Seeming lack of religion on Zalanthas

[Incognito]

This topic has been discussed many times over the years. Superficial searches on the current and old GDB's have not revealed much on the subject, except the generic "find out IC". In any case, it's not a bad idea to review something from time to time.

Here's the issue:
Zalanthans apparently don't believe in Gods (as far as generally-available documentation points out).
Zalanthans apparently believe in (or against) powerful beings (who are understood to be currently alive.)
Certain portions of the Zalanthan population revere deceased ancestors / tribe members.
Certain beings who exhibit magickal abilities, do worship an "element".
A few pockets of beings do worship some larger aspects like "the land" or "nature" etc - but this isn't wide-spread.


The surprising (or illogical) part is:
Since the dawn of time, Zalanthans have no references to elemental deities.
Zalanthans do not seem to worship the Sun or Moons either.
Nor do Zalanthans worship any religious figures either based on race, creed or geographical location.
There is no concept of "good" and "evil" or "heaven and hell" or "salvation and damnation" in the Zalanthan psychology.
There is no personification or idolization or characterization of the elements. (i.e. I believe in "fire" - not "fire god" or "fire deity" or "some sort of manifestation of a higher pyro-based being".)
Zalanthans have not come up with the concept of a "higher being" or "higher power".


An absence of any of these sort of references, seems to indicate a deficiency in Zalanthan thought process since the dawn of time.
Don't Zalanthans think about where they've come from? Or who made them? Or where do they go once they die?
Don't Zalanthans contemplate why they have less and others have more? Why their crops died, and the neighbours' survived?
Don't Zalanthans believe in superstitions and luck?
Can people who are so technologically, psionically, magickally and commercially evolved, remain so blatantly backward spiritually?


Is this naturally possible, realistically? Or is it something that has been specifically and purposely omitted from the game?

[musashi]

It's a conspiracy perpetrated by the Evangelicals of the United States.

Once the game gets really popular they'll turn around point to it and say:

See that's what you get when you have a world without God, murder corruption and betrayal!

[HavokBlue]

If your neighbor's children are healthier than yours, they're probably wealthier. Or maybe they're a witch, and they've put a curse on you by sneezing in your direction.

If, despite being perfectly healthy, you come down with an illness, it was that merchant who you called a necker for being so cheap with his coins. He obviously used foul magick to poison you.

If, despite being perfectly healthy, your neighbor's annoying children come are suddenly infected with the plague, leaving everyone else in the tenement plague-free... the Highlord is smiling upon you and rewarding you for all your prayers and hard work.

[Qzzrbl]

Hmm.... This might be worth looking into!

In either city state, I can see the lack of spirituality. They're ruled by God-Kings, and putting your faith in anything else could well get you branded a heretic and dealt with accordingly-- and it's been that way since as far back as anyone can remember. Nobody in their right mind would deny love and devotion for their saviour King under a templar's gaze. I could see sun and moon worship in Tuluk though, as who else would give us such gifts of light than our almighty Muk Utep? Same goes for the black moon, in Allanak.

But what of people in Red Storm or Luir's?

Oh, and there's a whole page in the helpfiles dedicated to superstitions and whatnot.

[Lizzie]

I don't know if it's been retconned since I can't find it, or if it's just not yet been included on the new website. But there was a magick roleplaying doc at one point. It alluded to the concept of religious belief in Zalanthas. Note this doesn't mean religion. One can have a religious belief, and not categorize themselves into any particular religion. Sort of like, in real life terms, one does not have to be a Wiccan, in order to be a pagan. But Wiccans are pagan.

Religion implies a belief system, and in Zalanthas, it's not systemized. But there are religious beliefs. That's why there exist zealots who genuinely and sincerely worship Tektolnes and give their respects every morning at the steel dragon.

Note also that superstition and religious belief might be connected, but they are not the same thing. You can have superstition without a religious belief system. Bad things happen means the sorcerer-king of the other city caused it. Monumentally good things happening is the result of your sorcerer-king's benevolence. In Luir's, it's because the family Kurac is mighty. In Red Storm it's all about the Sandlord. The most high and mighty of each area gets the credit, and their enemy's most high and mighty takes the blame. And when you don't want to credit/blame the most high and mighty, then you can credit/blame a magicker or an element. They share almost equal responsibility for all the ills of the Known. When there's a nasty sandstorm that lasts for weeks, then it's obviously because Whira and Ruk are tossing in the furs again.

As to specific points: the previously aforementioned docs implied (though seemed pretty intentionally absent of clarity) that the elements themselves might be worshipped by some as deities. The player was left to roleplay their character's personal belief how they saw fit. Yes, Whira and Ruk and Nilaz etc. are elemental planes of existence where the elements come from. But - who's running those planes? What power or powers exist, to ensure that these planes don't come crashing down to the Known one day and explode the planet? Is there an answer? Is there even a theory? THAT is left to the player to decide.

And so yes, there is certainly room for individual religious beliefs about the elements. But there is no documented indication of any -organized- religious beliefs about the elements. Perhaps *that* is something you could explore (or create) IC.

Also, your Rinthi might very well believe in a higher power. But he'll also know to keep it on the down-low because any reference to anything other than Tek being the big-guy-in-charge would get him noticed. And for a rinthi, being noticed means being dead. There's no reason why you, as a player, can't have a character attempt to create a *system* of beliefs - aka an organized religion. You just have to accept that it probably will fail. Not guaranteed to fail unless the staff chimes in and says "thou shalt have no belief systems about anything, ever, anywhere in the game, period."

[Delusion]

Do you perhaps mean this, Lizzie?

http://armageddon.org/help/view/magick%20power

"The names of the powers, old folklore has it, are the seven great horns of God (though this reference, and the concepts involved, are hotly debated by scholars all across the Known World), and their names call the spirits to service."

