Seeming lack of religion on Zalanthas

[ShaLeah]

I feel like I'd prefer morning devotions in Zalanthas to the painfully awkward morning devotions I was dragged into as a child.

As is most religion.

[Incognito]

The reason why the concept of the Sorcerer-Kings being the ONLY principal forms of religion/worship on Zalanthas isn't potable, stems from the fact that they are mortal. There is knowledge of when they were born/took over power/overthrew their predecessor(s).

It stands to reason that in times before the current Sorcerer-Kings rose to power, there must/should have been other beliefs (beings/deities/gods etc), which should not have been eradicated so thoroughly from the entire population's history.

[BadSkeelz]

We know the Sorceror-Kings are mortal, cause we have access to the history page. I'd say the point's debatable for a society that's 99% illiterate with a rather low life expectancy. I don't think Zalanthans have a very good grasp on history.

It stands to reason that in times before the current Sorcerer-Kings rose to power, there must/should have been other beliefs (beings/deities/gods etc), which should not have been eradicated so thoroughly from the entire population's history.

Ever met a practicing Mithradite? Or a Tengri? Religions get wiped out all the time, historically speaking.

[Nyr]

The reason why the concept of the Sorcerer-Kings being the ONLY principal forms of religion/worship on Zalanthas isn't potable, stems from the fact that they are mortal.  There is knowledge of when they were born/took over power/overthrew their predecessor(s).

To your first point, are they mortal?  That's a good question.  Muk Utep is over a thousand years old and so is Tektolnes.  While some definitions of "immortal" might mean "perpetual, constant, or otherwise everlasting," I don't really think that anyone is claiming that Tektolnes or Muk Utep always existed (though the templarate may indeed choose to do that and if they do, well, what are you gonna do, correct them?).  However, most definitions of mortal lead one to believe that something that is mortal is "subject to death" or "having a transitory life."   The evidence tends towards both sorcerer-kings having powers that defy the imagination (and mortality).  They have lived far beyond the span of all other known sentient life on Zalanthas.  Whether or not they are actually immortal (cannot die) or effectively immortal (have not died yet) doesn't matter.  The end result is the same for the average denizen of the Known World.  They are beacons of power that cannot be outshone by much else.

It stands to reason that in times before the current Sorcerer-Kings rose to power, there must/should have been other beliefs (beings/deities/gods etc), which should not have been eradicated so thoroughly from the entire population's history.

There may have been other beliefs (beings, deities, gods, etc) , and due to the evidence presented, they have been eradicated quite thoroughly from the majority of the population's history.

[Desertman]

The reason why the concept of the Sorcerer-Kings being the ONLY principal forms of religion/worship on Zalanthas isn't potable, stems from the fact that they are mortal. There is knowledge of when they were born/took over power/overthrew their predecessor(s).

I give you: (And it is common knowledge this guy was captured, tortured, and died. All within the timeframe of a normal human lifespan. Still, god status.)

[ShaLeah]

The reason why the concept of the Sorcerer-Kings being the ONLY principal forms of religion/worship on Zalanthas isn't potable, stems from the fact that they are mortal. There is knowledge of when they were born/took over power/overthrew their predecessor(s).

I give you:

Lol Dman you rock.

[MeTekillot]

yeah but he reportedly rose from the dead and brought a bunch of other people back from the dead and exploded snakes and healed the sick by touching them

[Desertman]

yeah but he reportedly rose from the dead and brought a bunch of other people back from the dead and exploded snakes and healed the sick by touching them

Rose from the dead is admitting he died to begin with. One of those was witnessed by an entire city. One was supposedly witnessed by three people.

Tektolnes, never died.

Did he turn into a mother-f'n dragon and destroy dwarven hordes? Did he bury an entire city with a wave of his hand?

Meanwhile, Jesus is all, "Hey bros, I'll turn this water into wine for you."

Tektolnes: "Yo', have these magical sorcerer powers to rule over my followers my templarate bruthas. Enjoy the fireballs. Fo'realz."

