Tuluk's Shadow Artists: Now With More Flavor

[Nyr]

Yes. I'd rather they were kept in the dark but only stepped in to check licensing when they suspect the rules were broken, than to make them always agree to contracts. I'll be frank. I think you'll see a steep drop in artistry if they get turned into automaton that must accept every contract their offered.

I'll be frank, too...I doubt that it can get much lower or less utilized than it is now.  I'm willing to accept that if that turns out to be the case and adjust it farther down the road.

I like that you realize this. Can I open a request to northern staff and address this point with some IC information?

Thanks.

Sure, I don't see why not.  I realize it because I've played it in the past, but I also realize it because I staff it and we can see the amount of use it has (or the frustrations people have with using it, whether they know we see it or not).

It's all been very playable ever since crimcode was disabled at night years ago. Once you play around with it a bit and figure out what you can and can't get away with, it's very doable.

I -totally- did not know crim code was disabled at night. Is this even true?

Not quite all the way true.  There are some changes that have been made that make it more likely for crime to succeed at night, though.  Someone has probably already provided you with the answer in a later post, I'm going through questions chronologically. 

[Taven]

Pros of the New System

• The united templar system means that you don't need to find a Lirathan to ask
• It makes use of social status, which will encourage PC to PC interaction
• It covers more then just assassination--And highlights other options to just assassination

The first is nothing except good, since being able to find any templar means that there's more opportunity to use the system. It means that if the Lirathan templars (or templar, if there's only one) don't play during your timezone, you're not out of luck. It also gives the former Jihaens ways to interact other then going out and fighting shit. Actually, I think the united order system means that the system will just work better--You can do a lot more with the same number of Faithful PCs.

The second I also am fond of. Tuluk is a strange place, where nobles and commoners can sit at the bar together and chat, but despite that, they are all very much aware of their place in society. This Shadow Artist system will further emphasize the social standing aspect of Tuluk, which I think is sometimes overlooked. We definitely need a rank chart before the system can go in, though. I mention that below.

The final bullet point I think is really worth nothing. Ideally, this system will be used also for smaller things. It would be interesting if Tuluk culture also had a "warning" system, where you did X, Y, and Z to get someone to change their ways before shrugging and killing them. This might be unofficial, but I think showing your power (perhaps anonymously) by messing with people could be really good.


Cons of the New System

• Shadow artists cannot refuse contracts
• Concerns about if Templars can impartially run a system against their own pets
• Concerns about why patroning a shadow artist is wise, if they will eventually grow beyond the patron's control
• Concerns about how newbies can train and how to make the system more newbie-friendly

To be fair, the concern about templars is probably something that impacts the system presently. Since as-is, they're still the ones running the system. This system isn't going to worsen things in that regard at all. I do think seeing more convincing reasons that Templars follow the new system honestly (other then coin) would be good.


Potential solutions, ideas, and unresolved stuff

• Potentially make a buy-out for contracts so Shadow Artists can rarely refuse, but have consequences
• How do Shadow Artists advance? Is it something thrust upon them, or do they have to actively seek it? Can they refuse advancement, and are there consequences if they do?
• Potentially patroning shadow artists can work very well, if you hire all mid-level ones to work together on higher contracts
• How does the patroning of the Shadow Artists work, and is short term patronage an assets or feature?
• Are there consequences to keep Templars honest with the system? What sort of checks do they have?
• How will Shadow Artist Legionnaires operate under the system?

(Edited to add a point about newbies)

[Lizzie]

I think the idea of an overhaul is a fine one. However, it begs the question: Why bother? The main movers and shakers have been the same couple for well over a real-time year, and their conflicts are the exact same conflicts they've been for the entire time. Granted - they're played well. But if all you're going to see is Noble's Aide #92 get assassinated, while Bard #994.a sings yet another song insulting Chosen Doodah's shoe-size, and the ninth GMH family member to overcharge the templar's favorite Legionairre again gets his Master Crafter's apartment robbed - well then nothing is changing. The results are the same. A whole lot of overhauling for basically nothing.

The only difference is, there might be more "official shadow artists" committing the crimes, and fewer "unlicensed criminals" doing it. Licensed or unlicensed, the same job is being done, the same results, the same effort.