[Nyr]

From searches on the subject, I think there's a little more than "find out IC" out there.  At least one of these had to be moved to Archives (it was in Ask the Players, a now-defunct board).  As a side note, if anyone recalls particularly great discussions from Ask the Players, let me know.  I'll be going through there and moving the best ones over to Archives.

A link that has players discussing it in depth, from 2005
Ask the Staff post from 2010:  Religion in Allanak
Related player discussion originally in the Ask the Players forum from 2010
A player-created, player collaboration document on religion in Zalanthas:  2010
Note that I didn't really think that collaboration was the way it should go and commented as such there.

Some pertinent points I thought were worth a quote:

City-State: god = sorceror king.

Tribals: they have various beliefs and things that they worship already.

Kurac: spice?

I don't understand why you would think it necessary to have any of those things officially determined.

Develop your own liturgy.  The absence of an official documented one doesn't mean that you can't make one or even submit it.
Develop your own standard prayers.  See above.
Develop your own standard form of worship.  See above.
Develop your own beliefs about the god kings.  They could be wrong.  If heretical, they may get you killed.  Welcome to Zalanthas.
Develop your own holy days.  You can even do an RPT and invite people every year for it.
Find out a way to show your devotion yourself. 
Figure out why Muk Utep and Tektolnes don't explain officially who and what they are.  I'm not sure this would be IC for many characters, though.
Find out what goes on in the temple of the dragon yourself.  Can't see anything but a fountain and a white-robed templar?  When did these white robed templars appear?  Why are they there?  When did this happen?  You can figure all of this out by browsing the website at the very least.

Saying that you can't do these things is a cop out.

Players play what they want to play (within the reasonable boundaries of documentation); this stuff isn't documented because it's up to the players to determine it.

The one area I'd point out as a conflicting point is that Muk Utep and Tektolnes have no reason to explain what they are, and that Muk Utep and Tektolnes do appear to establish their worship in a de facto manner (there is nothing else to legitimately worship in a popular, open way in either city-state, therefore, they are worshiped).  Tektolnes has a temple devoted to him.  Devotions are done daily.  Utep's City is as full of zealots as Allanak, so how does this happen?  Make your own connections here.

[Nyr]

The surprising (or illogical) part is:
Since the dawn of time, Zalanthans have no references to elemental deities.

I doubt the rulers of either city-state would encourage that, so any such references would be something that would be stamped out or "underground."

Zalanthans do not seem to worship the Sun or Moons either.

See above.

Nor do Zalanthans worship any religious figures either based on race, creed or geographical location.

See above, except in the case of tribals where this actually isn't true.

There is no concept of "good" and "evil" or "heaven and hell" or "salvation and damnation" in the Zalanthan psychology.

Unless you're a noble or a templar or even a family member of a great merchant house, your life essentially does not matter.  Good and evil are relative as it is and I think most Zalanthans would understand that or act on that.  Feel free to develop your own superstitions in-game, just recognize that there's no official ones that tie all or most Zalanthans together.

There is no personification or idolization or characterization of the elements. (i.e. I believe in "fire" - not "fire god" or "fire deity" or "some sort of manifestation of a higher pyro-based being".)

This can be done on a personal basis if you'd prefer or if your character wished to do so, but otherwise, the reason is "see above."  There are at least a few logs that hint at this, too.

Zalanthans have not come up with the concept of a "higher being" or "higher power".

They see the evidence of "higher power" in the city-states they dwell in, and both city-states actively would and do stamp out anything else, so...

An absence of any of these sort of references, seems to indicate a deficiency in Zalanthan thought process since the dawn of time.

Nope.

Don't Zalanthans think about where they've come from? Or who made them? Or where do they go once they die?

They sure could, and any widespread beliefs that would approximate a religion would (again) probably not be in the best interest of those in power, therefore it would be stamped out.

Don't Zalanthans contemplate why they have less and others have more? Why their crops died, and the neighbours' survived?

Yeah.  If you have less and you're not highborn, it's because you're not highborn.  Highborn have more because they are better than you.  Higher social class people have more because they are better than you.  If your crops died, you'd probably blame some superstition that you are free to create.

Don't Zalanthans believe in superstitions and luck?

We have a whole page on this.  I'm porting it over from the old site as we speak.  Edit:  Done!

Can people who are so technologically, psionically, magickally and commercially evolved, remain so blatantly backward spiritually?

Yes, I think so.  Most of them.

Is this naturally possible, realistically? Or is it something that has been specifically and purposely omitted from the game?

Realistically, yes.  See:  North Korea.  As for whether it has been specifically and purposefully omitted, there are references to that as well in some of the above linked posts...mostly that having religious conflict is boring and predictable.

[Desertman]

In my opinion the main difference is that in real life we live in a no-magic world. We have no other choice in terms of "finding a greater power to cling to like a crutch" when our lives are garbage and we can't hack it on our own. We have no choice but to look on high to the "heavens" for some mystical fantastical answer to it all.

That is where we get our comfort and our hope IRL, when we just don't have anywhere else to turn. (A lot of us anyways.)

In Zalanthas, you only need to look down the street to the nearest magic wielding templar of doom to find your "power greater than yourself that you can't explain that is there to protect you". You want to look a little further and you find a power so great that even those templars bend a knee to them and worship them unfailingly.

For a commoner, you have "Gods" among "Gods" to worship in your every day life in Zalanthas, just take your pick.

[ShaLeah]

Morning Devotions negates this post. Heathen!

