Catching up, Part 3: City Elves

[Quirk]

Tuluk (350,000)
219,000 humans (50% are slaves) (62.6% of total)
108,500 elves (10% are slaves) (31% of Total)
3,500 dwarves (65% are slaves) (1% of Total)
3,500 half-giants (80% are slaves) (1% of Total)
7,000 half-elves (40% are slaves) (2% of total)
1,500 muls (98% are slaves) (0.4% of total)
7,000 unknown/other/mutant (25% are slaves) (2% of Total)

Allanak (481,880)
310,000 humans (50% are slaves) (150,000 free) (64.3% of total)
150,000 elves (10% are slaves) (135,500 free) (31.1% of total)
7,500 dwarves (65% are slaves) (2,600 free) (1.8% of total)
3,800 half-giants (20% are slaves) (3,150 free) (0.8% of total)
5,800 half-elves (40% are slaves) (3,400 free) (1.3% of total)
1980 muls (99% are slaves) (18 free) (0.4% of total)
2,800 unknown/other/mutant (40% are slaves) (1,400 free) (~0.6% of total)

Tuluk's numbers have trended upwards since those figures were compiled (2006) though more recent events may have brought it back down; Allanak's numbers have trended downwards since those figures were compiled (2008) and recent events may have brought it down further.

Red Storm's population:  less than Allanak by a great magnitude. 
Luir's Outpost population:  Equal to or (more likely) less than Red Storm's population.  Varies more often than RS.  Variation depends on many factors.

So, how's the second most populous race on Zalanthas doing? I always felt the scheming, tricky elven underclass deserved more PC representation. From the docs and previous comments made on slavery and population, it seemed to me as though the reality of life for most free commoners involved many daily dealings with free commoner elves, who were too numerous to disregard: a disagreeable but necessary negotiation of traps and plots. I don't think I've ever seen an Armageddon which quite lives up to this picture for me, as yet, though I have a vague impression that things might be better than I remember them being way back.

Some questions!

• Do city elves feel as well-represented by PCs where you are as the numbers suggest they ought to be? If not, why do you think this is?
• Do you feel human distaste for elves is overdone, about right, or underplayed?
• Do you want to see more city elves in game?
• If yes, what would encourage you to play city elves more?
• For veterans: are you more or less likely to play a city elf than you were a few years back?
• Are there ways you'd like to see typical interaction between humans and elves improved?

[Patuk]

So, how's the second most populous race on Zalanthas doing? I always felt the scheming, tricky elven underclass deserved more PC representation. From the docs and previous comments made on slavery and population, it seemed to me as though the reality of life for most free commoners involved many daily dealings with free commoner elves, who were too numerous to disregard: a disagreeable but necessary negotiation of traps and plots. I don't think I've ever seen an Armageddon which quite lives up to this picture for me, as yet, though I have a vague impression that things might be better than I remember them being way back.

Some questions!

• Do city elves feel as well-represented by PCs where you are as the numbers suggest they ought to be? If not, why do you think this is?

[/quote]

No.

Not even close, even. Jesus. Commoner PC's outnumber the elves ten to one and then some.

I've talked about this over the teamspeak a number of times, and it seems that the combination of being confined to one place, the alien mindset elves have, the inability to join any clans and the isolation coming from creating an independent character who can't leave the city are the major cultprits in c-elves being underplayed.

• Do you feel human distaste for elves is overdone, about right, or underplayed?

Depends on the characters in question. I've seen all three happen, but one thing I do find annoying is that people seem to go all-out on their hate much more than is advisable in the case with elves. Though humans still form the majority of any city's population, they don't outnumber elves by a large enough margin that you can treat elves like utter dirt, look down on them everytime they pass by and get away with it. Especially considering that the majority of elves has a large amount of contacts through their tribe, treating elves that badly would get any non-pc human in trouble real quick.

• Do you want to see more city elves in game?

Yes. It's one of the things where the whole 'be the change' thing actually applies, too.

• If yes, what would encourage you to play city elves more?

More attention being paid to city elves in general. City elves can't join any clan that isn't the Byn or Kurac, can't really leave their cities, are hated by all the other PC's, and are hampered by the crimcode turning every soldier into a guard straight from TES Oblivion the moment you do something funny. Just having more things to do would already make elves a lot more playable, in my opinion. I'd also love it if there were to be a southside Allanaki elven clan, and a clan without some of the more outlandish features the Akai Sjir have(which I can't comment on in this place.) I also realise that it is difficult, but a crimcode overhaul would make elves far more playable, too. Even though places like the Gaj have echoes of soldiers idly standing by as people get beaten to a pulp and carried off to god knows where, even though the authorities are supposedly corrupt and uncaring about what goes on in the poor districts, the npc soldiers are as dangerous there as elsewhere. I could see elves getting their family together to outright lynch people who've been too vicious to their family lately; I'd also imagine things such as muggings and thuggery to be commonplace in the Allanaki common quarter and the Tuluki Warrens. Yet in-game they aren't, partially because many characters are strong at combat themselves, and also because on an OOC level, everybody knows how vicious the response to crime is.

• For veterans: are you more or less likely to play a city elf than you were a few years back?
• Are there ways you'd like to see typical interaction between humans and elves improved?

Only the aforementioned thing about recognising that elves are with many, and a vindictive sorts, too. Don't treat them as if they would pose no threat at all.


[/list]

[AreteX]

1.  Do city elves feel as well-represented by PCs where you are as the numbers suggest they ought to be? If not, why do you think this is?

No.  They don't really.  It isn't even close like someone else said.  I have attempted to play city elves, and I think one of the reasons is that having a vNPC tribe is great, but often just not as satisfying as playing with other players and actually having interaction that is not made up inside of your own head.  If there were more role calls for tribal families in the player announcements then I think more people would be all about it.

2. Do you feel human distaste for elves is overdone, about right, or underplayed?

The IC does seem like it is being done well, but the OOC level of distaste is a noticeable problem.  What I mean is I will walk into a tavern and have everyone do their immediate look(which happens often for anyone) but then I will notice 3-4 people watching me, or people paying particular attention to their bags now, closing backpacks, cloaks, bat-belts so I don't steal their batarangs.  ICly, they have been sitting in a tavern for half a day with their stuff hanging all out, but as soon as a PC elf walks into the room they close up their bags.  ICly I love being stared at, punched, watched, suspected... but on an OOC level it is sometimes lame to see the preventative measures that really don't belong just because I am a PC.  Remember, there are a bunch of elves around you already...

3.  Do you want to see more city elves in game?

Yes.  This is one of the reasons I have tried playing them much more often now in my rotation of characters.

