Lack of religion

[Penumbra]

Hey all.
I was just thinking, there's not really much religion in Armageddon.
It's actually quite surprising, for I think some sort of gods or something would really add a lot more into the game. Also, I find that people don't really talk about the Highlord much, who, I think, is the closest thing to a God there is.
Do you think it would be okay for some characters to worship certain things, for instance, some type of animal, or something like that?

PS Sorry, my post is a little fragmented and wierd, I haven't been playing for awhile, I'm just getting back into the game after a few-month break.

[Tamarin]

City-State: god = sorceror king.

Tribals: they have various beliefs and things that they worship already.

Kurac: spice?

[Larrath]

There are two reasons, in my eyes, why there is practically no religion in game.

First of all, there is the OOC atmosphere of the game.  Zalanthas is a desolate, hopeless, godforsaken place.  The lack of religion and afterlife and respect for the dead just makes it that much more terrible.

Second, there are the IC things - Tektolnes and Muk Utep, who rule the two largest humanoid population centers, only want themselves to be worshipped.  And they're both humans as far as anyone knows (according to Help Race_Human), so they're not exactly divine entities.  Just real powerful dudes.

With this said, some characters are religious in game.  Some worship their Sorcerer-Kings, while other choose to worship Lirathu (the 'good' moon) or Jihae (the 'bad' moon).  Others might worship an element, or a sort of animal or plant.  Tribals also tend to have their own belief.


However, note that in the cities, nobody would ever admit to worship anyone other than the Sorcerer-King, or to not worship them, because this makes the templars sad.  And then they cry.  And nobody likes a sobbing templar because it's just such a sorry sight.  You're breaking their hearts, man, can't you see it!  You damn evil bastard!

[Anonymous]

The kings of their respective city states wish to be viewed as gods, if they arn't (do you really know they are not?) and will squash any attempt at religion. But with the type of awe inspiring miraculousness they can and do preform, and the grand scale and nature of their underlings, its really only the brain of the player that makes their characters act unrealistically. Too few people treat them as gods, because the player cannot properly place the character in the type of situations, because in real life its hard for alot to "believe".

Well pretend that God, the one from the bible, was constantly doing things in your everday life, and prophets and spreaders of his word were all around you, on the streets, inspiring belief through the constant display of miracles in the form of even the everyday magick water-creating fountain, etc. His golden palace, something imcomprehensible in both size, and how it possibly exists looms over your everyday.

Anyways, there is religion, if by religion you mean the most common definition: Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. Most people in either citystate worship through either fear or love, their sorcerer king, because its because of either his mercy or vindictiveness that your allowed to exist, because any moment he chooses otherwise his faithful minions (Templars) could end your life through the imposing of what is obviously his will.

There is a bit more... ?belief? I guess in the north, where at least symbolism and idolatry is a bit more rampant. Even the main-tavern is a tribute to their god. But overall the problem is that religion as a whole is not accurately portrayed by the existing playerbase, so the overall retention rate is slim and it makes it look like there is none.

A nice solution would be for influential PCs to include some more devoutness in their daily routine. I remember a time when (a) certain clan(s) required their PCs to go to morning devotions (when it was a coded feature), and that was a nice start.

[Anonymous]

Also, an appurtenance to my above statement is common inability to seperate real-life impressions/beliefs of what constitutes a god to in-game terms. I dont think the term god would ever even be used or considered, since there is no background for the belief or existence of gods. Supreme being would perhaps be a better moniker.

And in Zalanthas, a land pretty much governed by primal rules of strenth, and survival of the fittest, a supreme being would either command the respect/worship or fear/hate of the masses. Regardless of whether or not in our player minds what actions he's done constitute something 'godlike' in our real world. As far as your character is concerned, what the Highlord/Muk-Utep and their templars are doing and have done in the generally available 'knowledge' your PC would have, is by far the most miraculous, fearful, awe-inspiring and grandiose things ever, and they are likely the most powerful things you have ever seen or will ever see. Their presence is felt in someway in every day of your life, from witnessing some act of theirs to being reminded of their existence through the day to day run ins with templars that are common on most streets.

Yet some players can go their whole characters life without any passive or overt regard to either templars or their supreme beings.

And the help race_human thing is a bit misleading. Just because someone may or may not appear human, would not trump the fact that the common belief would be that they have existed since at least the founding of either city-state, making them not only immortal, but the founders of what many consider to be their known world.

[RunningMountain]

I think a steel construction thats 40 feet high and just as long with a wind span of 100 feet is enough to make people believe the power of a certain king. However most players don't have the time nor inclination to worship something that never comes out of his hole.

