take them to heart. And thus, misconceptions are propagated.

In the post I linked, I've shared valid fact as to why it is Luir's Outpost has a significant enough population of residents and citizens outside of Kuraci family and employees. I've also mentioned that any evidence to the contrary is actually entirely hearsay and fact-less, based only on individual player's feelings, hunches, and personal but not defining experiences. Staff's opinion is welcome and has actually been asked for many times on this topic, but the facts I've presented stand regardless. If staff's view differs, a whole lotta retconning will be needed to bring that in line with their view.

Starting locations as a whole represent your character's background, they aren't just jump spots into wherever you'd like to start playing your character. If that were the case, accents and tattoo's would be offered separately from starting locations. If no other fact of those I presented sits well with you, the fact staff added the Outpost as a starting location available to any player (and not just Kuraci family and employees), should tell you they feel it's a valid place for a character to have been born and raised in. If it weren't the case, it wouldn't be a starting option and staff would simply transport Kuraci family and sponsored employee roles when they came out of chargen. Much as is the case with Cenyr, which isn't a valid place for a PC to have been born and raised in as per documentation and thus isn't available as a starting location.

[Italis]

Jherlen is correct.

Luir's Outpost is not just another village - it's a fortified structure held by House Kurac, and peopled almost entirely by their family and employees. It does support a small, mostly transient population, but they're only permitted to live in the relatively lawless shanty town between the walls.

Yes, all the real-estate inside is being used by Kurac.

You can start in Luirs, and have Luirs in your background. You can be born there or raised there. But unless you're a Kuraci, you're not a 'citizen.' Citizenship is basically a meaningless concept in Luir's Outpost.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'd certainly have living quarters in the bailey. Give the Bailey a wild west feel. Keep only the guards at the gates, and at the gates of the outpost, and have no Kuraci NPCs patrolling the Bailey. Throw in more structures in the bailey to reflect the enviroment. Throw in NPCs to do the same. Basically, Rinth it up.

I'm good with this picture of the Outpost.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'd certainly have living quarters in the bailey. Give the Bailey a wild west feel. Keep only the guards at the gates, and at the gates of the outpost, and have no Kuraci NPCs patrolling the Bailey. Throw in more structures in the bailey to reflect the enviroment. Throw in NPCs to do the same. Basically, Rinth it up.

I'm good with this picture of the Outpost.

Fuck yes.

[Italis]

I'd certainly have living quarters in the bailey. Give the Bailey a wild west feel. Keep only the guards at the gates, and at the gates of the outpost, and have no Kuraci NPCs patrolling the Bailey. Throw in more structures in the bailey to reflect the enviroment. Throw in NPCs to do the same. Basically, Rinth it up.

I'm good with this picture of the Outpost.

Currently this is the case, it's just virtual.

However, a bailey upgrade project is already in the works - although rentable apartments is not going to happen. At least not in the existing form.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Groovy.

[Ouroboros]

Jherlen is correct.

Luir's Outpost is not just another village - it's a fortified structure held by House Kurac, and peopled almost entirely by their family and employees. It does support a small, mostly transient population, but they're only permitted to live in the relatively lawless shanty town between the walls.

Yes, all the real-estate inside is being used by Kurac.

You can start in Luirs, and have Luirs in your background. You can be born there or raised there. But unless you're a Kuraci, you're not a 'citizen.' Citizenship is basically a meaningless concept in Luir's Outpost.

Then I would suggest the above-mentioned retcons begin, starting with the removal of players being able to pay for citizenship and ending with documentation changed to clearly reflect this view, which so far has been vague and conflicting. I would also question the validity of being able to be born and raised in the Outpost at all, and it's option as a starting location.

It seems that an entirely different direction had begun for the Outpost, including citizenship and jails that were intended to eventually be codedly used, and has now shifted into a different direction with code and documentation relics left behind.