Also, I think that the whole "pranking and insulting" end of contractual agreements with Shadow Artists needs to be - not the perview of Shadow Artists at all. That lies squarely upon the shoulders of the Bards of Tuluk and I'm guessing the Master Bards would not take kindly to having their toes stepped on by some first-rank Templar's pet prankster.

If you were to do away with the bardic circles entirely, then that'd change my opinion of that particular aspect of the docs. If you took that aspect away from the bardic circles, and left them otherwise intact, I feel it would turn them into nothing more than rank entertainers with an iso apartment house. So I don't think retconning the bardic circles would be a viable choice. But without making that choice, you still leave that part of the new overhaul stepping over the line into Bardic territory.

[Nyr]

It always felt like playing an unlicensed criminal was almost similar to trying to play a defiler in the middle of the city. Doable but probably not for very long. Both for similar reasons.


Things be changing more than advertised?

The best I can offer is a maybe. 

Based on feedback here, I for one have seen some people (hyzenhok) that have pointed out the advantages afforded to those that might choose to play criminal criminals--that is, criminals that do not want to stay inside the happy little box that Tuluk has constructed for them.  Jherlen and maybe a couple of others (sorry if I don't remember your names) have pointed out that they really want to have the opportunity to do other criminal work.  Even if all we do is define that there might be an unspoken black-market-style, off-the-books sort of "crime" out there--the kind that would get stamped out, punished severely, or monitored closely, depending on climate--it opens the door for some consideration that may not have occurred before.

[Sayyadina]

The system is broken, not just underutilized. Under the current system Templars have the ability to act as proxies and give contracts to licensed thieves and assassins, and I seriously doubt the reason it isn't used is that nobody has thought to try it.

The current "system" needs more than one person to "think to try it."  It needs a critical mass of contracting agents and "shadow artists" to know the system exists and to know the expectations for their roles.  There's no documentation in place right now to support the current "system" so IMO that critical mass has never been reached.

The problem is the templars cannot reliably deliver the service, because the licensed artists currently owe nothing to the templarate after they get their license. Instead they become loyal servants of X leader PC, and of course nobody outside of X leader has any real chance of hiring them to do something cool.

Maybe this is the cause of the under utilization of the current "system."  Maybe the templarate has TONS of contracts for jobs but when they try to get PCs to do them they're constantly rebuffed.  I don't get that impression.  I've been in a place to IC'ly see requests for "shadow artists" to do jobs and I just haven't seen any requests made over a matter of... a long time.  Maybe the templarate just assumes that they'd be turned down before they ever ask?  That's different than the "shadow artists" refusing because they're loyal servants.

When you played a clanned "shadow artist" did you have a bunch of requests for jobs that you turned down because you were clanned?

And why would X leader ever risk trying to hire someone outside of their House for risky, potentially embarrassing jobs?

I have to agree with janeshephard here:

I would hire people outside my House to do stuff so it doesn't lead back to me.

Really? Even when every other skilled, licensed artist is already employed by another House or organization?

Yes really.  If the templarate hires a skilled, licensed artist outside my clan or even from a rival clan, that artist still won't know it was me who initiated the contract.

The end result is shadow artists rarely if ever get contracts; they just become another type of house servant. Which is boring.

What if it's a clan that has your "shadow artist" doing lots of "shadow artisty" things?  Is it still boring?

These new docs succeed in a few very important things:

• Opportunity cost for artists to get licensed. Paying some coins for a license has never been a significant cost. Requiring licensed artists to do jobs when called upon in exchange for state sanction? Now there's an interesting trade-off.

I agree that there should be an expectation that licensed "shadow artists" will do contracts outside their clan or patronage for the good of Tuluk and because if they refuse too much that makes baby Utep cry.  I think if that expectation were documented publicly then we'd see more "shadow artist" PCs playing that way because it's fun.  I personally trust the playerbase in this.  What I don't think is fun is an ironclad mandate that "shadow artists" MUST take every job that is brought to them.  That turns something cool and fun into an onerous requirement.

Also, if you think that paying coins for a license is not enough of an opportunity cost right now, what do you think about the opportunity costs in the new system for contracting agents?  Under the new docs, if you want to kill someone at or below your social status the only opportunity cost is paying coins.  Because of the stack of mandates in the new documents there is no other risk other than having to pay out of pocket.