[Cutthroat]

The sorcerer-king cults of personality in either city can basically serve as a religion to a character. How "religious" characters are about the Highlord/Sun King can vary widely, but most people need to at least feign piety. It's also different between Allanak and Tuluk - in Allanak you have devotions and talking about what Tektolnes has done, and in Tuluk you have Muk Utep to talk about and praise. They can have different qualities so they can even be worshipped differently.

Some tribes and groups might worship things that come a bit closer to earlier RL religions. There's probably not going to be an equivalent to Abrahamic religions IG (equal both in belief structure and widespread-ness - like Nyr said, any sort of belief system that doesn't have the Tektolnes/Muk Utep seal of approval is probably going to need to be hidden well). That arguably makes the setting more unique, instead of necessarily lacking for something.

[Morrolan]

There's probably not going to be an equivalent to Abrahamic religions IG (equal both in belief structure and widespread-ness

Abrahamic religions require literacy among the priestly class. They also have an underlying idea that there is one universal truth for all places and times.

They are very unlikely to show up in the world of Zalanthas.

[Desertman]

Yeah, I thought I read somewhere that one of the main reasons that modern day religion is as deeply ingrained into our culture is due to the fact it came about when literacy was not common place. As I understood it, the "written word" was something that only the upper crest of society had access to create and as such among the common folks, starving, enslaved, and in general living a peon lifestyle, it had a very reverent appeal in their minds.

If someone so high up the chain of society took the time to write it down in that mystical scribbling it must hold a great amount of merit.

I had always kind of assumed that making literacy illegal was just one of the tools of the ruling castes in Armageddon to keep the peons stupid, and to keep them in awe of such a thing of power. The ability to read/write is an extremely powerful tool to any cult that wants to spread its word to the uninformed and uneducated masses.

Such is the way of real life history, such is the way of Zalanthan practice. 

[MeTekillot]

too bad they don't realize an educated populace is an extremely productive populace

[Qzzrbl]

too bad they don't realize an educated populace is an extremely productive populace

The aristocracy needs strong backs to further themselves.

Not strong, independant minds.

[MeTekillot]

You don't need to feed a strong back so much if it figures out how to work more efficiently.

[Desertman]

You don't need to feed a strong back so much if it figures out how to work more efficiently.

Back food = Whips.

[Qzzrbl]

So long as the important bellies are full, I don't think they care.

Besides, a noble/merchant house covers nearly every aspect of anything, from construction to banking, to large-scale wars. Even parties and good times.

All the education is in the right places to keep stuff running smoothly while keeping the common man under an oppressive thumb, for the most part.

Back food = Whips.

Hah!

[catchall]

Yeah, any abstract notion of "education" or "literacy" being universal goods because they increase "efficiency" strikes me as simply an ideology of modern capitalism where we basically worship money and economic growth.  I'm not even convinced it's entirely true.  Literacy is generally believed to have been like Zalanthas-level low in ancient Egypt.  But they still built the pyramids, the Sphinx, tombs full of dazzling artifacts, etc.

Even if it's true, and most Zalanthans would use literacy to increase their productive capacity (instead of just consuming tons of crappy pulp fiction, which is what people in the real world mostly did when literacy began to spread), how productive does the populace need to be?  Resources are scarce on Zalanthas. Why would the powers that be want Amos Commoner to become more efficient at extracting them?  The city-states have large free populations with a substantial mercantile class that isn't easily economically micromanaged and has considerable freedom of travel, meaning they can take their efficiently extracted resources elsewhere.  The city-states also aren't attempting to rapidly expand their boundaries, requiring some boom of educated architects.


Back on topic to the question of religion, it seems we're using a very modern conception of religion (up to and including a modern conception of ancient religions).  It's been quite common over history that monarchs are viewed as gods, or the representatives or manifestations of gods.  When the monarchs actually do possess overwhelming supernatural might, as on Zalanthas, it's no longer even necessary for them to be middlemen for some higher power.

[Delirium]

Yeah, any abstract notion of "education" or "literacy" being universal goods because they increase "efficiency" strikes me as simply an ideology of modern capitalism where we basically worship money and economic growth.  I'm not even convinced it's entirely true.  Literacy is generally believed to have been like Zalanthas-level low in ancient Egypt.  But they still built the pyramids, the Sphinx, tombs full of dazzling artifacts, etc.

I feel compelled to mention that this is because they had educated aristocracy and lots and lots of slaves..

[LauraMars]

I feel like I'd prefer morning devotions in Zalanthas to the painfully awkward morning devotions I was dragged into as a child.

[racurtne]

Yeah, any abstract notion of "education" or "literacy" being universal goods because they increase "efficiency" strikes me as simply an ideology of modern capitalism where we basically worship money and economic growth.  I'm not even convinced it's entirely true.  Literacy is generally believed to have been like Zalanthas-level low in ancient Egypt.  But they still built the pyramids, the Sphinx, tombs full of dazzling artifacts, etc.

I feel compelled to mention that this is because they had educated aristocracy and lots and lots of slaves..

I feel compelled to mention that scholars now believe the pyramids/etc were not built by slaves but rather by normal people as a form of civil service. It appears that they were compensated for their time working on the project (one way in which they were compensated was BEER), and they rotated people in and out of the work.

Edit: Hmm, seems this hypothesis was discarded amended by some and the new theories involve lots of skilled laborers rotating in and out. Still, the massive numbers of slaves hypothesis has been pretty well discredited in recent years.

http://harvardmagazine.com/2003/07/who-built-the-pyramids-html?page=0,4 For those interested.

On topic: Bow down before the dragon, heathens!

Edited again for Patuk's comment below, because farmers working on the pyramids seems to be ruled out for the most part. Chinese silk, however, was often produced by the daughters (almost exclusively, silk production was done by women) of small-medium sized landowning farmers.

