Commoner Mating in Zalanthas (Monogamy or not and other topics)

[evilcabbage]

True mating is taking a club, beating your potential love over the head, dragging them into some cave in the wasteland and having hot desert sex.

[Lizzie]

That was my point, slymoontiger. So you agree with what I'm saying.

[slvrmoontiger]

No, Lizzie... I still think there is a big difference between calling someone a mate and a lover. The mere meaning of mate symbolizes some sort of bond beyond just sex.

[Lizzie]

No, Lizzie... I still think there is a big difference between calling someone a mate and a lover. The mere meaning of mate symbolizes some sort of bond beyond just sex.

No, really it doesn't. Not in Zalanthas, and not in the real world. You're arguing semantics about a word that has -many- meanings and -many- common connotations, both in and out of the game. Mate can be your true love one and only. It can also be the person you're fucking this month. It can also be your Kruth partner. It can also be another word for "clannie." It can also refer to your VBFF, and it can refer to your "friend with benefits." It is also an informal word of greeting to someone you barely know ("Hey there mate, how ya doin?"), or even a familiar, friendly term to refer to a complete stranger.

You're trying to limit a word and assign it a unique meaning, that traditionally, culturally, and conventionally does not have a unique meaning. It's like saying "the word "this" can only be used to refer to mammals, from now on, and not to inanimate objects."

[Fujikoma]

Assuming the sexes are equal in Zalanthas, the word slut should never turn up in conversation, unless one also uses the term slut for a man as well.

[Ouroboros]

So far it seems most of us, to varying degrees, are in agreement that having options is a good thing. We can agree that in Zalanthas everything goes, and there's a flavor for everyone. Furthermore, we seem to mostly agree on the fact that looking down on any form of relationship is undesired, so long as it adheres to the standards of documentation and racial bias. Some of us might feel there's a bit more of "this" in the world, others feel there's a bit more of "that". That's not an argument anyone can win though, if there is a victory to be had in it at all, unless a copy of the Zalanthan Census of 1629 comes floating down from staff in a beam of light. If recent events are any indication, we're more likely to get a volcano dropped on us in a beam of light than anything else. And that's as it should be, given documentation on the subject has been purposefully left open-ended.

Speaking personally, I could stand to see not necessarily less monogamous relationships in the game, but more polyamorous or social polygamous ones. Yes, it's been done. But if we're going to agree that there's just as much of one as there is of the other, than perhaps this discussion can serve as a reminder of that fact; something we can consider for our next character, when deciding which facet of Zalanthas we want to see represented by our PC. Either way, the virtual population thankfully takes care of our shortcomings and biases as players, and I tend to rest easy in the knowledge that for every PC couple I see merrily strolling down the street hand-in-hand, there's a virtual character somewhere enjoying themselves with a few guys and gals in bed.

What's interestingly enough come up, and this by the way is the reason such discussions are never a waste of time, is how we feel about the term "mate" in context to Zalanthan relationships. There seem to be two camps on this, one feeling the term is used too frivolously, while the other feels it's not used frivolously enough. My knee-jerk reaction to this is the same as Lizzie's a couple posts above me.

By definition, in the real world, the term mate can imply partner, companion, fellow, friend, pal, chum, etc. Part of the problem seems to be that we've each injected this word into Zalanthas by picking whichever definition we prefer, and expect others to adhere to it. The reasons for this are likely several, but my feeling is that the deepest reason for this is the fact some players have an innate desire to roleplay monogamous unions akin to marriage between commoners and, barred from this by documentation, have decided to use the term "mate" to come as close to their desired symbolism without breaking the rules. As Desertman stated many of us know what triggered the change of the marriage documentation and as a result, this discussion. And while those IG events (which should please remain IG) might have been the catalyst, or the last straw depending on how you look at it, it's nothing new either. Such skirting of the docs has occurred before and will always take place until the grey areas of a given issue become black and white.

I guess we have a few questions to ask ourselves, and staff, before we can find a solution to the problem:

1) Do we want a set term to define a particular type of relationship, which at best is no more predominant than any other type of relationship?
2) Do we want to structure that term with details of what it entails, as we might any other social term, or do we prefer to leave it open-ended?
3) If we do want to define such relationships, be it specifically or not, is the term "mate" what we want to use for it?
4) Is there even a place for something as akin to marriage between commoners, as some have taken the word "mate" to imply?

Coming to some measure of agreement or conclusion to the above questions would help ensure that misunderstandings don't take place, leaving some players feeling other's roleplay is unrealistic or flawed. Feelings can be as tumultuous as they like, but words carry meaning. We might want to leave Zalanthas open to any kind of relationship we can think of, but when we start applying labels to such on our own, without documentation support and especially when the words have other common meanings, conflict and misunderstandings occur.

[ShaLeah]

Assuming the sexes are equal in Zalanthas, the word slut should never turn up in conversation, unless one also uses the term slut for a man as well.

