Carpets from Istanbul for artwork from Athens?

[Paladin]

I'm not impatient, I'm just starting to get fed up with being unable to do things on my own, not being able to join a clan or house, and having to deal with people who are trying to get me to quit just because I don't have awesome gear on.

I'm not making a third character.  Either this one takes off or I'm out of here.

My advice is to avoid taking IC treatment personally. I don't think there's any player in this game who will try to get you to quit playing because of what your PC is wearing. A fictional character someone is playing might be rude or rough with your character because of how they dress, but that's directed at your character, not you as a player.

I'm having trouble reading whether or not you want to join a clan or avoid other players, but Merchant Houses and sometimes noble houses will gladly employ almost any newbie crafter. That said, they won't come to you, and they don't know you exist until you reach out to them. If you aren't sure who to talk to, try hanging around your city's respective tavern and asking for names.

What I mean is that it seems like people recognize newbies by their gear and find IC reasons to get them to leave the game.

[BleakOne]

In that case I'd suggest filing a player complaint. People are not supposed to be doing that sort of stuff. Most of us welcome and support new players.

[HavokBlue]

I'm not impatient, I'm just starting to get fed up with being unable to do things on my own, not being able to join a clan or house, and having to deal with people who are trying to get me to quit just because I don't have awesome gear on.

I'm not making a third character.  Either this one takes off or I'm out of here.

My advice is to avoid taking IC treatment personally. I don't think there's any player in this game who will try to get you to quit playing because of what your PC is wearing. A fictional character someone is playing might be rude or rough with your character because of how they dress, but that's directed at your character, not you as a player.

I'm having trouble reading whether or not you want to join a clan or avoid other players, but Merchant Houses and sometimes noble houses will gladly employ almost any newbie crafter. That said, they won't come to you, and they don't know you exist until you reach out to them. If you aren't sure who to talk to, try hanging around your city's respective tavern and asking for names.

What I mean is that it seems like people recognize newbies by their gear and find IC reasons to get them to leave the game.

I can't say I've ever encountered or seen this myself but nobody should ever be doing this. If you think this is what is occurring, definitely file a player complaint with the request tool and staff will handle it.

[jstorrie]

You've gotta choose your 'tude, dude.

[Kryos]

I love your game reference in the title by the way, I played the crap out of that game.  One of the SNES greats.

Now, as for the problems you seem to be speaking on:  Most of the players who have the recruit power in a clan are considered 'important people' to varying degrees in the world.  They don't have any inclination to go out and seek out recruits, the common masses should be groveling at their feet for the chance to serve!  That being said, they are typically roles approved directly by the game's staff and they *will* seek to help out obviously new players.  Try to find them during 'prime time', around 7pm-11pm server.

Remember, however, that the world Armageddon is set in, is in a word:  harsh.  People *are* out to get your pc, *are* out to steal, *are* out to murder your pc if they get the chance.  This is the world that our pcs live in. 

Its also purposefully got a lot left out of the documentation, which I think you are feeling frustrated by.  But the reason for this is there's a great satisfaction and wonder for a player who discovers something on their character.  I've got a couple years under my belt and there's piles I don't know about a lot of things in the game.  The entry bar to a new player is pretty high, but, it also means there's something to do and see even years down the road.

And finally, I was frustrated to the point of almost not playing any more once upon a time, but I'm glad I stuck with it.

[Dresan]

I'm not impatient, I'm just starting to get fed up with being unable to do things on my own, not being able to join a clan or house, and having to deal with people who are trying to get me to quit just because I don't have awesome gear on.

I'm not making a third character.  Either this one takes off or I'm out of here.

Well its obvious you are frustrated and thats unfortunate.

However, in all my years of wandering in and out of this mud, i have never seen a newbie or new characters be turned away without extremely good IC reason. Infact the opposite is often true, clans often bend over to hiring whatever jackass shows a remote interest in joining them. They might not go actively searching for people (half the time) but you'd be surprised the song and dance a leader will give when they think you are willing to join. In reality though it should be the other way around, joining a clan should be the opportunity of a lifetime.  Now if you aren't the right race or in the right location you could have some trouble getting people to even look at you let alone talk to you but again thats something you can discuss in more detail with a helper.

There are several extremely successful merchants right now, and with warehouses added to the game a player can hire others and practically run their very own small minature companies/clan/etc. The key to making a successful merchant or a successful anything in this game is knowledge. You won't be aquiring that knowledge OOCly though, you need to figure it out with your character. However some IC methods you can go about it have already been mentioned. First, you can try to figure it out yourself. If you are having trouble doing that, you can find someone in game to teach you maybe by paying them, or working for them or forcing them to tell you. If that doesn't work, you could try joining a larger clan that would be happy to have you join their plots while teaching you all sorts of neat things. And if all that fails, you could contact a helper and get more tips and advice from them. Some methods might take longer then others but at the end it will always just take time.