[chrisdcoulombe]

While grasping an ancient alter the figure in the black moon patterned robe says in sirihish: All hail the glory of the black moon, bringer of the kryl.  The sorcerer kings betray you, it is the black moon that gives us our power and we shall rise up with greater power.

The figure in a black moon patterned robe says to you in sirihish as he reaches for a dulled obsidian blade:  We offer you as a sacrifice, but you will be blessed by the black moon.  You are not the first, but you are one of his children and shall be rewarded.  Go to him!

The figure in black moon patterned robe utters an incantation

Your vision goes black 

[Patuk]

Yeah, any abstract notion of "education" or "literacy" being universal goods because they increase "efficiency" strikes me as simply an ideology of modern capitalism where we basically worship money and economic growth.  I'm not even convinced it's entirely true.  Literacy is generally believed to have been like Zalanthas-level low in ancient Egypt.  But they still built the pyramids, the Sphinx, tombs full of dazzling artifacts, etc.

I feel compelled to mention that this is because they had educated aristocracy and lots and lots of slaves..

I feel compelled to mention that scholars now believe the pyramids/etc were not built by slaves but rather by normal people as a form of civil service. It appears that they were compensated for their time working on the project (one way in which they were compensated was BEER), and they rotated people in and out of the work.

Edit: Hmm, seems this hypothesis was discarded amended by some and the new theories involve lots of skilled laborers rotating in and out. Still, the massive numbers of slaves hypothesis has been pretty well discredited in recent years.

http://harvardmagazine.com/2003/07/who-built-the-pyramids-html?page=0,4 For those interested.

On topic: Bow down before the dragon, heathens!

Farmers in lots of places labored(and labor) on non-food related things. The chinese made silk, the egyptians made pyramids.

[Barzalene]

There's probably not going to be an equivalent to Abrahamic religions IG (equal both in belief structure and widespread-ness

Abrahamic religions require literacy among the priestly class. They also have an underlying idea that there is one universal truth for all places and times.

They are very unlikely to show up in the world of Zalanthas.

Actually for years Jewish law was maintained by oral tradition, I believe.

[ShaLeah]

I feel like I'd prefer morning devotions in Zalanthas to the painfully awkward morning devotions I was dragged into as a child.

As is most religion.

[Incognito]

The reason why the concept of the Sorcerer-Kings being the ONLY principal forms of religion/worship on Zalanthas isn't potable, stems from the fact that they are mortal. There is knowledge of when they were born/took over power/overthrew their predecessor(s).

It stands to reason that in times before the current Sorcerer-Kings rose to power, there must/should have been other beliefs (beings/deities/gods etc), which should not have been eradicated so thoroughly from the entire population's history.

[BadSkeelz]

We know the Sorceror-Kings are mortal, cause we have access to the history page. I'd say the point's debatable for a society that's 99% illiterate with a rather low life expectancy. I don't think Zalanthans have a very good grasp on history.

It stands to reason that in times before the current Sorcerer-Kings rose to power, there must/should have been other beliefs (beings/deities/gods etc), which should not have been eradicated so thoroughly from the entire population's history.

Ever met a practicing Mithradite? Or a Tengri? Religions get wiped out all the time, historically speaking.

[Nyr]

The reason why the concept of the Sorcerer-Kings being the ONLY principal forms of religion/worship on Zalanthas isn't potable, stems from the fact that they are mortal.  There is knowledge of when they were born/took over power/overthrew their predecessor(s).

To your first point, are they mortal?  That's a good question.  Muk Utep is over a thousand years old and so is Tektolnes.  While some definitions of "immortal" might mean "perpetual, constant, or otherwise everlasting," I don't really think that anyone is claiming that Tektolnes or Muk Utep always existed (though the templarate may indeed choose to do that and if they do, well, what are you gonna do, correct them?).  However, most definitions of mortal lead one to believe that something that is mortal is "subject to death" or "having a transitory life."   The evidence tends towards both sorcerer-kings having powers that defy the imagination (and mortality).  They have lived far beyond the span of all other known sentient life on Zalanthas.  Whether or not they are actually immortal (cannot die) or effectively immortal (have not died yet) doesn't matter.  The end result is the same for the average denizen of the Known World.  They are beacons of power that cannot be outshone by much else.

It stands to reason that in times before the current Sorcerer-Kings rose to power, there must/should have been other beliefs (beings/deities/gods etc), which should not have been eradicated so thoroughly from the entire population's history.

There may have been other beliefs (beings, deities, gods, etc) , and due to the evidence presented, they have been eradicated quite thoroughly from the majority of the population's history.

[Desertman]

The reason why the concept of the Sorcerer-Kings being the ONLY principal forms of religion/worship on Zalanthas isn't potable, stems from the fact that they are mortal. There is knowledge of when they were born/took over power/overthrew their predecessor(s).

I give you: (And it is common knowledge this guy was captured, tortured, and died. All within the timeframe of a normal human lifespan. Still, god status.)

[ShaLeah]

The reason why the concept of the Sorcerer-Kings being the ONLY principal forms of religion/worship on Zalanthas isn't potable, stems from the fact that they are mortal. There is knowledge of when they were born/took over power/overthrew their predecessor(s).

I give you:

Lol Dman you rock.

[MeTekillot]

yeah but he reportedly rose from the dead and brought a bunch of other people back from the dead and exploded snakes and healed the sick by touching them

[Desertman]

yeah but he reportedly rose from the dead and brought a bunch of other people back from the dead and exploded snakes and healed the sick by touching them

Rose from the dead is admitting he died to begin with. One of those was witnessed by an entire city. One was supposedly witnessed by three people.

Tektolnes, never died.

Did he turn into a mother-f'n dragon and destroy dwarven hordes? Did he bury an entire city with a wave of his hand?

Meanwhile, Jesus is all, "Hey bros, I'll turn this water into wine for you."