4.  If yes, what would encourage you to play city elves more?

The ability to role-app into tribes more easily.  There are just not enough options for city-elves to "belong".  This could also be something of "be the change" sort of thing with players making their own tribes, and then trying to get staff support for allowing other players to join, which eventually turns it into a player-run clan that isn't in the 'Rinth.  That would be great.

5.  For Veterans:  Are you more or less likely to play a city elf than you were a few years back?

I am not really a veteran, but I am more likely to play a city-elf only because I find them intriguing and I will continue to do so.

6.  Are there ways you'd like to see typical interaction between humans and elves improved?

Yes, but they are mostly OOC things I have noticed that I have mentioned already.  ICly I see a good interactions between elves and other races, specifically humans.

[mattrious]

Do city elves feel as well-represented by PCs where you are as the numbers suggest they ought to be? If not, why do you think this is?

I think there are swings in all things in regards to Armageddon. Sometimes it feels like there are more elves running through the streets of the major city-states than there are specks of grain blowing around in the sands. Right now it feels like the ratio is pretty decent, though I could be off on my count.

Do you feel human distaste for elves is overdone, about right, or underplayed?

I think the player base in general underplays the proper amount of hate and distaste for elves. Though, I guess it's all depending on the PC. One thing I believe quite a few players forget is that elves are thieves. That's what they pride themselves on and it drives them. It's like a thirst that is unquenchable in regards to how they want to relieve someone of their possessions. They do not do it for wealth, they do not do it because its something that elevates their status over their mark. It's a superiority thing and if additional benefits come along with the actual theft, the better.

Do you want to see more city elves in game?

Always.

If yes, what would encourage you to play city elves more?

I actually play elves more than any other race.

For veterans: are you more or less likely to play a city elf than you were a few years back?

Not really. I've always loved the race and I think that truly well played elves are few and far between. I've been lucky enough to play with some VERY good city-elves and desert-elves -- and when you do run into a well-played elf it's a game changing experience. There is just so much that can be done with the race and so many different RP opportunities. Don't even get me started on the elven tests of loyalty. The possibilities are endless when you really take a strong look at the race.

Are there ways you'd like to see typical interaction between humans and elves improved?

Improved as in more fluffy and cuddly? No. Improved as in more, "Get the away from me you damn dirty neck!" Yes.

[Marauder Moe]

Just roll up a character already!

[Morrolan]

• Do city elves feel as well-represented by PCs where you are as the numbers suggest they ought to be? If not, why do you think this is?

Elves, like other characters, often suffer from the "RPG vs. Character syndrome." There are not enough elves -- but too many elf "adventurers." Elves, perhaps more than other races, lend themselves to the near-suicidal behavior of the average PC.

• Do you feel human distaste for elves is overdone, about right, or underplayed?

Many players have difficulty expressing racist beliefs, even fictitious ones. When they (we!) do, it sometimes comes out clunky. Otherwise, it seems about right. It is, however, hard to tell, without high enough scan.

• Do you want to see more city elves in game?

>Scan

• For veterans: are you more or less likely to play a city elf than you were a few years back?

More.

• Are there ways you'd like to see typical interaction between humans and elves improved?

Yes. I'd like to see elves who have reputations that go beyond "he's an elf" or even "he's a thief." I'd like to see elves who subvert the power structure in new ways -- like the subclass master weaponsmaker who provides mastercrafts to people outside "the system."

Also, I'd like to see more of the illicit attraction that clearly exists between humans and elves. I think sometimes we've gone too far in the direction of "they're not human" "they're human" and dodged the fact that elf pheremones work on humans, and vice-versa.

[Barzalene]

Also, I'd like to see more of the illicit attraction that clearly exists between humans and elves. I think sometimes we've gone too far in the direction of "they're not human" "they're human" and dodged the fact that elf pheremones work on humans, and vice-versa.

This is a great idea if and only if it illicit s a strong, visible and appropriate reaction. And any crying done in response to that reaction should only happen in game.

[Morrolan]

Also, I'd like to see more of the illicit attraction that clearly exists between humans and elves. I think sometimes we've gone too far in the direction of "they're not human" "they're human" and dodged the fact that elf pheremones work on humans, and vice-versa.

This is a great idea if and only if it illicit s a strong, visible and appropriate reaction. And any crying done in response to that reaction should only happen in game.

Elves and humans kank. They do. It's true.

Sure, IG most people find it gross on a basic level, but...

The desire to kank people who are biologically attractive and socially unacceptable at the same time is a chance for deep and meaningful roleplay.

And yeah, as a character, you really don't want knowledge of your perversion to get out. As a player, however, I recommend three things:

• Realize that such an attraction is a self-sabotaging thing. In Armageddon, human-elf love and intimacy is "the love that dare not speak its name."
• That said, inform staff of the situation. Especially if you're clanned, or heavily involved in politics. This is a situation where the world as a whole will react appropriately.
• Realize that in the brutal world of Armageddon, such flagrant disregard for social norms will never be condoned, never be overlooked, and never be okay. Never.

For any player who still wants their character to "win" this is a terrible idea. This isn't The Birdcage. This is Requiem for a Dream combined with Deliverance and Boys Don't Cry.

[Quirk]

Some interesting differences in perspective on elf hate.

Depends on the characters in question. I've seen all three happen, but one thing I do find annoying is that people seem to go all-out on their hate much more than is advisable in the case with elves. Though humans still form the majority of any city's population, they don't outnumber elves by a large enough margin that you can treat elves like utter dirt, look down on them everytime they pass by and get away with it. Especially considering that the majority of elves has a large amount of contacts through their tribe, treating elves that badly would get any non-pc human in trouble real quick.

I think the player base in general underplays the proper amount of hate and distaste for elves. Though, I guess it's all depending on the PC. One thing I believe quite a few players forget is that elves are thieves. That's what they pride themselves on and it drives them. It's like a thirst that is unquenchable in regards to how they want to relieve someone of their possessions. They do not do it for wealth, they do not do it because its something that elevates their status over their mark. It's a superiority thing and if additional benefits come along with the actual theft, the better.

My own feelings would be in line with the former. The thing I posted at the very top? In the VNPC world, elves are almost equal in numbers to humans. The cities host many tribes, some of whom would be utterly foolhardy for a commoner to anger without serious political backing. I feel a well-dressed elf should be an invitation to be cautious. I'm open to persuasion, however, if you can make good arguments that the stereotype of elves ought to override their virtual numbers. I do think if four out of ten PCs were actually elven, even if these were split among many tribes who hated each other's guts, human PCs would be a lot more careful to ascertain the actual status of each individual elf before sneering openly at them.

