Catching up, Part 3: City Elves

[Quirk]

Contrary to some suggestions in this thread, I don't think the alien mindset is the problem. Rather, I think that the problem is two-fold: firstly, that the roleplay docs themselves are already too crude in their description of the elven dedication to theft even to use to build a static world of NPCs, and secondly, that crude as they are, in some quarters they are distilled further to: "All elves are thieves. People hate them."

So let's look at the docs.

All elves have a cultural bent toward both wandering and thievery.

In elven culture, a gifted thief is given the same respect as a gifted artisan would be given in a human culture. In this sense, robbery is considered a precious skill among elves - it is something to be cultivated, something to hope your children possess, something which you yourself strive after, and the reason you look up to those more gifted than you.

Does this force all elves to be thieves? Not in the sense of it being a career, no. It's a cultural tendency, a value. It's not the only cultural value they have, and it may not even be the strongest cultural tendency in many tribes, but it is a cultural tendency which is universal across all elves. Successful theft wins you respect as an artist across a whole race; but not everyone can dedicate their lives to art.

But, beyond this:

But theft is more than simply stealing a pouch of coins off of a passing noble's belt. A clever pickpocket is indeed a fine example of an elven thief - but there is so much more to the art. To an elf, theft is: "Taking anything that would not be given if the possessor knew all of the facts." So you can see that elven thievery can include as many situations as your imagination can conjure - even spies and assassins can be thieves.

Spies and assassins are thieves? We're encouraged to stretch the definition of theft here. We're encouraged to move our minds away not only from the coin pouch but from the necessity of physical theft altogether.

An elven merchant will try to get much more for their wares than they think they deserve, because this is the basis of the theft. But of course, a clever customer might bargain his way into paying less than what the wares are worth, in which case the elf would think that they had been stolen from - a great source of angst for an elf! This makes elven merchants go to no ends to make sure that the customer never gets what he or she paid for.

So, should we bug every elven NPC seller of goods that gives you the item you see listed? This last sentence is hyperbole, and an excellent example of why trying to use these docs as some kind of paint-by-numbers way to roleplay will lead you astray. How could any merchant stay in business by never giving the customer what they paid for? It's a recipe to crash and burn. The docs are trying to communicate a tendency that has to be more nuanced to be realistic and sustainable.

The world we actually see, the NPC world that has been built, has elven merchants and mercenaries and whores and many other things. Most of them are supporting themselves in ways that the city-states they inhabit would consider legal. More than this: knowing how substantial a fraction of the population elves make up - almost half of free commoners - we're forced to conclude that the average elf is a productive member of the city-state. How would the city even be able to run were half its free citizens pickpockets and burglars roaming the alleys at night? And how would elves be tolerated as a race were they so entirely impossible to deal with? The docs currently, in trying to focus on how elves are different from other races, fail to show how much is the same. Elven ideals and aesthetics are alien to human culture, but the world they live in is the same; the compromises humans have to make to their own ideals and aesthetics to get by will have counterparts, must have counterparts. And there needs to be space for reasonable racial variation: the cowardly elf who finds the act of theft too unnerving, but has to pay lip service to its importance; the tribeless elf who's lived too long with humans and is coming to identify with their ideals, much as a human among elves might learn to steal and boast; the elf who, more motivated by the approbation of others than by internal drive, steals only a little but boasts a great deal; the elf who has discovered, to their joy and disbelief, that gossip collected for free can be exchanged for the items they desire as well as living expenses (what a scam!).

What makes this relatively hard to explore is that PCs are unrepresentative of the population. The tribeless PC elf comes out of chargen with a large quantity of sid and the thought "if I do not steal I am not an elf" echoing in her head. The life that her VNPC past self lived is glossed into a hazy notion that she has always lived out of the pockets of passersby. So she helps herself to the pockets of passersby, falls foul of a viciously overbearing crim code, and perishes. But her VNPC past life is more likely to be a tale of gratifications unmet and a living made by distressingly honest means; if theft is a test of courage, then she has likely already learned not to be foolhardy, has found limits to that courage, and likely tests it largely where she can be certain it will not interfere with her living or her well-being. Elves are supposed to be smart. Those foolhardy enough to chance the wrath of citizens and militia through open and frequent crimes should be a small minority.

