Commoner Mating in Zalanthas (Monogamy or not and other topics)

[Taven]

[...]

With regards to commoners though, I don't think there's a place for it at all in Zalanthas. Personally I feel most "mated" situations are already often pushing the borders of what's acceptable, simply because we bring our real-life experiences into it. Concepts of monogamy in general push the boundaries of documentation and the entire flavor of Zalanthas. In a world of murder, corruption and betrayal, love has very little breathing room. What "mate" should imply, but often doesn't, is simply, "This is who I find it advantageous to have sex with right now, and I care about them to the extent that I care about my own self-preservation and interests." I would argue that monogamy itself between "mates" isn't even necessary, and should only be adhered to if one of the two raises a big enough stink about it. And even then, the party raising the stink should be aware of how unusual their feelings are in relation to the rest of the world. Even couples that have children wouldn't need to necessarily remain monogamous, unless either or both parties couldn't financially sustain more mates or children. Tribes are the only exception to this in some regards, because as with most things, they have their own traditions and ways of handling social situations and each one is different. The tribal docs have dealt with this well I think though, and serve their purpose.

[...]

I think we really need a separate thread for what is and isn't normal for mating in Zalanthas.

What's wrong with monogamy in-game? If you think about it, Zalanthas sex isn't clean. Mul mix might prevent pregnancy, but it doesn't prevent STDs. Also, in a world where everyone can kill you by getting you alone into private places, which you do to kank... Sleeping with just one person really isn't so crazy.

Love is perfectly possible in Zalanthas, as well. Maybe you'll get stabbed in the back and die to horrific betrayal because you were fooled, but maybe your partner actually feels the same way, and does have strong feelings for you. In my opinion, the people a PC loves are one of the reasons they might be motivated TO murder others, corrupt others, or betray others.

To my knowledge, there aren't any docs on what a "normal" attitude for a Zalanthian to have about sex is at the purely commoner level. It's open to interpretation.

[Zoltan]

I think love exists in Zalanthas. I think just about any "mating" arrangement is valid (excluding marriage for commoners, which I think should be the province of upper society for reasons already outlined in the other thread). The way I've always taken it, and played it myself, is that there is no "normal" or majority-accepted way for these things to play out. I've had monogamous types, those that kanked but a small circle of good friends, and those that kanked anything that moved. I think it's fair for someone in a sexual relationship to want to keep it monogamous, and it's fair to... not.

I just want to say again that I disagree with the idea that Zalanthas is just too "harsh" for love to develop between people. Who better to face the terrible world with than with your beloved partner(s)? Of course, they may betray your love, and turn on you, etc, etc. Welcome to Armageddon? Like Taven said, love can be a hell of a motivator.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Oh yeah.  There's love. We know why Allanak is named Allanak. Love is an emotion even animals feel in our world. Zalanthas is full of reasons not to love, but there will always be reasons a special somebody cracks your cold dry heart.

[Wish]

I'd like to shy away from making very specific blanket statements about what the typical Zalanthan will think about monogamy or mating.

Here's what I mean by that - 

A "general" blanket statement regarding monogamy: Many zalanthans do not find it practical to mate for life.
A "specific" blanket statement regarding monogamy: Many zalanthans do not find it practical to mate for life, because life is too harsh and cruel to love anyone that much, and everyone is invariably self-involved and bitter and downtrodden and focused only on their own survival, and people in zalanthas can't even be monogamous to their boots.

There's too many people in Zalanthas to be that specific. There's too many different stories to tell to be that specific. Besides, ruling out love as a storytelling device is like ruling out algebra from a mathbook - it's a pretty basic, fundamental element of stories about people and life.

[MeTekillot]

how can you be monogamous when there are only two to three layers of fabric separating your genitals from that cute stranger at the bar?

[Jherlen]

how can you be monogamous when there are only two to three layers of fabric separating your genitals from that cute stranger at the bar?