These new docs succeed in a few very important things:

• Shadow artists are required to work more closely with the templarate, so the templarate can get a much clearer picture of who is capable of what. It's all well and good to say they can already serve as middlemen, but to be frank, I bet most templars never see an artist again after they license them.

If templars never see artist PCs after they're licensed, maybe it's because there's no demand for the templars to find those artist PCs because players have been unaware of the current "system" that permits contracting agents to go to the templarate to anonymously find a "shadow artist" to do sneaky jobs?

Maybe all that's needed is some public documentation of a true system including expectations, and a good faith effort by the players?

[Fredd]

I don't much like it, except for the change in tattoo. I do like the idea of a new tattoo that embelishents are added to, to show your skill.

other then that, I don't lik the rest of the changes. or at least, how they read.

[Taven]

I don't much like it, except for the change in tattoo. I do like the idea of a new tattoo that embelishents are added to, to show your skill.

other then that, I don't lik the rest of the changes. or at least, how they read.

Why? What specific parts don't you like?

I don't like some parts too, but if you say which parts bother you, it's more helpful feedback for staff.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I don't like Tuluk. Let's get this straight. I'll never use this system, probably, ever. I avoid being based in Tuluk like I avoid drunk drivers.

With that said, this whole idea sounds cool as hell. If it fails, tweak it, because it's Fing cool. Tuluk has always been painted as a place of artists. This seriously makes that a forefront. It also gives Tuluk a hyper-communist feel, which to me, fits right in with that place. I don't know that I liked the Templar Orders disappearing, but at the same time, I do - just don't make them Allanaki Templars (because that's blasphemy) because the stuff that Tuluki Templars are known for makes them Tuluki Templars. If anything, tone them down, don't tone them out.

But this isn't about them. It's about the Shadow Artists. And yeah, I think this whole thing really fits in with Tuluk as a whole. Making the system more ritualized and public in terms of its existence is the right thing to do.

And gawddam, I don't think I've ever seen a staff member be so apparent. It works wonders in terms of feeling like the odd gap between staff and players doesn't exist. I also think it's the right thing to do, so congrats Nyr. Congrats on both your willingness to speak to the players about this huge thing, and your work in implementing everything you have to get this shift headed in the right direction.

I dig it.

[janeshephard]

Based on feedback here, I for one have seen some people (hyzenhok) that have pointed out the advantages afforded to those that might choose to play criminal criminals--that is, criminals that do not want to stay inside the happy little box that Tuluk has constructed for them.  Jherlen and maybe a couple of others (sorry if I don't remember your names) have pointed out that they really want to have the opportunity to do other criminal work.  Even if all we do is define that there might be an unspoken black-market-style, off-the-books sort of "crime" out there--the kind that would get stamped out, punished severely, or monitored closely, depending on climate--it opens the door for some consideration that may not have occurred before.

Nyr, an important question here is: Does Tuluk have more unlicensed crimes, than licensed and registered shadow art work? If it does have more unlicensed crime I would think things wouldn't be so 'happy' in Tuluk since its traditions have not caught on to a large extent.

Consequently, if criminal criminals make up a larger group than licensed shadow artists and agents, the average Tuluki won't care as much about the bullshit laws that the few of higher status -appear- to follow. And they would appear to follow them if they want to keep the caste structure in place.

[Wish]

For this particular issue, I think that the problem might be that the playerbase at large hasn't seen the beta "So You Want To Rule The Artists" document that outlines this from the templar's perspective.  It doesn't disclose anything secret, it's just how the templars would be running the system.  Is that something that might be valuable to review, even if it's not committed permanently to public documentation (i.e., put up for viewing briefly)? 

I'd be interested in taking a look.