And, of course, from a PC point of view, the attitude to elves is then built on elven PCs that have been encountered, not the NPCs and VNPCs - who, in fairness, are mostly treated as wholly blameless. "All elves are thieves" is not a lazy maxim with a core of truth about the elven psyche, but a much more literal description of the most common PC guilds. The distaste is more OOC than IC: your human character probably grew up on streets where elves lived, maybe played with them as children, learned how to co-exist with them despite valid reasons for distrust and knowledge of your own racial superiority, but when the unknown elf stands next to you at the bar it's all "aw crap, a pickpocket, best close my pack and be rude until he goes away".

I think we can do better than this.

[spicemustflow]

This awesome post brought a tear to my elven eye.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Damn. Quirk is back for really real.

[BleakOne]

So... we're arguing for the elf docs to be changed?

I mean, if the docs state "elves make sure you never get what you pay for" don't we have to abide by that, even if we creatively interpret it? In the end, there's no such thing as a completely honest elf.

For example, an elf bartender might not be selling shitmugs as ale, but he could convince himself of the 'scam' he's running by using smaller cups for the same price, mixing sand in with the spice he sells, or adding thirst-inducing seasonings to the food he serves.

Just saying we have wiggle room in the docs, but in the end we do have to abide by them. Not saying that anyone here was saying we should ignore docs, just saying my two sids.

[Patuk]

Things that are all very much true and which I agree with completely.

Again, I like this post. There is one problem with trying to portray city elves this realistically, though.

You're just going to end up starving en masse.

City elf PC's are the thieving scum that they are not simply because their players make them one-dimensional and focused on theft all the time, it's also because there is very little a PC elf can do to stay alive in a city. Go look at the Gaj crowds someday; chances are that a majority of the people there are grebbers, hunters, militiamen and GMH employees. Then there's the aides, whores, and independent traveling merchants. Anyone wanting to play any of these character types cannot do so sheerly for playing a city-elf. To go on with the example of basketweaving, yes, you can play a basketweaving elf, no, you don't have to turn him into some sort of kleptomaniac who steals outright everything everywhere, but the fact of the matter is that the market is so saturated by people who are unrestricted in their traveling and resource gathering that you're not going to make two 'sid to rub together at all. I completely agree that there is far more to the elven mindset than STEAL STEAL STEAL, and that elves have their own thoughts and feelings as well, but with the restrictions C-elves get and with the poor benefits they get in return, it currently simply isn't viable to play them outside a scant few types of roles.

[Quirk]

So... we're arguing for the elf docs to be changed?

I mean, if the docs state "elves make sure you never get what you pay for" don't we have to abide by that, even if we creatively interpret it? In the end, there's no such thing as a completely honest elf.

The NPCs don't abide by it. And frankly, giving the docs the weight of religious text puts a terrifying burden on their writers. One sentence of whimsy grows into iron law. I'm not saying "ignore the docs", but rather suggesting that we try not to adopt an overly literal interpretation of every line.

And no, of course no elf is completely honest; but their dishonesty is constrained by consequences. One way or another, the elf has to adapt to his circumstances. Perhaps that means seizing on some aspect of his living and using it as reassurance, a salve to pride: "hah, the idiots pay me for a full day, but I slack off whenever they're not watching me" or "hah, if the weak-legs knew where I got this stuff, they'd be astonished at how much I'm marking it up". Being simultaneously a proud race and one in poor circumstances forces such rationalisations and justifications: the need to believe you're getting one over on the humans when in reality it's clear they hold all the cards. I think though there will always be some lurking awareness of these concessions made to satisfy pride, and if an opportunity arises where the elf can pull off an epic scam and walk away consequence free, the allure of living the dream is going to be a nigh-unstoppable pull.