Tektolnes: "Yo', have these magical sorcerer powers to rule over my followers my templarate bruthas. Enjoy the fireballs. Fo'realz."

I'm fairly certainly Tektolnes could take Jesus in a fight.

I'm willing to present my case should this thread turn in that direction.

[Nyr]

Yeah, I mean...I wasn't going to go there, I figured someone else would bring it up.

[Desertman]

Yeah, I mean...I wasn't going to go there, I figured someone else would bring it up.

I got yo' back.

[musashi]

Yeah, any abstract notion of "education" or "literacy" being universal goods because they increase "efficiency" strikes me as simply an ideology of modern capitalism where we basically worship money and economic growth.  I'm not even convinced it's entirely true.  Literacy is generally believed to have been like Zalanthas-level low in ancient Egypt.  But they still built the pyramids, the Sphinx, tombs full of dazzling artifacts, etc.

I feel compelled to mention that this is because they had educated aristocracy and lots and lots of slaves..

I feel compelled to mention that scholars now believe the pyramids/etc were not built by slaves but rather by normal people as a form of civil service. It appears that they were compensated for their time working on the project (one way in which they were compensated was BEER), and they rotated people in and out of the work.

Edit: Hmm, seems this hypothesis was discarded amended by some and the new theories involve lots of skilled laborers rotating in and out. Still, the massive numbers of slaves hypothesis has been pretty well discredited in recent years.

http://harvardmagazine.com/2003/07/who-built-the-pyramids-html?page=0,4 For those interested.

On topic: Bow down before the dragon, heathens!

Edited again for Patuk's comment below, because farmers working on the pyramids seems to be ruled out for the most part. Chinese silk, however, was often produced by the daughters (almost exclusively, silk production was done by women) of small-medium sized landowning farmers.

Thanks for typing that before I had to  

Also re: Dman: Yez, and Jesus isn't the only example of mortal men dying and being defied. It was all the rage during the time Christianity was still a cult and its dogma being solidified. Funny enough though, earliest works on Jesus have him as a God like figure first, and his entire life/death/rebirth all happening "in the heavens" rather than on earth. But he, like many other competing personal salvation cults of the time, became a mortal in subsequent retellings.

Just ... kinda interesting that in order for him to go pro, he had to go from god to mortal, rather than from mortal to god.

Maybe that's why Muk Utep has been making so many appearances in the past King's Age. Needs to seem human first before he goes super sayian.

[Desertman]

DBZ reference in a religious post ftw.  

Edited to Add: The concept was just too funny for me. I had to look it up. It exists.

[Suhuy]

The lack of sexism on Zalanthas was built around the desire to make the game more accommodating to players of every gender, orientation, etc. I've always been under the assumption that the lack of religion in game was built around a similar desire, to free players from the real world religious persecutions they may be suffering. This game is a form of escapism and incorporating large-scale religions, in my opinion, doesn't really help one escape.

[James de Monet]

*JDM eyes this thread warily.*

[musashi]

You notice: musashi begins approaching the thread quietly ...

[Morrolan]

Morrolan eyes the thread morbidly.

[musashi]

The lack of sexism on Zalanthas was built around the desire to make the game more accommodating to players of every gender, orientation, etc. I've always been under the assumption that the lack of religion in game was built around a similar desire, to free players from the real world religious persecutions they may be suffering. This game is a form of escapism and incorporating large-scale religions, in my opinion, doesn't really help one escape.

Well, religious beliefs do exist in game among groups that don't happen to live under the thralldom of a god king (and I find the fantasy setting all the richer for it btw), and I don't personally think that having religions in game would drive away religious people the way that having sexism in game would drive away women ... ...

I always figured the lack of open religion in the city states was easily paralleled with the lack of open religion in Stalin's Russia. When the brutal oppressive government says worship the state or die ... ... *shrug*

[Barzalene]

The lack of sexism on Zalanthas was built around the desire to make the game more accommodating to players of every gender, orientation, etc. I've always been under the assumption that the lack of religion in game was built around a similar desire, to free players from the real world religious persecutions they may be suffering. This game is a form of escapism and incorporating large-scale religions, in my opinion, doesn't really help one escape.

Well, religious beliefs do exist in game among groups that don't happen to live under the thralldom of a god king (and I find the fantasy setting all the richer for it btw), and I don't personally think that having religions in game would drive away religious people the way that having sexism in game would drive away women ... ...

I always figured the lack of open religion in the city states was easily paralleled with the lack of open religion in Stalin's Russia. When the brutal oppressive government says worship the state or die ... ... *shrug*

I also thought it was in many ways an ooc decision to keep people from having to reconcile their religious beliefs with acting out contradictory beliefs.

[Morrolan]

I also thought it was in many ways an ooc decision to keep people from having to reconcile their religious beliefs with acting out contradictory beliefs.

And even moreso (and we see this in this thread) the challenge of contradicting Western conceptions of religion.

What if a religion isn't centered around belief, but ritual and obligation?
What is a deity isn't transcendent, but immanent?
What if a religion doesn't define a "one true way" but is coterminous with an ethnic identity?

These are all tough nuts to swallow for most Westerners (and probably most of the players). And even harder to explain to newbs.

"Yes, it's a religion. No, it doesn't give an ethical list of things not to do. Instead it tells you when to make appropriate sacrifices to maintain a relationship with your dead ancestors..."

"Oh, you mean it's evil pagan witchcraft?"

"No, that's something else..."
OOC That requires karma.

OOC Karma...?

OOC NEVERMIND. NO RELIGION.

[hatchets]

I am of 'western faith' which makes me laugh when I hear that said.