[Nyr]

So the current "system" has failed and seemingly needs to be replaced with a new system that is stacked full of mandates to force more use of the new system compared to the current "system."  However, I think this is based on a false assumption that the current "system" isn't working because of a lack of mandates.  I think the current "system" doesn't work because no one knows about it!  I'll bet that the majority of posters in the thread were unaware that templars can currently confidentially broker contracts between an agent and a "shadow artist."  I didn't know until fairly recently.  So is the failure of the current "system" one of design or of implementation?  There are no detailed public documents about the current "system," even.  Of course it won't work.

http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Tuluki%20Roleplay

Law and Order in Tuluk:
Some time ago, a law won the Triumvirate majority for the reinstatement of an old Tuluki custom: licensed thievery and assassination.
Thievery and assassination:
Thieves and assassins (by trade, not coded guild) are required to register with a member of the Templarate prior to conducting theft or an assassination. The templar records this information in the License Registry: the individual's name, description, organization (if any), legal occupation (if any), thief or assassin, the recording templar's name and the record date. (For example: "Jonah, a tall human male with blue eyes and brown hair, knife-maker of House Salarr, registers as assassin, recorded by Faithful Lady Janis, 168th day of the Descending Sun, year 59 of the 20th Age.")

Thieves
A thief is charged a one-time registration fee of 300 obsidian. Registered thieves are still expected to operate with enough wisdom and skill not to get caught; after all, this law is a rebirth of the appreciation of high expertise in Old Tuluk. If a registered thief is caught, however, she may be let off with a warning, or receive a lessened penalty, at the templar's discretion (conscientious PC templars may wish to make this clear to the thief). Needless to say, registered thieves may also receive paying jobs from the templarate.
Assassins
An assassin registers for free, but must purchase a separate "license" for each assassination. A license is not a tangible object, but rather a pledge from the templarate not to act on the findings of an investigation - provided the crime has been committed as recorded, and executed with skill and discretion.

Definitive and in-depth, no, but if you read Tuluki docs, it's there at least.

IMO "shadow artists" are currently underutilized not because they're refusing jobs or they're overly loyal, but because most players are oblivious and uncertain about what the current "system" is and what the expectations are for their roles, especially for contracting agents and "shadow artists."  This uncertainty might manifest as reluctance or excess loyalty, but those are symptoms and not causes.

Isn't that sort of a chicken or egg argument?  "It's not that people are reluctant to work or too loyal to their patrons, it's that they don't know that they are supposed to be invested in the 'system' and should be more loyal to the 'system.'"  Defining the documentation and laying out guidelines should put us in a good position to later (if deemed necessary) loosen up restrictions.  Again, it's easier to move from more strict to less strict than vice versa.

The new documentation is stacked full of mandates for the contracting agent, for the templars, and for the "shadow artists," and it looks to me that the mandates are the biggest source of concern for those responding in this thread.  I know those many mandates are my biggest personal concern.

The overall gist of it probably is not going to change.  Some parts of it might be tweaked based on feedback.  Removing all of them is more than likely not going to happen.

So those of us that are concerned are being asked to trust in the new documents and to give it a shot:

No, what I'm saying is that we can accept that players are biased as a whole, and instead of pretending it isn't the case, recognize it, minimize it where we can, and balance it where we can't so that at least the playing field is level from an OOC standpoint.

I don't think we're pretending it isn't the case that players can be biased.  I think we're asking that players play above that and roleplay since it's the first rule of the game.  If it doesn't work or seems horrible to play, we can change it, but I'd rather give the playerbase the opportunity to try something out that is different rather than just assume "well...this will never work because players can't handle it."

But I think what many of us are asking is to be trusted in our roleplay to try out a documented system of "shadow artistry" without all the mandates, and in response we're being told "this will never work because players can't handle it" without mandates.

We're already seeing it not work because of the lack of restriction, so we're adding more restriction to it.

However, if the mandate-heavy system is implemented and we see increased utilization, how will we know whether the increased utilization is due to the mandates or due to the mere fact that we finally have a publicly documented system that everyone involved knows about and understands?

The fact that artists are pretty much tied to patrons is what we think breaks the system now.  We're going with that theory.  If it works, we can always adjust it IC later on to allow more manipulation here and there.  If it doesn't work, we can also adjust it IC later on to do whatever is deemed necessary.

[Barzalene]

The greatest obstacle to the whole "Shadow Artist System" is the unavailability or lack of capable shadow artists.  In a system where failure is the only way to learn and failure is illegal.... that seems to be a problem.  If there were some system or organization that helped to cultivate and develop young shadow artist talent, I Think that alone would go a long way to helping develop the art of crime in Tuluk.  The documentation is great and people can argue about the finer details of the organization until they are blue int he face, but if the role of the shadow artist is too difficult and/or unrewarding, people just won't play those roles.