Well that's true in real life too, and some people somehow manage.

[a french mans shirt]

Must I go into the game and make a love story so twisted and horrible that no one will ever think twice about questioning love's place in Armageddon ever again?

Yeah, no. No, I'm not close to that good. I was just saying, you know? Actually, I think I did that once. Made a pretty messed-up shit that was based on mate-love. Just not in a way that everyone would catch.

[Drayab]

Love is quite a good motivator for all three of murder, corruption, and betrayal.

Zalanthas has a deliciously unique take on marriage, if you can even call it that, but this in no way is meant to imply that love doesn't have a role to play in a harsh world. Sorry, this just reminds me of one of my favorite poems.

Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I've tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice

[Dresan]

Zalanthians are able to feel a wide range of emotions including jealousy, greed, envy and yes even love. They can feel empathy and even sypathize.  Every once in a while I feel there is this push to make zalanthians into these unfeeling sociopaths. The world is harsh and survival tough but people still manage to live their merger lives. Besides, the game can only take so many brooding cold people in corners who never want to talk, socialize or interact in any way before it becomes kinda dull to play.  

As for mating and mates, I think people have been doing it right so far. In so much that it is no ones business what you and your partner have agreed upon in terms of your relationship. Some people are more greedy, cautious and/or possessive so monogomy might work for them while other might just not want to see their loving stinking of breed or elf sweat but everyone else plus oxen are fine. Every character is different and every relationship can be very different too in game as well. There shouldn't be one right way or common way to do it because frankly no one should give a damn.

Lastly while its true there is no formal recognition for mates but there are plenty of informal ones in the game. I've found that different clans in the game have different ways of providing benefits to the families of some of their higher ranking members.   Even if it is informal, being someone's mate or even lover is still recognized by people in the game for better or for worse. For example if you want to send a message to that person, guess who's head you have them find when they come home to their apartment, yup their lover or their mates. Again thats not a bad thing, since relationships, mates and all the emotions that go on inbetween just adds more depth to characters and makes the game all the more enjoyable.

[valeria]

I feel no need to have any sort of formalization of relationships between regular commoners.  Commoners already formalize their relationship to whatever extent is appropriate (we have this apartment, I don't sleep with other people but she needs to and I love her so I let her, I haven't seen him in a while so it's time to fuck around again, etc).  I don't think that monogamy is either appropriate or inappropriate... I think it's IC for your character or not.

Certain clans have more specific docs about how their group views relationships.  If there isn't a specific doc, then I think you're free to do what you want.

[slvrmoontiger]

I think the documentation is pretty open for this. I don't think there needs to be any formalization. I think whatever you and whoever you plan on being your mate think to formalize your mating is completely up to you. However, it should not be something recognized in any way by the government.

Now having said that the following points should be adhered to:

1) Humans should never pick a sharp, breed, or stump as a mate. Come on people this is just simply gross for everyone.
2) Sharps surely won't mate outside their race or even their 'tribe'.
3) Dwarfs shouldn't be coming onto humans. I actually saw a posting somewhere saying they were, YIKES. No one wants muls running around.
4) Breeds and muls hate themselves so much I don't see them ever doing anything but kanking if they can even tolerate another for long enough to do that.

[Wish]

What's your take on desert elf/gith couples? Yes? No? How about half giants and half elves? I mean they're both half of something.

[Ouroboros]

I think the first thing that should be clarified in this discussion should be the meaning of monogamy in how we're using it. Monogamy is usually used to imply marital monogamy, as opposed to polygamy, but that definition is worthless to us in this discussion from the moment that Zalanthas has no concept of marriage between commoners. What remains are the concepts of social and sexual monogamy. The later refers to two partners remaining sexually exclusive with each other, the opposite of polyamory, while the former includes sexual exclusivity and tacks on to it cohabitation and cooperation in life's basic resources (shelter, food, and money).

