Catching up, Part 3: City Elves

[Quirk]

Tuluk (350,000)
219,000 humans (50% are slaves) (62.6% of total)
108,500 elves (10% are slaves) (31% of Total)
3,500 dwarves (65% are slaves) (1% of Total)
3,500 half-giants (80% are slaves) (1% of Total)
7,000 half-elves (40% are slaves) (2% of total)
1,500 muls (98% are slaves) (0.4% of total)
7,000 unknown/other/mutant (25% are slaves) (2% of Total)

Allanak (481,880)
310,000 humans (50% are slaves) (150,000 free) (64.3% of total)
150,000 elves (10% are slaves) (135,500 free) (31.1% of total)
7,500 dwarves (65% are slaves) (2,600 free) (1.8% of total)
3,800 half-giants (20% are slaves) (3,150 free) (0.8% of total)
5,800 half-elves (40% are slaves) (3,400 free) (1.3% of total)
1980 muls (99% are slaves) (18 free) (0.4% of total)
2,800 unknown/other/mutant (40% are slaves) (1,400 free) (~0.6% of total)

Tuluk's numbers have trended upwards since those figures were compiled (2006) though more recent events may have brought it back down; Allanak's numbers have trended downwards since those figures were compiled (2008) and recent events may have brought it down further.

Red Storm's population:  less than Allanak by a great magnitude. 
Luir's Outpost population:  Equal to or (more likely) less than Red Storm's population.  Varies more often than RS.  Variation depends on many factors.

So, how's the second most populous race on Zalanthas doing? I always felt the scheming, tricky elven underclass deserved more PC representation. From the docs and previous comments made on slavery and population, it seemed to me as though the reality of life for most free commoners involved many daily dealings with free commoner elves, who were too numerous to disregard: a disagreeable but necessary negotiation of traps and plots. I don't think I've ever seen an Armageddon which quite lives up to this picture for me, as yet, though I have a vague impression that things might be better than I remember them being way back.

Some questions!

• Do city elves feel as well-represented by PCs where you are as the numbers suggest they ought to be? If not, why do you think this is?
• Do you feel human distaste for elves is overdone, about right, or underplayed?
• Do you want to see more city elves in game?
• If yes, what would encourage you to play city elves more?
• For veterans: are you more or less likely to play a city elf than you were a few years back?
• Are there ways you'd like to see typical interaction between humans and elves improved?

[Patuk]

So, how's the second most populous race on Zalanthas doing? I always felt the scheming, tricky elven underclass deserved more PC representation. From the docs and previous comments made on slavery and population, it seemed to me as though the reality of life for most free commoners involved many daily dealings with free commoner elves, who were too numerous to disregard: a disagreeable but necessary negotiation of traps and plots. I don't think I've ever seen an Armageddon which quite lives up to this picture for me, as yet, though I have a vague impression that things might be better than I remember them being way back.

Some questions!

• Do city elves feel as well-represented by PCs where you are as the numbers suggest they ought to be? If not, why do you think this is?

[/quote]

No.

Not even close, even. Jesus. Commoner PC's outnumber the elves ten to one and then some.

I've talked about this over the teamspeak a number of times, and it seems that the combination of being confined to one place, the alien mindset elves have, the inability to join any clans and the isolation coming from creating an independent character who can't leave the city are the major cultprits in c-elves being underplayed.

• Do you feel human distaste for elves is overdone, about right, or underplayed?

Depends on the characters in question. I've seen all three happen, but one thing I do find annoying is that people seem to go all-out on their hate much more than is advisable in the case with elves. Though humans still form the majority of any city's population, they don't outnumber elves by a large enough margin that you can treat elves like utter dirt, look down on them everytime they pass by and get away with it. Especially considering that the majority of elves has a large amount of contacts through their tribe, treating elves that badly would get any non-pc human in trouble real quick.

• Do you want to see more city elves in game?

Yes. It's one of the things where the whole 'be the change' thing actually applies, too.

• If yes, what would encourage you to play city elves more?