One last thing, lets say that you figure out what to buy cheap in one place, and where you can sell it for insane profit; don't think it will be easy for your character. If you want to do more then just survive, expect some more challenges at least. The best place to sell your product made out of specifc material will probably take more thought and co-ordination for you to reach. Again, there are people who can do it, have done it, and are doing it right now in the game. I am sure its only a matter of time before you figure out how to make your merchant successful. However as i said its unfortunate you feel frustrated because working on gaining that IC knowledge and being able to overcome some of those early challenges should be  part of what makes the game fun.

I wish you luck in whatever you decide to do.

[Barzalene]

There are some newbies running around with descriptions that are deliberately off-putting. That too will make life a lot harder.

Also this idea of why should I have to ask someone condescend to give my pc a job may not be the happiest way to look at it.

It's true, new characters often start at the bottom of the feeding pool. A lot of people want to be strong and admired and Arm doesn't offer that experience out of the box. There is a a lot of ass-kissing in Arm. And there's always someone bigger and badder. I think to enjoy the game we have to accept that this is a given.

If a recruiter gives your pc a job they are doing your pc a favor. If a player's character gives your pc a job they are not doing you a favor. They're collaborating with you. They're hoping you will come play with them. They're hoping that you'll be entertained by their pc and that you can make interesting stories. They're hoping you'll have fun in their clan and that they'll enjoy (or hate with great angst) the experience of interacting with you on a regular basis.

Yes, pc have to kiss ass. But you don't. It's an important distinction.

[Lizzie]

Hello and welcome to the world of Zalanthan merchanting. I'll use hypotheticals because I don't know the actual formulae, nor do I care to know the actual formulae, and even if I did, it's against the rules to discuss it here.

So you're in Allanak, and you are at the raw goods shop. You find a chunk of bahamet shell for 200 sids. You use your barter skill to offer less, and, without pissing off the merchant and getting kicked out of the shop til tomorrow, you agree to 185 sids for the piece of shell.

And now, you make a bahamet shell bangle.

You bring it to the Kadian merchant, who offers you only 150 sids for it. He sells the exact same ones for 1050 sids each. You try to barter and get at least 200 sids for it, but you get kicked out of the shop before the merchant gets to 190.

So you bring it to some random merchant in the marketplace, and only get offered 45 sids for it. This merchant sells the exact same one for 800 sids each. Obviously you won't get what you paid for, for the raw material, so you keep walking.

Eventually, you find a merchant who will offer you 221 sids for it, after bartering up from 175. Except - he's out of coins for the day. This guy sells the same ones for 400 sids each.

When you type "value bangle" for the one you're selling, you are shown that it's supposedly only worth 250 sids.

This is a typical experience in the coded world of the Armageddon merchanting system. Just be glad you're in a place where you can find an NPC who buys jewelry at all; there are some areas in the game where such merchants don't exist.

What you're learned upon this brief adventure through the market:

1. "Value" doesn't show what the merchants are selling things for, it's showing what merchants are *buying* things for. So that number will be significantly lower than what the high-end fancy Kadian is selling the thing for in his market shop. Never expect to get that much from an NPC; you won't.

2. Your barter skill needs improvement. Keep practicing. Learn how to barter to the point of *almost* getting kicked out of shops, but not quite.

3. Not all merchants will buy/sell the same things for the same amount of money. You need to keep exploring til you find the best bang for your buck - or in your case, the best buck for your bang. This *might* mean travelling to another city entirely. People in Allanak wear lots of jewelry, and bahamet shell isn't the most popular material to make it with, so it's possible you might find better profits bringing that particular bangle to another center of trade.

4. Don't make lots of expensive-to-make stuff, expecting to unload it all in one or two trips to an NPC market. You'll end up frustrated, carrying around a lot of crap that won't sell at all, and no money for water and food. Instead, make just one or two pieces of nice somethingorother. Make a couple of little nothing doodads, and perhaps a cheapo ring or two from stones you've gathered outside the gates (meaning, you didn't pay for them at all). That way, at the end of the day, you will at least have enough money to 1) buy one raw material tomorrow and 2) have a sip of water.

5. Next time you run into a piece of bahamet shell, you'll want to try making something different with it, because clearly the bangle you made won't bring you the profits you need.

That is survival advice, designed to get you through the frustration of finding someone with the authority and interest to hire you into a clan. It's not intended to sustain you for a long stretch of time. These are things your *character* should have learned if your character had gone on the hypothetical adventure I outlined above.

And don't forget grebbing (foraging), and scrounging (checking through garbage heaps and even just stuff that's abandoned on the road or on the shop floors and taking them to other shops to see if someone will buy them).

[Nyr]

I'm not impatient, I'm just starting to get fed up with being unable to do things on my own, not being able to join a clan or house, and having to deal with people who are trying to get me to quit just because I don't have awesome gear on.