Between sexual and social monogamy, I feel sexual monogamy has very little to offer to most Zalanthans. Sex isn't clean, no, but neither is your average commoner and the possible chance of crotchrot wouldn't stop a whore's business unless that person was already socially attractive enough to have their pick of partners whenever they wished. I would also argue the negative aspects of kanking in private, those that would end up in death, are somewhat more an OOC concern than an IC one. Knowing the limitations of crimcode flagging and a closed door has no place this discussion, and I feel those aspects weigh far more heavily on our decisions as players to to maintain our characters sexually monogamous than IC factors do.

By the same token, Zalanthans have a lot more reasons to remain polyamorous than we do IRL, most notably because there is virtually no social stigma attached to such as there is in many "civilized" cultures today. By taking a look at the percentages of single, sexually-active individuals, as well as infidelity rates, one often arrives at the conclusion that most folk would be a lot more likely to have multiple partners than a single one, if society didn't frown on it as much as it does. Variety is the spice of life, after all. Are there still possible reasons for someone to remain sexually monogamous? Certainly. They're just a lot more rare than we often play out in the game in my opinion, and often would have very little to do with the reasons we choose to remain faithful. Maybe all those f-me's have the right idea, eh?

A far better case can be made for social monogamy, due to the advantages it can offer to both partners towards their long-term survival. In these cases two individuals are not just sexually exclusive but also live together and work together towards their mutual survival. But those mostly depend on comparing that scenario with one of living and working alone, regardless of sexual partners. In such instances, sure, two are better than one. But three are better than two as well, four even more, etc. So I'd personally arrive at the conclusion that while social monogamy can be more beneficial than a solitary lifestyle, social polygamy would be even more beneficial and logical to occur.

Where does love fit into all this? Anywhere it likes, the heart wants what the heart wants after all. My original statement wasn't meant to imply that there is no place for love in Zalanthas. I do feel that there is less of a place for it there than there is in our culture however, if for no other reason than that survival tends to trump all other emotions in most cases. I think someone would have to feel somewhat safe from the world in order to let such emotions flourish towards another person, and at least much of the virtual population doesn't seem to have the luxury. But I'm willing to concede it to our PCs because, as I've stated before, most of our commoners are far from common. Compared to the virtual population our PCs are often better, stronger, faster, richer, and in some cases smarter as well (though I wouldn't bet on the last one too much, given their average life-span). So sure, let's assume that love is as freely shared between our PCs in Zalanthans, as it would be at a Woodstock concert.

What I would argue however is that love and monogamy being mutually exclusive is an entirely OOC concept that could well be foreign to Zalanthas. You can see examples of this even in unfaithful RL couples, who often find themselves loving both their partner as well as the one they're cheating with. Imagine a culture without such stigma, fully sexually free, and it's not hard to consider that someone might love many of their partners at any given time. As such, I would argue that while love might have a place in Zalanthas, it doesn't necessarily have one in this discussion.

These are my own views though, and not necessarily yours. So long as relationships conform to the standards of documentation, what happens behind closed doors concerns only those individuals. And the sneaks hidden and stuck in the room. And the poor staff members that have to watch. The point of this discussion, at least to me, isn't to limit player's choices. It's to expand them past the limitations and social stigma we face in real life, so that our characters are free to make decisions based on the entirety of choices available to them.

[Barzalene]

I agree that love is an huge story hook. I don't think anyone is trying to take it out of Arm.
I agree that there is no reason to limit the way people express, draw, or manufacture their style of love. And if people are pairing off and it's giving them a reason to look forward to logging in, well yay!

I think where discussion breaks down is when you have people on one side who think they need a way to have their love recognized in some formal way. This is MY MATE! How nice for you! Or people who think that their relationship is less valid if it's not in some traditional and recognized arrangement. And if they want to play a traditional love affair that's good. If they want to impose that sort of affair on the game world, that's well, bad. (Sorry. Hope I'm making some sense.)