More attention being paid to city elves in general. City elves can't join any clan that isn't the Byn or Kurac, can't really leave their cities, are hated by all the other PC's, and are hampered by the crimcode turning every soldier into a guard straight from TES Oblivion the moment you do something funny. Just having more things to do would already make elves a lot more playable, in my opinion. I'd also love it if there were to be a southside Allanaki elven clan, and a clan without some of the more outlandish features the Akai Sjir have(which I can't comment on in this place.) I also realise that it is difficult, but a crimcode overhaul would make elves far more playable, too. Even though places like the Gaj have echoes of soldiers idly standing by as people get beaten to a pulp and carried off to god knows where, even though the authorities are supposedly corrupt and uncaring about what goes on in the poor districts, the npc soldiers are as dangerous there as elsewhere. I could see elves getting their family together to outright lynch people who've been too vicious to their family lately; I'd also imagine things such as muggings and thuggery to be commonplace in the Allanaki common quarter and the Tuluki Warrens. Yet in-game they aren't, partially because many characters are strong at combat themselves, and also because on an OOC level, everybody knows how vicious the response to crime is.

• For veterans: are you more or less likely to play a city elf than you were a few years back?
• Are there ways you'd like to see typical interaction between humans and elves improved?

Only the aforementioned thing about recognising that elves are with many, and a vindictive sorts, too. Don't treat them as if they would pose no threat at all.


[/list]

[AreteX]

1.  Do city elves feel as well-represented by PCs where you are as the numbers suggest they ought to be? If not, why do you think this is?

No.  They don't really.  It isn't even close like someone else said.  I have attempted to play city elves, and I think one of the reasons is that having a vNPC tribe is great, but often just not as satisfying as playing with other players and actually having interaction that is not made up inside of your own head.  If there were more role calls for tribal families in the player announcements then I think more people would be all about it.

2. Do you feel human distaste for elves is overdone, about right, or underplayed?

The IC does seem like it is being done well, but the OOC level of distaste is a noticeable problem.  What I mean is I will walk into a tavern and have everyone do their immediate look(which happens often for anyone) but then I will notice 3-4 people watching me, or people paying particular attention to their bags now, closing backpacks, cloaks, bat-belts so I don't steal their batarangs.  ICly, they have been sitting in a tavern for half a day with their stuff hanging all out, but as soon as a PC elf walks into the room they close up their bags.  ICly I love being stared at, punched, watched, suspected... but on an OOC level it is sometimes lame to see the preventative measures that really don't belong just because I am a PC.  Remember, there are a bunch of elves around you already...

3.  Do you want to see more city elves in game?

Yes.  This is one of the reasons I have tried playing them much more often now in my rotation of characters.

4.  If yes, what would encourage you to play city elves more?

The ability to role-app into tribes more easily.  There are just not enough options for city-elves to "belong".  This could also be something of "be the change" sort of thing with players making their own tribes, and then trying to get staff support for allowing other players to join, which eventually turns it into a player-run clan that isn't in the 'Rinth.  That would be great.

5.  For Veterans:  Are you more or less likely to play a city elf than you were a few years back?

I am not really a veteran, but I am more likely to play a city-elf only because I find them intriguing and I will continue to do so.

6.  Are there ways you'd like to see typical interaction between humans and elves improved?

Yes, but they are mostly OOC things I have noticed that I have mentioned already.  ICly I see a good interactions between elves and other races, specifically humans.

[mattrious]

Do city elves feel as well-represented by PCs where you are as the numbers suggest they ought to be? If not, why do you think this is?

I think there are swings in all things in regards to Armageddon. Sometimes it feels like there are more elves running through the streets of the major city-states than there are specks of grain blowing around in the sands. Right now it feels like the ratio is pretty decent, though I could be off on my count.

Do you feel human distaste for elves is overdone, about right, or underplayed?

I think the player base in general underplays the proper amount of hate and distaste for elves. Though, I guess it's all depending on the PC. One thing I believe quite a few players forget is that elves are thieves. That's what they pride themselves on and it drives them. It's like a thirst that is unquenchable in regards to how they want to relieve someone of their possessions. They do not do it for wealth, they do not do it because its something that elevates their status over their mark. It's a superiority thing and if additional benefits come along with the actual theft, the better.

Do you want to see more city elves in game?

Always.

If yes, what would encourage you to play city elves more?

I actually play elves more than any other race.

For veterans: are you more or less likely to play a city elf than you were a few years back?

Not really. I've always loved the race and I think that truly well played elves are few and far between. I've been lucky enough to play with some VERY good city-elves and desert-elves -- and when you do run into a well-played elf it's a game changing experience. There is just so much that can be done with the race and so many different RP opportunities. Don't even get me started on the elven tests of loyalty. The possibilities are endless when you really take a strong look at the race.