To address Patuk: yes, this is absolutely true, and in particular a tribeless city-elf is hugely disadvantaged - less flexible than a human, and lacking in any kind of support network. Tribes have to play a large part in making city elves attractive to play. The independent merchant and hunter can ride anywhere, but they never have any guarantee their employees or partners won't betray them. Elves have that guarantee with their tribe, and the ability to utilise their talents in concert to substantial effect. If the basket-weaver's tribe-brother brings him dye, and a tribe-sister buys materials in bulk, and another again manages lucrative contracts with organisations too snobby to employ elves but willing to quietly resell goods made by them... I think it's possible to arrive at a more level playing field, where survival might be a little harder, but pains and gains are averaged out over the tribe and there's a sense of belonging. If we ever got to VNPC representation levels among PCs, we would need a bunch of antagonistic tribes, though: one or two elven tribes holding almost half a city playerbase would swiftly become way too influential in PC-land.

Sadly it's not easy to see how we could get from where we are now to where we'd need to be solely through IC action, unless a little more latitude was granted with regard to starting tribes.

[Nyr]

NPC = non playable character.

Of course they do not abide by the docs. They don't play. When they are animated they do. No documentation should be based on what NPCs do. At best, they are scripted to do certain things because code is limited. We cannot code documentation and roleplay nuance into NPCs.

[Quirk]

NPC = non playable character.

Of course they do not abide by the docs. They don't play. When they are animated they do. No documentation should be based on what NPCs do. At best, they are scripted to do certain things because code is limited. We cannot code documentation and roleplay nuance into NPCs.

Well, then, to be clearer: the building of the world necessitates confronting questions that can be skimmed over in the docs. Elven merchant NPCs exist selling fake treasure maps and shoddy fare. Elven merchant NPCs also exist that sell genuinely useful items, sometimes even necessities. These latter NPCs do not have to be elven, but they are.

We could have street after street of hidden elven NPCs stealing from passing PCs via some script, and every elven merchant NPC selling things that seemed attractive, but were useless. This would not be out of line with the city elf roleplay docs. It would be pretty self-evidently stupid if we paused to think why the templarate would permit this to happen, how these merchant NPCs are meant to make a living, thought at all about how it could work as a system - but it would not be out of line with the docs. The world as built reflects an understanding which is perfectly in line with the spirit of the docs, but is already more nuanced, because it has to deal with specifics: what sort of echoes reflect the behaviour of the VNPCs in this place at this time? What does the elven presence in this marketplace look like? How do the vast numbers of elves in the cities actually live?

The docs line I highlighted - that the customer never gets what they paid for - contains a problem that is immediately obvious to the imm building an NPC shopkeeper. If the items sold appear to be of use but are not, PCs will buy from the shopkeeper at most once. This reflects a general reality that a business that never delivers is at best a flash in the pan. And so we have elven NPCs which sell items which are exactly what they appear to be - because, in reality, the need to make a living in an ongoing fashion will force such merchants to find a level of misbehaviour which lies within their customers' tolerance. And indeed, what's the problem with an elf selling an item that's exactly as it appears to be, but at a price that will make customers with no other option grumble, or which can easily be obtained for less with a little knowledge the customer lacks? In all these cases the elf can feel she's getting one over on the customer. The mindset is preserved, though the hyperbole of the original line is not.

The city elf docs don't attempt to position theft sustainably. It provides a sense of accomplishment through "ever increasing challenges". This is a bad recipe for PC survival, never mind a model for the behaviour of a VNPC population. The claims made are too bold, too brazen to support literal interpretation. I would suggest that the way the world has been built - NPCs, room descriptions, echoes - exhibits a damn sight more roleplay nuance and thought for the realities of daily life for the different races composing the population than currently exists in the city elf docs. And so, when the rhetorical flourishes of the docs are treated like a straitjacket, I think we end up with a problem.