My personal preference (which I would inflict on you as the arbiter of all that is good, and will as soon as you all recognize my authority, but which I'm simply stating as opinion at this time) would be for the term mate to be more meaningful. It seems like two people manage to luck into someone willing to mudsex each other, and they fall into bed, or a booth or a dark alley and then they're mates. It renders the word meaningless. I would like if mating were taken more seriously. But I suppose this too is a reflection of real life and those Vegas chapels do a steady business.

[boog]

I can say I've never had a relationship in game that wasn't thematically appropriate.

I think we're, collectively, doing it right. We rule, guys.

[BuNutzCola]

Whatever makes you guys happy.

I've seen the gamut of relationships in my time here, and really only rarely do I go "Dafuq?" And mostly those involve magicker and non magickers doing nothing to hide their amorous endeavors.

I think relationships can be a phenomenal story hook. Mudsex and the like never appealed to me much but really powerful storylines can come from "love." For some PC's it might be a process years in development, with its high points and lows, allowing for numerous story arcs to branch out. Betrayal, revenge, hero complexes, all manner of phenomenal things can come from Zalanathan love.

For others -shrug-, love might just "oh that pc has boobs/muscles/both". Maybe it's sexual, or intellectual, or borne out of a mutually beneficial arrangement.

I tend to find I get the most enjoyment out of complex relationships between pc's, or those that evolve organically.  I've done the "love at first sight" pc and the "you spent the last ten years at my side and I only just now realize we should get together." Pc's.

Ultimately Armageddon is about relationships,  I feel. Love, hate, comradery, treachery. However you choose to seek out those relationships is fine in my book.

[Patuk]

I sometimes note immense soap opera arcs happening over who happens to be banging who and how angry everyone ends up getting over it.

As long as you're not stepping into anachronistic territory like that, I'd say you're in the clear.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Just for the record, iirc ... it's perfectly possible for a half-elf to be the result of a loving elven-human relationship. The fate a breed suffers is not exclusively that it is a result of a rape or that there is hate from it's parents. It's the hate the rest of the world heaps on it.

Elven/human relationships are like magicker/mundane relationships. If you aren't hiding it, expect to be scorned/outcast/killed over it. But don't think that elven/human relationships are against docs. Imho, it's not.

[boog]

I sometimes note immense soap opera arcs happening over who happens to be banging who and how angry everyone ends up getting over it.

As long as you're not stepping into anachronistic territory like that, I'd say you're in the clear.

wanna be my baby daddy lol
omg u stole my m8

--

Seriously. I must miss all of this, because I've never seen it, nor even second-handedly experienced or heard gossip about something of this/that nature!

[Cabooze]

I noticed that whenever I try to involve my characters in any sort of mating/(sometimes non)monogamous relationship, it causes nothing but drama and makes it a chore to even get on and roleplay. It's unfortunate, really.. And irritating. Very irritating.

[Patuk]

I sometimes note immense soap opera arcs happening over who happens to be banging who and how angry everyone ends up getting over it.

As long as you're not stepping into anachronistic territory like that, I'd say you're in the clear.

wanna be my baby daddy lol
omg u stole my m8

--

Seriously. I must miss all of this, because I've never seen it, nor even second-handedly experienced or heard gossip about something of this/that nature!

I noticed that whenever I try to involve my characters in any sort of mating/(sometimes non)monogamous relationship, it causes nothing but drama and makes it a chore to even get on and roleplay. It's unfortunate, really.. And irritating. Very irritating.

I think Cabooze has answered your post better than I could.

[boog]

I swear, I've only ever heard of craziness on the GDB.

I guess I am thankful that my IG relationships have been IG, and IG only and fully lacking in teh dramaz.

But, back on topic, I kinda agree with 7DV. I mean - there's tons of taboos in the world. I mean, outrightly, sure, it's disgusting and socially unacceptable for races to bonk and procreate, but they do!