Just roll up a character already!

Been in game for months. See "Catching up, Part 2: Tuluk" for my adventures among the gith.

Other stuff too thought-provoking not to comment on:

Just having more things to do would already make elves a lot more playable, in my opinion. I'd also love it if there were to be a southside Allanaki elven clan, and a clan without some of the more outlandish features the Akai Sjir have(which I can't comment on in this place.) I also realise that it is difficult, but a crimcode overhaul would make elves far more playable, too. Even though places like the Gaj have echoes of soldiers idly standing by as people get beaten to a pulp and carried off to god knows where, even though the authorities are supposedly corrupt and uncaring about what goes on in the poor districts, the npc soldiers are as dangerous there as elsewhere. I could see elves getting their family together to outright lynch people who've been too vicious to their family lately; I'd also imagine things such as muggings and thuggery to be commonplace in the Allanaki common quarter and the Tuluki Warrens. Yet in-game they aren't, partially because many characters are strong at combat themselves, and also because on an OOC level, everybody knows how vicious the response to crime is.

I'd love to see the crimcode revised around a less caring militia who only intervened when a victim was someone it cared about (perhaps some watchlist that started by default with House and Merchant House employees, and could be expanded with the favourites of templars and militia officers?), and maybe the odd group of vigilantes who kept their corner of the streets clean for certain tribes or groups.

I'd like to see elves who have reputations that go beyond "he's an elf" or even "he's a thief." I'd like to see elves who subvert the power structure in new ways -- like the subclass master weaponsmaker who provides mastercrafts to people outside "the system."

Yeah, I could really dig some orthogonal elven power structures. I'm not sure what form they should take though, beyond the obvious unit of the tribe. I'm sure some tribeless elves are running successful businesses. It feels though to me as though elves get stuck in an awkward place where an unduly high percentage of elf PCs are career criminals; this cannot sensibly reflect the VNPC life of the city. Most must be forced to make their living at relatively honest jobs despite their inclinations, sacrificing their aesthetics to the necessity of a steady income as with any wage slave, envious of those who've made scamming into a solid living. Feels like a seed for a whole new thread...

[Patuk]

I like your post, I really do. I agree with all of it, and wanted to comment further on this bit:

Yeah, I could really dig some orthogonal elven power structures. I'm not sure what form they should take though, beyond the obvious unit of the tribe. I'm sure some tribeless elves are running successful businesses. It feels though to me as though elves get stuck in an awkward place where an unduly high percentage of elf PCs are career criminals; this cannot sensibly reflect the VNPC life of the city. Most must be forced to make their living at relatively honest jobs despite their inclinations, sacrificing their aesthetics to the necessity of a steady income as with any wage slave, envious of those who've made scamming into a solid living. Feels like a seed for a whole new thread...

Whereas you're, again, absolutely spot on with this one, I don't see this one happening anytime soon. The current game environment is one where independent merchant characters make more money and have bigger crews than any GMH. So yes, there will be dungsweeping elves, elven beggars, elven craftsmen, elven whores, elven laborers, elven anything. But since a PC can't viably weave baskets or have sex or chisel figurines for a living whilst adhering to proper city elven documentation, I don't see any of this happening anytime soon.

[BleakOne]

I do think PC elves are much rarer than they should be, but with pretty good reason. They're a difficult race for many to play to due to alien mindset, the lack of choice of clans, and the hate they often receive.

Can't really do anything about the mindset without diluting what makes Elves into distinct.

It would be neat if they had a selection of family groups which could be chosen from, even if vague blood relation was the only benefit of being one of them (two or three southside Allanaki family groups, with no clan compounds or anything besides maybe a clan forum, would allow elves to actually have tribes).

As for the hate, I'm all for elf hate. I think, however, the vnpc population would make that hate boiling into grudges and violence much rarer than we actually see. Calling them filthy sharps would probably be a daily occurance, though.

[Quirk]

Whereas you're, again, absolutely spot on with this one, I don't see this one happening anytime soon. The current game environment is one where independent merchant characters make more money and have bigger crews than any GMH. So yes, there will be dungsweeping elves, elven beggars, elven craftsmen, elven whores, elven laborers, elven anything. But since a PC can't viably weave baskets or have sex or chisel figurines for a living whilst adhering to proper city elven documentation, I don't see any of this happening anytime soon.

I think they could be stretched a little bit to fit, I don't think it would have to be terribly far. Even without stretching it's possible to play basket-weaving or whoring or whatever as an elf, bargaining tenaciously to the limits of your ability, making others pay just a little more than they came in willing to pay. After all:

Even traders are thieves - indeed, many elves consider trading to be just a sophisticated form of theft. This makes many elves become merchants, but they tend to be the least scrupulous merchants around.

An analogy to elves and theft has been percolating round my head: sports fans who play their sport of choice.

Most such fans don't make a living out of the game they love, though they'd persuade you it's art, and more than art, to them. And mostly, after a certain age, they've resigned themselves to this. They keep their hand in where they can maybe, play a game on the weekend. They are also tribal - they'll diminish the accomplishments of an artist from another tribe even as they talk up the merits of their own. Still, some practitioners of their game will transcend boundaries for them to win a certain grudging respect.

I think most elves in the city probably are content to make small gains here and there, taking satisfaction from a hard-fought bargain or a customer picking up an item on the strength of an exaggerated description, for making a living in the fashion they'd most love to is realistically beyond their talent. But, for elves to live in the city in the numbers they do, I suspect a certain amount of complicity is involved with at least some humans. Maybe Amos who resells the elf Malik's baskets deliberately quotes him an unreasonably low price, letting Malik wheedle it up to the limit of what Amos is prepared to pay over the next few minutes and letting Malik depart with his pride intact. Maybe another of Malik's customers pretends to believe every unlikely word Malik tells him about the origin and manufacture of the baskets. In short, I imagine that there are face-saving formulae which are taken advantage of by elves who've given up hope of being the scamming legend of their tribe and are now just scraping by as best they can, fig leaves to cover what is now a tattered pride, consolations of the old and weak and down on their luck that are scorned by young, glib, successful elves.

Does this require stretching the roleplay docs? A little, perhaps, but I think it preserves their spirit. I'd love to see them rewritten to consider city elves as a race that has to scrape a living largely as an underclass, with consideration for the viewpoint of the elves of the commoners' quarters and the compromises that must be made by most of that race to preserve some semblance of their ideals.