Religion in roleplay is almost certain to be different then religion in the real world. First and foremost, people throw fireballs (heh heh heh, had to throw that in there) who's to say there is not a god of fire? Templars recieve powers from their god-king, which while may not be completely common knowledge to the common citizen, what is knowledge is that they are the law and above what ever law they set. In the real world neither of these things really happen (well we try to pretend it doesn't happen on the law part atleast).

But again, any religion aside from the prominent god-king of the region would be stomped out. Even if a gicker took the time to try and form a religious cult to their element, they couldn't very well walk around talking about it, they would be found out, so growing their cult would prove a difficult task (although a fun one I imagine). Aswell, as someone commented about a possible religion to the moons and suns, There are sects named after each one, perhaps you show more devout loyalty to one of these sects.

Truthfully, I believe Arm is full of religion, and religious possibility and askewment. Go out, under the red sun, and in the name of the Jihaen, kill a southerner.

I think what people are looking for is guidance into doing such things. Rules of worship, going to church on sunday, killing three tregils on the third day of the second month. And other such things. Make them up as you go, make up an arguement as to why, and maybe others will follow out of superstition. You don't want to do such things? Go to Morning Devotion for your god king, and point fingers and speak of the blasphemous ways of others that stay sitting in the tavern at such times, who knows, maybe a templar will join in for kicks.

[Morrolan]

I am of 'western faith' which makes me laugh when I hear that said.

Maybe this is why, in the 80s and early 90s, RPGs were linked (in the minds of some wingnuts) with Satanism, etc.

RPGs really do help people with understanding other peoples, cultures, and ways of life. Which, to some people's minds, makes them Eeeee-vil.

[Lizzie]

I assumed religion didn't exist as an organized thing in Armageddon because the concept just didn't fit the theme.  Real-world religious persecution issues didn't even occur to me (and I'm a member of a religion that has been persecuted for millenia).

[Desertman]

The Templars are specifically referred to as soldier-priests in the documentation.

A soldier, and a priest.

Priest....

Also, we have morning devotions in game. You show up in the morning to sit before an idol and a priest while they preach.

If those things don't point out that there is religion, I'm not sure what else could.

As a side note, if the things that happen in Armageddon generally don't go against someone's RL religion, I would be interested to know what sort of actual RL religion they are part of. I might join up.

[Vwest]

I'm saying it plain now, if a PC named Geesus walks into the Gaj and starts handing out wine, I'm gonna kill him on the fucking spot, IC or not.

[Delirium]

New vivaduan concept...

I'M JOKING DON'T HURT ME.

[musashi]

Um ... guys ... if playing an RPG with religion in it is challenging to your faith ... you're probably not gonna play an RPG at all, period. Because it's the devil. Along with Pokemon, Harry Potter, and the Telletubbies.

But, hey test it out.

If you want to start an underground religious cult worshiping the black moon in Allanak or Tuluk, go for it. Roll up a concept and run it by the staff. If they let you ... and you're just subsequently crushed by the templarate for it IC, well then that's why the city states have no official religions beyond quasi worship of the kings.

If staff writes back and says: No as a rule we don't allow religion of any kind inside the city states ... then it's probably a policy to appease the evangelicals. 

[Morrolan]

As a side note, if the things that happen in Armageddon generally don't go against someone's RL religion, I would be interested to know what sort of actual RL religion they are part of. I might join up.

Asatru. Maybe. [Comes in non-racist and racist varieties.]

[Desertman]

As a side note, if the things that happen in Armageddon generally don't go against someone's RL religion, I would be interested to know what sort of actual RL religion they are part of. I might join up.

Asatru. Maybe. [Comes in non-racist and racist varieties.]

Just when I thought it couldn't get any more screwy.

Holy crap.

[hatchets]

I am of 'western faith' which makes me laugh when I hear that said.

Maybe this is why, in the 80s and early 90s, RPGs were linked (in the minds of some wingnuts) with Satanism, etc.

RPGs really do help people with understanding other peoples, cultures, and ways of life. Which, to some people's minds, makes them Eeeee-vil.

I will not delve into deep arguments of faith, as I don't particularly believe this thread is really for that nor does anyone win in arguments of faith if both sides are truly faithful. But I will say, in the future, it would be more accurate to reference those of the 80's and 90's era rather then the entire general 'western faith' and leave out name calling as it attempts to create the same persecution you hold against them which makes your argument at best hypocritical, and more so lowers the standard of any such  debate to childishness.

[Suhuy]

I was trying to find an old GDB post by Nessalin but, sadly, came up empty handed. The closest I could dig up was: http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Magicker%20FAQ. Specifically, the 'Why aren't magickers called clerics or druids?' part.

A literalist would argue that it specifically states there are no religions on Zalanthas, and say case closed, but I won't go that far because it's expressly referring to the city-states. Yes, various human and elven tribes have religious aspects, but I think that's based more on a belief in a spirit world/spirits and less on "this is the god of sandstorms and we pray to him for blah blah blah. And this guy over here is the god of music" etc. Their beliefs certainly don't fall under the category of organized religion.

The GDB post I was searching for argued that when you implement gods and goddesses as featured in stock fantasy genre (Dragonlance, etc.), you ultimately wind up with characters performing their actions for their deity and not because that's what their character would necessarily do. He sited the ancient Neanderthals and their lack of religion to demonstrate that societies can capably function without gods and goddesses. The impression I remember getting from the post was less an argument against religion because there are sorcerer-kings who would try to put a stop to it and more of a "we simply don't want religion to feature in our game" mentality. Not that anyone has to agree with me, but I've always favored this viewpoint because I feel it sets Arm apart from the other fantasy settings out there and gives it a more mature edge.

[James de Monet]

I am of 'western faith' which makes me laugh when I hear that said.

