Tuluk's Shadow Artists: Now With More Flavor

[Outrider]

That it would be dealt with would be little comfort to the player of the burg smooshed by said templar.  It is a risk that can be controlled for by licensed thiefses already by, well, choosing who they offer their services to.   By hiding behind the right noble's skirts so that you're at least a little protected from taking a direct order from a templar to screw over your employer.

I don't know.   Keep writing, though.  I'm enjoying reading the ideas.   

[Quirk]

The mandate I dislike the most is the one that "shadow artists" must accept all jobs given to them.  I mentioned the reason why previously in this thread, though it wasn't among your quotes:

I've posted a bit on this already. I'm pretty certain that the mandate can be kept without being painful.

To recap my reasoning: there will need to be solutions in place to ensure

• contracts that cannot be completed for OOC reasons can be backed out of gracefully
• contracts do not end up hanging round for undefinedly large periods of time

If you receive a contract to kill your character's favourite bard, you could delay the kill indefinitely unless there is some kind of time limit acting on you. Policing that time limit strictly with Serious Consequences is going to screw over the class of people who find out after some time that they can't complete contracts for OOC reasons.

The solution has to be that a time limit exists to make your hit in, and exceeding that time limit results in some reprimand that isn't ruinous.

Once such a solution exists, though, we effectively have a right of refusal, but refusal costs you a failure - a blot on your record, potentially a fine. And in some ways I think this is a good thing. Refusing a contract isn't something you do lightly in these circumstances. It costs you.

[Delirium]

There is also the scenario which happens all-to-often to be considered:

Amos pisses off Malik. Malik takes a hit out on Amos with Shadow Artist JimBob. Amos goes out hunting and dies to gizhat #2342 and nobody finds the body, OR, Amos gets sidetracked by Real Life and doesn't log in for 3 months. Shadow Artist JimBob can't track down that damned Amos....

What now?

[hyzhenhok]

Not seeing that new source of fun and conflict, though.   I see a greater chance to be someone else's pawn - at absolutely no risk to anyone but the pawn.   At least if some semblance of free-agent artistry exists, then you can negotiate price.  If the price isn't good enough, then no go.  As it is, what's to stop the templar from sending this up and coming Journeyman Shartist (who just happens to be working as a leg-waxer for a House he's not too keen on) for making him take on "Break into Fort Knox and pee on the wall" mandatory job for, oh, 200 'sid.  That's the fair price because, well, screw it. . you're an agent of the city.  Suck it up or you won't get your BrownieBadge tattoo and I'll kill you.

Nyr has already said they will make sure contracts are priced reasonably. That's the staff's job, and it's a little unfair to assume that things will be priced so ridiculously low that nobody can actually profit from the system. Obviously staff will have to monitor the system and tweak prices to maintain the careful balance of services not being too expensive and giving enough profit. Odds are a couple of days spent digging clay will not be enough to pay for a hit on your rival clay-scooper.

And no, the sartist doesn't have much risk to himself at all. That's the whole point of the system: if the sartist is caught, he has a get-out-of-jail-free tattoo. He still gets paid half even if he fails the job. Dangerous jobs where the sartist's life is at risk will obviously pay much higher. Killing a sartist you caught in your estate rather than returning him unharmed to the templarate will probably lead to the templarate's displeasure.

The premise that licensed artists are doing anything "willy nilly" is not one I agree with. .  nor is there any Get Out of Consequence Free card played just because you have inks.  

I don't agree, but if you think so, then the loss of freedom for Tuluki sartists should be negligible, shouldn't it? If you're good enough to get away with over-stealing and overly violent, non-subtle acts of crime or doing other stuff the current system frowns upon, you're good enough to break the rules of the new system and get away with it. If you aren't doing that, then you aren't losing anything.

[Outrider]

You got me there, hyz.    I shall endeavor to be more fair and assume that the pawn in play doesn't have much risk to himself at all, that the templars will fairly lavish coin and favor down upon this newly minted and beloved Master Thief who will be honored for his (or her) ability to break into your apartment (but in a totally not 'over' stealing or unsubtle way).

I guess it's the loss of freedom that I'd chaff at.  Not freedom as a PC but freedom as a player.  The system, the documentation dictates my actions.   And, I know, there's nothing that said I would have to be licensed.     

I actually like most of the impending changes . . . and I love the attention being given to sneaky types in this thread almost as much as I like saying the word Shartist out loud.

[Taven]

Official beta docs on what, ascension?  Basically a certain amount of quality and quantity (you do good work and you do needed work and you will rise in rank).  Does that need to be spelled out with examples on what's quality work and what is not?  We can do that, sure.  It won't be exactly comparable to bards though because bards have their little nitpicky sort of things like "dance with a shoe on your head in a competition on a Detal" (not exactly, but you get my point), and artists wouldn't have provisions like "lol gotta kill my first Chosen Lurd so i can be a master".

Guidelines or documentation on rank advancement, yes please! Specifically, I'd be happy if you could answer the following two questions:

1. Do you have to seek advancement to Master, or is it something that will happen eventually anyway?
2. What are the guidelines for refusing advancement to Master, if it is something that will happen to you eventually no matter what?

These are both very important, not only for Shadow Artists, but for their employers and patrons. You probably don't want that Journeyman assassin becoming a Master even if they don't want to, that would suck.

I am also curious on how subjective the rank advancement is and also who does the promoting? Is it a staff verdict, or is it based on PC Templar decisions? I get that you can't say "do x, y, and z" for rank advancement, but some loose or general guidelines could be helpful.