In some ways I see this as being at least as important as background than as a new space opened up for PC characters. Players are already used to buying goods from elven NPCs, sometimes even food or water, but should an elven PC approach them selling something, they are likely to be greeted with deep suspicion. An understanding that elves are a massive part of the population, that you will be doing business with them, but that that may involve negotiating some pitfalls because they are untrustworthy bastards is I think more likely to breed interesting RP than trying to wedge in some kind of apartheid in which elves are either ignored or sneered at. I'd like to see a world in which humans threw out a few sops to elven pride when doing business, and hence were able to actually do business with elven PCs, but were always left wondering whether their supplier was going to tire of saving face and get ambitious.

And maybe, for some elves who've attained positions of trust, knowing that they could pull the trigger on the scam any time they want to and vanish into the night with a large bag of other people's sid is enough; a delicious possibility to be savoured every day.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Do city elves feel as well-represented by PCs where you are as the numbers suggest they ought to be? If not, why do you think this is?

No, but with good reason. As others said, there is a certain alienness to the mindset that requires a special sort of player to really enjoy playing that type of role, and to change the documentation to fit what people want to play more would be a disservice to the elven race and documentation by diluting the distinctions that staff and players alike have worked hard over the years to help give them.

Do you feel human distaste for elves is overdone, about right, or underplayed?

I feel like this is subjective. In Tuluk, in my opinion, it is underplayed, in Luir's, it seems actually pretty decent, and with good reason, I think, as Luir's is probably the settlement in the game that actually sees the most elven pc action. Albeit largely from desert elves, I feel like the suspicion and hardlines that exist but are not overwhelming, and the fact that Kurac (as the ones who run the settlement) allowing them to join the ranks acts, in a way, like elves being able to join the militia in red storm, as a sort of equalizer. In Allanak, I think that it -can- be overdone, but is often about right. I mean... yes, people want to throw a tizzy that the elf they just walked into the bar with isn't being talked to (neither are the vnpc elves), or is being glared at or regarded with suspicion... when being glared at, watched, and regarded with suspicion is a -common- reaction of people when they learn that someone is a pickpocket (and thus a thief), so why should it be expected to be any different with an elf (which is, according to the documentation, always a thief)?

See Mattrious' words on it (which I couldn't agree more with):

I think the player base in general underplays the proper amount of hate and distaste for elves. Though, I guess it's all depending on the PC. One thing I believe quite a few players forget is that elves are thieves. That's what they pride themselves on and it drives them. It's like a thirst that is unquenchable in regards to how they want to relieve someone of their possessions. They do not do it for wealth, they do not do it because its something that elevates their status over their mark. It's a superiority thing and if additional benefits come along with the actual theft, the better.

Do you want to see more city elves in game?

In Allanak, I think it would be nice to see more Jaxa, or a southside equivalent. I think Luir's could benefit from more city-based elven pcs, even if they did nothing but join the Fist or the like. In Tuluk, sometimes. Other times it feels like the pull that they can exert is way too high to be realistic.

If yes, what would encourage you to play city elves more?

Nothing, really. I don't enjoy the idea of playing someone who is pigeonholed into seeing theivery as an art when I find it detestable as a player. Everything has its place in game, but someone else can fill those roles. I don't play elves of the city -or- desert variety.

For veterans: are you more or less likely to play a city elf than you were a few years back?

This is unchanged. If the Akei'ta Var were opened up again, I'd likely be willing to give a d-elf another shot, but city elves are typically unappealing, partly just because I'm not a big fan of playing the sneaky guilds, myself.

Are there ways you'd like to see typical interaction between humans and elves improved?

I would like to defer to mattrious here:

Improved as in more fluffy and cuddly? No. Improved as in more, "Get the away from me you damn dirty neck!" Yes.

[HavokBlue]

Some people are forgetting that there are open clans for city elves in both cities.

[Lutagar]

Which celf tribe is open in allanak?

[BadSkeelz]

The Jaxa Pah, as the rinth is technically in Allanak. That's it, though.

[Lutagar]

Na, bro. Jaxa Pah isn't open for play. 

[BleakOne]

Na, bro. Jaxa Pah isn't open for play. 

I think it is... I think. 

[Malken]

Na, bro. Jaxa Pah isn't open for play. 

Yes it is.

From the clan's page -
Status: Open

[Lutagar]

2013-08-21 11:31:07AM (20 days ago)
Hi staff,

I wasn't entirely sure how Jaxa Pah family members are recruited - so I thought I'd go ahead and ask for a next character concept. Are they role-called on the GBD only? Is it possible for anyone to app one? Is it kosher to spec app for a magicker within the tribe?

Thanks,

<player name>

2013-08-25 20:24:25 (16 days ago)

<player name>,

The Jaxa Pah is currently closed for play, IC and OOC. We are retooling their documentation to make them a more playable aspect of the Labyrinth. When the tribe is open again, there will be a GDB notification.

Eurynomos
Storyteller
ArmageddonMUD Staff

Until that announcement goes up, they're closed for play. Sorry for the derail.

[BleakOne]

2013-08-21 11:31:07AM (20 days ago)
Hi staff,

I wasn't entirely sure how Jaxa Pah family members are recruited - so I thought I'd go ahead and ask for a next character concept. Are they role-called on the GBD only? Is it possible for anyone to app one? Is it kosher to spec app for a magicker within the tribe?

Thanks,

<player name>

2013-08-25 20:24:25 (16 days ago)

<player name>,

The Jaxa Pah is currently closed for play, IC and OOC. We are retooling their documentation to make them a more playable aspect of the Labyrinth. When the tribe is open again, there will be a GDB notification.

Eurynomos
Storyteller
ArmageddonMUD Staff

Until that announcement goes up, they're closed for play. Sorry for the derail.

Well darn, I stand corrected.

[BadSkeelz]

On the plus side, incoming doc changes! Woo! That'll be interesting to see.

[HavokBlue]

Oh, huh. That's news to me. Hope they're back soon. They were my first clan, I think.

[Wastrel]

It would be nice if there could be a few staff sponsored roles for the Pah

[bcw81]

It would be nice if there could be a few staff sponsored roles for the Pah

We already have desert templars and desert jihaen, do we really need more?

[Quirk]

Contrary to some suggestions in this thread, I don't think the alien mindset is the problem. Rather, I think that the problem is two-fold: firstly, that the roleplay docs themselves are already too crude in their description of the elven dedication to theft even to use to build a static world of NPCs, and secondly, that crude as they are, in some quarters they are distilled further to: "All elves are thieves. People hate them."

So let's look at the docs.

All elves have a cultural bent toward both wandering and thievery.

In elven culture, a gifted thief is given the same respect as a gifted artisan would be given in a human culture. In this sense, robbery is considered a precious skill among elves - it is something to be cultivated, something to hope your children possess, something which you yourself strive after, and the reason you look up to those more gifted than you.