Maybe this is why, in the 80s and early 90s, RPGs were linked (in the minds of some wingnuts) with Satanism, etc.

RPGs really do help people with understanding other peoples, cultures, and ways of life. Which, to some people's minds, makes them Eeeee-vil.

Actually, I think this had more to do with the Gary Gygax choices for reference material in the artwork and thematic styling of the first editions of D&D. They've toned it down a lot since then, to my understanding. Also, you know how some people get really into their campaigns, and get dressed up and stuff? Before RPGs, there was really on one kind of people who hung about in dark rooms wearing robes and talking about 'demons' and 'spells'. I think it was an honest mistake...

[musashi]

Also keep in mind that worshipping a god of sandstorm, a god of the harvest, a god of this and that etc ... Was the mainstay of religious beliefs throughout Judea before the onset of "personal salvation cults" like Christianity. The idea of a god that you pray to for personal salvation as opposed to the idea of a god you pray to specifically for effect X Y and Z ... fairly new concept as far as religion goes.

So I think that to suggest as Suhuy did that religious beliefs based around gods of this and gods of that don't fall under the category of organized religion ... Not really. It's not monotheism to be sure, but its organized religion for certain.

[Morrolan]

I am of 'western faith' which makes me laugh when I hear that said.

Maybe this is why, in the 80s and early 90s, RPGs were linked (in the minds of some wingnuts) with Satanism, etc.

RPGs really do help people with understanding other peoples, cultures, and ways of life. Which, to some people's minds, makes them Eeeee-vil.

I will not delve into deep arguments of faith, as I don't particularly believe this thread is really for that nor does anyone win in arguments of faith if both sides are truly faithful. But I will say, in the future, it would be more accurate to reference those of the 80's and 90's era rather then the entire general 'western faith' and leave out name calling as it attempts to create the same persecution you hold against them which makes your argument at best hypocritical, and more so lowers the standard of any such  debate to childishness.

Hatchets,

My original post (back on the last page) was in two parts. The first is that most Westerners have a hard time getting their minds around immanent religion.

The second was that some newbs might not deal well with the RPG-religion context at all.

I'm sorry if it caused any confusion that they ran together.

[Morrolan]

I will not delve into deep arguments of faith, as I don't particularly believe this thread is really for that nor does anyone win in arguments of faith if both sides are truly faithful. But I will say, in the future, it would be more accurate to reference those of the 80's and 90's era rather then the entire general 'western faith' and leave out name calling as it attempts to create the same persecution you hold against them which makes your argument at best hypocritical, and more so lowers the standard of any such  debate to childishness.

Wow, Hatchets, you read a lot into that that I didn't say and don't feel.

If any readers would like to see my working definition of an archetypal Western faith (and this was written for a general audience by a scholar of religion), please reference George Williams's Religions of the World: Shinto for a discussion of Western definitions of religion, and how this has influenced scholarly work on immanent religions in general and Shinto in specific.

As I said, it's for a general audience. I found it at my local library.

EDIT to add:
Off the top of my head, Williams's argument is that Shinto differs from the common Western religion in ten specific ways. Here are eight of them:

• Shinto is orthopractic and Western religion is orthodoctic
• Shinto is ethnic and Western religion is transmissible between groups
• Shinto focuses on cyclical time and Western religion's cosmology uses linear time
• Shinto focuses on life in this world and Western religion is concerned with the afterlife
• Shinto is experiential and Western religion is unified by beliefs, assumptions, and principles
• Shinto is associated with the history of a specific country and Western religion is transnational
• Shinto does not have one defining text and Western religion does
• Shinto has deities/spirits associated with the landscape and Western religion is "world-rejecting"

Those are the ones that come to mind off the top of my head. The Shinto part isn't so important for this discussion, but his working model of Western religion is. Anyway, enough of this derail. Let's take it to PMs if you have any interest in discussing this.

[/derail]

Throughout history (probably since the first cities arose out of the hierarchy generated by food surpluses caused by agriculture -- so, as old as civilization) religion has been used to justify things that actually have a political basis. Adding in "religion" beyond tribal and civil religions is an invitation to import modern conceptions of religion which are a far cry from pre- or non-Neoplatonic ones.

[Desertman]

Back on track, Templars, specifically referred to as priests in the documentation.

Priests.

That should really end the debate on if there is religion in Zalanthas.

[James de Monet]

Back on track, Templars, specifically referred to as priests in the documentation.

Priests.

That should really end the debate on if there is religion in Zalanthas.

I agree that this is fairly telling, especially because the docs on Elementalist Culture express:

A thought to keep in mind when working with elementalists is that they're not priests. Or philosophers. Or druids. Or seers. Or Wizards. They do not get their powers by prayer, worship, communing with a greater power, or studying ancient texts.

[Potaje]

Lets role up a bunch of bardic priests in Red storm



Blue oysterPearl cult

[Lizzie]

Back on track, Templars, specifically referred to as priests in the documentation.

Priests.

That should really end the debate on if there is religion in Zalanthas.

This is sort of a red herring argument. You're assuming that by "priests" the staff who created the game, intended for "priests" to be comparable to christian priests. This is entirely possible, but not necessarily the case. Priests of Ancient Judea, most of whom were either Sadducees or Pharisees, acted more as caretakers of the temple - which was considered not only a religious center, but also the community center. They were also the politicians and lawyers of their time, and their primary religious function was to act as the administrators of sacrifices - and -not- to "lead a congregation in prayer." The religious leaders were the rabbis and cantors (the Jewish version of a bard), not the priests. Priests were typically given their duties by virtue of their birth - they inherited the task from familial lines. It had nothing to do with personal calling, or any personal sense of affinity with their god.

I am more inclined to see the game's templars in this light, which was religious only as a very small part of their duties - and administrative as the bulk of their function in society.