Good point.

[Fredd]

I don't like that Artists are not allowed to refuse contracts. I don't like that they can't refuse contracts even if they are employed and life sworn to there employer.

So, for example. I have a nice Kassigargh Noble. I find myself a good artist, and help him grow up to be very skilled, in secret. For my own use. I offer them a life oath, and they take it.
How the doc's are written, a templar can then contract my Artist to kill my own aide, and they cannot refuse, even though they are sworn to my house for there life.

That's one.

I need to go back over an reread the things said about stealing, just to make sure i don't put a foot in my mouth.


I do want to state that my favorite thing to play on arm is a stealth type pc. And i love playing them in Tuluk. I honestly hope staff will listen to concerns.

[Taven]

I don't like that Artists are not allowed to refuse contracts. I don't like that they can't refuse contracts even if they are employed and life sworn to there employer.

So, for example. I have a nice Kassigargh Noble. I find myself a good artist, and help him grow up to be very skilled, in secret. For my own use. I offer them a life oath, and they take it.
How the doc's are written, a templar can then contract my Artist to kill my own aide, and they cannot refuse, even though they are sworn to my house for there life.

It's something that a lot of people (myself included) have commented on. The solution staff offers seems to be that you don't have to be a Master level Shadow Artist. You can stay at the middle level and keep working for your Chosen just fine, without being hired to work against them.

What is currently lacking is a clear understanding of how Shadow Artists progress in rank, which I think is a key point for people with concerns similar to yours.

[Nyr]

I'll admit up front to not having deeply read the full 10 pages (though I plan to work through that).
I'll also start out by expressing gratitude to Nyr for giving this discussion the attention it has received.

While I don't yet know if I like the proposed change - I agree that there is need.  If for nothing else than to quell the desperately OOC "rarr! thief!" rage that leeches into IC play. 

Some initial gut reactions:
*  For existing accomplished master (not necessarily Master) thiefses, resplendent in licenses and exquisite in ability I would hope there would either be a type of grandfathering in of PCs who have been developed under radically different circumstances and expectations or some other way of "opting out" of the new system without too many character-ending consequences. 

That's planned, yes.  If you're already in the artist system as a PC, you'll be brought into the fold of the new system by your own choice or leave it with no problems by your own choice in-game.

          ^As an addition to that, my hope is that this would be introduced as a new thing going forward in Tuluk rather than a retcon.   I think I did pick up on it being the former, though, in one of the scan-throughs.

Correct.

*  While I read in several places of the documents guiding templars, I have played this game too long to have much faith in the power of documentation to guide positions of power.  Even my experience with the existing system has had me in some rather head-scratching situations wondering if I was reading the same docs.

Well, documentation and staff.  I mean it's not like we're going to just trust the documentation to keep templars working, we also assist and respond to their needs/or problems.  Documentation is no replacement for staff oversight, it's just a big help.

*  Do any other Master ranks within the city answer directly (and with forced compliance) to the whims and machinations of the templarate?   The protection of the Shadow is a thin and brightly lit illusion.   Even hidden license inks are whispered and murmured about in the best of times and even broadcast (incomprehensibly so) as an insult by those who should know better (see rar! thief! rage above).   The reality is that the playerbase is simply not big enough to hide in, the OOC thief rage too intense not to leech into game play, and templars too ephemeral/inexperienced to be fully trusted (by the player of a hypothetical Master thief).

Do they answer directly to the templarate...I'm not afraid I'm following.

*  It is hard to play a burg/pickpkt/ass well.   A new look at the guidelines & practices of licensed skullduggery is welcomed.   Knee-jerk reaction to change like this is bound to be negative. . . I'm going to simmer in this sauce a bit more, read Nyr's responses a little deeper, and see what positive feelings bubble up.   

It certainly is.  In the docs it refers to working with a patron, and that's a pretty important part of the process.  At the lower levels, you might find that you NEED a patron to get by, because they have an Estate or a nice apartment to keep you entertained (or to practice certain skills in covertly).  If you want to avoid having a patron and want to go it alone, you might have to find other means of practice.  Given that the templarate would know the roster of artists, they might be given the authority to have one artist train another if both parties are interested/or otherwise unencumbered by partisanship.  We'll be looking at ways to help that situation.