I'm just bringing this up again since it got overlooked and hasn't been answered yet. If it's still being decided, then that is okay, I would just like to know as much.

Thoughts on everything else when I've had a chance to catch up properly.

[Dar]

I dont think making an artist who refused to be master incapable of ever getting it again is a good idea.

Odds are, becoming a master will have this type of path; A person becomes a partisan to a Noble. The noble helps the partisan go up in skill, prestige, and experience. The Noble dies, the partisan having nobody to be loyal to, except the city now, chooses to persue Master.

[Vanderhuge]

I've read through most of this thread (and all of the Beta docs), and if I keep reading I'll never get around to responding, so forgive me if I overlap a little with the last 4 pages.  So far I haven't seen anyone approach this from the systemic interaction / game design angle, so hopefully this will not be tiring to read in spite of the length.


Idea: Thieves and Assassins will now be part of the same group.
Desired Effect: Not 100% sure, but I would guess it is to combine all legalized crime into a single set of rules for clarity and improved awareness of them.
Problems:

• This is confusing for the people playing these roles.  People who steal things are not necessarily people who kill as a profession and vice versa.
• Trying to put both of these under the same rules isn't streamlining, it makes it harder to find the information that applies to you.

Suggested Alternative: Create separate docs for Thieves and Assassins, but retain the parts that overlap, like the FAQ.


Idea: Thieves and Assassins will now be called "Shadow Artists"
Desired Effect: Establishing a common, documented name for these things IG.
Problems:

• This is confusing for people trying to hire an artist.  Thieves and Assassins aren't anywhere near similar enough to have the same name.
• The name doesn't make sense, given that part of the new things the docs include in "Shadow Artistry" are public violence, public embarrassment, and getting caught (and dragged through public)
• Tuluk is supposed to be subtle, per the role playing doc.  Calling someone a "Shadow Artist" is less subtle than calling taxes "revenue enhancement".

Suggested Alternative: Have separate, different names for them.  Personally, I'd call assassins "Caretakers" and thieves "Tutors" based on their jobs, but the best idea would be to poll the playerbase for new (separate) names.


Idea: Shadow Artists must do anything they're contracted to do, including being captured.
Desired Effect: Increased usage of legalized criminals, more RP and interaction, et cetera et cetera.
Problems:

• Some of the things allowed in this system are in keeping with Allanaki culture, not Tuluki culture, and it will damage player perception of Tuluki RP the more it is used.  Admittedly, Tuluki RP still doesn't match the way the docs say it should be, but this will make things worse.
• Tuluk is supposed to be a "civilized" place where even the criminals specialize to perform their acts skillfully, tastefully, in accord with the law, and out of the public eye.  Now they're filling a role bards were meant to fill in regards to being a way for nobles to publicly embarrass each other.  The only bard / prospective bard I've ever seen agitate a noble in public was a former character of mine.
• This will just encourage people to be criminals off-the-grid, resulting in less participation in the supply side of this system.

Suggested Alternative:

• Allow Shadow Artists to refuse any contract that requires them to commit self-harm or actions that would endanger themselves beyond what is necessary for the criminal act.  This doesn't mean the artist can say "Oh, well killing someone with bodyguards is dangerous" because bodyguards aren't a problem introduced by contract stipulations.  It does, however, mean an artist can refuse to kill a noble in a public place while in plain sight and dressed like a 'Nakki templar.
• Limit contracts to things that are done stealthily, in keeping with Tuluk's culture of the dirt staying under the rug.
• Encourage bards to be bardier.

Idea: Shadow Artists cannot refuse any contract without penalty
Desired Effect: Increased usage of legalized criminals and keeping people out of the system who won't participate
Problems:

• Anyone choosing to play a character under this system would be playing a mindless automaton or sociopath.  It replaces the problem of people being unwilling to take jobs because of reluctance with people unwilling to join the system because they can't imagine a realistic person who would do these things and still be interesting to play.
• since people will still want to play criminals, this will just encourage people to do so off-the-grid, resulting in less participation in the supply side of this system and more talent on the illegal side.
• The remaining people who continue to play artists will be overwhelmed with work until people stop using the legal system of criminal hiring.

Suggested Alternative: Add refusal-related perks to going up in rank.

• Allow each level of Shadow Artist rank to come with a certain number of people the templarate are forbidden to give the artist a contract against.  These people must be listed in advance of the contract against them being given to the artist, of course.  This has the inverse benefit of keeping the Faithful aware of who the artist cares most about.
• At Master level, an artist's children and current lover cannot be targeted for contracts, even after retiring.
• None of these exemptions would be real limitations to keep these people from being disappeared or killed, they just wouldn't be the victims within the system.

Idea: All Shadow Artists work is contracted
Desired Effect: Encourages licensed criminals to seek patrons and combat the tendency of Thieves' licenses making people run amok.
Problems:

• Thieves will now be like skill-spamming warriors, except using the steal command instead of sparring.  This is insanely boring, even without comparing it to the thrill of practicing in public with low sneak and hide, and it requires the thief to bore at least one other person while training.  It's also far worse for the RP element of training the steal skill because the need to find your character's justifications for targets is obviated.
• Anyone performing uncontracted theft will rocket past legal thieves, unless said thieves skill-spam, which comes back to reducing them to sparring.  This shifts the talent to the side of breaking or entirely avoiding the system.
• Every. Single. Sneaky. Thing. A. Patron. Does. With. His. Or. Her. Partisans. Must. Go. Through. A. Contract. Process. Requiring. Said. Patron. To. Find. A. Templar. Set. Up. A. Meeting. Explain. What. Is. To. Be. Done. Pay. The. Templar. To. Use. His. Or. Her. Own. Partisans. Possibly. Wait. For. The. Templar. To. Contact. The. Partisan. (that part is unclear in the docs) And. Then. Wait. For. It. To. Be. Done. Before. Starting. A. New. Sneaky. Thing. That. Will. Require. The. Patron. To. Find. A. Templar. Set. Up. A. Meeting. Explain. What. Is. To. Be. Done. Pay. The. Templar. To. Use. His. Or. Her. Own. Partisans...
• The documentation does not cover contracts that require or explicitly call for teams to perform them.