[Quirk]

To be fair to the city elf docs, here, I think they do a particular job quite well: outlining the elven mindset in broad strokes in an engaging manner, with a little bit of analogy and exaggeration to make reading light and easy.

They don't address how a proud race deals with being second-class citizens. They don't address how the elven drive for thievery must be tempered by the more basic needs of survival. They don't address the consequences of elves being such a numerous race or shed light on how they make themselves useful enough to keep round. All of these things would be good to address somewhere, but there's a danger that doing so in the main help would turn a page of text into something resembling an academic journal and turn newbies' hair white.

But the flip side of this is that I think we have to use them as a basis for understanding what the elven mindset is and what their goals are, while also understanding that they don't address many of the questions round how elves fit into the world, and that they haven't been worded with the care of a research paper. I see their job as being to describe elven aspirations, not adjudicate all the messy boundaries of these with reality.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Honestly, I feel like the stealing nuance for elves should be portrayed in a different light.  Instead of indicating that all elves are thieves, all elves should be portrayed as looking to take advantage in any way possible at all times. That sort of attitude covers stealing and also all sorts of other situations. It's also easier to wrap your head around.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Honestly, I feel like the stealing nuance for elves should be portrayed in a different light.  Instead of indicating that all elves are thieves, all elves should be portrayed as looking to take advantage in any way possible at all times. That sort of attitude covers stealing and also all sorts of other situations. It's also easier to wrap your head around.

Pretty nearly all humans are 'opportunists' though. This would render that difference almost nonexistant, if it were interpreted as something as simple as opportunism. Opportunism isn't thievery, it's self-preservation.

[Quirk]

Pretty nearly all humans are 'opportunists' though. This would render that difference almost nonexistant, if it were interpreted as something as simple as opportunism. Opportunism isn't thievery, it's self-preservation.

Yeah, agreed. With elves, I think there's more of a game to it. It's all about taking something you shouldn't, with pretty wide leeway over what "something" is. It's your very favourite game, and you're a sore loser.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I dunno about that. For example, a human might give another human a drink in the desert for free. An elf might give that guy a drjnk too, but never for free. Ever. For that ring, for your sister's nookie, for five sid and ten if  he hasn't known you for ten years. That's not stealing, that's an inability NOT to be an opportunist, which I think would be more playable and ICly plausable in relation to the race surviving in such numbers in cities run by humans. Its not about humans not being elven in nature, it's about elves not being able to not be elven, and yet that nature not leading to their extermination, because to me, if every elf is a thief, I don't see how they are looked at as anything better than mages, and they don't get the protection mages get from Templars.

[Nyr]

NPC = non playable character.

Of course they do not abide by the docs. They don't play. When they are animated they do. No documentation should be based on what NPCs do. At best, they are scripted to do certain things because code is limited. We cannot code documentation and roleplay nuance into NPCs.

Well, then, to be clearer: the building of the world necessitates confronting questions that can be skimmed over in the docs. Elven merchant NPCs exist selling fake treasure maps and shoddy fare. Elven merchant NPCs also exist that sell genuinely useful items, sometimes even necessities. These latter NPCs do not have to be elven, but they are.

So they are.  How much of a leap is it that the NPCs already sell things for a higher price than they would be normally (or they're getting them for cheaper than you think they are)?  The issue is that you feel the docs don't back up the elven merchant NPCs.  The reality is that the docs are for players, not NPCs.  The gameworld in the form of these NPCs backs up the documentation to a certain extent, but to go so far as to bug every elven merchant because you could choose to haggle your way to a "great" deal would be a bit much.  Go haggle an elven PC, you'll get far more enjoyment out of it!

I'm not saying we can't do more with elven merchant NPCs.  I am saying it's probably not a priority (or even on the list of top 30 things that irk players enough that staff should make it a priority to fix sooner rather than later).

We could have street after street of hidden elven NPCs stealing from passing PCs via some script, and every elven merchant NPC selling things that seemed attractive, but were useless.