[Anonymous]

Yet millions of people in the real world worship a God that never comes out of his hole... <_<

[mansa]

I seriously think that the lack of religion is a sad fact missing from the world of Zalanthas.  I'll post more about this, after I do some searching on the GDB about other posts about this.

[Penumbra]

Well, I, for one, think that my current char (my first after a loong break) will worship nature a bit... (shes a ranger, so shell spend a lot of time out of doors)
I.E. thanking nature for it's (somewhat limited) bounty, thanking the spirits of hunted animals, etc...
Not quite religion, more like spirituality.

[facehugger]

A big part of what makes Zalanthas great is that it is a barren wasteland. A godless realm with no great hope for a future, abandoned by whatever gods may have once ruled over it.

There are no good things to come. There are no mystical saviors that will save you. There is no heavenly afterlife where your "soul" (if such a thing exists) will be able to find eternal peace after a lifetime of suffering.

We are all alone. We live alone, and before too long, we will die alone.

So let's not be tryin' ta turn this into Every Other Mud out there, eh?

:lol:

[Dalmeth]

I seriously think that the lack of religion is a sad fact missing from the world of Zalanthas.  I'll post more about this, after I do some searching on the GDB about other posts about this.

You know, I remember someone on these boards saying once that Zalanthas was too harsh for religion.  I have to call that an ignorant assumption.  On Earth, every society with any serious pressure placed on it develops religion.  On Zalanthas, the gith's supposed ritualism is a reflection of this.

Someone mentioned religion as the belief in the supernatural.  The fact is, that's flat out wrong.  A religion is a collection of beliefs and traditions.  That's why we have no religion in Zalanthas : no one has made up the necessary beliefs and rituals.

[Anonymous]

A big part of what makes Zalanthas great is that it is a barren wasteland. A godless realm with no great hope for a future, abandoned by whatever gods may have once ruled over it.

There are no good things to come. There are no mystical saviors that will save you. There is no heavenly afterlife where your "soul" (if such a thing exists) will be able to find eternal peace after a lifetime of suffering.

We are all alone. We live alone, and before too long, we will die alone.

So let's not be tryin' ta turn this into Every Other Mud out there, eh?

:lol:

religion does not have to encompass a belief in soul, good, bad, saviors, saints, or sinners. Religion does not have to have gods. Its a belief in and reverence of a supernatural power as governor of all things.

[Anonymous]

The fact is, that's flat out wrong.  A religion is a collection of beliefs and traditions.

No that is called culture and heritage.

[Dalmeth]

No that is called culture and heritage.

No, religion and heritage are a part of culture

[RunningMountain]

This is about to get way out of hand..

[keithor]

Religion as defined by dictionary.com:

1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
3. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
4. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
5. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

So now that we have semantics out of the way, religion is cultural in nature because it (generally, excluding prophets) has to be passed down.  So my solution for the lack of religion?  Create a prophet and go out there and convert the heathens!

[Pantoufle]

There was a nicely written post made by Nessalin years ago on the old GDB regarding religion and why he, seemingly, wanted it out of ArmageddonMUD.  If memory serves, the key reason was that in stock fantasy games, the players' actions become controlled by their deity.  People do things for the sake of their god(dess), not because they want to.  If you look at Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms genre, the character's actions are bent to the will of whomever they worship.  Thankfully, this isn't so with ArmageddonMUD primarily because it is unique in that it lacks any largescale, sponsored religion.

Personally, I rather like the way things are in regards with religion.  Throughout history there have been and still are civilisations which lack religious beliefs.  I think it's fitting with the ArmageddonMUD theme to lack any major religions.

[Dracul]

Someone here posted that the 'religion' is underplayed by the PCs. Yes. The highlord is god. He is. Ahyup.

Anyways, I would love to see random dwarves or other power-minded individuals start up religions, only to be squashed like bugs.

Think, the king sending out the militia to stomp the most recent brand of cult.  That seems fine to me.

[Sir Diealot]

That.. could be really cool, Dracul.

[Pantoufle]

Just to add, I think one of the things which makes Arm so unique is it's lack of largescale religion.  Throw in a pantheon of gods and goddesses, equipped with temples and such, and you'll ruin the atmosphere of the game.  

Prostration before a Tektolnes idol is different from actual worship, inasmuch as its purpose is to invoke fear and obeisance, rather than actually preach some sort of gospel.  In this case, it's not religion, it's control.  Even the white-robed templars with their "Morning Devotions" are setup to invoke fear, not inspire theological perceptions of their god-king.