Are there ways you'd like to see typical interaction between humans and elves improved?

Improved as in more fluffy and cuddly? No. Improved as in more, "Get the away from me you damn dirty neck!" Yes.

[Marauder Moe]

Just roll up a character already!

[Morrolan]

• Do city elves feel as well-represented by PCs where you are as the numbers suggest they ought to be? If not, why do you think this is?

Elves, like other characters, often suffer from the "RPG vs. Character syndrome." There are not enough elves -- but too many elf "adventurers." Elves, perhaps more than other races, lend themselves to the near-suicidal behavior of the average PC.

• Do you feel human distaste for elves is overdone, about right, or underplayed?

Many players have difficulty expressing racist beliefs, even fictitious ones. When they (we!) do, it sometimes comes out clunky. Otherwise, it seems about right. It is, however, hard to tell, without high enough scan.

• Do you want to see more city elves in game?

>Scan

• For veterans: are you more or less likely to play a city elf than you were a few years back?

More.

• Are there ways you'd like to see typical interaction between humans and elves improved?

Yes. I'd like to see elves who have reputations that go beyond "he's an elf" or even "he's a thief." I'd like to see elves who subvert the power structure in new ways -- like the subclass master weaponsmaker who provides mastercrafts to people outside "the system."

Also, I'd like to see more of the illicit attraction that clearly exists between humans and elves. I think sometimes we've gone too far in the direction of "they're not human" "they're human" and dodged the fact that elf pheremones work on humans, and vice-versa.

[Barzalene]

Also, I'd like to see more of the illicit attraction that clearly exists between humans and elves. I think sometimes we've gone too far in the direction of "they're not human" "they're human" and dodged the fact that elf pheremones work on humans, and vice-versa.

This is a great idea if and only if it illicit s a strong, visible and appropriate reaction. And any crying done in response to that reaction should only happen in game.

[Morrolan]

Also, I'd like to see more of the illicit attraction that clearly exists between humans and elves. I think sometimes we've gone too far in the direction of "they're not human" "they're human" and dodged the fact that elf pheremones work on humans, and vice-versa.

This is a great idea if and only if it illicit s a strong, visible and appropriate reaction. And any crying done in response to that reaction should only happen in game.

Elves and humans kank. They do. It's true.

Sure, IG most people find it gross on a basic level, but...

The desire to kank people who are biologically attractive and socially unacceptable at the same time is a chance for deep and meaningful roleplay.

And yeah, as a character, you really don't want knowledge of your perversion to get out. As a player, however, I recommend three things:

• Realize that such an attraction is a self-sabotaging thing. In Armageddon, human-elf love and intimacy is "the love that dare not speak its name."
• That said, inform staff of the situation. Especially if you're clanned, or heavily involved in politics. This is a situation where the world as a whole will react appropriately.
• Realize that in the brutal world of Armageddon, such flagrant disregard for social norms will never be condoned, never be overlooked, and never be okay. Never.

For any player who still wants their character to "win" this is a terrible idea. This isn't The Birdcage. This is Requiem for a Dream combined with Deliverance and Boys Don't Cry.

[Quirk]

Some interesting differences in perspective on elf hate.

Depends on the characters in question. I've seen all three happen, but one thing I do find annoying is that people seem to go all-out on their hate much more than is advisable in the case with elves. Though humans still form the majority of any city's population, they don't outnumber elves by a large enough margin that you can treat elves like utter dirt, look down on them everytime they pass by and get away with it. Especially considering that the majority of elves has a large amount of contacts through their tribe, treating elves that badly would get any non-pc human in trouble real quick.

I think the player base in general underplays the proper amount of hate and distaste for elves. Though, I guess it's all depending on the PC. One thing I believe quite a few players forget is that elves are thieves. That's what they pride themselves on and it drives them. It's like a thirst that is unquenchable in regards to how they want to relieve someone of their possessions. They do not do it for wealth, they do not do it because its something that elevates their status over their mark. It's a superiority thing and if additional benefits come along with the actual theft, the better.