I'm fairly certainly Tektolnes could take Jesus in a fight.

I'm willing to present my case should this thread turn in that direction.

[Nyr]

Yeah, I mean...I wasn't going to go there, I figured someone else would bring it up.

[Desertman]

Yeah, I mean...I wasn't going to go there, I figured someone else would bring it up.

I got yo' back.

[musashi]

Yeah, any abstract notion of "education" or "literacy" being universal goods because they increase "efficiency" strikes me as simply an ideology of modern capitalism where we basically worship money and economic growth.  I'm not even convinced it's entirely true.  Literacy is generally believed to have been like Zalanthas-level low in ancient Egypt.  But they still built the pyramids, the Sphinx, tombs full of dazzling artifacts, etc.

I feel compelled to mention that this is because they had educated aristocracy and lots and lots of slaves..

I feel compelled to mention that scholars now believe the pyramids/etc were not built by slaves but rather by normal people as a form of civil service. It appears that they were compensated for their time working on the project (one way in which they were compensated was BEER), and they rotated people in and out of the work.

Edit: Hmm, seems this hypothesis was discarded amended by some and the new theories involve lots of skilled laborers rotating in and out. Still, the massive numbers of slaves hypothesis has been pretty well discredited in recent years.

http://harvardmagazine.com/2003/07/who-built-the-pyramids-html?page=0,4 For those interested.

On topic: Bow down before the dragon, heathens!

Edited again for Patuk's comment below, because farmers working on the pyramids seems to be ruled out for the most part. Chinese silk, however, was often produced by the daughters (almost exclusively, silk production was done by women) of small-medium sized landowning farmers.

Thanks for typing that before I had to  

Also re: Dman: Yez, and Jesus isn't the only example of mortal men dying and being defied. It was all the rage during the time Christianity was still a cult and its dogma being solidified. Funny enough though, earliest works on Jesus have him as a God like figure first, and his entire life/death/rebirth all happening "in the heavens" rather than on earth. But he, like many other competing personal salvation cults of the time, became a mortal in subsequent retellings.

Just ... kinda interesting that in order for him to go pro, he had to go from god to mortal, rather than from mortal to god.

Maybe that's why Muk Utep has been making so many appearances in the past King's Age. Needs to seem human first before he goes super sayian.

[Desertman]

DBZ reference in a religious post ftw.  

Edited to Add: The concept was just too funny for me. I had to look it up. It exists.

[Suhuy]

The lack of sexism on Zalanthas was built around the desire to make the game more accommodating to players of every gender, orientation, etc. I've always been under the assumption that the lack of religion in game was built around a similar desire, to free players from the real world religious persecutions they may be suffering. This game is a form of escapism and incorporating large-scale religions, in my opinion, doesn't really help one escape.

[James de Monet]

*JDM eyes this thread warily.*

[musashi]

You notice: musashi begins approaching the thread quietly ...

[Morrolan]

Morrolan eyes the thread morbidly.

[musashi]

The lack of sexism on Zalanthas was built around the desire to make the game more accommodating to players of every gender, orientation, etc. I've always been under the assumption that the lack of religion in game was built around a similar desire, to free players from the real world religious persecutions they may be suffering. This game is a form of escapism and incorporating large-scale religions, in my opinion, doesn't really help one escape.

Well, religious beliefs do exist in game among groups that don't happen to live under the thralldom of a god king (and I find the fantasy setting all the richer for it btw), and I don't personally think that having religions in game would drive away religious people the way that having sexism in game would drive away women ... ...

I always figured the lack of open religion in the city states was easily paralleled with the lack of open religion in Stalin's Russia. When the brutal oppressive government says worship the state or die ... ... *shrug*

[Barzalene]

The lack of sexism on Zalanthas was built around the desire to make the game more accommodating to players of every gender, orientation, etc. I've always been under the assumption that the lack of religion in game was built around a similar desire, to free players from the real world religious persecutions they may be suffering. This game is a form of escapism and incorporating large-scale religions, in my opinion, doesn't really help one escape.