It also seems like with this new direction, anyone born and raised in the Outpost outside of family and sponsored Fist roles is entirely limited to having been born and raised in the Bailey only. If that's the case, and what the starting location actually represents, it should be clearly defined and as 7DV suggested, expanded on. Players point there should start -in- the Bailey, which itself should be more fleshed out and treated more like the 'rinth. Right now it's conceptually the same as being able to point to Allanak, and with no documentation stating this, implying that everyone that points to 'nak outside of Nobility and Templars is actually not from there but the 'rinth.

[Jherlen]

I don't actually think much retconning needs to happen. There isn't and has never been significant housing (real or virtual) in Luir's outside the Bailey that needs to be retconned. This could be clarified in the docs, though.

Re: Citizenship in Luir's - I played a character in charge of granting this for some time. It was a while ago, but what it basically amounts to is making yourself known to Kurac and having word passed around for people to be (slightly) less suspicious of you. Unless things have changed (they may have), Kurac doesn't really confer any special rights on "citizens" or keep them from "non-citizens", what you get for the privilege, basically, is that the Fist won't throw you out quite as quickly for overstaying your welcome. There are tangible benefits for PCs, sure, but let's call it what it is: basically a bribe to House Kurac to live under their protection.

I'd say anyone born and raised in the Outpost was either raised in the Bailey or had at least one parent who worked for Kurac somehow. The Kuraci aren't totally heartless, and I imagine they'd let their employees keep children with them in whatever living quarters, barracks, etc. was provided. Once the children grew old enough they'd probably be put to some sort of work. Or, alternately, they aren't even from Luir's at all; they're a tribal from the surrounding regions, or a trader/caravan follower from somewhere else who made Luir's their central hub.

The existence of a jail doesn't really mean much - any outpost or military installation of Luir's size would need some sort of holding pen. And as we all know from the very reason this thread was founded, Kuraci justice doesn't tend to involve long stays in jail.

I don't see the point of having new players in Luir's start in the Bailey, though. The actual starting room in a city is just for convenience, I don't think it's meant to make any sort of statement about a city or its background at all.

[Ouroboros]

Re: Citizenship in Luir's - I played a character in charge of granting this for some time. It was a while ago, but what it basically amounts to is making yourself known to Kurac and having word passed around for people to be (slightly) less suspicious of you.

Or to simply pay the 500 coin fee to the NPC in-charge of granting citizenship, as there is in both city-states. Last I checked that NPC was alive and present in the Outpost, and if they weren't recently removed, they certainly should be now.

Unless things have changed (they may have), Kurac doesn't really confer any special rights on "citizens" or keep them from "non-citizens", what you get for the privilege, basically, is that the Fist won't throw you out quite as quickly for overstaying your welcome. There are tangible benefits for PCs, sure, but let's call it what it is: basically a bribe to House Kurac to live under their protection.

I'd probably have avoided bringing that up in a GDB discussion, but since you have... Yes, it codedly meant absolutely nothing. What it was intended to do though is work alongside the Outpost's crimcode and the coded utilization of the jail by NPCs. That work stalled out on staff's end though, leaving behind those confusing relics of code (much like the NPCs that are the topic of discussion to begin with). What rights citizenship would have offered past that is anyone's guess. But as I said, it appears staff has once again changed directions in what they want to see the Outpost be.

The existence of a jail doesn't really mean much - any outpost or military installation of Luir's size would need some sort of holding pen. And as we all know from the very reason this thread was founded, Kuraci justice doesn't tend to involve long stays in jail.

Actually... The jail didn't always exist in Luir's, exactly because it wasn't needed in the past. Because during that time the Outpost functioned more like it seems to be driven towards now, a military installation with no laws needed to protect non-existing citizens and no likely outcome other than summary execution. The jail was implemented (along with many other structural changes to the Outpost), with the intent of it eventually being used by NPC soldiers as jails function in the city-states, with the addition and implementation of crimcode. The Kuraci Fist then would function as the militia does in either city-state, including PC's clanned in it. It was meant to be a step towards a more civil-minded Outpost, that would reflect the fact it had grown past a purely military installation and into a thriving trade market that had attracted permanent residents. Instead, all it serves now is a place for executions to quietly take place without the IC bloody mess or the OOC risk of NPC Fist ganking PC Fist due to the said lack of crimcode.