[Law&Order]

I wonder if now is the time to address my concern that it sounds like all it takes is a furious skill grind to rise up quickly in social status as a Shadow Artist, whereas everyone else in every walk of life be they bards, artists, social peons would take ten times longer to achieve the same social rank and caste.  I'm hoping there's much more to the elevation in status than "Wow, that guy can one hit backstab people!" because that would be seriously very shitty to the Seeker Konviwedu who has been around a couple years, performing at every "contest" and roleplaying their ass off.  Just popped into my head, but I think I saw it referenced somewhere in these ten pages...I too am curious how one goes up and down in rank and how it plays to a career of Shadow Artistry.

[Fredd]

It seems more like the artists are more loyal to the templar's, then those that they serve. Like, those are there true employers. And that shouldn't be. Up until these docs come you, it's considered a great thing for an employer to have a suspected master artist in there employ. It would be more of a liability if these doc's are made canon.

Patrons, especially Noble patrons, should always have final say on the work there artist does. They are the one's that feed, water, train, and take responsibility if the Artist's actions come to light. And while it is absolutely fine to say that the Noble should report the artists work to a templar (after all, that's how they know the work was liscensed or not) I don't think the artsists should be under such direct control of the templars.

[Nyr]

6.  If this system is going to be reliant on status and power brokers willing to take the chances, isn't it perhaps time to open up the Surif on a much broader level than is currently being seen in Tuluk?

Frankly, we've been running full steam since an HRPT 2 months ago; we can't change everything overnight even if we do have plans.  Yes.  It would be nice to have another Surif noble, and we'll put up a call, but it might be a bit longer.

I respect that stance of it being necessary to get the bigger pieces in place for the HRPT so the trickle down changes can happen, but there's a major flaw in the "system" be it a new one or an old one, when the positions of influence to guide and direct the system aren't in place, the system will fail because of lack of interest.  This has been referenced previously, http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php?PHPSESSID=cvdf0m5gtnt0eboih29131qus2&topic=46143.msg776056#msg776056 and as a player who has come and gone and come back to playing in Tuluk, we'll say over the last three years, all there really is present is "more of the same".  And I'm not casting doubt on the players who are already there guiding things socially, but there comes a time when new blood is necessary.  I won't say that I've seen all of the attempts to sprinkle new blood into the shark infested waters, but the few I have seen have had almost no longevity and activity, which damages any credibility that a system in place might have.  It's simply impossible to get your footing for the new or old systems without the bedrock to build off of, and in this case, the bedrock is a decent number of active nobles, representation from regular playing GMH and yes, templars.

Right, like I said, it's only been two months, we've done a lot, we're doing more, we'll get new blood in.  Hold your horses. 

I think that the old system, largely unknown and untalked about, so therefore underutilized, would have been fine had there been someone pushing it from behind the scenes, and the new system could be equally promising in the same contest, but without the people who work the puppet strings, nobody will want to play puppets.  Lack of information (DOCS!) and direction (VIP Characters) make any and all systems flawed and hard to play in.  So making up an entirely new system that puts more power into a few pcs, in this case templars, it still doesn't fix the root issue for any changes that will be put into place in Tuluk, and that is....

Nobody will care if it's Noble House A vs Noble House B again, for three straight years, so there will be very few bards in the City, since there are few options on who to impress, and with fewer bards there will be fewer people pissed off by said bards, and with fewer GMH representatives who have longevity and vested interest in the City, there are fewer venues for lower ranked players to get jobs from, which keeps them from spending in the markets, crafting, foraging, buying things from PC traders, and yes...having things that other people want to kill, steal and burgle for...which makes Shadow Artists pointless since they would otherwise only be doing...the exact same thing they are doing now in the new system, except being told to do it by templarate middle-(wo)men.  Which leaves a game which is turning out a higher who list than it has ever seen before with one of it's two MAJOR centers of virtual population floundering...with a shiny, new system that ends up looking just as uninteresting and flawed as the previous one. 

Maybe I've been talking just to myself here, but yes, we have plans to do more, we are going to open up another noble call, and we are going to work on the rest of the documentation for the city.  I don't know what else you want here.  I get it, you don't like the system and you didn't like it before and you wanted it to be changed in a different way than what we are doing.  We're going to disagree on that point, then.