I'm not making a third character.  Either this one takes off or I'm out of here.

Reach out to a helper? Are you sure you picked the right race for the location? I'm just saying some choices can make this game -very- hard on you.

I wish I could help you more but we're not allowed to discuss IC stuff on the board. Maybe open a question request and see if staff can field some questions?

I made recommended choices.

As a staffer, I know what choices you made, and they aren't the recommended ones--at least, most of them are not.

1.  Talk to helpers.  They can chat with you at a moment's notice, most of the time!
2.  Play a human.  Half-elves are looked down on by BOTH elves and dwarves, and they generally do not get to rise to positions of rank in the majority of organizations in the world.  Dwarves might not be hated as much as half-elves and elves, but they have a certain stigma about them and they ALSO will not get to rise to positions of rank in the majority of organizations in the world.  Elves?  Elves suck, everyone knows it except elves.  Not only do they not rise to positions of rank in the majority of organizations in the world, they don't even get allowed in.  The only race that faces no stigma or prejudice by default is the human race, so you should pick that one and you'll have a much easier time of people working to help you.  That's why it is recommended to take human as a racial choice.  Even then, you don't want to pick a human from the Labyrinth in Allanak (you'll STILL have trouble getting hired)!
3.  If you're given advice on what to do, giving it a decent "college try" will reap results.  For instance, if you're trying to sell stuff, if you only craft one thing to try to sell and only try to sell that one thing in a few places and get no results, you're going to feel disappointed and frustrated.  Take some time to try to figure out what didn't work.  In this case, each place you tried to sell at was a place that doesn't buy the thing you're trying to sell.  One of them is only a seller (I explained above).  Another of them is only a seller (and a customized one at that).  Another of them was a tailor (they "tailor" your clothes to your size).  Another two places didn't sell what you want to sell to them, so it stands to reason they may not want to buy it.  Check the map for the city you're in and go to the trade district and give it a shot there.  However...maybe try making something else!  See what IS sold in shops.  Try to make some other stuff.  However, as a new player and a new player to merchants, you might want to try the next step!
4.  Request storage for your character (through the request tool) and go with a human merchant and look to join House Kadius or an independent group.  You can ask around in-game and you'll find people willing to help a human out.

I'm not impatient, I'm just starting to get fed up with being unable to do things on my own, not being able to join a clan or house, and having to deal with people who are trying to get me to quit just because I don't have awesome gear on.

You can get enough gear in the "starter shops" that your gear won't scream "newbie."  And generally, people do not try to get you to quit just because you don't have awesome gear on.  Now, beware the guy wanting to go hang out with you in private (because he might want to take your coins and your not-so-awesome gear).  THAT might happen.  But no one is going to try and make you quit the game because you don't have awesome gear.  Might they treat your PC poorly in an in-character fashion because of where your character is from or because of what race your character is?  Yes.  That's in-character.  The player probably hates that they have to do that, but this is the kind of game they (and you) chose to play--a game in which racial prejudice is roleplayed out.

I'm not making a third character.  Either this one takes off or I'm out of here.

I really doubt your character is going to take off because it is not the recommended role for new players.  We are definitely trying to help.  I know you're frustrated, but I would strongly suggest storing and giving it a shot with a human.

[Feco]

We love you.

Our characters just may not get along.

[X-D]

I am simply going to back everything Nyr said.

And add, With current world wide IC events. People playing out the racism has actually increased...along with hatred for other things like where somebody might be from...or not from.

[Harmless]

Merchants are a hard role, one that takes a lot of time commitment and really necessitates having a mentor in the game! If you select merchant and anything besides human as your race, you are playing EXTRA SUPER DOUBLE HARD MODE, it is the armageddon equivalent to trying to play as a half-giant mage (as a loose example), or a half-orcish bard from another setting.

Please read all of Nyr's post above, but if you wanted more options, then you can consider the below:

Alternative to playing a merchant main guild: you can select a crafter subguild for your next character (in addition to playing as a human to make being on good terms with other merchants a lot easier).

If you select an armorcrafter or weaponcrafter subguild, you can seek employment with House Salarr.

If you select the tailor or jeweler subguilds, you can seek employment with House Kadius.

Here are some good ground rules for both of the above: be human, and do not get too friendly with elves or half-elves.

Good luck, and welcome! Remember, we the players want you to stay!

[slvrmoontiger]

Half-elves are definitely by far one of the most difficult races to play, especially half-elf merchants? Have I seen it done and done well? Yes, I have. Was that player a newbie, I doubt it.

Half-elves are hated by the Known over. Next to muls they are the most hated of all races. The issues that affect half-elves besides general world hatred are also extremely difficult to RP.