I don't see the point of having new players in Luir's start in the Bailey, though. The actual starting room in a city is just for convenience, I don't think it's meant to make any sort of statement about a city or its background at all.

It doesn't have to, sure, when the interior of the Outpost is a few rooms away. It's a minor detail. Then again, the 'rinth is only a short distance from the legal boundry of 'nak. Sometimes the small details serve to drive home a point that might otherwise be lost.

[26 dollars]

After reading your last post, I can tell you haven't played in House Kurac in some time.  It might be polite not to litter this thread with more misconceptions.

[Ouroboros]

After reading your last post, I can tell you haven't played in House Kurac in some time.  It might be polite not to litter this thread with more misconceptions.

That, in and of itself, would be a misconception. I will be polite however, yes, and point out this is an open discussion where all are welcome to share their thoughts.

It might be polite for you in turn not to dismiss another's view as rubbish, simply because your own opinion or experience might differ. Not everyone sees the same view from where they, or their characters, stand.

[solera]

 

Citizenship is basically a meaningless concept in Luir's Outpost.

You can buy it in Luirs, unless that's changed.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I was playing in Kurac when the jail was built. It was indeed intended to be used for a crim code at one point.

[Molten Heart]

Citizenship is basically a meaningless concept in Luir's Outpost.

You can buy it in Luirs, unless that's changed.

If this is still possible, being a "citizen" doesn't mean much.  Sometimes this is only an advantage when you want to stop being a citizen of somewhere else.

[26 dollars]

After reading your last post, I can tell you haven't played in House Kurac in some time.  It might be polite not to litter this thread with more misconceptions.

That, in and of itself, would be a misconception. I will be polite however, yes, and point out this is an open discussion where all are welcome to share their thoughts.

It might be polite for you in turn not to dismiss another's view as rubbish, simply because your own opinion or experience might differ. Not everyone sees the same view from where they, or their characters, stand.

Here, let me help you out:

There are indeed a lot of misconceptions about the Outpost, and the most prominent one is exactly that: That it has no citizens outside of Kuraci employees.

Wrong.

Instead, all it serves now is a place for executions to quietly take place without the IC bloody mess or the OOC risk of NPC Fist ganking PC Fist due to the said lack of crimcode.

Wrong.

You're 0/2.  Granted, I will agree with this statement (the only one stated as opinion):

Last I checked that NPC was alive and present in the Outpost, and if they weren't recently removed, they certainly should be now.

[evilcabbage]

After reading your last post, I can tell you haven't played in House Kurac in some time.  It might be polite not to litter this thread with more misconceptions.

That, in and of itself, would be a misconception. I will be polite however, yes, and point out this is an open discussion where all are welcome to share their thoughts.

It might be polite for you in turn not to dismiss another's view as rubbish, simply because your own opinion or experience might differ. Not everyone sees the same view from where they, or their characters, stand.

Here, let me help you out:

There are indeed a lot of misconceptions about the Outpost, and the most prominent one is exactly that: That it has no citizens outside of Kuraci employees.

Wrong.

Instead, all it serves now is a place for executions to quietly take place without the IC bloody mess or the OOC risk of NPC Fist ganking PC Fist due to the said lack of crimcode.

Wrong.

You're 0/2.  Granted, I will agree with this statement (the only one stated as opinion):

Last I checked that NPC was alive and present in the Outpost, and if they weren't recently removed, they certainly should be now.

I think Italis confirmed Ouroboros' statements, so, sorry to say uhm... you're wrong?