Don't micromanage the system and put barriers and restrictions in place to streamline something that wasn't really broken, just underutilized. 

It was broken.  We may disagree, but we on staff think it was broken.

The HRPT's are shaking things up from the top down...why not make the bold statement of shaking things in the middle a bit too?

That's what we're doing.  Maybe not both at the same time but artists and those that should want to hire them and their prospective victims are definitely part of the middle.

[Fredd]

I wonder if now is the time to address my concern that it sounds like all it takes is a furious skill grind to rise up quickly in social status as a Shadow Artist, whereas everyone else in every walk of life be they bards, artists, social peons would take ten times longer to achieve the same social rank and caste.  I'm hoping there's much more to the elevation in status than "Wow, that guy can one hit backstab people!" because that would be seriously very shitty to the Seeker Konviwedu who has been around a couple years, performing at every "contest" and roleplaying their ass off.  Just popped into my head, but I think I saw it referenced somewhere in these ten pages...I too am curious how one goes up and down in rank and how it plays to a career of Shadow Artistry.

An artists rank has nothing to do with there actual skill levels. I've had Artists with midling skill levels do Master level work. It's realy about Rp, planning, creativity, and not getting caught. Granted, coded skills help you not get caught. But there is always more then one way of doing things, and usually, the one that's 100% hard coded, is the most unsafe.

[Nyr]

You know, for a city where people live much longer than in Allanak, I'm not entirely certain if a lack of people and longevity is the problem here.

Then what is it then? Is making the system even harder and less welcoming to enjoy the answer?

I'd love it if there were more shadow artists, or usage thereof, it should be a relatively easy process and I think it's so ICly restrictive and OOCly unappealing that if getting more active shadow artists is the goal, the changes will not make that happen. They would be better shadow artists though, so I can see the appeal of that.

Existing shadow artists (should they stay on as such after this change) will find more to do.  We'll also have more sponsored role calls in Tuluk, giving them more higher-ranking people to get stuff to work from.  It's not going to magickally fix things overnight and it may need more tweaking, and after this weekend and during next week, it will get more tweaking.

[Nyr]

The greatest obstacle to the whole "Shadow Artist System" is the unavailability or lack of capable shadow artists.  In a system where failure is the only way to learn and failure is illegal.... that seems to be a problem.  If there were some system or organization that helped to cultivate and develop young shadow artist talent, I Think that alone would go a long way to helping develop the art of crime in Tuluk.  The documentation is great and people can argue about the finer details of the organization until they are blue int he face, but if the role of the shadow artist is too difficult and/or unrewarding, people just won't play those roles.

Providing that training/cultivation in a non-cheesy way should be a goal in the city as a whole, and we'll see what we can do to make that more of a reality.

[Fredd]

You know, for a city where people live much longer than in Allanak, I'm not entirely certain if a lack of people and longevity is the problem here.

Then what is it then? Is making the system even harder and less welcoming to enjoy the answer?

I'd love it if there were more shadow artists, or usage thereof, it should be a relatively easy process and I think it's so ICly restrictive and OOCly unappealing that if getting more active shadow artists is the goal, the changes will not make that happen. They would be better shadow artists though, so I can see the appeal of that.

Existing shadow artists (should they stay on as such after this change) will find more to do.  We'll also have more sponsored role calls in Tuluk, giving them more higher-ranking people to get stuff to work from.  It's not going to magickally fix things overnight and it may need more tweaking, and after this weekend and during next week, it will get more tweaking.

More sponsored roles in Tuluk... I shall be waiting good sir.

That being said. I still think Patrons should have final say on there employees Shadow Work. And in all honesty, this gives a very tangible benefit to being an Artist with an actual patron.

[Nyr]

I think the idea of an overhaul is a fine one. However, it begs the question: Why bother? The main movers and shakers have been the same couple for well over a real-time year, and their conflicts are the exact same conflicts they've been for the entire time. Granted - they're played well. But if all you're going to see is Noble's Aide #92 get assassinated, while Bard #994.a sings yet another song insulting Chosen Doodah's shoe-size, and the ninth GMH family member to overcharge the templar's favorite Legionairre again gets his Master Crafter's apartment robbed - well then nothing is changing. The results are the same. A whole lot of overhauling for basically nothing.