Just, y'know... expect repercussions!

[janeshephard]

I swear, I've only ever heard of craziness on the GDB.

You're lucky. This drama also goes on even if you're not having mudsex. I've been hit on a lot in game and sometimes it's a drag because you want to play in this cool dying world but buddy boy just wants to emote dirty things to you.

[ShaLeah]

No one is saying there is no love on Zalanthas. On the contrary, I think there should be love in a world where just stepping out of your cave can kill you without a moment's notice.

I don't mind the term 'mate' for the one (or three) person(s) you decide to be monogamous with. THAT is an indicator for excellent drama potential. It in itself is very rare and should be rare on Zalanthas because in essence that means this person (these people) matter to me as much as I matter to me. I will kill, betray, corrupt for them, I will avenge their deaths, I will hold grudges for them and I will ensure above anything that our mating nucleus is protected at all time inside the fuck-with-my-mate-I'll-kill circle.

What I would argue however is that love and monogamy being mutually exclusive is an entirely OOC concept that could well be foreign to Zalanthas.

I agree with this, though I wouldn't call it foreign as much as extremely rare. I feel like adjusting to a Zalanthan way of thinking is hard when it's so opposite of how we feel in real life. You can't argue that you're 100% in the Zalanthan mindset if you're falling in love with a whore and wanting her to quit her job to only be with you because it grosses you out that she's kanking everyone with fiddy sid, in this case a noble has that power by making her a concubine. You can't say you're 100% deep in the game world if you're telling the woman you wanna fuck/are fucking that she's not allowed to fuck anyone else while with you, unless you know that person you want her not to kank is kanking filthy magickers or other undesirables. You can't say you gave a fuck about that mate that just died when you're shacked up with someone a big ole two (ooc) days later, that was just a roommate with benefits, everyone knows it, stop saying you loved them sooooooooooo much.

Some situations just reek of happening as a result of real life mindset, not Zalanthan mindset.

My personal preference (which I would inflict on you as the arbiter of all that is good, and will as soon as you all recognize my authority, but which I'm simply stating as opinion at this time) would be for the term mate to be more meaningful. It seems like two people manage to luck into someone willing to mudsex each other, and they fall into bed, or a booth or a dark alley and then they're mates. It renders the word meaningless. I would like if mating were taken more seriously.

I love you Barz, be my mate.
Mate is used wrong in game and maybe that is why it's not really taken seriously. You know how many 'mated' have been in my char's apartment telling me how they really shouldn't? Hah.  You know how many chars have specifically asked my characters to steer clear of their mates even with zero interest from my character? How many have told my character they're not usually possessive but are (suckers!) to my wenches? I can't even tell you how many over the years. Same story, every time.

I noticed that whenever I try to involve my characters in any sort of mating/(sometimes non)monogamous relationship, it causes nothing but drama and makes it a chore to even get on and roleplay. It's unfortunate, really.. And irritating. Very irritating.

As a player of mostly vixens that will use that shit against you, I thank you. People who (think) they don't want the drama are the one's who need it the most or are a magnet for it! What causes drama? Giving a fuck about what's happening.


I'm not saying monogamy shouldn't happen, I'm saying to ask yourself: Is this happening because of how I feel or because the character is feeling strongly enough MUTUALLY with this character to warrant wanting to protect and cherish it for life.

By far I think we're doing okay. People playing for a longer amount of time don't seem to fall too much into the complete real world mirroring.  I know I had a hard time especially with the concept of relationship versus monogamy. I've learned to let the character develop and deal with the IC consequences. Sometimes they (we the characters) THINK they know what they want and then find themselves knee deep in it saying 'Meh, coulda done without this shit.'

Ultimately Armageddon is about relationships,  I feel. Love, hate, comradery, treachery. However you choose to seek out those relationships is fine in my book.

Like.

I can say I've never had a relationship in game that wasn't thematically appropriate.