Tell that to the people who call whores sluts and use the term whore as if it were derogatory in a land where whoring is a perfectly acceptable and viable employment option.

4) Is there even a place for something as akin to marriage between commoners, as some have taken the word "mate" to imply?

No. No no no no no. There isn't. There shouldn't be ANYTHING akin to "marriage" as marriage is on Zalanthas for commoners.

Coming to some measure of agreement or conclusion to the above questions would help ensure that misunderstandings don't take place, leaving some players feeling other's roleplay is unrealistic or flawed. Feelings can be as tumultuous as they like, but words carry meaning. We might want to leave Zalanthas open to any kind of relationship we can think of, but when we start applying labels to such on our own, without documentation support and especially when the words have other common meanings, conflict and misunderstandings occur.

I play (and continue to play) all my characters with the following distinctions:

Lover - anyone she kanks on a regular basis.
Mate - anyone she kanks that she has feelings of devotion for that is supposedly mutual. Whether monogamous or not. Depending on the character, this one is likely to remain secret while the above is not at all.

I choose to think being someone's mate as it being NOT the norm on Zalanthas because in my experience through all these years the amount of THOSE my characters have encountered are more rare than diamonds used in actual jewelry IG. Lovers? Hell, you make anything with boobs you can get a lover in less than an hour played.

To -me-, that's rare.

[Drayab]

Mate implies some sort of intimate relationship, but it's not a term with a well-defined meaning. The word runs a whole gamut of meaning IG. At one end of the spectrum it means a no-strings-attached fuck buddy, and at the other end it may mean a monogamous relationship with a time commitment to spend long hours in private together. Lover is the other word that gets used. Yes, it is more often used to refer to the fuck buddy type arrangement, but I would warn against making assumptions unless you're looking for drama.

This makes sense when you think about it. IRL, we distinguish our intimate relationships according to how far we are from marriage: crush, girl/boy -friend, fiance, spouse. In a world where there is no formalized marriage to measure yourself against, the one you call mate has come to mean the person who is also into the sort of arrangement you prefer.

Simply put, you have to speak with your prospective partner to find out what kind of arrangement they're into.

[slvrmoontiger]

I play (and continue to play) all my characters with the following distinctions:

Lover - anyone she kanks on a regular basis.
Mate - anyone she kanks that she has feelings of devotion for that is supposedly mutual. Whether monogamous or not. Depending on the character, this one is likely to remain secret while the above is not at all.

I choose to think being someone's mate as it being NOT the norm on Zalanthas because in my experience through all these years the amount of THOSE my characters have encountered are more rare than diamonds used in actual jewelry IG. Lovers? Hell, you make anything with boobs you can get a lover in less than an hour played.

To -me-, that's rare.

I completely agree and use the terms the same IG with ever character. I'm not saying that must because I have feelings for one character that are feelings of love or bonding it means I can't have the same feelings for another. So yes mates can be polygamous. But mate is a more close relationship and as I have stated before means you have a bond. You can have a bond with one character or half a dozen... Or even a dozen if you like.... But its still a bond that you and the other character(s) share. If you are just kanking someone on a regular bases and all it is is about the the sex than that is a lover.

[Jingo]

From a sociological perspective, it wouldn't make sense to have cities as big and as Allanak without institutionalized marriage. There is a reason why virtually every culture has adopted the model before modern times.

But honestly, Tek doesn't make sense either. So just roll with it.

[evilcabbage]

From a sociological perspective, it wouldn't make sense to have cities as big and as Allanak without institutionalized marriage. There is a reason why virtually every culture has adopted the model before modern times.

But honestly, Tek doesn't make sense either. So just roll with it.

There is institutionalized marriage. For the nobility. The people in the city that -matter-.

[Nyr]

I'd like to shy away from making very specific blanket statements about what the typical Zalanthan will think about monogamy or mating.

Here's what I mean by that - 

A "general" blanket statement regarding monogamy: Many zalanthans do not find it practical to mate for life.
A "specific" blanket statement regarding monogamy: Many zalanthans do not find it practical to mate for life, because life is too harsh and cruel to love anyone that much, and everyone is invariably self-involved and bitter and downtrodden and focused only on their own survival, and people in zalanthas can't even be monogamous to their boots.

There's too many people in Zalanthas to be that specific. There's too many different stories to tell to be that specific. Besides, ruling out love as a storytelling device is like ruling out algebra from a mathbook - it's a pretty basic, fundamental element of stories about people and life.

I tend to agree with this.

[Nyr]

No, Lizzie... I still think there is a big difference between calling someone a mate and a lover. The mere meaning of mate symbolizes some sort of bond beyond just sex.

They're just words.  It's not necessarily the difference between "magicker" and "non-magicker."  I don't think a PC should have to call another PC their "mate" if they're exclusive anymore than a PC should have to call another PC their "lover" if they aren't exclusive.