My own feelings would be in line with the former. The thing I posted at the very top? In the VNPC world, elves are almost equal in numbers to humans. The cities host many tribes, some of whom would be utterly foolhardy for a commoner to anger without serious political backing. I feel a well-dressed elf should be an invitation to be cautious. I'm open to persuasion, however, if you can make good arguments that the stereotype of elves ought to override their virtual numbers. I do think if four out of ten PCs were actually elven, even if these were split among many tribes who hated each other's guts, human PCs would be a lot more careful to ascertain the actual status of each individual elf before sneering openly at them.

Just roll up a character already!

Been in game for months. See "Catching up, Part 2: Tuluk" for my adventures among the gith.

Other stuff too thought-provoking not to comment on:

Just having more things to do would already make elves a lot more playable, in my opinion. I'd also love it if there were to be a southside Allanaki elven clan, and a clan without some of the more outlandish features the Akai Sjir have(which I can't comment on in this place.) I also realise that it is difficult, but a crimcode overhaul would make elves far more playable, too. Even though places like the Gaj have echoes of soldiers idly standing by as people get beaten to a pulp and carried off to god knows where, even though the authorities are supposedly corrupt and uncaring about what goes on in the poor districts, the npc soldiers are as dangerous there as elsewhere. I could see elves getting their family together to outright lynch people who've been too vicious to their family lately; I'd also imagine things such as muggings and thuggery to be commonplace in the Allanaki common quarter and the Tuluki Warrens. Yet in-game they aren't, partially because many characters are strong at combat themselves, and also because on an OOC level, everybody knows how vicious the response to crime is.

I'd love to see the crimcode revised around a less caring militia who only intervened when a victim was someone it cared about (perhaps some watchlist that started by default with House and Merchant House employees, and could be expanded with the favourites of templars and militia officers?), and maybe the odd group of vigilantes who kept their corner of the streets clean for certain tribes or groups.

I'd like to see elves who have reputations that go beyond "he's an elf" or even "he's a thief." I'd like to see elves who subvert the power structure in new ways -- like the subclass master weaponsmaker who provides mastercrafts to people outside "the system."

Yeah, I could really dig some orthogonal elven power structures. I'm not sure what form they should take though, beyond the obvious unit of the tribe. I'm sure some tribeless elves are running successful businesses. It feels though to me as though elves get stuck in an awkward place where an unduly high percentage of elf PCs are career criminals; this cannot sensibly reflect the VNPC life of the city. Most must be forced to make their living at relatively honest jobs despite their inclinations, sacrificing their aesthetics to the necessity of a steady income as with any wage slave, envious of those who've made scamming into a solid living. Feels like a seed for a whole new thread...

[Patuk]

I like your post, I really do. I agree with all of it, and wanted to comment further on this bit:

Yeah, I could really dig some orthogonal elven power structures. I'm not sure what form they should take though, beyond the obvious unit of the tribe. I'm sure some tribeless elves are running successful businesses. It feels though to me as though elves get stuck in an awkward place where an unduly high percentage of elf PCs are career criminals; this cannot sensibly reflect the VNPC life of the city. Most must be forced to make their living at relatively honest jobs despite their inclinations, sacrificing their aesthetics to the necessity of a steady income as with any wage slave, envious of those who've made scamming into a solid living. Feels like a seed for a whole new thread...

Whereas you're, again, absolutely spot on with this one, I don't see this one happening anytime soon. The current game environment is one where independent merchant characters make more money and have bigger crews than any GMH. So yes, there will be dungsweeping elves, elven beggars, elven craftsmen, elven whores, elven laborers, elven anything. But since a PC can't viably weave baskets or have sex or chisel figurines for a living whilst adhering to proper city elven documentation, I don't see any of this happening anytime soon.

[BleakOne]

I do think PC elves are much rarer than they should be, but with pretty good reason. They're a difficult race for many to play to due to alien mindset, the lack of choice of clans, and the hate they often receive.

Can't really do anything about the mindset without diluting what makes Elves into distinct.

It would be neat if they had a selection of family groups which could be chosen from, even if vague blood relation was the only benefit of being one of them (two or three southside Allanaki family groups, with no clan compounds or anything besides maybe a clan forum, would allow elves to actually have tribes).

As for the hate, I'm all for elf hate. I think, however, the vnpc population would make that hate boiling into grudges and violence much rarer than we actually see. Calling them filthy sharps would probably be a daily occurance, though.