Well, religious beliefs do exist in game among groups that don't happen to live under the thralldom of a god king (and I find the fantasy setting all the richer for it btw), and I don't personally think that having religions in game would drive away religious people the way that having sexism in game would drive away women ... ...

I always figured the lack of open religion in the city states was easily paralleled with the lack of open religion in Stalin's Russia. When the brutal oppressive government says worship the state or die ... ... *shrug*

I also thought it was in many ways an ooc decision to keep people from having to reconcile their religious beliefs with acting out contradictory beliefs.

[Morrolan]

I also thought it was in many ways an ooc decision to keep people from having to reconcile their religious beliefs with acting out contradictory beliefs.

And even moreso (and we see this in this thread) the challenge of contradicting Western conceptions of religion.

What if a religion isn't centered around belief, but ritual and obligation?
What is a deity isn't transcendent, but immanent?
What if a religion doesn't define a "one true way" but is coterminous with an ethnic identity?

These are all tough nuts to swallow for most Westerners (and probably most of the players). And even harder to explain to newbs.

"Yes, it's a religion. No, it doesn't give an ethical list of things not to do. Instead it tells you when to make appropriate sacrifices to maintain a relationship with your dead ancestors..."

"Oh, you mean it's evil pagan witchcraft?"

"No, that's something else..."
OOC That requires karma.

OOC Karma...?

OOC NEVERMIND. NO RELIGION.

[hatchets]

I am of 'western faith' which makes me laugh when I hear that said.

Religion in roleplay is almost certain to be different then religion in the real world. First and foremost, people throw fireballs (heh heh heh, had to throw that in there) who's to say there is not a god of fire? Templars recieve powers from their god-king, which while may not be completely common knowledge to the common citizen, what is knowledge is that they are the law and above what ever law they set. In the real world neither of these things really happen (well we try to pretend it doesn't happen on the law part atleast).

But again, any religion aside from the prominent god-king of the region would be stomped out. Even if a gicker took the time to try and form a religious cult to their element, they couldn't very well walk around talking about it, they would be found out, so growing their cult would prove a difficult task (although a fun one I imagine). Aswell, as someone commented about a possible religion to the moons and suns, There are sects named after each one, perhaps you show more devout loyalty to one of these sects.

Truthfully, I believe Arm is full of religion, and religious possibility and askewment. Go out, under the red sun, and in the name of the Jihaen, kill a southerner.

I think what people are looking for is guidance into doing such things. Rules of worship, going to church on sunday, killing three tregils on the third day of the second month. And other such things. Make them up as you go, make up an arguement as to why, and maybe others will follow out of superstition. You don't want to do such things? Go to Morning Devotion for your god king, and point fingers and speak of the blasphemous ways of others that stay sitting in the tavern at such times, who knows, maybe a templar will join in for kicks.

[Morrolan]

I am of 'western faith' which makes me laugh when I hear that said.

Maybe this is why, in the 80s and early 90s, RPGs were linked (in the minds of some wingnuts) with Satanism, etc.

RPGs really do help people with understanding other peoples, cultures, and ways of life. Which, to some people's minds, makes them Eeeee-vil.

[Lizzie]

I assumed religion didn't exist as an organized thing in Armageddon because the concept just didn't fit the theme.  Real-world religious persecution issues didn't even occur to me (and I'm a member of a religion that has been persecuted for millenia).

[Desertman]

The Templars are specifically referred to as soldier-priests in the documentation.

A soldier, and a priest.

Priest....

Also, we have morning devotions in game. You show up in the morning to sit before an idol and a priest while they preach.

If those things don't point out that there is religion, I'm not sure what else could.

As a side note, if the things that happen in Armageddon generally don't go against someone's RL religion, I would be interested to know what sort of actual RL religion they are part of. I might join up.

[Vwest]

I'm saying it plain now, if a PC named Geesus walks into the Gaj and starts handing out wine, I'm gonna kill him on the fucking spot, IC or not.

[Delirium]

New vivaduan concept...

I'M JOKING DON'T HURT ME.