[26 dollars]

On second thought, I should apologize.  Having spent half of the last three or so years in Luir's, my perception is stubbornly set, taking as best as I can glean from the room descriptions, the documentation, and answers I have received from staff.  I don't honestly know where you get your facts from.  It is my personal view that you're wrong.

[26 dollars]

I think Italis confirmed Ouroboros' statements, so, sorry to say uhm... you're wrong?

You, sir, have the reading comprehension of a cabbage.  No, just kidding.  You should go back and read the thread, though.

[evilcabbage]

I'd certainly have living quarters in the bailey. Give the Bailey a wild west feel. Keep only the guards at the gates, and at the gates of the outpost, and have no Kuraci NPCs patrolling the Bailey. Throw in more structures in the bailey to reflect the enviroment. Throw in NPCs to do the same. Basically, Rinth it up.

I'm good with this picture of the Outpost.

Currently this is the case, it's just virtual.

However, a bailey upgrade project is already in the works - although rentable apartments is not going to happen. At least not in the existing form.

I think I did read the thread.

[26 dollars]

The defense rests.

[Ouroboros]

There are indeed a lot of misconceptions about the Outpost, and the most prominent one is exactly that: That it has no citizens outside of Kuraci employees.

Wrong.

The fact any PC has been able to purchase citizenship for years now says otherwise. The fact it's been an oversight on staff's part, or more specifically, a project left half-done and forgotten, doesn't make it any less valid. What that citizenship might mean is entirely debatable, whether Luir's currently can have citizens, isn't.

Instead, all it serves now is a place for executions to quietly take place without the IC bloody mess or the OOC risk of NPC Fist ganking PC Fist due to the said lack of crimcode.

Wrong.

Let me rephrase then, since you missed the point. The jail has no coded function with regards to crimcode, given Luir's still lacks crimcode. When it was added, it was intended to be tied to a crimcode that was never completed. All it serves now is... whatever Kuraci PCs want to do with it, like any other clan-guarded locked room. That easier to stomach?

On second thought, I should apologize.  Having spent half of the last three or so years in Luir's, my perception is stubbornly set, taking as best as I can glean from the room descriptions, the documentation, and answers I have received from staff.  I don't honestly know where you get your facts from.  It is my personal view that you're wrong.

Like I said, your view and experience differs from those of others. And your bias is inevitable as well, for the very reasons you've stated. As for my facts, they rest partly in knowing the history of the clan and the direction it was being taken in, and partly in what I've gleaned myself and logic dictates. The former is based on hard fact, which you can still partly dig up in the clan boards if you're interested in knowing what came before you. The later is completely subjective, as everyone's opinion always is.

Without clear-cut documentation speaking one way or another, and with conflicting signs in-game, anyone's guess is as valid as another's. I just tried to base mine on logic and facts, instead of gut feelings and nuance developed over extended time in the clan. Either way, you shouldn't have to ask where I get my facts, when I've clearly laid them out.

Staff has refrained from setting down clarification on the matter of Luir's residency for a long time now, both on the general board and the clan board. Perhaps because its direction was still being decided, perhaps because it's too grey an area to set in stone, or perhaps because they simply can't keep up with every single discussion thread. Whatever the case, Italis has now clarified the matter for everyone, and all that remains is for this official stance to be reflected in code and documentation more clearly. And perhaps for you to take a step back and be a little less aggressive towards differing opinions, as it's not conducive to discussion.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I think the point 26 is trying to make is that people in the Bailey aren't really citizens. They are transient, often not locals. Often times they are displaced from elsewhere. There's no law to protect them, because they aren't citizens of the Outpost - they are people granted the privilege of being, honestly, meat shields.  Although out-right murder isn't tolerated in the Bailey, in practice, it's also not necessarily actively investigated in the way that it is for citizens of a state.

The only protection folks in the Bailey should expect is protection from an initial assault on the Outpost itself. And the nature of a bailey means that even that protection comes secondary to the protection of the actual outpost. The entire reason the Bailey was even built was to help prevent something that happened before from happening again by creating a killing field.