Suggested Alternative: Only assassinations, vandalism of public art or property, and (if the staff keeps them) things that would happen in the public eye should be contracted, as they would otherwise require investigation.


Idea: Shadow Artists work is run exclusively by the templarate, though a double-blind system.
Desired Effect: Increased usage of legalized criminals, since now anyone can use one if they have the money and clout
Problems:

• Staff approving contracts is no longer a matter of simply confirming the target would be valid under the law.  Now it's a matter of
  • Confirm the target is valid.
  • Get enough information on the target to determine if the artist the templar chose was appropriate.
  • Either communicate target details to the templar so they can pick a more appropriate artist or keep tabs on the templar's player's knowledge to confirm they're not simply playing dumb about lining up specific people to get killed.
  • Keep tabs on who the templar is choosing to prevent system abuse through monopolizing someone's partisans to undermine them.
• From the staff side, there's a really crappy choice:
  • Massive workload increase for the staff if they bother monitoring the system.
  • Rapid distrust for the system from people playing under it or whose partisans are manipulated by it unless the staff undertakes a massive workload increase to monitor it.
• No one in their right mind would take on Shadow Artist partisans.  The sole benefit of "you get to pick who does the job" is a very poor compensation for all of the costs incurred:
  • You pay to train and equip the Shadow Artists, who anyone else can hire.
  • Your rivals, albeit at random, can further their plans using your partisans.
  • Your partisans can be damaged or killed, as well as potentially be disgraced, while performing contracts you don't know about for another's benefit.
  • Your own partisans may be unavailable to work for you due to working on other contracts.
  • You can be undermined by the templarate, either by them monopolizing your partisans or setting them up to fail or be killed.  Even if the system itself works perfectly and the templar PCs actually behave as the docs tell them to, there are still plenty of opportunities for abusing someone alongside the system.
  • Your partisans not only eventually can become the tools of your undoing unless you either undermine their progress or spy on them endlessly to make sure they don't take Master rank, but they also have intimate knowledge of your strengths and weaknesses
• Patrons will be far more likely to employ unlicensed criminals and feign ignorance (more in keeping with Allanki culture) than to go through all of the risk and frustration of this system, resulting in less supply of patronized Shadow Artists.

Suggested Alternative: Divide Shadow Artists, like bards, into those with Patrons and those who are unaffiliated.  The system would work as follows. Shadow Artists with a patron can only be hired through the patron, though anything requiring a contract would still need the patron to pay for one from a templar.  A life-sworn Shadow Artist would remain with their Patron, even at Master rank.  Unaffiliated Shadow Artists are contracted through the templarate as described.  To become a Master rank, an unaffiliated Shadow Artist would become life-sworn to the Templarate/City itself, and be held in higher esteem and social stature than a clan-associated Master Shadow Artist.

This would drastically reduce the potential staff workload; as there would no longer be a benefit for templars to abuse or commit actions undermine the system, there would be less monitoring needed to maintain faith in the system.  It would also encourage patrons to stick with licensed criminal partisans, since they would not become a massive liability versus risking incurring social stigma of employing unlicensed criminals (if they get caught and it's public and denial of knowledge is impossible).


Idea: Anyone can take out a contract on anyone at their social level or lower; higher levels require a go-between
Desired Effect: Make social standing mean something, get commoner PCs to interact with nobles more, and possibly discourage lone-wolfing.
Problems:

• Longer-lived commoner PCs will wind up having artificially enhanced influence over Tuluki culture.  We're not talking about a conspiracy.  It doesn't even need to be coordinated.  The presence of just a few obnoxious people with the same bad ideas could result in new PCs being played based on what behavior will draw less fire from them, rather than what the staff want for Tuluk. Whatever subculture they create enforced by assassination could become the reality for Tuluki PCs.  It doesn't matter that Tuluk has a virtual population of hundreds of thousands who don't behave that way because PCs don't have to interact with them.
• It's not in keeping with Tuluki culture, though I'll have to explain.
  • For Commoners, this change will discourage using the system:
    • I remember reading that assassins were often employed by people looking to move up the ladder.  I recall reading it was not uncommon for a bard to bump off a better bard to make an opening they could be promoted into, unfortunately, the doc I'd have referenced seems to have been edited.
    • Killing your way up the social ladder now requires you to involve a third party who may become hostile to you and inform your victim or, worse, agree to put out the hit and use your own money to have you killed instead.
• For the Chosen, it effectively makes their lives less sacred than the lowliest Legion recruit, who can not be targeted by this system for assassination.
• For the virtual masses, this will damage one of the biggest cultural divergences between Tuluk and Allanak.
  • Allanak is a place where everyone are animals and nobles slaughter each other like gortok to rule the pack.
  • Tuluk is "different" because the Chosen are "one big happy family" and, unlike Allanak, would never murder each other for personal gain, in the same way that they don't oppress Commoners or demand elaborate acts of deference such as bowing.  (The docs regarding this appear to have been edited recently, and no longer contain any mention of Tuluki nobility's and templarate's efforts to distance themselves from Allanak symbolically.)
  • Regardless of what is going on behind-the-scenes (noble on noble violence), it's well "known" that nobles can't have nobles killed in Tuluk.  This shift things to where the population of Tuluk would be publicly aware nobles can have other nobles killed.
• This will discourage PC nobles from using their Shadow Artist partisans creatively, since the vast majority of the things the new system allows were already possible (and often times allowed) in the old system, whereas just having your rival murdered on a whim is not merely being allowed but streamlined by the new system.
• This will also discourage PC nobles from having to be particularly clever, given that they can not only have their rivals killed but (given the ability to hire anyone) not even have to train up their own killers to do it or come up with a means of doing it secretly.