[Riya OniSenshi]

That should really end the debate on if there is religion in Zalanthas.

Nyr's posts on the first page should have ended it, really...
I don't even see what point, if any, most of you are trying to make anymore, and what it has to do with anything.

[Morrolan]

it's hard to imagine that any religious debate would end because of the word "should."

Anyone 'can' call themselves a "priest" in arm. However, having miraculous powers requires karma, and comes with other restrictions, like staff overview and veto.

You probably can even try to start a religion or a religious order. 'Try' being the operative word.

[Desertman]

it's hard to imagine that any religious debate would end because of the word "should."

Anyone 'can' call themselves a "priest" in arm. However, having miraculous powers requires karma, and comes with other restrictions, like staff overview and veto.

You probably can even try to start a religion or a religious order. 'Try' being the operative word.

I once played a half-elf ranger who fully believed he had his own diety/goddess of the wilderness.

A southern templar once made the soldiers stand back and watch while I stood on a table and preached the word of my goddess to the tavern.

I thought it was because I was so awesome and stuff.

I now realize I was such a complete newb-tard that the templar was just getting a good laugh. I blatantly was not going to get any followers with my stupidity, and if anything, I was a shining example to the rest of the citizens of Allanak to keep their faith with the Highlord.

*So Much Shame*

[Wastrel]

that is pretty hilarious

[Omn]

What a cool 'yes'-gamer move on that Templar's part.

[IssacF]

it's hard to imagine that any religious debate would end because of the word "should."

Anyone 'can' call themselves a "priest" in arm. However, having miraculous powers requires karma, and comes with other restrictions, like staff overview and veto.

You probably can even try to start a religion or a religious order. 'Try' being the operative word.

I once played a half-elf ranger who fully believed he had his own diety/goddess of the wilderness.

A southern templar once made the soldiers stand back and watch while I stood on a table and preached the word of my goddess to the tavern.

I thought it was because I was so awesome and stuff.

I now realize I was such a complete newb-tard that the templar was just getting a good laugh. I blatantly was not going to get any followers with my stupidity, and if anything, I was a shining example to the rest of the citizens of Allanak to keep their faith with the Highlord.

*So Much Shame*

This made me laugh so hard! That Templar knew exactly what he/she was doing.

At any rate. I don't know if there is or not an exact religion. Most of my characters are human and usually very loyal and devoted to the Highlord, each for their own reasons. After spending some quality time with Southern Templars it seemed that when they used their powers they were elevating a prayer to the Highlord. *Shrug* In my opinion South deifies the Highlord while treating the North Sunking as false, charlatan, fake... I can imagine North is the opposite way. Since I'm always Nak-born, I could care less what the others believe. Outside of the Highlord, no one else deserves worship.

[Chettaman]

I believe there is spirituality.
I don't believe many people roleplay these things.

I think it would be super-cool if at least tribals came up with some cool ones.

[Is Friday]

I believe there is spirituality.
I don't believe many people roleplay these things.

I think it would be super-cool if at least tribals came up with some cool ones.

It's out there in documentation already.

[Pale Horse]

I believe there is spirituality.
I don't believe many people roleplay these things.

I think it would be super-cool if at least tribals came up with some cool ones.

It's out there in documentation already.

And this brings up a difference between the "religions" or beliefs of the tribes and cities.  The sets of beliefs in the cities are tied to location, God-King and somewhat to birth (location).  You could move away and try your hardest to fit into your new location and worship the God-king of the city you live in..and could get away with it.  I see the beliefs of the tribes as tied to blood above all else.  You are either of their tribe or not.  If not, you have no hope of truly fitting in.

[Case]

Of course there's religion. The cities have religion and tribes often have religion. Religion is a practice and core set of beliefs regarding spirituality. Religion does not necessitate a god exists or that a god is even revered.

Zalanthas has no supernatural Gods. Cool. It's an atheist world. It does, however, have vastly powerful mortals who call themselves Gods. They are doing nothing supernatural, as magick and psionics are both natural. If people believe they are Gods, that they are beyond all mortal trappings and occupy a supernatural and spiritual place in the universe, then that is religion. Whether or not they do is irrelevant.

[Nehoc]

Quite simply... Muk Utep be praised, all good is possible through His Radiance.

I like to let my jewish heritage inspire my Tuluki devotion some, I dont think it's far-fetched or unzalanthan either.  I also like to invisualize outdoors folk as viewing Muk Utep and the sun as synonymous, His Light allows the scrub to bloom, and therefore, we all sup on Muk Utep's radiance every day, and His Light permeates us all.  His Harmony literally influences the lives of Tuluki citizens on a magical level, blessing them with luck, good fortune, and prosperity.  Tuluk is a place of blessings by which others will bless themselves through bowing to Jihae and Lirathu (the faithful orders).

Obviously not every Tuluki feels this way, but some might?  I do anyways.

I think this goes back to Nyr's explanations, some people have personal beliefs (some contradicting common beliefs, like not worshipping the sun and moons, in favor of worshipping them because they have meaning to you, like light)

And I like to see the devotion to Muk Utep as part of that aggressive city dweller aspect of fiercely herding around the symbol of your government, law, lifestyle, sanity, city.  I'd also like to underscore that it is very possible, pointing back to ancient middle eastern history, you see religion often taking over a city completely with priest-kings, or religion being used as a tool of the state to the point where there isn't much spiritual growth involved, just offer sacrafice to our gods in our city, not their gods in their city.  Many look at ancient religious scriptures and in their opinion it's riddled with propaganda.

So yeah, I think religion's biggest role in Tuluk is a nationalistic tool with the spiritualism intended to be minimalized, just remember only the Faithful can guide you to Muk Utep's light