So no, people in the Bailey are not citizens. But yes, people have, by now, grew up there, and live there.

26 and cabbage, You're both right.

[evilcabbage]

I accept Venomz statement.

[26 dollars]

As for my facts, they rest partly in knowing the history of the clan and the direction it was being taken in, and partly in what I've gleaned myself and logic dictates. The former is based on hard fact, which you can still partly dig up in the clan boards if you're interested in knowing what came before you. The later is completely subjective, as everyone's opinion always is.

I went back 7 years into the clan boards before I got bored.  I didn't find what you're talking about.  More to the point:  so what?  Tuluk didn't have a gender-broken templarate years ago, and then it did.  And now it doesn't.  And there used to be a volcano in Allanak.  Then, there wasn't.  Mantis used to live in Luir's, and then they didn't.  And so on, and so forth.  Directions change, but intent to do a thing and doing a thing (like being correct) are not the same.

Speaking of change, there should be fresh, new Kuraci documentation, soon.  It was soon, right?  That'd be cool.

[Italis]

For the record, the purchase-Luirs-citizenship NPC was actually removed from the game given a new job a long, long time ago, because it did nothing.

[BleakOne]

I never thought I'd see the day when a chain-smoking crab is a source of wisdom to me.

I have seen the day.

[Ouroboros]

Tuluk didn't have a gender-broken templarate years ago, and then it did.  And now it doesn't.  And there used to be a volcano in Allanak.  Then, there wasn't.  Mantis used to live in Luir's, and then they didn't.  And so on, and so forth.  Directions change, but intent to do a thing and doing a thing (like being correct) are not the same.

The difference is, the changes you mentioned actually took place. The direction the Outpost was being taken in was left hanging mid-sentence for several years, with half the code in place, half promised to come, and more suggested at. Compounding the problem is that none of it was ever officially taken off the production slate, leading to conflicting views being easy to develop. The work on the Bailey that Italis mentioned is under development for example, was planned since the rebuilding and expansion of the Outpost was taking place. It's great to hear that's being looked at currently though and I'm eager to see it develop.

Speaking of change, there should be fresh, new Kuraci documentation, soon.  It was soon, right?  That'd be cool.

Agreed. And such documentation would go a long way in sharing what staff's current vision of Kurac and the Outpost actually is, so we're not left playing Sherlock and guessing at facts from hints and hunches. Or worse, aggressively feeling that only our view is right and refusing to actually participate in an open discussion in a constructive manner.

So no, people in the Bailey are not citizens. But yes, people have, by now, grew up there, and live there.

Agreed. The difference lies in the distinction between residents and citizens. The Outpost has non-Kuraci residents, in the Bailey. Their number might be small, but this number has also increased over time due to birthrate and certain events such as the Fall of Tuluk. How small it is compared to the relatively small population of the Outpost as a whole is anyone's guess. When you consider that residents exist, and you see that citizenship at least up until a point was available, it's really not hard to jump to a conclusion that a native population of citizens was the intended direction of the Outpost. Especially when the main distinction between residents and citizens lies in legal rights, which were being developed as part of the crimcode.

Whatever the case, I'm glad that Italis stepped forward in clarifying the matter and I'm more than willing to accept that my guess at the facts was wrong and other's guesses at the facts were right, given until now we had no confirmation from staff on what's actually true and what isn't.

[Eurynomos]

Also to clarify another misconception, there are no NPC's in either Allanak or Tuluk that can be paid to grant you citizenship. And as mentioned by Italis, the one that hung around Luir's has been altered as of earlier this year.

[Red Ranger]

I'd certainly have living quarters in the bailey. Give the Bailey a wild west feel. Keep only the guards at the gates, and at the gates of the outpost, and have no Kuraci NPCs patrolling the Bailey. Throw in more structures in the bailey to reflect the enviroment. Throw in NPCs to do the same. Basically, Rinth it up.