The former would probably be exceptionally annoying for the player experience.  The latter could be done but probably isn't a high priority because it is not a gamebreaking thing (and can be pretty easily avoided).

The docs line I highlighted - that the customer never gets what they paid for - contains a problem that is immediately obvious to the imm building an NPC shopkeeper. If the items sold appear to be of use but are not, PCs will buy from the shopkeeper at most once. This reflects a general reality that a business that never delivers is at best a flash in the pan. And so we have elven NPCs which sell items which are exactly what they appear to be - because, in reality, the need to make a living in an ongoing fashion will force such merchants to find a level of misbehaviour which lies within their customers' tolerance. And indeed, what's the problem with an elf selling an item that's exactly as it appears to be, but at a price that will make customers with no other option grumble, or which can easily be obtained for less with a little knowledge the customer lacks? In all these cases the elf can feel she's getting one over on the customer. The mindset is preserved, though the hyperbole of the original line is not.

The elven NPCs could (and probably do) sell things at a higher price.  You do not know what their original cost is on those things they are selling.

The city elf docs don't attempt to position theft sustainably. It provides a sense of accomplishment through "ever increasing challenges". This is a bad recipe for PC survival, never mind a model for the behaviour of a VNPC population. The claims made are too bold, too brazen to support literal interpretation. I would suggest that the way the world has been built - NPCs, room descriptions, echoes - exhibits a damn sight more roleplay nuance and thought for the realities of daily life for the different races composing the population than currently exists in the city elf docs. And so, when the rhetorical flourishes of the docs are treated like a straitjacket, I think we end up with a problem.

This is an interesting point.  I suppose the response here is that we don't write racial documentation to show nuance, opportunity, and freedom for those roles.  (Side note:  I say "write" though most of that is legacy from years ago and recently retooled in a few places for the new website, so maybe I mean it in the past tense.)  We write racial documentation to restrict and throw up boundaries.  Why?  It is because the documentation is definitely slanted towards an unfamiliar audience--as if that audience does not understand these things.  A player must understand the norms for a race in order to play it.  Once they understand the norms well enough, they can then explore the boundaries of those norms and learn what exceptions might exist.  Consider what we say about desert elves (Wug linked it in another thread).

So you're at the level of experienced elven roleplayer and you feel the documentation out there in a few spots is really hyperbolic.  You are absolutely right, it totally is.  That's not a bad thing.

[Quirk]

So you're at the level of experienced elven roleplayer and you feel the documentation out there in a few spots is really hyperbolic.  You are absolutely right, it totally is.  That's not a bad thing.

It's not a bad thing; I totally agree. It engages and cuts to the spirit of the mindset cleanly. I'm just worried by people getting the notion that statements added to heighten effect are things we have to "abide by".

In my ideal world, there would be both an introduction for the unfamiliar player and more detailed explanations which fill in understanding of how the VNPC world operates, and how elven sociopathy has to bend to placate the hostile society round it. (My ideal world's awesome, by the way: infinite imms with infinite free time.) Sadly we aren't in an ideal world. However, would there be any staff interest in player attempts to help with this? I think there's some player appetite to figure out how elves can sensibly co-exist alongside humans, and what sort of accomodations are being made by the VNPCs. While I'm more than willing to volunteer my time, I'm aware I'm a mouthy and opinionated sort who you might want taking a back seat in all of this; that's fine; but is there room generally for players with experience of elven roleplay to contribute to fleshing out additional racial roleplay documentation?

[Jingo]

It isn't because the elven mindset is hard to grasp. It's because they have too many disadvantages in the metagame. We should really be clear.

I.E. I can't play a tough ass mcrgrizzled journyman piercing warrior as a city elf. Simply because I can't go outside to hunt.

Unless I go spree killer 'rinth mcgee, which IMHO is a magnitude worse.