Suggested Alternative:

• Allow people to take out contracts on anyone at the level and lower in general, but also allow them to target the next level above them within their own social circle without needing a patron.  This will not only encourage more use of the system, it will put leader PCs in the tricky position of determining who to promote (or recommend for promotion, depending on how that is handled), rather than being relatively safe in their jobs as long as they don't screw up too badly.
• Disallow nobles from taking out contracts on each other, or at least make it require some level of justification/work to get a contract than it takes for a baker to have a miller killed over some bad flour.
• If you keep nobles as valid targets, either add Legion ranks to the social structure so they can be killed as-normal or add an exception so the high-born can have them killed.

Idea: A contract can be for anything barring the absurd.
Desired Effect: More use of the system, increased demand, increased activity, and increased interaction.
Problems:

• Forces people who use the system to be forced to take jobs they are qualified for but which have absolutely nothing to do with their license.  If I'm playing a thief, I probably don't want a contract to proposition a noble in public to hurt their standing.  If I'm playing an assassin, I probably don't want a contract to play private detective and shadow some bard to keep track of his/her adultery.
• Discourages people from participating in the supply side of the system, which will inevitably kill the demand side of the system since when things start taking forever to happen or never get done.

Suggested Alternative: Assassins only take assassin contracts, thieves only take theft/burglary contracts (depending on skill set), and the remaining contracts can be offered to anyone who registers with the templarate for that kind of work.  Perhaps adding a third license for spying/sabotage would work, but it might be better to go another route.  I'd recommend trying to encourage bards to act more like they were previously described in the docs (prior to the editing that occurred when Arm moved to a new version of the site), as the foils used by nobles to socially fence with one another.  This could be done by offering them contracts that don't fit with theft, burglary, or murder and by including immunity from punishment for any artfully-performed bad behavior required in those contracts.





(Minor edit to fix a broken list tag.)

[Dalmeth]

Let me start off by saying I love the fact there's documentation.  Too often, players are left to flounder on their own until the staff smacks them with the ban hammer.  So the only players who can prosper are those with a great deal of support from the playerbase, which encourages cliquish behavior that leaves the staff unwilling to enforce their minimally stated protocol.  For everyone else, it's worse than just a glass ceiling.   It's a glass ceiling with spikes.

However, as is usual when dealing with people being insular and pathetic, titans of virtue are demanded in order to teach people the proper and professional way of doing things.  Thus we get mandates.  I honestly looked over them on the first reading.  I simply didn't think the staff could reasonably expect players to adhere to them.  I took it with a wink and a nudge.

One should note that this documentation leaves anyone who plays a living, breathing character under onus of punishment from staff or PC leadership, via its excessively demanding mandates.  So only two sorts of people can survive : the hard-bitten dedicates of Tuluki Shadow Artistry and those with the social protections to escape punishment.

Yes, this is very harsh.  Very brutal.  Murder, Corruption, and Betrayal and all that, right?

But the turnover is horrendous, and since maxed skills are required to meet most of the non-combative strictures for discretion, starting a new Shadow is a daunting task at the least.  There are no trainers, nearly all safe training methods are banned as poor RP, and choosing the sneak class generally leaves you with little legal recourse for a steady flow of money.  If you aren't getting a great deal of help, you must first establish your character as something other than a Shadow before you can actually be a Shadow.

Fair enough, but I think you're starting to see why there are so few participants in the current system.

It's also worth noting that the system of independently contracted Shadows itself discourages a culture of Shadow Artistry.  On the one hand, a good Shadow can handle all jobs.  This leaves all the little fellas in the dark, and they store because they get bored.  Again, pointing to the fact that you can't base a character in being a sneak, which is contradicted by the guild system.  On the other hand, the documentation specifically states that this system is meant to reduce conflict.  By restricting sneakiness to independent contractors, anyone looking to contract sneaky jobs is drawing from the same pool of talent.  So no client has an edge over their target, a sneak war is going to be a stalemate, and there just isn't ever going to be a clear victory.  So by bringing sneakiness under control, this system reduces the client base to the impulsive and stupid.

In summary, I'm glad for new documentation.  I'm glad you've shined this wordy light into the dark, but uh... you really should remove the grues.

[palomar]

Let me throw a framework for an alternate idea up here. I'd be interested in hearing if this would help the system at all, from the staff perspective.

The templarate establishes a third-party group to manage shadow artists. This could be its own independent organization, or attached to something existing, like Poet's Circle. Let's call this for the purpose of this post only, the Shadow Artist's Guild. Obviously it needs a better name.