I'm good with this picture of the Outpost.

I'd love to see the "ecosystem" of the Bailey fleshed out more, and I'm excited to see that this is a current staff project. However, personally I would like to see the Bailey less like the Labyrinth and more like Deadwood or Mos Eisley. Both are dusty, seedy, and criminal but both still have The Law in their midst. It just so happens that The Law is fairly uninterested in anything but the most major stuff. Another example that's been in my mind ever since the Bailey went into the game is from A Song of Ice and Fire: the Fishmarket milieu that grew up in the narrow space between the Blackwater Rush and the walls of King's Landing.

Tyrion describes it below (from chapter 50 of aCoK):

Mounted, he gazed along the riverfront. Hammers rang in the morning air as carpenters swarmed over the Mud Gate, extending wooden hoardings from the battlements. Those were coming well. He was a deal less pleased by the clutter of ramshackle structures that had been allowed to grow up behind the quays, attaching themselves to the city walls like barnacles on the hull of a ship; bait shacks and pot-shops, warehouses, merchants' stalls, alehouses, the cribs where the cheaper sort of whores spread their legs. It has to go, every bit of it. As it was, Stannis would hardly need scaling ladders to storm the walls.
   He called Bronn to his side. "Assemble a hundred men and burn everything you see here between the water's edge and the city walls." He waved his stubby fingers, taking in all the waterfront squalor. "I want nothing left standing, do you understand?"
The black-haired sellsword turned his head, considering the task. "Them as own all this won't like that much."
"I never imagined they would. So be it; they'll have something else to curse the evil monkey demon for."
"Some may fight."
"See that they lose."
"What do we do with those that live here?"
"Let them have a reasonable time to remove their property, and then move them out. Try not to kill any of them, they're not the enemy. And no more rapes! Keep your men in line, damn it."

Just like a Kuraci would approach clearing out the Bailey in advance of hostilities!

Here's more spice for thought: what if a hardscrabble city elf trading clan established itself in the dingy, dusty bailey of Luir's, and what if that city elf clan were a branch of an Allanakki city elf clan... or vice versa?

[Ouroboros]

Also to clarify another misconception, there are no NPC's in either Allanak or Tuluk that can be paid to grant you citizenship. And as mentioned by Italis, the one that hung around Luir's has been altered as of earlier this year.

Appreciate the heads-up on that Eurynomos. I knew it wasn't "a long, long time ago" but I wasn't about to press the issue. If that's been taken care of though, it's one less bit of conflicting code floating around.

(lots of good ideas)

I agree with how you view the Bailey, it's definitely more how I've pictured it as well. Not sure on the city elves though, mostly because the Outpost tends to attract more desert elves, tribals and other nomads, than actual city folk. Especially regarding ones from the 'rinth, who seem far more likely to branch out to Red Storm than Luir's. That said.. Given the amount of Tuluki refugees the Outpost has received over the years, I suppose I could see something like that developed from Akai transients? Food for thought.

[Jherlen]

On the topic of Tuluki refugees, I wonder if that isn't a piece of documentation that needs to be updated too. During the Occupation and the Liberation and other times in Tuluk's tumultuous past, I can see refugees fleeing for Luir's, sure, but that's all more than a King's Age ago now. Would those people have moved on, gone home, or died by now? Keep in mind, since the Fall of Tuluk (where the helpfile for Luir's mentions the population swelling), Luir's itself has been taken over and subsequently reclaimed by mantis. Assumedly all those refugees would have either left or been eaten at that point.

So, have they come back and re-refuged? Given the recent turmoils in Tuluk, especially even recently, I could see people fleeing again. The question is just how welcoming Kurac would be, given Luir's is much much smaller to begin with and there's only so much room outside the walls. Could there be refugee camps popping up outside Luir's as the Bailey overflows? Maybe this is all food for thought as staff work on the coming updates!