[AmandaGreathouse]

It isn't because the elven mindset is hard to grasp. It's because they have too many disadvantages in the metagame. We should really be clear.

I.E. I can't play a tough ass mcrgrizzled journyman piercing warrior as a city elf. Simply because I can't go outside to hunt.

Unless I go spree killer 'rinth mcgee, which IMHO is a magnitude worse.

Not to sound like an asshole, but there's a reason for the Byn, man. And why they allow elves in. Kurac also hires elves into the fist. There are clans where you can get combat training even as an elf.

[Bogre]

TANSTAAFL

I've always been more intimidated by the BAMF elven warriors than I have the random human/dwarf/half elf sparred up hunter char #40. Because you -know- the elf doesn't GAF about you or being nice.

[Norcal]

C elves are underplayed.  This is too bad.  There are restrictions but there is also lots of opportunity for in depth and fun rp. One of the things that currently makes playing a c elf more difficult is the lack of other c elves. More people should try them out.

In some clans for SOME PCs to venture outside the walls as part of their daily lives.  They might not like doing this IC but the possibility is there. Also there is opportunity for a c elf warrior to spar and train up in some elven clans. 

[HavokBlue]

C elves are underplayed.  This is too bad.  There are restrictions but there is also lots of opportunity for in depth and fun rp. One of the things that currently makes playing a c elf more difficult is the lack of other c elves. More people should try them out.

In some clans for SOME PCs to venture outside the walls as part of their daily lives.  They might not like doing this IC but the possibility is there. Also there is opportunity for a c elf warrior to spar and train up in some elven clans. 

As of right now there are only three clan options for city elves though. Akai Sjir, Byn, and Kurac. Only one of those is even an elven tribe.

[hyzhenhok]

C elves are underplayed.  This is too bad.  There are restrictions but there is also lots of opportunity for in depth and fun rp. One of the things that currently makes playing a c elf more difficult is the lack of other c elves. More people should try them out.

In some clans for SOME PCs to venture outside the walls as part of their daily lives.  They might not like doing this IC but the possibility is there. Also there is opportunity for a c elf warrior to spar and train up in some elven clans. 

As of right now there are only three clan options for city elves though. Akai Sjir, Byn, and Kurac. Only one of those is even an elven tribe.

Did the Jaxa Pah close? Website says they're open.

[Malken]

C elves are underplayed.  This is too bad.  There are restrictions but there is also lots of opportunity for in depth and fun rp. One of the things that currently makes playing a c elf more difficult is the lack of other c elves. More people should try them out.

In some clans for SOME PCs to venture outside the walls as part of their daily lives.  They might not like doing this IC but the possibility is there. Also there is opportunity for a c elf warrior to spar and train up in some elven clans. 

As of right now there are only three clan options for city elves though. Akai Sjir, Byn, and Kurac. Only one of those is even an elven tribe.

Did the Jaxa Pah close? Website says they're open.

Yeah, tried to join a week or so ago and was told I couldn't, not even just be "clanned" to it for 'rinth purposes.

Someone should send in a request to have this changed on the website.

[BleakOne]

The ninja-closing of the Jaxa has been confirmed. I believe it is not intended to be a long absence, however.

[Norcal]

C elves are underplayed.  This is too bad.  There are restrictions but there is also lots of opportunity for in depth and fun rp. One of the things that currently makes playing a c elf more difficult is the lack of other c elves. More people should try them out.

In some clans for SOME PCs to venture outside the walls as part of their daily lives.  They might not like doing this IC but the possibility is there. Also there is opportunity for a c elf warrior to spar and train up in some elven clans. 

As of right now there are only three clan options for city elves though. Akai Sjir, Byn, and Kurac. Only one of those is even an elven tribe.

That is true, but I don't think Jaxa Pah are closed permanently.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I think that the interesting part about this all is that even though elves are the second most populous race in the world, they are so sorely under represented both by players and via playable elf-centric clans. In IC reality, seeing an elf should be more common than seeing a dwarf. That's not always the case, at all.