The Shadow Artist's Guild manages all "lawful" criminal activity in Tuluk. This involves:

• Training aspiring shadow artists to be discrete and help hone their skills
• "Recruiting" new shadow artists if there aren't enough for business
• Cracking down on "unlicensed" criminals -- either by forcing them to join up or getting rid of them
• Brokering contracts in a double-blind system like what was laid out by Nyr. By custom, the shadow artist's guild can't show favoritism to specific Houses or individuals when it sets up contracts.
• The templarate has oversight over the SA Guild as whole, but by custom, individual templars are not allowed to interfere with contracts.

Breaking these down, I'm envisioning a clan compound somewhere for shadow artists to gather and train, if they want. (Or, they could train independently, or with a patron.)

Journeymen and higher in the Shadow Artist's Guild could sponsor new apprentices in the SA Guild, and would be responsible for mentoring them. If a Journeyman's apprentice fucks up and gets caught, that'd hurt the Journeyman's rep too.

If people are trying to work crimes outside the system, the SA Guild has a serious incentive to stop and/or absorb them. Crime is their lifeblood and they have a monopoly.

The SA Guild would need a "public face" to negotiate contracts. This is the only person who would know who requested a job and would need to keep complete secrecy. They would probably have the protection of a high-ranking templar to put them beyond the harassment of templar PCs. If this person ever compromises the secrecy of a contract - either who requested it or who did it - both the templarate and the SA Guild itself would want them to be silenced Very Quickly. An artist in good standing within the Guild would be selected for the job. They could refuse, if they wanted, but it wouldn't be a good idea career-wise.

Once a job has been completed, the SA Guild would notify the templarate/Legion that it was their work. The templarate can deem a crime was too public, too messy, or too poorly executed and charge a fee. It might even become custom that such "cleanup fees" follow most hits, just so the templarate keeps a cut of the action too.

I've more about this - a lot more - but I just want to throw it out there and see if anyone else thinks I'm crazy. The main thing I want to avoid is Honest, Fair Templar Syndrome in Tuluk. I think it'd be such a shame for Tuluk if templars were obligated by the docs to be fair just so this system can work. There are ways we could have a viable shadow artist community in Tuluk while maintaining templars who are vile, corrupt, detestable, brutal assholes. Isn't that the best of both worlds?

Who would the Public Face be? Would it be an interesting role to play a Shadow Broker? This isn't stuff the Templarate would outsource to commoners. It's an individual with protection from a high-ranking templar, they can't talk about contract stuff to anyone but the Shadow Agent, the Shadow Artist picked for the contract, and the high-ranking templar who'd most likely be an NPC. They also cannot play politics in regards to contracts.

Furthermore, the Public Face/Shadow Brokers would need to be literate. This isn't some alley mafia, this is a formal Templarate sanctioned institution. Records will be kept. That makes me think the position requires either a House Negean noble or a literate slave scribe. Both would be very restricted roles because you'd know a lot, but you wouldn't be able to put any of it to use. If you leave the brokering role in the hands of Templars, they can't play politics with the specific contracts but they can still use the information in various ways.

My take is that it'd be fun to play a Shadow Artist, having your own clan, compound and all, but it would suck to be a Shadow Broker/Public Face. Someone compared it to House Nenyuk PCs and I don't think that's too far off.

[Lizzie]

If the Shadow Guild were an off-shoot of the Bards, and the Mediators were Nenyuk agents, I think all of this could work. But with the templars as the mediators, and Shadow Artists being independent, I don't think it would work. I think people would have too tough of a time to get things started, customers would be hesitant to trust a templar regarding the murder or robbery or "character assassination" of a "true-inked" Tuluki.

I've also noticed a complete lack of consideration for "people of interest" living and working legally in Tuluk, who are not citizens, as targets. Joe Indie is an independent merchant/trader in Tuluk. He's a true-inked citizen, and his employees are all true-inked citizens, and they all are happy to help the Templarate and give them deals on goods and services whenever needed. Joe heard that Susie Salarr is pissing on his business, sending all the hunters out to poach the best critters, stake out at the best forage spots, and hoarde the choicest water holes in the scrub, even though Susie's orders have been few and far between. It's obvious she's doing it to try and push Joe out of business. Susie is an Allanak-born Junior Agent, related by blood to House Salarr, but definitely -not- a citizen of Tuluk.

Can Joe arrange for Susie's punishment? If so, does he get a break on the price? If he can't, why not? She's not even a citizen. Her "societal rank" should be lower than his. Or should it?

Edited to suggest: regarding the questions about Joe vs. Susie. What if there were "ranks" of punishment? I mean the whole mandate thing is already pretty convoluted (in my opinion). So if we're going to get detailed and micromanage things - why not do so from the actual contractual end of things as well? Allow lower-society members contract for low-ranking "punishments" on higher-ranking members of society.

So Joe could arrange for a shadow artist to draw silly paintings on the street in front of the Salarr estate, or compose and recite a scathing scolding against Salarr's poaching habits at a public event. But Joe wouldn't be allowed to contract Susie's murder.

Something like that might be more "fun" for everyone involved, rather than a tacit "thou shalt not" and "thou must always."

[Cutthroat]

If the Shadow Guild were an off-shoot of the Bards, and the Mediators were Nenyuk agents, I think all of this could work.

On an IC level, why would thieves, killers and thugs be associated with Bards of Poet's Circle so closely, and why would the city entrust the sale of legalized shady contracts to a GMH? On an OOC level, it's clear that the old licensing system as well as the new one is the templarate's admission that bad things are certain to happen, so the law may as well regulate it.