I think that if you think this, you're in for some interesting times in Tuluk in the future; this is only one facet of things and while it can be talked about freely due to how it is going to be implemented, plot-based stuff is going to just happen in-game.

The only difference is, there might be more "official shadow artists" committing the crimes, and fewer "unlicensed criminals" doing it. Licensed or unlicensed, the same job is being done, the same results, the same effort.

I guess we'll see how it works, then!

Also, I think that the whole "pranking and insulting" end of contractual agreements with Shadow Artists needs to be - not the perview of Shadow Artists at all. That lies squarely upon the shoulders of the Bards of Tuluk and I'm guessing the Master Bards would not take kindly to having their toes stepped on by some first-rank Templar's pet prankster.

Bards tend to prank and insult in a way that is different from property damage and leaving a scrab head in someone's bed as a warning or threat.

If you were to do away with the bardic circles entirely, then that'd change my opinion of that particular aspect of the docs. If you took that aspect away from the bardic circles, and left them otherwise intact, I feel it would turn them into nothing more than rank entertainers with an iso apartment house. So I don't think retconning the bardic circles would be a viable choice. But without making that choice, you still leave that part of the new overhaul stepping over the line into Bardic territory.

Probably not that much.  Again, bards have never been used to this end.  They want to be KNOWN for their pranks, not unknown for striking terror in the heart of an enemy.  Not saying a bard can't be an artist or vice versa (in fact it'd make an interesting amount of personal roleplay) but they have two different interests.

[Law&Order]

Right, like I said, it's only been two months, we've done a lot, we're doing more, we'll get new blood in.  Hold your horses. 

I recognized you were doing a lot, I was simply pointing out that it's also about what has been done as well as what will be done.  My horses are quite held, I'm just trying to offer a point of view on what I think it will take to help make things work, which I thought was the point of opening up the discussion.  No harm, no foul there.

Maybe I've been talking just to myself here, but yes, we have plans to do more, we are going to open up another noble call, and we are going to work on the rest of the documentation for the city.  I don't know what else you want here.  I get it, you don't like the system and you didn't like it before and you wanted it to be changed in a different way than what we are doing.  We're going to disagree on that point, then.

I never actually said I don't like the system, new or old, and that I am demanding changes.  I'm simply stating that, my opinion is, that in order for it to work, you're going to need it to happen with people who can facilitate it, rather than a small army of newly inked pick pockets and hitmen.  Ten pages makes it clear you're not talking just to yourself, but there are quite a few people with vested interest in current and future character concepts who take some pride in knowing what they are doing.  Any changes made for the better and playability are always going to be for the greater good, no matter what levels of dissent there are or hurt feelings.  It's about a tune up on a twenty some year old engine.  These things have to happen to keep it alive, and I respect the work that's going into it.  Please don't try to decide what my opinion is on something based on questions I have or reservations I have with a situation as it is currently and the recent history that I've seen.  I do believe this system can work and work well, I just worry about how well it will function under the setup as it is.

It was broken.  We may disagree, but we on staff think it was broken.

I agree that the current setup is quite broken and not working correctly and as I stated earlier, I do see the need for the change.

That's what we're doing.  Maybe not both at the same time but artists and those that should want to hire them and their prospective victims are definitely part of the middle.

As someone who appreciates the social climbing aspect of the game, I appreciate the work and effort going into that and look forward to seeing the changes happen.  I just hope that there's enough player resources available to really make it flourish.

[Barzalene]

The greatest obstacle to the whole "Shadow Artist System" is the unavailability or lack of capable shadow artists.  In a system where failure is the only way to learn and failure is illegal.... that seems to be a problem.  If there were some system or organization that helped to cultivate and develop young shadow artist talent, I Think that alone would go a long way to helping develop the art of crime in Tuluk.  The documentation is great and people can argue about the finer details of the organization until they are blue int he face, but if the role of the shadow artist is too difficult and/or unrewarding, people just won't play those roles.

Providing that training/cultivation in a non-cheesy way should be a goal in the city as a whole, and we'll see what we can do to make that more of a reality.

I suggest the Malik Fizz School of Gardening and Etiquette.