As for Tuluk, there doesn't seem to be much in the way or Muk Utep worship as far as I can tell, only reverence.  In either instance, the city-state rulers are respected, sometimes bowed down to, but (in my opinion) neither of the two are actual "religions", thankfully.

Over the years countless players have pleaded for religion beyond the scattered beliefs of tribals and such, asking for something larger, something akin to Zeus or Odin.  But I think, if you were to do this, in the end, you would have Forgotten Realms.  You would have Magic the Gathering.  You would have cheesy, crap stock fantasy fluff.  In essence, you would have: ©

Keep ArmageddonMUD original.  Keep it free of religion.

[Sir Diealot]

I agree, Pantoufle.

But that doesn't mean that the idea of a cult that forms, gains some following, and then is subsequently wiped out by a pissed-off Tektolnes wouldn't be a fun plot.

[Sweet_Savant]

Any form of religion in Zalanthas that I can see seems based around not reverence or the preaching of gospels, but mind control, plain and simple.  Control the heathen masses through fear and intimidation - that's what the dragon idol in Allanak is about; it's not just telling you, "Look who saved us from the stump-legged dwarves", but "Look who saved us from the stump-legged dwarves, and who you'll be pissing off if you do that, and remember what he can do." Neither Tektolnes nor Muk Utep put much stock in esoterics, I doubt; they've already amassed their power - the game is about consolidating and preserving it now. Consider the world's society, its instability - people are too caught up in daily mundane concerns like eating and watching out for that dagger in the back to worry about the *next* life. They just want to stay alive.

The respective powers of Zalanthas, Tek and Utep, are both too utilitarian and powerful to use their long arms to preach gospels of salvation and redemption if you turn over to their side. They are preaching damnation and flaming death if you refuse their edicts. Very Old Testament shit.

That is not to say that were any form of organized religion to crop up that it wouldn't be enormously popular - I mean, consider the social climate when religion first *did* arise. Death abroad, short life spans, harsh living conditions - people wanted something to look forward to after that last step in this life. (I'm not drawing a comparative analysis between Zalanthas and reality, just stating what I believe to be common knowledge.) Realistically, however, even if the idea appealed to someone, it would more than likely be blasted to cinders before it got even a modicum of respect.

Remember Stienal, after all. The so-called god-kings are big-time monopolists, and someone siphoning off their powerbase kind of irks them, it seems.

[WarriorPoet]

The whole Muk/Tek=God thing kind of bothers me. Not because it's a bad idea, but because they aren't really worshipped, or even noticed, enough. Sure, they have the Templarate to run around, harassing the population into submission, but... Bleh. "Do it or I'll fucking kill you." is pretty persuasive, but not so persuasive as "Do this, and the Highlord's gifts will be many. He cares for all his Children, especially those who prove useful... Do this not, and you will see his Wrath, and none may stand against it..."

I would like to see a few Templar take a more active role into whipping up religious fervor among the masses, especially in Allanak. Get a few witch burnings together. Round up all the assholes in the Barrel and have group devotion. That King -is- there, and he -is- the reason you aren't scratching a pitiful excuse for a living from the sand. Remind these ignorant commoners why Tek/Muk is the one reason they live such a good life. Your life blows, you say? Best you donate to the Highlord's coffers and rededicate yourself to him, lest it gets any worse. A few hundred sid should keep you from exploding suddenly. He does shit like that, you know... He IS God, after all.

I don't want a pantheon of set deities. That's cheesy. I would, however, like to see more visible evidence of the 'religions' of the City States.

-WP

[Sweet_Savant]

Sure, they have the Templarate to run around, harassing the population into submission, but... Bleh. "Do it or I'll fucking kill you." is pretty persuasive, but not so persuasive as "Do this, and the Highlord's gifts will be many. He cares for all his Children, especially those who prove useful... Do this not, and you will see his Wrath, and none may stand against it..." I would like to see a few Templar take a more active role into whipping up religious fervor among the masses, especially in Allanak. Get a few witch burnings together. Round up all the assholes in the Barrel and have group devotion. That King -is- there, and he -is- the reason you aren't scratching a pitiful excuse for a living from the sand. Remind these ignorant commoners why Tek/Muk is the one reason they live such a good life.

Oh, yes, yes, yes! A bit cliche, perhaps, but it rings true. In lieu of seeding a completely new religion - animism, spiritualism, whatever - a more true-to-theme idea would be to solidify what is already there. Show the populous, high and low alike, what the term "god-king" really means. This seems like a wonderful idea, and one which the players themselves can employ as opposed to relying on intervention from the staff.

[Penumbra]

I second WarriorPoet's ideas.
Religious Templars, please unite!