But with the templars as the mediators, and Shadow Artists being independent, I don't think it would work. I think people would have too tough of a time to get things started, customers would be hesitant to trust a templar regarding the murder or robbery or "character assassination" of a "true-inked" Tuluki.

Not sure if you (or the plenty of other posters that have mentioned trust) mean IC or OOC trust. ICly, it's been the Lirathan Order's job all along to be trusted with that for years. Your character either trusts the Faithful or is a dissident who is hopefully at least smart enough to pretend. OOCly, if players of Shadow Artists/Agents aren't trusting the templar players to be neutral... too bad? Have some faith in the players and the staff who pick them. Only good players get to become templars, and if they make mistakes I'm sure they are told as much by staff, same as any sponsored role.

The only differences now are that all templars are being trusted with it, and that character assassination to a shady/violent degree is an option.

I've also noticed a complete lack of consideration for "people of interest" living and working legally in Tuluk, who are not citizens, as targets. Joe Indie is an independent merchant/trader in Tuluk. He's a true-inked citizen, and his employees are all true-inked citizens, and they all are happy to help the Templarate and give them deals on goods and services whenever needed. Joe heard that Susie Salarr is pissing on his business, sending all the hunters out to poach the best critters, stake out at the best forage spots, and hoarde the choicest water holes in the scrub, even though Susie's orders have been few and far between. It's obvious she's doing it to try and push Joe out of business. Susie is an Allanak-born Junior Agent, related by blood to House Salarr, but definitely -not- a citizen of Tuluk.

Can Joe arrange for Susie's punishment? If so, does he get a break on the price? If he can't, why not? She's not even a citizen. Her "societal rank" should be lower than his. Or should it?

The (admittedly old, but hopefully we'll see an update to them) Tuluki caste docs have this nugget:

Those Great Merchant House employees who are able to claim citizenship may have a slightly higher social status then those who cannot - especially in legal matters. However, since the social power of the Great Merchant House is largely a function of their tremendous wealth and not any perceived quality of character, the differences are minor.

And this one:

Independent organizations that are not tied to a city-state but do fall into the place of a merchant house are usually lumped into the "Merchant" subgroup if they are deemed successful and influential enough. A group of hunters would not fall into this category, but a self-made, established organization complete with some sort of noble, templar, or GMH sponsorship would.

So for your example, their societal rank might be about the same if Joe is influential enough or has an infulential patron. If not, he may be S.O.L. At least that will encourage Joe to find a benevolent patron who dislikes Susie.

[X-D]

On greater reflection, I will take this point back as well Nyr.

And, assuming things were put into place to satisfy anybody's worries on the above questions and others...then why in hell would anybody ever want to play a Templar in the north...might as well re-open nenyuk for play at that point, it would be more fun.

It was going under the thought that rules straightjacketing Templars would make the role less fun...but on reflecting on what I think are the best roles to play, the ones that are the most fun are the ones with the clearest documentation often with a great number of clear rules as to how the role should be played...some of which I have had a hand in...along with staff and others.

Over all I like the idea...but I still have doubts as to the Templars being in control or even brokers. I think it would be more viable to have a dedicated clan for such a thing. Sort of like the Fair witness institution from "Stranger in a Strange Land".

Then you would have PCs that everybody, including the Templars KNOW have only one purpose, to protect and promote shadow artistry and Tuluki culture.

The impartial shadow broker.

(BTW, I dreamt about the idea then it took me two days to remember where I got it from...heh)

[Lizzie]

On greater reflection, I will take this point back as well Nyr.

And, assuming things were put into place to satisfy anybody's worries on the above questions and others...then why in hell would anybody ever want to play a Templar in the north...might as well re-open nenyuk for play at that point, it would be more fun.

It was going under the thought that rules straightjacketing Templars would make the role less fun...but on reflecting on what I think are the best roles to play, the ones that are the most fun are the ones with the clearest documentation often with a great number of clear rules as to how the role should be played...some of which I have had a hand in...along with staff and others.

Over all I like the idea...but I still have doubts as to the Templars being in control or even brokers. I think it would be more viable to have a dedicated clan for such a thing. Sort of like the Fair witness institution from "Stranger in a Strange Land".

Then you would have PCs that everybody, including the Templars KNOW have only one purpose, to protect and promote shadow artistry and Tuluki culture.

The impartial shadow broker.

(BTW, I dreamt about the idea then it took me two days to remember where I got it from...heh)

Brainstorming XD's post, I'm coming up with an expansion to his idea of the Shadow Brokers Union (would very likely have a different name but SBU is easy to type here in this post).

SBU might start out as a single, trusted, uncorruptable, uncorrupted, loyal commoner citizen of Tuluk who has never served in any House or as a partisan of any living potential patron. Possibly a former Legionairre of a modest rank, but no more involved in politics than that. This Leader would need to be an NPC, because he's the first, and someone has to fill the roles with "trusted" seconds. He'd be the initial boss that just gets things started.

Now, we have maybe - 2 or 3 PCs who are SBU members. They have all proven themselves to be trustworthy, and are not presently or *recently* affiliated with any House, and are not presently a partisan to any patron. Recently - would mean - within the last game-year. House would be any noble OR GMH house. These would likely be sponsored roles but it the criteria is met, an existing PC could probably be recruited into it.