[Ouroboros]

As a general rule, refugee populations that settle into new territory tend to increase in numbers over time, not decrease. Unless actively thrown out, killed, or persecuted of coruse, none of which has been the case with Kurac's handling of it so far. Over time such refugees become residents and adopt the land as their own, by whatever means possible. The relative protection of the Outpost's outer walls makes it a very attractive settlement for people looking to eke out a living, not much different than those struggling in the Warrens of Tuluk or the 'rinth of Allanak.

[Jherlen]

Right, but if you assume the "refugees" happened during events surrounding the Fall/Occupation/Liberation of Tuluk, that's before the mantis came in and kicked everyone out / ate them. The question is just, have there been any major refugee migrations since? I can't recall any, but only staff would know.

[Molten Heart]

More recently there may have been refugees from Allanak when the volcano popped up there at that time.

[Lizzie]

Right, but if you assume the "refugees" happened during events surrounding the Fall/Occupation/Liberation of Tuluk, that's before the mantis came in and kicked everyone out / ate them. The question is just, have there been any major refugee migrations since? I can't recall any, but only staff would know.

Not only staff would know - there was the (relatively) recent issue with Red Storm East, which had an impact on food in Allanak, which caused a bunch of refugees to head north. They went north mostly to Tuluk though, I don't recall whether or not any of them made Luir's anything more than a rest stop on the way.

It also stands to reason - that any people who -do- live in Luir's, are subject to the same temptations of the flesh as anyone who doesn't - and as such, it isn't out of the realm of possibility that there are residents having children, whose fathers were outsiders. And now - those children are being reared in Luir's or the Bailey - and will grow up as residents - if not citizens - of Luir's Outpost.

[HavokBlue]

Pretty sure there is/was a minor migration of southern refugees northward as a result of the volcano, and famine/riots Allanak experienced a couple years ago.

[Eyeball]

I don't see the bailey as a semi-lawless zone. Not with the inner wall manned and looking down into it.

[evilcabbage]

I don't see the bailey as a semi-lawless zone. Not with the inner wall manned and looking down into it.

A disturbance as a commoner attacks another.

Ten thousand crossbow bolts shoot BOTH of them.

"Yeahp... crime solved."

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I don't see the bailey as a semi-lawless zone. Not with the inner wall manned and looking down into it.

Lawless might not be the right word. It is under less protection that the actual Outpost. Beatings and such shouldn't merit any reaction at all. Only murder, or assault on visitors. At least, that is the way it was portrayed to me at the time I played in Kurac.

[Zoan]

Ohoho, I like this. The Hate Cycle has mutated into a mix of both 'city elves can't do no crime' and 'Luirs sucks' at the same time!

[HavokBlue]

Well, no, because this thread is a month old.

[KankWhisperer]

The masked frowning Kuraci sergeant exclaims "I AM THE LAW!" and turns his bone sword to full auto in response to petty crime.

[Zoan]

If I see the little thing next to it that says I haven't read it yet, it's new.

[26 dollars]

I was thinking that trolls were supposed to be on point with forum events, then I remembered ...  Oh yeah, they rez threads, too. 

[MeTekillot]

"people who disagree with me or like different things than me" =! trolls

[Gunnerblaster]

Eh. I've always viewed Luirs as a bugged out area that I just don't care to really play in anymore. The coding for the area is all fucked but it's justified to keep it that way via IC reasons, which always struck me as silly.

But there are some things you just can't fix - I had this conversation many times in the past, on the Kurac forums, and I've simply decided to just never join House Kurac, based out of Luirs.

I will tell everyone this, though - Nosave combat triggers for passing the gates of Luirs will potentially save your character's life. The Kuraci crim code currently targets on anyone who codedly "attacks", which is the attacker and then, when the defender counters, the defender as well.

So basically, nosave combat triggers set to trigger as you pass the Outpost gates and not attacking players within Luirs is the best way to avoid the infamous 1,000 NPC Insta-death triggers.