Does this force all elves to be thieves? Not in the sense of it being a career, no. It's a cultural tendency, a value. It's not the only cultural value they have, and it may not even be the strongest cultural tendency in many tribes, but it is a cultural tendency which is universal across all elves. Successful theft wins you respect as an artist across a whole race; but not everyone can dedicate their lives to art.

But, beyond this:

But theft is more than simply stealing a pouch of coins off of a passing noble's belt. A clever pickpocket is indeed a fine example of an elven thief - but there is so much more to the art. To an elf, theft is: "Taking anything that would not be given if the possessor knew all of the facts." So you can see that elven thievery can include as many situations as your imagination can conjure - even spies and assassins can be thieves.

Spies and assassins are thieves? We're encouraged to stretch the definition of theft here. We're encouraged to move our minds away not only from the coin pouch but from the necessity of physical theft altogether.

An elven merchant will try to get much more for their wares than they think they deserve, because this is the basis of the theft. But of course, a clever customer might bargain his way into paying less than what the wares are worth, in which case the elf would think that they had been stolen from - a great source of angst for an elf! This makes elven merchants go to no ends to make sure that the customer never gets what he or she paid for.

So, should we bug every elven NPC seller of goods that gives you the item you see listed? This last sentence is hyperbole, and an excellent example of why trying to use these docs as some kind of paint-by-numbers way to roleplay will lead you astray. How could any merchant stay in business by never giving the customer what they paid for? It's a recipe to crash and burn. The docs are trying to communicate a tendency that has to be more nuanced to be realistic and sustainable.

The world we actually see, the NPC world that has been built, has elven merchants and mercenaries and whores and many other things. Most of them are supporting themselves in ways that the city-states they inhabit would consider legal. More than this: knowing how substantial a fraction of the population elves make up - almost half of free commoners - we're forced to conclude that the average elf is a productive member of the city-state. How would the city even be able to run were half its free citizens pickpockets and burglars roaming the alleys at night? And how would elves be tolerated as a race were they so entirely impossible to deal with? The docs currently, in trying to focus on how elves are different from other races, fail to show how much is the same. Elven ideals and aesthetics are alien to human culture, but the world they live in is the same; the compromises humans have to make to their own ideals and aesthetics to get by will have counterparts, must have counterparts. And there needs to be space for reasonable racial variation: the cowardly elf who finds the act of theft too unnerving, but has to pay lip service to its importance; the tribeless elf who's lived too long with humans and is coming to identify with their ideals, much as a human among elves might learn to steal and boast; the elf who, more motivated by the approbation of others than by internal drive, steals only a little but boasts a great deal; the elf who has discovered, to their joy and disbelief, that gossip collected for free can be exchanged for the items they desire as well as living expenses (what a scam!).

What makes this relatively hard to explore is that PCs are unrepresentative of the population. The tribeless PC elf comes out of chargen with a large quantity of sid and the thought "if I do not steal I am not an elf" echoing in her head. The life that her VNPC past self lived is glossed into a hazy notion that she has always lived out of the pockets of passersby. So she helps herself to the pockets of passersby, falls foul of a viciously overbearing crim code, and perishes. But her VNPC past life is more likely to be a tale of gratifications unmet and a living made by distressingly honest means; if theft is a test of courage, then she has likely already learned not to be foolhardy, has found limits to that courage, and likely tests it largely where she can be certain it will not interfere with her living or her well-being. Elves are supposed to be smart. Those foolhardy enough to chance the wrath of citizens and militia through open and frequent crimes should be a small minority.

And, of course, from a PC point of view, the attitude to elves is then built on elven PCs that have been encountered, not the NPCs and VNPCs - who, in fairness, are mostly treated as wholly blameless. "All elves are thieves" is not a lazy maxim with a core of truth about the elven psyche, but a much more literal description of the most common PC guilds. The distaste is more OOC than IC: your human character probably grew up on streets where elves lived, maybe played with them as children, learned how to co-exist with them despite valid reasons for distrust and knowledge of your own racial superiority, but when the unknown elf stands next to you at the bar it's all "aw crap, a pickpocket, best close my pack and be rude until he goes away".

I think we can do better than this.

[spicemustflow]

This awesome post brought a tear to my elven eye.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Damn. Quirk is back for really real.

[BleakOne]

So... we're arguing for the elf docs to be changed?

I mean, if the docs state "elves make sure you never get what you pay for" don't we have to abide by that, even if we creatively interpret it? In the end, there's no such thing as a completely honest elf.

For example, an elf bartender might not be selling shitmugs as ale, but he could convince himself of the 'scam' he's running by using smaller cups for the same price, mixing sand in with the spice he sells, or adding thirst-inducing seasonings to the food he serves.

Just saying we have wiggle room in the docs, but in the end we do have to abide by them. Not saying that anyone here was saying we should ignore docs, just saying my two sids.

[Patuk]

Things that are all very much true and which I agree with completely.

Again, I like this post. There is one problem with trying to portray city elves this realistically, though.

You're just going to end up starving en masse.

City elf PC's are the thieving scum that they are not simply because their players make them one-dimensional and focused on theft all the time, it's also because there is very little a PC elf can do to stay alive in a city. Go look at the Gaj crowds someday; chances are that a majority of the people there are grebbers, hunters, militiamen and GMH employees. Then there's the aides, whores, and independent traveling merchants. Anyone wanting to play any of these character types cannot do so sheerly for playing a city-elf. To go on with the example of basketweaving, yes, you can play a basketweaving elf, no, you don't have to turn him into some sort of kleptomaniac who steals outright everything everywhere, but the fact of the matter is that the market is so saturated by people who are unrestricted in their traveling and resource gathering that you're not going to make two 'sid to rub together at all. I completely agree that there is far more to the elven mindset than STEAL STEAL STEAL, and that elves have their own thoughts and feelings as well, but with the restrictions C-elves get and with the poor benefits they get in return, it currently simply isn't viable to play them outside a scant few types of roles.

[Quirk]

So... we're arguing for the elf docs to be changed?

I mean, if the docs state "elves make sure you never get what you pay for" don't we have to abide by that, even if we creatively interpret it? In the end, there's no such thing as a completely honest elf.

The NPCs don't abide by it. And frankly, giving the docs the weight of religious text puts a terrifying burden on their writers. One sentence of whimsy grows into iron law. I'm not saying "ignore the docs", but rather suggesting that we try not to adopt an overly literal interpretation of every line.