The best advice is to play a human to start out. Interact with as many different races as you can and learn how people play those races before playing them. Learn the city and the surrounding wilderness if need be. The first ever character is going to be difficult because you are learning something totally new. That's why the documentation suggests playing a human as your first character. I would recommend further that you play a human warrior with some sort of subguild of crafting if that's what you are interested in. There are many subguilds available that allow for crafting and those are a good start. As a human warrior you pretty much have unlimited possibilities for getting hired.

Welcome to Armageddon and hope you find something less frustrating to play in the future.

[Paladin]

Merchant is supposedly recommended for new players.  I don't see why I should have to be forced into seeking someone out in order to get anywhere in a newbie profession, just to learn and do the most basic merchant tasks.  It would make sense that I'd want to become connected with others in order to actually get going on moving up in a timely fashion and make more than just a few pennies per sale, but without being forced to sit on my hands until then.  I'd learn the game stuff on my own while gradually developing my connections socially.

I wouldn't say that this game is especially difficult--so far, it's been more like playing an arcade game with half the buttons not working than a bullet Hell SHMUP with only one life.  For a while I played a one-life-only game where 80% of the stuff I needed to buy, and 100% of the people I had to sell them to, were in a city where my character was not welcome; I had to leave the tent settlement and walk through a dangerous wilderness to get there and then contend with the people in the city, but at least there was no shoddy economic system preventing me from learning how basic class things worked in that particular game.

Again, I'm not going through the hassle of making a third character if this one doesn't take off.  If I can't even do basic merchant tasks on my own (remember, merchant is for newbies), what good is the rest of the game anyway?  Racial problems only manifest by hanging out in places where racial enemies hang out, and that's not difficult at all to avoid.

[Nyr]

Merchant is supposedly recommended for new players.  I don't see why I should have to be forced into seeking someone out in order to get anywhere in a newbie profession, just to learn and do the most basic merchant tasks.  It would make sense that I'd want to become connected with others in order to actually get going on moving up in a timely fashion and make more than just a few pennies per sale, but without being forced to sit on my hands until then.  I'd learn the game stuff on my own while gradually developing my connections socially.

Merchant is recommended for new players.  Humans are, too.  You didn't follow that recommendation.  If you don't see why you should try to learn how the game works by getting help from other players' PCs in an IC way, then I'm afraid you're going to have a bad time of it and this will probably be your last character (by your own reckoning). You also won't become connected with others because of the racial choice you've made, which is quite important and cannot be divorced from the guild choice you made (which was smart). You aren't forced to sit on your hands until then, you just need to do more than craft one thing and sell it in places that it doesn't make much sense to sell it.  You really should talk to a helper and ask your questions there, because they can guide you along (often in real time) and show you the things you're doing wrong.

but at least there was no shoddy economic system preventing me from learning how basic class things worked in that particular game.

You tried to sell one item to five shops, three of which only sell things, two of which don't even sell or buy the thing you tried to sell.  That doesn't mean the economic system is shoddy, it means you have more to learn and more work to do.  No, it's not the best economic system ever, but this is not an example of it being shoddy.  That's why we're suggesting trying some other things and even trying a new character of a type that is recommended for new players.

If I can't even do basic merchant tasks on my own (remember, merchant is for newbies), what good is the rest of the game anyway?

Remember, human is for newbies as well.  You can't separate the guild from the race and act like doing half of what is recommended is fine.  Guild choice is not something that meets with prejudice unless you're a magicker or a psionicist.  Racial choice meets with prejudice and difficulties that must be seen as IC difficulties (and not the other players trying to keep you from enjoying the game--this IS part of the game).

You're wanting to go this alone without accepting help from players (the helpers), other players (on the GDB--you seem to spurn all suggestions provided), or staff (you haven't put in a request for help or wished up).  You seem very convinced you're going to do this on your own with no help from anyone, and if it doesn't work out, it's because we are trying to keep you from joining in. 

It seems like you've already made up your mind, so I guess...go ahead and give it a shot!   However, if you can't be bothered to listen to other players, what good is posting on this forum for help anyway?

Racial problems only manifest by hanging out in places where racial enemies hang out, and that's not difficult at all to avoid.

Human is the dominant race.  You'd be surprised where they hang out (i.e., everywhere except where half-elves hang out, which is nowhere, and where elves hang out, which is about half of the 'rinth).

I know how all of the crafting skills work.

I would be willing to bet that you don't.  You just used the skill for the first time yesterday right not an hour before posting this thread.  I'd recommend once again that you accept the advice offered here, we are definitely trying to help, but you don't seem to want any help.

[Paladin]

If I didn't want help I wouldn't be asking.  If you aren't posting here to help, what are you here for?

My problems have nothing to do with racial concerns.  Race accounts for about 0% of my problems so far.

[Nyr]

Okay then.  I'll lock this thread so you can focus on reading and doing some of things suggested here.