Edited to add:
Only bothered to respond to OP. Ignored all other posts so my own thoughts may or may not have anything to do with previous posts. Just randomly throwing out my 2 cents.

[Scarecrow]

I didn't know the guards at Luirs insta-gank both parties. Thanks for the heads up Gunnerblaster, if that happened to me I would be extremely annoyed.

[Kronibas]

I didn't know the guards at Luirs insta-gank both parties. Thanks for the heads up Gunnerblaster, if that happened to me I would be extremely annoyed.

There was a problem and more than one incident with Kuraci recruits attacking long lived PCs (heh, poor Captain Jak), but I thought this had been fixed a long time ago, in part by having a separate coded "clan" created for Kuraci military.

[Gunnerblaster]

There was a problem and more than one incident with Kuraci recruits attacking long lived PCs (heh, poor Captain Jak), but I thought this had been fixed a long time ago, in part by having a separate coded "clan" created for Kuraci military.

Unfortunately, that problem still exists but I can't really elaborate on the coded clan conflictions within Kurac.

I'm not saying don't join Kurac. I'm just saying to not join Kurac if you want to actually have any coded influence as military personnel until you're at the rank of Sergeant or higher.

[Scarecrow]

I can't speak for Kuraci stuff or organization, but in my opinion, the whole 'kill'em both and get the right one' response from Luirs guards needs to be changed, and as soon as possible. It's the sort of thing a suiciding, exploitative character might use to get someone else killed along with them. Plus it's just not realistic. I know we have magick, gith, hairless dwarves and whatnot, but still....guards should have a little more sense than that.
My two cents.

[Gunnerblaster]

I can't speak for Kuraci stuff or organization, but in my opinion, the whole 'kill'em both and get the right one' response from Luirs guards needs to be changed, and as soon as possible. It's the sort of thing a suiciding, exploitative character might use to get someone else killed along with them. Plus it's just not realistic. I know we have magick, gith, hairless dwarves and whatnot, but still....guards should have a little more sense than that.
My two cents.

I've been told by Staff, in the past, that is how they want Luir's to operate.

And, unfortunately, unless you're a "special" character in some sekrit plot, the Staff treats deaths in Luirs like any other normal death, even if suicidal players decides they want to charge and kill another player's character. Worse you can do is submit a player complaint but, by then, there's no real fixing what's happened.

Staff's position on how law and punishment is dealt in Luirs is relatively unchanging, so the only thing left to do is to operate around Luirs as carefully as possible, OOCly.

Said before and I'll say it again - Set a trigger to have nosave combat initiate whenever you're passing into Luirs. I would've saved one long-lived character, had I of taken the initiative, and I've already saved another character twice from instances where they would have normally of been insta-ganked.

[TheWanderer]

My characters are so special and my plots are so sekrit that Staff doesn't even know about them. I do not fear Death when in Luir's Outpost, Death fears me.

[Majikal]

My characters are so special and my plots are so sekrit that Staff doesn't even know about them. I do not fear Death when in Luir's Outpost, Death fears me.

Red Fang motto #3152

[evilcabbage]

My characters are so special and my plots are so sekrit that Staff doesn't even know about them. I do not fear Death when in Luir's Outpost, Death fears me.

Red Fang motto #3152

Isn't that how the Red Fangs got dead?

[Morrolan]

My characters are so special and my plots are so sekrit that Staff doesn't even know about them. I do not fear Death when in Luir's Outpost, Death fears me.

Red Fang motto #3152

Isn't that how the Red Fangs got dead?

Of course, we can assume that Kurac was not involved in the death of the Red Fangs. 

[Lizzie]

My characters are so special and my plots are so sekrit that Staff doesn't even know about them. I do not fear Death when in Luir's Outpost, Death fears me.

Red Fang motto #3152

Isn't that how the Red Fangs got dead?

Of course, we can assume that Kurac was not involved in the death of the Red Fangs. 

I wouldn't be so sure. >.>