And no, of course no elf is completely honest; but their dishonesty is constrained by consequences. One way or another, the elf has to adapt to his circumstances. Perhaps that means seizing on some aspect of his living and using it as reassurance, a salve to pride: "hah, the idiots pay me for a full day, but I slack off whenever they're not watching me" or "hah, if the weak-legs knew where I got this stuff, they'd be astonished at how much I'm marking it up". Being simultaneously a proud race and one in poor circumstances forces such rationalisations and justifications: the need to believe you're getting one over on the humans when in reality it's clear they hold all the cards. I think though there will always be some lurking awareness of these concessions made to satisfy pride, and if an opportunity arises where the elf can pull off an epic scam and walk away consequence free, the allure of living the dream is going to be a nigh-unstoppable pull.

To address Patuk: yes, this is absolutely true, and in particular a tribeless city-elf is hugely disadvantaged - less flexible than a human, and lacking in any kind of support network. Tribes have to play a large part in making city elves attractive to play. The independent merchant and hunter can ride anywhere, but they never have any guarantee their employees or partners won't betray them. Elves have that guarantee with their tribe, and the ability to utilise their talents in concert to substantial effect. If the basket-weaver's tribe-brother brings him dye, and a tribe-sister buys materials in bulk, and another again manages lucrative contracts with organisations too snobby to employ elves but willing to quietly resell goods made by them... I think it's possible to arrive at a more level playing field, where survival might be a little harder, but pains and gains are averaged out over the tribe and there's a sense of belonging. If we ever got to VNPC representation levels among PCs, we would need a bunch of antagonistic tribes, though: one or two elven tribes holding almost half a city playerbase would swiftly become way too influential in PC-land.

Sadly it's not easy to see how we could get from where we are now to where we'd need to be solely through IC action, unless a little more latitude was granted with regard to starting tribes.

[Nyr]

NPC = non playable character.

Of course they do not abide by the docs. They don't play. When they are animated they do. No documentation should be based on what NPCs do. At best, they are scripted to do certain things because code is limited. We cannot code documentation and roleplay nuance into NPCs.

[Quirk]

NPC = non playable character.

Of course they do not abide by the docs. They don't play. When they are animated they do. No documentation should be based on what NPCs do. At best, they are scripted to do certain things because code is limited. We cannot code documentation and roleplay nuance into NPCs.

Well, then, to be clearer: the building of the world necessitates confronting questions that can be skimmed over in the docs. Elven merchant NPCs exist selling fake treasure maps and shoddy fare. Elven merchant NPCs also exist that sell genuinely useful items, sometimes even necessities. These latter NPCs do not have to be elven, but they are.

We could have street after street of hidden elven NPCs stealing from passing PCs via some script, and every elven merchant NPC selling things that seemed attractive, but were useless. This would not be out of line with the city elf roleplay docs. It would be pretty self-evidently stupid if we paused to think why the templarate would permit this to happen, how these merchant NPCs are meant to make a living, thought at all about how it could work as a system - but it would not be out of line with the docs. The world as built reflects an understanding which is perfectly in line with the spirit of the docs, but is already more nuanced, because it has to deal with specifics: what sort of echoes reflect the behaviour of the VNPCs in this place at this time? What does the elven presence in this marketplace look like? How do the vast numbers of elves in the cities actually live?

The docs line I highlighted - that the customer never gets what they paid for - contains a problem that is immediately obvious to the imm building an NPC shopkeeper. If the items sold appear to be of use but are not, PCs will buy from the shopkeeper at most once. This reflects a general reality that a business that never delivers is at best a flash in the pan. And so we have elven NPCs which sell items which are exactly what they appear to be - because, in reality, the need to make a living in an ongoing fashion will force such merchants to find a level of misbehaviour which lies within their customers' tolerance. And indeed, what's the problem with an elf selling an item that's exactly as it appears to be, but at a price that will make customers with no other option grumble, or which can easily be obtained for less with a little knowledge the customer lacks? In all these cases the elf can feel she's getting one over on the customer. The mindset is preserved, though the hyperbole of the original line is not.

The city elf docs don't attempt to position theft sustainably. It provides a sense of accomplishment through "ever increasing challenges". This is a bad recipe for PC survival, never mind a model for the behaviour of a VNPC population. The claims made are too bold, too brazen to support literal interpretation. I would suggest that the way the world has been built - NPCs, room descriptions, echoes - exhibits a damn sight more roleplay nuance and thought for the realities of daily life for the different races composing the population than currently exists in the city elf docs. And so, when the rhetorical flourishes of the docs are treated like a straitjacket, I think we end up with a problem.

[Quirk]

To be fair to the city elf docs, here, I think they do a particular job quite well: outlining the elven mindset in broad strokes in an engaging manner, with a little bit of analogy and exaggeration to make reading light and easy.

They don't address how a proud race deals with being second-class citizens. They don't address how the elven drive for thievery must be tempered by the more basic needs of survival. They don't address the consequences of elves being such a numerous race or shed light on how they make themselves useful enough to keep round. All of these things would be good to address somewhere, but there's a danger that doing so in the main help would turn a page of text into something resembling an academic journal and turn newbies' hair white.

But the flip side of this is that I think we have to use them as a basis for understanding what the elven mindset is and what their goals are, while also understanding that they don't address many of the questions round how elves fit into the world, and that they haven't been worded with the care of a research paper. I see their job as being to describe elven aspirations, not adjudicate all the messy boundaries of these with reality.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Honestly, I feel like the stealing nuance for elves should be portrayed in a different light.  Instead of indicating that all elves are thieves, all elves should be portrayed as looking to take advantage in any way possible at all times. That sort of attitude covers stealing and also all sorts of other situations. It's also easier to wrap your head around.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Honestly, I feel like the stealing nuance for elves should be portrayed in a different light.  Instead of indicating that all elves are thieves, all elves should be portrayed as looking to take advantage in any way possible at all times. That sort of attitude covers stealing and also all sorts of other situations. It's also easier to wrap your head around.

Pretty nearly all humans are 'opportunists' though. This would render that difference almost nonexistant, if it were interpreted as something as simple as opportunism. Opportunism isn't thievery, it's self-preservation.

[Quirk]

Pretty nearly all humans are 'opportunists' though. This would render that difference almost nonexistant, if it were interpreted as something as simple as opportunism. Opportunism isn't thievery, it's self-preservation.