[Quirk]

Whereas you're, again, absolutely spot on with this one, I don't see this one happening anytime soon. The current game environment is one where independent merchant characters make more money and have bigger crews than any GMH. So yes, there will be dungsweeping elves, elven beggars, elven craftsmen, elven whores, elven laborers, elven anything. But since a PC can't viably weave baskets or have sex or chisel figurines for a living whilst adhering to proper city elven documentation, I don't see any of this happening anytime soon.

I think they could be stretched a little bit to fit, I don't think it would have to be terribly far. Even without stretching it's possible to play basket-weaving or whoring or whatever as an elf, bargaining tenaciously to the limits of your ability, making others pay just a little more than they came in willing to pay. After all:

Even traders are thieves - indeed, many elves consider trading to be just a sophisticated form of theft. This makes many elves become merchants, but they tend to be the least scrupulous merchants around.

An analogy to elves and theft has been percolating round my head: sports fans who play their sport of choice.

Most such fans don't make a living out of the game they love, though they'd persuade you it's art, and more than art, to them. And mostly, after a certain age, they've resigned themselves to this. They keep their hand in where they can maybe, play a game on the weekend. They are also tribal - they'll diminish the accomplishments of an artist from another tribe even as they talk up the merits of their own. Still, some practitioners of their game will transcend boundaries for them to win a certain grudging respect.

I think most elves in the city probably are content to make small gains here and there, taking satisfaction from a hard-fought bargain or a customer picking up an item on the strength of an exaggerated description, for making a living in the fashion they'd most love to is realistically beyond their talent. But, for elves to live in the city in the numbers they do, I suspect a certain amount of complicity is involved with at least some humans. Maybe Amos who resells the elf Malik's baskets deliberately quotes him an unreasonably low price, letting Malik wheedle it up to the limit of what Amos is prepared to pay over the next few minutes and letting Malik depart with his pride intact. Maybe another of Malik's customers pretends to believe every unlikely word Malik tells him about the origin and manufacture of the baskets. In short, I imagine that there are face-saving formulae which are taken advantage of by elves who've given up hope of being the scamming legend of their tribe and are now just scraping by as best they can, fig leaves to cover what is now a tattered pride, consolations of the old and weak and down on their luck that are scorned by young, glib, successful elves.

Does this require stretching the roleplay docs? A little, perhaps, but I think it preserves their spirit. I'd love to see them rewritten to consider city elves as a race that has to scrape a living largely as an underclass, with consideration for the viewpoint of the elves of the commoners' quarters and the compromises that must be made by most of that race to preserve some semblance of their ideals.

In some ways I see this as being at least as important as background than as a new space opened up for PC characters. Players are already used to buying goods from elven NPCs, sometimes even food or water, but should an elven PC approach them selling something, they are likely to be greeted with deep suspicion. An understanding that elves are a massive part of the population, that you will be doing business with them, but that that may involve negotiating some pitfalls because they are untrustworthy bastards is I think more likely to breed interesting RP than trying to wedge in some kind of apartheid in which elves are either ignored or sneered at. I'd like to see a world in which humans threw out a few sops to elven pride when doing business, and hence were able to actually do business with elven PCs, but were always left wondering whether their supplier was going to tire of saving face and get ambitious.

And maybe, for some elves who've attained positions of trust, knowing that they could pull the trigger on the scam any time they want to and vanish into the night with a large bag of other people's sid is enough; a delicious possibility to be savoured every day.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Do city elves feel as well-represented by PCs where you are as the numbers suggest they ought to be? If not, why do you think this is?

No, but with good reason. As others said, there is a certain alienness to the mindset that requires a special sort of player to really enjoy playing that type of role, and to change the documentation to fit what people want to play more would be a disservice to the elven race and documentation by diluting the distinctions that staff and players alike have worked hard over the years to help give them.

Do you feel human distaste for elves is overdone, about right, or underplayed?

I feel like this is subjective. In Tuluk, in my opinion, it is underplayed, in Luir's, it seems actually pretty decent, and with good reason, I think, as Luir's is probably the settlement in the game that actually sees the most elven pc action. Albeit largely from desert elves, I feel like the suspicion and hardlines that exist but are not overwhelming, and the fact that Kurac (as the ones who run the settlement) allowing them to join the ranks acts, in a way, like elves being able to join the militia in red storm, as a sort of equalizer. In Allanak, I think that it -can- be overdone, but is often about right. I mean... yes, people want to throw a tizzy that the elf they just walked into the bar with isn't being talked to (neither are the vnpc elves), or is being glared at or regarded with suspicion... when being glared at, watched, and regarded with suspicion is a -common- reaction of people when they learn that someone is a pickpocket (and thus a thief), so why should it be expected to be any different with an elf (which is, according to the documentation, always a thief)?

