Stamina Regeration (or something else?)

[MowLiao]

I was stuck in a sticky situation some days back, fighting something which could barely hurt me while I was fairly low on stamina. I couldn't flee (due to the low stamina) to an area close-by where I could attempt to escape on my mount - so instead, I remained fighting for half an IRL hour (so 3 hours in game!), watching my health go down from full to 0.

While I know it was my fault for entering a fight with low stamina, it seems silly that my character was fighting for their life for three whole in-game hours, yet couldn't muster the energy to walk a few metres to their mount. I know there can be some sort of role-play excuse I can make up to explain this, but realistically, it doesn't seem right.

It would be nice if some stamina regeneration was implemented while not sitting/resting. I'd imagine it being inversely proportional to health - where someone well-fed, watered and not spraying blood would regenerate stamina far faster than someone who is thirsty, hungry, bleeding etc.

Any thoughts on this?

Edit:  Or, maybe there could be something else which could've meant my character's ultimate death happened faster. I'm sure I'm not the only one who faced something similar to this.

[Morgenes]

I guess my thought would be to have skill go down the more tired you are.  That would solve the problem quicker.

[X-D]

There are other threads on the subject, There are surely pros and cons...I am more for then against, though I think it should be VERY slow, So likely would not have helped your situation.

There also might be IC solutions as well...but you already know the answer to any farther questions on that subject.

Edit Though I do think that sitting on a mount that is not moving for say, more then 5 minutes should allow stam regen...after all, you are sitting and doing no work or movement.

And God no Morg...eesh.

[hatchets]

If anything, I would say start having swinging a weapon cost stamina, even if only one point. And finally at some point your character just passes out from exhaustion for fighting while so tired. And well, while sleeping you really won't have to wait so long then.


add on:

It kinda sucks to have it happen as I did have something similar myself previously. But I would say, it only stresses the harshness of the world. And is just something one must adjust to with practice and care.

[MowLiao]

Yeaah - I'm aware that the coders aren't going to make the game any easier to play in terms of survival! However the 30min frustrating wait just made me think, "Reaaaally? Is there seriously nothing I can do about this?" It just felt like a bit of a gap in the coding, that I was stuck like that.

[chrisdcoulombe]

Stamina management is part of arm.  Most of us have died to some sort of stamina failure. There are even skills that allow players to pursue that type of kill.    I agree it can be frustrating to have a ridiculous thing like that happen, but it is part of the game.

It would be kind of cool if you dropped below a certain health you would get an energy boost or something.  A last ditch effort where adrenaline kicks in and gives you a chance to escape.    Or maybe if that was a skill that improved as your character got better at it or got used to it or something.

As for now stamina management is a mini-game that you can not ignore.

I have faith your next character will find a better way to die.  

[catchall]

I find "too tired to move" kind of silly, myself.  Having trudged through some deserts and other wildnerness, and in my experience, if something forces you to stop, it's not simply being "too tired to move."  Humans are just really good at trudging along for a long, long time.  Personally, I'd like to see walking speed slow down a LOT at very low stamina values, even something like 5x or 10x delay at 0 stam (this is the kind of delay that can easily turn dangerous or deadly in the wastes, so no deharshness), and also you couldn't move if above a certain encumbrance at 0 stam.  I think running at 0 stam should cost HP. Call it adrenaline, or call it pushing beyond the healthy capacities of your body.  I once went out and ran/jogged for 15 miles on hilly terrain even though I'd never done more than 5.25 before. I never had a problem keeping moving, but doing that while out of practice took a physical toll on my body. I don't really like the idea of low HP giving an "adrenaline boost" to stam, because adrenaline will probably kick in before the point of getting grievously wounded if you're aware of the threat, and being grievously wounded should make you less mobile, not more.

[Lizzie]

I find "too tired to move" kind of silly, myself.  Having trudged through some deserts and other wildnerness, and in my experience, if something forces you to stop, it's not simply being "too tired to move."  Humans are just really good at trudging along for a long, long time.  Personally, I'd like to see walking speed slow down a LOT at very low stamina values, even something like 5x or 10x delay at 0 stam (this is the kind of delay that can easily turn dangerous or deadly in the wastes, so no deharshness), and also you couldn't move if above a certain encumbrance at 0 stam.  I think running at 0 stam should cost HP. Call it adrenaline, or call it pushing beyond the healthy capacities of your body.  I once went out and ran/jogged for 15 miles on hilly terrain even though I'd never done more than 5.25 before. I never had a problem keeping moving, but doing that while out of practice took a physical toll on my body. I don't really like the idea of low HP giving an "adrenaline boost" to stam, because adrenaline will probably kick in before the point of getting grievously wounded if you're aware of the threat, and being grievously wounded should make you less mobile, not more.