The position within the SBU would be as a broker, and as a witness. Anyone wanting a witness for any transaction of any kind, can contract an SBU member to witness it, for a fee. Fees would be determined primarily by the nature of the thing they're witnessing. If they're witnessing a simple bank transaction, maybe it'd just be a mug of ale and fifty sids. If it's witnessing the passage of a parchment of writing from templar to noble, maybe a hundred sids. If it's witnessing a robbery, 200 sids. Witnessing an assassination - 300 sids. That's arbitrary - if the idea is a good one, y'all can flesh that out yourselves. As a witness, the SBU member would keep silent, out of the way, not interfere in any way at all, be on time, leave on time, tell no one, and simply act as witness to events. Either party involved in a transaction can now invoke the witness's name if a conflict comes up regarding the transaction, and the witness must recount what they witnessed. If they are asked to recount it more than once, the witness would be allowed to charge a fee for each additional recounting.

As a broker, the SBU member would accept the contract requirements from the person wanting the contract, determine if the contract meets the criteria involved in contracts, accept it or reject it, and if accepted, arrange for the contract to be carried out by a Shadow Artist. The usual fees would be involved there as well. This -might- or _might not_ also involve the SBU member serving as witness, but perhaps only if the Artist was caught in the act and the templars got involved. Otherwise, the SBU member would be silent, and the two parties would never know about who hired the artist and which artist performed the task. Perhaps a message to the templarate that "a contract involving robbery has been accepted and assigned" with no names mentioned, just so that the templarate knows that somewhere in the city, a legitimate robbery is occuring. So if the artist screws up, they'll know why they have some guy in jail right now. Until that moment, the templarate would not need to know, because it is, afterall, a legitimate robbery.

Can an SBU member be corrupted? For all intents and purposes, no they can't. Technically they can. But they'd have to be *damned* good at judging when they can accept a bribe and when not to, because the consequences would be extreme if their corruption is discovered. Maybe they'd have to get a special ink around their eyes, that marks them as a betrayer of trust, and then be exiled out of the Union. No legal entity in the city would be allowed to employ him legally, for any reason. He would be cast out, but allowed to continue existing in the city. But he wouldn't find an apartment building outside the Warrens that would accept his coin for rent, and perhaps the NPC vendors and merchants would charge him double for buying anything, and offer him half what they offer everyone else. They'd have the equivalent of a Scarlett Letter.

So yes, an SBU member *could* be corrupted. But at great risk, and at extreme cost if they are discovered.

I think there are a few folks who'd jump on a chance to play a role like this - given great responsibility, but also great privilege in being allowed to "obesrve" the inner machinations of Tuluk society without having to manipulate them - or being able to at least -try- to manipulate them if they think they're clever enough to get away with it.

Meanwhile, SBU members could have any guild or subguild that they have karma for - but the most logical ones would be merchants or rangers or other guilds/subguilds with listen and/or hide, simply because they need something to do, and profit from, on down times when they aren't negotiating contracts or witnessing events. SBU members themselves would not be eligible to get licenses as Shadow Artists, but they could be -retired- Shadow Artists. So that gives existing PC "artists" something to reach for if they get tired of robbing apartments all day

[ShaLeah]

Can shadow artists only work when contracted? In particular burglars and thieves, are they permitted to do their craft for profit without being contracted?

[janeshephard]

Can shadow artists only work when contracted? In particular burglars and thieves, are they permitted to do their craft for profit without being contracted?

Only shadow agents take contracts. Thieves and burglars just ply their trade after being registered.

EDIT: Not trade. I mean art

[manonfire]

It's my understanding that registration as it stands now is going away. You're either a shadow artist or a criminal operating outside the good graces of the templarate.

[janeshephard]

It's my understanding that registration as it stands now is going away. You're either a shadow artist or a criminal operating outside the good graces of the templarate.

From the Shadow Artist FAQ:

"How do I become a shadow artist?

Meet with a templar so that you can register with them in private..."

Registration stays. There's IC reasons for all of this I won't get into.

[Cutthroat]

Can shadow artists only work when contracted? In particular burglars and thieves, are they permitted to do their craft for profit without being contracted?

Only shadow agents take contracts. Thieves and burglars just ply their trade after being registered.

EDIT: Not trade. I mean art

It's my understanding that registration as it stands now is going away. You're either a shadow artist or a criminal operating outside the good graces of the templarate.

Thieves, burglars, killers and other assorted thugs can be shadow artists. Shadow Agents currently refer to those who hire shadow artists.

The new system lets you be both a shadow artist and a criminal, technically, by doing uncontracted work. A shadow artist with a specialty in theft does not legally have free reign to steal anything. But it seems similar to the old system in that a licensed thief that was caught stealing would be punished (just the punishment was reduced, due to being licensed). With the new system, that reduction doesn't just come from being licensed anymore, with social status factoring more into things. If you don't get caught then the usual IC factors will probably determine whether the Faithful bother to investigate (patronage of the suspect, social status of a person asking a Faithful to investigate, etc.).

[janeshephard]

OK, I re-read the FAQs and Cutthroats explanation is inline with them.

I thought it was going to be like the current one where thieves just go on thieving.

[Jherlen]

Who would the Public Face be? Would it be an interesting role to play a Shadow Broker? This isn't stuff the Templarate would outsource to commoners. It's an individual with protection from a high-ranking templar, they can't talk about contract stuff to anyone but the Shadow Agent, the Shadow Artist picked for the contract, and the high-ranking templar who'd most likely be an NPC. They also cannot play politics in regards to contracts.

Furthermore, the Public Face/Shadow Brokers would need to be literate. This isn't some alley mafia, this is a formal Templarate sanctioned institution. Records will be kept. That makes me think the position requires either a House Negean noble or a literate slave scribe. Both would be very restricted roles because you'd know a lot, but you wouldn't be able to put any of it to use. If you leave the brokering role in the hands of Templars, they can't play politics with the specific contracts but they can still use the information in various ways.