Yeah, agreed. With elves, I think there's more of a game to it. It's all about taking something you shouldn't, with pretty wide leeway over what "something" is. It's your very favourite game, and you're a sore loser.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I dunno about that. For example, a human might give another human a drink in the desert for free. An elf might give that guy a drjnk too, but never for free. Ever. For that ring, for your sister's nookie, for five sid and ten if  he hasn't known you for ten years. That's not stealing, that's an inability NOT to be an opportunist, which I think would be more playable and ICly plausable in relation to the race surviving in such numbers in cities run by humans. Its not about humans not being elven in nature, it's about elves not being able to not be elven, and yet that nature not leading to their extermination, because to me, if every elf is a thief, I don't see how they are looked at as anything better than mages, and they don't get the protection mages get from Templars.

[Nyr]

NPC = non playable character.

Of course they do not abide by the docs. They don't play. When they are animated they do. No documentation should be based on what NPCs do. At best, they are scripted to do certain things because code is limited. We cannot code documentation and roleplay nuance into NPCs.

Well, then, to be clearer: the building of the world necessitates confronting questions that can be skimmed over in the docs. Elven merchant NPCs exist selling fake treasure maps and shoddy fare. Elven merchant NPCs also exist that sell genuinely useful items, sometimes even necessities. These latter NPCs do not have to be elven, but they are.

So they are.  How much of a leap is it that the NPCs already sell things for a higher price than they would be normally (or they're getting them for cheaper than you think they are)?  The issue is that you feel the docs don't back up the elven merchant NPCs.  The reality is that the docs are for players, not NPCs.  The gameworld in the form of these NPCs backs up the documentation to a certain extent, but to go so far as to bug every elven merchant because you could choose to haggle your way to a "great" deal would be a bit much.  Go haggle an elven PC, you'll get far more enjoyment out of it!

I'm not saying we can't do more with elven merchant NPCs.  I am saying it's probably not a priority (or even on the list of top 30 things that irk players enough that staff should make it a priority to fix sooner rather than later).

We could have street after street of hidden elven NPCs stealing from passing PCs via some script, and every elven merchant NPC selling things that seemed attractive, but were useless.

The former would probably be exceptionally annoying for the player experience.  The latter could be done but probably isn't a high priority because it is not a gamebreaking thing (and can be pretty easily avoided).

The docs line I highlighted - that the customer never gets what they paid for - contains a problem that is immediately obvious to the imm building an NPC shopkeeper. If the items sold appear to be of use but are not, PCs will buy from the shopkeeper at most once. This reflects a general reality that a business that never delivers is at best a flash in the pan. And so we have elven NPCs which sell items which are exactly what they appear to be - because, in reality, the need to make a living in an ongoing fashion will force such merchants to find a level of misbehaviour which lies within their customers' tolerance. And indeed, what's the problem with an elf selling an item that's exactly as it appears to be, but at a price that will make customers with no other option grumble, or which can easily be obtained for less with a little knowledge the customer lacks? In all these cases the elf can feel she's getting one over on the customer. The mindset is preserved, though the hyperbole of the original line is not.

The elven NPCs could (and probably do) sell things at a higher price.  You do not know what their original cost is on those things they are selling.

The city elf docs don't attempt to position theft sustainably. It provides a sense of accomplishment through "ever increasing challenges". This is a bad recipe for PC survival, never mind a model for the behaviour of a VNPC population. The claims made are too bold, too brazen to support literal interpretation. I would suggest that the way the world has been built - NPCs, room descriptions, echoes - exhibits a damn sight more roleplay nuance and thought for the realities of daily life for the different races composing the population than currently exists in the city elf docs. And so, when the rhetorical flourishes of the docs are treated like a straitjacket, I think we end up with a problem.

This is an interesting point.  I suppose the response here is that we don't write racial documentation to show nuance, opportunity, and freedom for those roles.  (Side note:  I say "write" though most of that is legacy from years ago and recently retooled in a few places for the new website, so maybe I mean it in the past tense.)  We write racial documentation to restrict and throw up boundaries.  Why?  It is because the documentation is definitely slanted towards an unfamiliar audience--as if that audience does not understand these things.  A player must understand the norms for a race in order to play it.  Once they understand the norms well enough, they can then explore the boundaries of those norms and learn what exceptions might exist.  Consider what we say about desert elves (Wug linked it in another thread).

So you're at the level of experienced elven roleplayer and you feel the documentation out there in a few spots is really hyperbolic.  You are absolutely right, it totally is.  That's not a bad thing.

[Quirk]

So you're at the level of experienced elven roleplayer and you feel the documentation out there in a few spots is really hyperbolic.  You are absolutely right, it totally is.  That's not a bad thing.

It's not a bad thing; I totally agree. It engages and cuts to the spirit of the mindset cleanly. I'm just worried by people getting the notion that statements added to heighten effect are things we have to "abide by".

In my ideal world, there would be both an introduction for the unfamiliar player and more detailed explanations which fill in understanding of how the VNPC world operates, and how elven sociopathy has to bend to placate the hostile society round it. (My ideal world's awesome, by the way: infinite imms with infinite free time.) Sadly we aren't in an ideal world. However, would there be any staff interest in player attempts to help with this? I think there's some player appetite to figure out how elves can sensibly co-exist alongside humans, and what sort of accomodations are being made by the VNPCs. While I'm more than willing to volunteer my time, I'm aware I'm a mouthy and opinionated sort who you might want taking a back seat in all of this; that's fine; but is there room generally for players with experience of elven roleplay to contribute to fleshing out additional racial roleplay documentation?

[Jingo]

It isn't because the elven mindset is hard to grasp. It's because they have too many disadvantages in the metagame. We should really be clear.

I.E. I can't play a tough ass mcrgrizzled journyman piercing warrior as a city elf. Simply because I can't go outside to hunt.

Unless I go spree killer 'rinth mcgee, which IMHO is a magnitude worse.

[AmandaGreathouse]

It isn't because the elven mindset is hard to grasp. It's because they have too many disadvantages in the metagame. We should really be clear.

I.E. I can't play a tough ass mcrgrizzled journyman piercing warrior as a city elf. Simply because I can't go outside to hunt.

Unless I go spree killer 'rinth mcgee, which IMHO is a magnitude worse.

Not to sound like an asshole, but there's a reason for the Byn, man. And why they allow elves in. Kurac also hires elves into the fist. There are clans where you can get combat training even as an elf.

[Bogre]

TANSTAAFL

I've always been more intimidated by the BAMF elven warriors than I have the random human/dwarf/half elf sparred up hunter char #40. Because you -know- the elf doesn't GAF about you or being nice.

[Norcal]

C elves are underplayed.  This is too bad.  There are restrictions but there is also lots of opportunity for in depth and fun rp. One of the things that currently makes playing a c elf more difficult is the lack of other c elves. More people should try them out.