[ShaLeah]

No, Lizzie... I still think there is a big difference between calling someone a mate and a lover. The mere meaning of mate symbolizes some sort of bond beyond just sex.

They're just words.  It's not necessarily the difference between "magicker" and "non-magicker."  I don't think a PC should have to call another PC their "mate" if they're exclusive anymore than a PC should have to call another PC their "lover" if they aren't exclusive.

mate1   [meyt]  Show IPA noun, verb, mat·ed, mat·ing.
noun
1. a partner in marriage; spouse.
2. one member of a pair of mated animals.
3. one of a pair: I can't find the mate to this glove.

Noble is just a word. Krathi is just a word. Marriage is just a word. Mindworm is just a word. Assassin is just a word.

Words have power. Some words have power on a 'global' scale, such as those above.

I think there seems to be a group of people who would prefer if there was a globally understood usage of the word mate in relation to exclusive (don't read monogamous/polyamorous) intimate and deep relationships involving PCs. I think they may feel that way because calling someone your mate on Zalanthas has become the equivalent of a union that is above casual.

This is the word of choice, like it or not.

I think the best course of action is to, instead of thinking another PCs definition of mate not being the same as yours, just accept that the word mate means the same globally and is defined solely by the people involved in that nucleus. You define your mate as what you like.

[Jherlen]

But honestly, Tek doesn't make sense either. So just roll with it.

YOU SHUT YOUR WHORE MOUTH.

[Nyr]

If one definition of mate:

a person's husband, wife, or other sexual partner.

can mean the same as the definition of lover

a person having a sexual or romantic relationship with someone, often outside marriage.

then I think they can be used for whatever makes sense at the time.  I don't really want to word-Nazi this so that people get strung up in-game for saying someone is a mate when they really meant they're a lover.

[ShaLeah]

If one definition of mate:

a person's husband, wife, or other sexual partner.

can mean the same as the definition of lover

a person having a sexual or romantic relationship with someone, often outside marriage.

then I think they can be used for whatever makes sense at the time.  I don't really want to word-Nazi this so that people get strung up in-game for saying someone is a mate when they really meant they're a lover.

Precisely my point.

I think the best course of action is to, instead of thinking another PCs definition of mate not being the same as yours, just accept that the word mate means the same globally and is defined solely by the people involved in that nucleus. You define your mate as what you like.

Because...

This is the word of choice, like it or not.

Most don't equate lover to the same emotional RISK as the word mate.

If we're not nazi'ing words then why would we care if they call them wife or husband?

[Wish]

Wife and husband are words you use to refer to people who are married, and you won't get married in Zalanthas unless you're a noble or a merchant house family member.

I don't really like the word mate, personally.  I've never used it to describe a long term romantic partnership with someone, and I probably never will.  However, I understand what people are saying when they say "this is my mate, Amos."  It's all about context.

[Barzalene]

What about partner(s)?

[Wish]

Partner is a little more ambiguous/neutral sounding, but I can usually figure that out too, especially if it's accompanied by an emote clasps %amos hand, smiling fondly at !amos

If my character is involved with someone, I usually just say lover.  It pretty plainly defines the relationship as romantic, but is it anyone's business how long or short term that relationship is going to be?  Probably not.

That's just me, though.  Everyone has different ways of defining what other people mean to them, and I think that's fine, because everyone's stories are different.

As long as a few simple guidelines are followed regarding anachronisms, I think the world chugs along pretty well without breaking the all important immershunz.

[Barzalene]

I hope I can say this in a way that makes sense.
The thing about lovers or sex is that sex is easy. But long term stability, maybe even after the sex is no longer the compelling facet is rare. Lover conveys the sex, but not the other stuff.

[Kaineus]

What about partner(s)?

I like the vagueness of 'partner' but agree the connotations are stiff. Lover also has the benefit of being vague, but I always think of that SNL/Will Farrel skit where they always call each other 'lover'.

I always wish I could use the word habibi/habibati, used by millions of people here on earth, but I think the connotations/origin would be jarring to players. But it's a beautiful word and serves as a catchall for friend/lover/boyfriend/girlfriend/husband/wife.

[Drayab]

Actually, I think 'mate' is more ambiguous than 'partner' in terms of how the words are used IG. You need to realize that they way that 'mate' is used IG is not the Merriam-Webster definition. It's related, but specific to this game.

I think using 'partner' to refer to what is normally referred to as 'mate' or 'lover' will only succeed in confusing people. In my experience, when somebody talks about their 'partner,' they mean a business partner of some kind.

[RogueGunslinger]

I go all Aussie and call my clannies and good friends mates, and sometimes random people I don't know too. So I'm all for that word NOT being used specifically to mean something relating to relationships.

[BleakOne]

I always thought the 'lover' implied more... eh... love, than 'mate'. Unless 'mate' has 'soul' before it is doesn't really have much emotional meaning, imho.