See Mattrious' words on it (which I couldn't agree more with):

I think the player base in general underplays the proper amount of hate and distaste for elves. Though, I guess it's all depending on the PC. One thing I believe quite a few players forget is that elves are thieves. That's what they pride themselves on and it drives them. It's like a thirst that is unquenchable in regards to how they want to relieve someone of their possessions. They do not do it for wealth, they do not do it because its something that elevates their status over their mark. It's a superiority thing and if additional benefits come along with the actual theft, the better.

Do you want to see more city elves in game?

In Allanak, I think it would be nice to see more Jaxa, or a southside equivalent. I think Luir's could benefit from more city-based elven pcs, even if they did nothing but join the Fist or the like. In Tuluk, sometimes. Other times it feels like the pull that they can exert is way too high to be realistic.

If yes, what would encourage you to play city elves more?

Nothing, really. I don't enjoy the idea of playing someone who is pigeonholed into seeing theivery as an art when I find it detestable as a player. Everything has its place in game, but someone else can fill those roles. I don't play elves of the city -or- desert variety.

For veterans: are you more or less likely to play a city elf than you were a few years back?

This is unchanged. If the Akei'ta Var were opened up again, I'd likely be willing to give a d-elf another shot, but city elves are typically unappealing, partly just because I'm not a big fan of playing the sneaky guilds, myself.

Are there ways you'd like to see typical interaction between humans and elves improved?

I would like to defer to mattrious here:

Improved as in more fluffy and cuddly? No. Improved as in more, "Get the away from me you damn dirty neck!" Yes.

[HavokBlue]

Some people are forgetting that there are open clans for city elves in both cities.

[Lutagar]

Which celf tribe is open in allanak?

[BadSkeelz]

The Jaxa Pah, as the rinth is technically in Allanak. That's it, though.

[Lutagar]

Na, bro. Jaxa Pah isn't open for play. 

[BleakOne]

Na, bro. Jaxa Pah isn't open for play. 

I think it is... I think. 

[Malken]

Na, bro. Jaxa Pah isn't open for play. 

Yes it is.

From the clan's page -
Status: Open

[Lutagar]

2013-08-21 11:31:07AM (20 days ago)
Hi staff,

I wasn't entirely sure how Jaxa Pah family members are recruited - so I thought I'd go ahead and ask for a next character concept. Are they role-called on the GBD only? Is it possible for anyone to app one? Is it kosher to spec app for a magicker within the tribe?

Thanks,

<player name>

2013-08-25 20:24:25 (16 days ago)

<player name>,

The Jaxa Pah is currently closed for play, IC and OOC. We are retooling their documentation to make them a more playable aspect of the Labyrinth. When the tribe is open again, there will be a GDB notification.

Eurynomos
Storyteller
ArmageddonMUD Staff

Until that announcement goes up, they're closed for play. Sorry for the derail.

[BleakOne]

2013-08-21 11:31:07AM (20 days ago)
Hi staff,

I wasn't entirely sure how Jaxa Pah family members are recruited - so I thought I'd go ahead and ask for a next character concept. Are they role-called on the GBD only? Is it possible for anyone to app one? Is it kosher to spec app for a magicker within the tribe?

Thanks,

<player name>

2013-08-25 20:24:25 (16 days ago)

<player name>,

The Jaxa Pah is currently closed for play, IC and OOC. We are retooling their documentation to make them a more playable aspect of the Labyrinth. When the tribe is open again, there will be a GDB notification.

Eurynomos
Storyteller
ArmageddonMUD Staff

Until that announcement goes up, they're closed for play. Sorry for the derail.

Well darn, I stand corrected.

[BadSkeelz]

On the plus side, incoming doc changes! Woo! That'll be interesting to see.

[HavokBlue]

Oh, huh. That's news to me. Hope they're back soon. They were my first clan, I think.

[Wastrel]

It would be nice if there could be a few staff sponsored roles for the Pah

[bcw81]

It would be nice if there could be a few staff sponsored roles for the Pah

We already have desert templars and desert jihaen, do we really need more?