I actually have, twice - both are noted on my accounts. One was a really broken fucked up girl who needed to be loved by anyone, kanked a dwarf - the other? The other (which was wayyyyyyyyyy worse in wrongness) resulted on a note on my account about it, an erroneous note since it wasn't as deep as what they noted yet it's permanently marring my reputation.

That's another discussion entirely.

Whatever makes you guys your character happy.

Is how it should be, remembering there are consequences to your decisions. It's a good idea to write in your background that your d-elf has a fetish for dwarves/humans/mantis/city elves or your human's got sand-fever for anything not human. That way when they see you buying an apartment with one the Imms won't be like wtf?!?

One thing for sure though, kiddies, if your character falls in love for real, gets real feelings, there will be drama. Welcome to the magickal world of feelings.

[Dresan]

Well said,  Ouroboros but I disagree with you on the social polygamy.

The whole purpose of monogamy is to ensure the survival of the off spring. Contrary to popular opinion this benefits men as much as it does women. Historically women have benefited from this arrangement since a man would go off hunting and bring home resources for her and her child, however I recently read an article stating how monogamy benefits man as much since it is easier to protect a single woman from other competing men, rather than several women. There was more to it then that but it also ensures their offspring survive into adult hood, giving both their genes the best chance of continuing on into the future. In the case of social polygamy this benefits the weak. Why would a woman who has only one child want to put in her resources raising three other children and their mother when she could just as easily invest it in her own child. Equally, no reason for a man to invest his resources in children that aren't his either. Not to say people don't adopt or even buy children to raise in Zalanthas, however just like in RL there is a big difference between choosing to raise a child that isn't yours and being tricked into raising one I suppose. In terms of social safety net knowing you can depend on one strong person when things are bleak might be a lot better then several people who might have not been providing as much as you anyways to begin with. If you raise a good strong family though that will ensure a greater social safety net, the great merchant houses are examples what strong families can accomplish. Not to say polygamist groups shouldn't exist or don't have their own benefits but just that I don't see them being anymore common then monogamist relationships in my opinion. Even if it is only because finding one person to trust is tough enough but finding more strangers to trust at that level would be quite the accomplishment indeed.

I think someone else said it better then me, there is a huge difference between a lover and a mate.

Heck to me even lover is a strong word, most 'relationship' are more aptly described as one-night stands or fuck buddies at best. From what I've seen most people in the game only have one mate, it is social monogamy however there is still sexual freedom in the relationship. I suppose this works out well in Zalanthas due to mul mix, the female/ male too (?) taking mulmix for everyone except her mate. Your mate is the person you trust, have children with and share all your resources with, your lovers/fuck buddies are the people who have quickies with in allies or somewhere discrete or even share with your mate when you are both feeling frisky. On a side note, this sort of relationship is a lot closer to what RL swingers are like. If you ever see a documentary on swingers to them there is a big difference between who they call their husband/wives and who they are fucking for fun. Again this is just what I've commonly seen people do in game, rather then just pure social and sexual monogamy again I don't believe there is any right or wrong way to proceed with a relationship. Whatever way your character and you partner(s) choose to proceed is fine in my books, again I agree with everyone here there should be no formalization of relationships. There is no right way or appropriate way to engage in an intimate relationship with someone.

Again having mates is still an informal thing in the game, as in you can't go to nenyuk and request a joint bank account or inherit your mate's account. You can't tell the templar you won't be saying anything bad about your mate without being tosses in the arena yourself. Organizations don't officially recognize you. However informally they do, as in the Templar would probably expect you to lie for your mate and if the sergeant of militia tells you that someone is their mate, well you can expect they will kick your teeth in and/or gut you if you piss their mate off. You don't have have to recognize or acknowledge their relationship but you are probably doing so at your own risk.

Lastly there so long as people remember its just a game where both sexes are free to act as they please, there is nothing wrong with some drama once in a while.