My take is that it'd be fun to play a Shadow Artist, having your own clan, compound and all, but it would suck to be a Shadow Broker/Public Face. Someone compared it to House Nenyuk PCs and I don't think that's too far off.

I hear those concerns, palomar. I had the same ones myself. Literacy could be handled a couple ways: they could write contracts in cavilish (since these are basically business deals anyway), the broker could be a slave, or the broker could be someone from the noble caste. As far as playability concerns, I'm hopeful that the SA Guild would have enough other things to do (keeping members in line, clamping down on unlicensed criminals, cleaning up after contracts gone wrong) that the Broker would still have an exciting role to play. If it does end up that they're just a House Nenyuk PC who's only purpose in game is a go-between, something would need to change. What I do think is these problems are all better ones than the problem of mandating templars themselves be fair and uncorrupt.

But with the templars as the mediators, and Shadow Artists being independent, I don't think it would work. I think people would have too tough of a time to get things started, customers would be hesitant to trust a templar regarding the murder or robbery or "character assassination" of a "true-inked" Tuluki.

Not sure if you (or the plenty of other posters that have mentioned trust) mean IC or OOC trust. ICly, it's been the Lirathan Order's job all along to be trusted with that for years. Your character either trusts the Faithful or is a dissident who is hopefully at least smart enough to pretend. OOCly, if players of Shadow Artists/Agents aren't trusting the templar players to be neutral... too bad? Have some faith in the players and the staff who pick them. Only good players get to become templars, and if they make mistakes I'm sure they are told as much by staff, same as any sponsored role.

The only differences now are that all templars are being trusted with it, and that character assassination to a shady/violent degree is an option.

I personally am referring to IC trust. History aside for a moment, I just don't like the word "trust" when it comes to a templar. Templars should be feared. They should be people who can screw you over and have no qualms against doing so. Whether or not all Tulukis actually trusted Lirathans in the past (I have my doubts), I think Tuluk is now at a crossroads and this is the perfect time to abolish notions of trustworthy, fair, honest, just templars completely. They of course want to seem that way to keep up appearances, but this is Tuluk and everyone should know it's not true. Templars just have too much potential to be political, corrupt, conniving assholes to hamstring them with having to fairly and impartially administrate crime like this.

[janeshephard]

I hear those concerns, palomar. I had the same ones myself. Literacy could be handled a couple ways: they could write contracts in cavilish (since these are basically business deals anyway), the broker could be a slave, or the broker could be someone from the noble caste.

It's a literacy problem even if its in Cavilish. Reading and writing is outlawed for commoners. This includes commoner merchants. The only person who could legally take up this role is a noble or a templar.

[Jherlen]

I hear those concerns, palomar. I had the same ones myself. Literacy could be handled a couple ways: they could write contracts in cavilish (since these are basically business deals anyway), the broker could be a slave, or the broker could be someone from the noble caste.

It's a literacy problem even if its in Cavilish. Reading and writing is outlawed for commoners. This includes commoner merchants. The only person who could legally take up this role is a noble or a templar.

That's incorrect. Commoner merchants are allowed to have RW Cav. I know for a fact this applies to GMH members, but I believe it also applies for more "minor" merchant houses as well. Since Tuluk is already letting other merchants know Cavilish, there's no reason why they couldn't appropriate it for their own needs, if they needed to.

[janeshephard]

I hear those concerns, palomar. I had the same ones myself. Literacy could be handled a couple ways: they could write contracts in cavilish (since these are basically business deals anyway), the broker could be a slave, or the broker could be someone from the noble caste.

It's a literacy problem even if its in Cavilish. Reading and writing is outlawed for commoners. This includes commoner merchants. The only person who could legally take up this role is a noble or a templar.

Thats incorrect. Commoner merchants are allowed to have RW Cav. I know for a fact this applies to GMH members, but I believe it also applies for more "minor" merchant houses as well.

Nope. It's illegal. Just because they do it does not mean it's legal.

EDIT: Actually..

"  Please note that literacy is illegal or unknown for most people on the
face of Zalanthas.  While nobles and templars are trained in the arts of
reading and writing and the Merchant Houses pass along a knowledge of how
to write the trade-ciphers associated with Cavilish to their agents and
merchants, it is considered treason for common citizens to possess such
knowledge within the city-states of Zalanthas."

I'm not sure Cavilish is illegal. Hmm. I'll need to look at my old logs where a staff member at the time clarified this.

[Jherlen]

I hear those concerns, palomar. I had the same ones myself. Literacy could be handled a couple ways: they could write contracts in cavilish (since these are basically business deals anyway), the broker could be a slave, or the broker could be someone from the noble caste.

It's a literacy problem even if its in Cavilish. Reading and writing is outlawed for commoners. This includes commoner merchants. The only person who could legally take up this role is a noble or a templar.

Thats incorrect. Commoner merchants are allowed to have RW Cav. I know for a fact this applies to GMH members, but I believe it also applies for more "minor" merchant houses as well.

Nope. It's illegal. Just because they do it does not mean it's legal.

Trust me, it is not illegal, unless Something Big has changed that wasn't documented anywhere. I've seen merchants who wrote down and signed merchant contracts right in front of templars in both cities. I can name a few templars who would have looooved to kill Rokov Kurac for any excuse, and somehow writing in front of them wasn't an excuse enough.