In some clans for SOME PCs to venture outside the walls as part of their daily lives.  They might not like doing this IC but the possibility is there. Also there is opportunity for a c elf warrior to spar and train up in some elven clans. 

[HavokBlue]

C elves are underplayed.  This is too bad.  There are restrictions but there is also lots of opportunity for in depth and fun rp. One of the things that currently makes playing a c elf more difficult is the lack of other c elves. More people should try them out.

In some clans for SOME PCs to venture outside the walls as part of their daily lives.  They might not like doing this IC but the possibility is there. Also there is opportunity for a c elf warrior to spar and train up in some elven clans. 

As of right now there are only three clan options for city elves though. Akai Sjir, Byn, and Kurac. Only one of those is even an elven tribe.

[hyzhenhok]

C elves are underplayed.  This is too bad.  There are restrictions but there is also lots of opportunity for in depth and fun rp. One of the things that currently makes playing a c elf more difficult is the lack of other c elves. More people should try them out.

In some clans for SOME PCs to venture outside the walls as part of their daily lives.  They might not like doing this IC but the possibility is there. Also there is opportunity for a c elf warrior to spar and train up in some elven clans. 

As of right now there are only three clan options for city elves though. Akai Sjir, Byn, and Kurac. Only one of those is even an elven tribe.

Did the Jaxa Pah close? Website says they're open.

[Malken]

C elves are underplayed.  This is too bad.  There are restrictions but there is also lots of opportunity for in depth and fun rp. One of the things that currently makes playing a c elf more difficult is the lack of other c elves. More people should try them out.

In some clans for SOME PCs to venture outside the walls as part of their daily lives.  They might not like doing this IC but the possibility is there. Also there is opportunity for a c elf warrior to spar and train up in some elven clans. 

As of right now there are only three clan options for city elves though. Akai Sjir, Byn, and Kurac. Only one of those is even an elven tribe.

Did the Jaxa Pah close? Website says they're open.

Yeah, tried to join a week or so ago and was told I couldn't, not even just be "clanned" to it for 'rinth purposes.

Someone should send in a request to have this changed on the website.

[BleakOne]

The ninja-closing of the Jaxa has been confirmed. I believe it is not intended to be a long absence, however.

[Norcal]

C elves are underplayed.  This is too bad.  There are restrictions but there is also lots of opportunity for in depth and fun rp. One of the things that currently makes playing a c elf more difficult is the lack of other c elves. More people should try them out.

In some clans for SOME PCs to venture outside the walls as part of their daily lives.  They might not like doing this IC but the possibility is there. Also there is opportunity for a c elf warrior to spar and train up in some elven clans. 

As of right now there are only three clan options for city elves though. Akai Sjir, Byn, and Kurac. Only one of those is even an elven tribe.

That is true, but I don't think Jaxa Pah are closed permanently.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I think that the interesting part about this all is that even though elves are the second most populous race in the world, they are so sorely under represented both by players and via playable elf-centric clans. In IC reality, seeing an elf should be more common than seeing a dwarf. That's not always the case, at all.

[Quirk]

I think that the interesting part about this all is that even though elves are the second most populous race in the world, they are so sorely under represented both by players and via playable elf-centric clans. In IC reality, seeing an elf should be more common than seeing a dwarf. That's not always the case, at all.

Not just more common - seeing a free elf should be fifty times more common than seeing a dwarf.

There needs to be a critical mass of players playing elves to keep that going, though. To hold that critical mass, you'd need some seriously substantial elven clan support, because, as Patuk notes, a single tribeless city-elf is a handicapped character. They can't be hunters, they can't attain a position in most open clans, they're distrusted and discriminated against by default so running them as an independent merchant or crafter is harder than with a human - and even if you want to make a thief or con artist, starting from that position of inspiring immediate distrust makes success harder. And these are just the ICly justifiable portions of the problem; we have to place on top of that frequently overdone levels of PC distaste and victimisation which simply couldn't hold up in a world where there was close to one free elf for every free human, and the old, overstated docs which make no attempt to work out a sustainable model of elven living, directing the new player instead into a destructive cycle of increasing conflict with authority.

To push back against all these problems and reach toward that critical mass, we'd need multiple well-represented elven clans, with documentation which fleshed out how their antisocial tendencies were balanced in such a way that they were suffered to exist by the powers in the city-state. But, to fill those clans, we'd need players, and that would diminish the pool of players open to other organisations. It might also reduce interaction: most organisations represented by PCs in game are extremely powerful and wealthy (Noble Houses, Merchant Houses) and as such probably won't need to concern themselves with the doings of elven clans, who would probably be more like the Byn in size and scope, but without the Byn's excuses for interacting with those powerful organisations. The social level that these clans would exist at isn't very well fleshed out within the cities - and that's a shame, because it's potentially a far more interesting level than the one we usually see, with organisations small enough that PCs could make a real difference to their continued survival. I fear however too much would need to change to make that level viable, and it's never going to happen.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

In order to represent such a thing even semi accurately, there needs to be one center of population, not two. As things stand, I suppose city elves will never be accurately depicted in terms of ratio and scope and coded organizations.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I was gonna post this somewhere else, and decided to do it here. Meh.

Racism is one of those things that can creep out in everyone, even those who think that they are not racist. In the cities, there are nearly as many elves as there are humans. Of course elves will be worked with, fought alongside with, played with as a child. There are plenty of people who would think elves are not monsters. There is natural attraction between elves and humans.

-But elves steal, and so when they come for dinner, hide the silverware.
-Everyone knows elves are shifty. If you go hunting with one, make sure you keep an eye on your own water.
-On that note, make sure you bring water. Elves can be great hunters, but if you get thirsty, you're pretty much automatically dead.
-Elves only run outside so that everyone following them has to stop all the time, which allows raiders to have more chances for ambush. Elven raiders.
-Elves will fuck your stupid daughter and leave her with a breed in belly. Smack the fuck out of that elf that works with you if he so much as looks at her.

Racism is not always this sharp edged thing. In the common person's life, blatant hatred for someone who's lived next door to you for years and never actually harmed you is pretty fucking retarded. Racism seems as though it would manifest itself differently for the lower class.

On the other hand, that doorman who watched the Trader's Inn and kept certain folks out, should probably be duped to watch the Red's. Because elves really don't need to be there. Ever. That shifty sharp next door should find a new place to work, too.

[Fujikoma]

I like what Quirk is saying. I'd share my views on the matter but I'm still a rather new player and everyone knows how wonky my interpretation of the docs is... That and sharing my views on the matter would probably let people know a character I have played and the inner workings of his mind, and it's far too soon for that.