You're comparing pretty silly things that can't be compared.

1. It's Zalanthas, not Earth. Different solar system, different moons, different gravity pull.
2. Depending on whose roleplay you believe, a room is either a league in length, or a third of a league in length. Let's assume the latter - just to be generous. One room = 1/3 league, which is approximately 1 mile long.

Now let's assume you're -not- wearing a full set of plate armor but maybe you have 2 chitin items, 2 leather items, 1 item that's stone, and the rest all padded sandcloth or reinforced sandcloth and leather. Let's also assume you're carrying a couple duskhorn hides and a set of antlers in your pack, the weight of the pack itself, two waterskins, a sack full of food, cure tablets, two weapons, one bow, a quiver of arrows, a pile of coins, cure tablets, some sinew, an empty durrit sack, and a gurth shell. Basically - you're carrying around 80% of your own weight.

So - you and your thinner twin on your back, walking from Tuluk to Allanak. Have you ever counted how many rooms that is? How about from either city to Luir's? That's around 100 rooms. So around 100 miles.

When was the last time you walked 100 miles, carrying your thinner twin on your back, in the desert, stopping only for 5 RL minutes every 15 miles to rest?

Right. See? You can't compare real life movement, with game-coded movement. It just comes out silly.

The moral of the story - is you need to set your prompt when you first show up out of the hall of kings, and pay attention to it.

Also: if your mount is in the same "room" as you when you get into battle, you can still MOUNT it. And ride. Unless your mount is also too exhausted to move. The moral of -that- story would be to ALWAYS "REST" your mount whenever you get off of it. If it regains even 10 points of stamina, you will have enough to flee at least one room.

Another tip: the second you're done "flee"ing..reset your movement to "walk." You flee, and run, however far you think your character would run..and then stop running. Revert back to walking.

[catchall]

Cool, that's where the "can't move above a certain encumbrance" thing comes in.  Yeah, more gradable stam loss based on total encumbrance rather than the relatively rigid system that exists now would be nice.

[catchall]

I mean, seriously, how badassedly harsh would it be to see trails of gear left by stranded travellers that desperately left things behind to make it to safety before succumbing to the wastes.

[Refugee]

It's easy to not notice when your stamina is low (or other stats), so many of us set triggers to alert us in one way or another.  My client starts beeping when any of my numbers fall below levels I've chosen, so I can't miss it.

[chrisdcoulombe]

Yeah I agree Hp is maybe not the thing to trigger an adrenaline rush.  Maybe if something runs in and attacks you, however I agree that Stamina is just part of the game.  You manage it so as not to run out if something bad is happening.  I agree setting your movement back to walk after a flee is very important.   Put that stuff in a prompt.
(Help prompt) in game will tell you what you need to know if you don't already.

[Ender]

Maybe once you hit 0 stamina you could sacrifice HP to try to flee?  Basically representing pushing your body well past its normal limits in an attempt to survive.

[MeTekillot]

HP and stun?

[DustMight]

I guess my thought would be to have skill go down the more tired you are.  That would solve the problem quicker.

This I like.  Exhausted?  Don't try to craft the Argosy, don't try to fight that Braxat. Forced march your troops?  They'll pay the price on the battle-field while the better prepared enemy reaps the reward.

[Maso]

I like the idea of getting an 'adrenaline rush' in situations like this. Just have your stamina randomly jump back up for a brief period of time, using it costs way more than usual, so you'll only get a short sprint, and if you don't use it it'll drop back down by itself anyway. Triggered by low HP.

[Sephiroto]

I find it unrealistic that a PC is able to fight for hours in game but not run from a battle.  That's simply a code limitation, but a ridiculous one at that.  I've always thought that having skills drop proportionately to stamina values would be more realistic (and deadly).  Morgenes hints at that, I think.  There would be huge code repercussions for both PCs and NPCs, utterly changing the way combat is pursued.  Honestly, I'd be interested to see this implemented.

I also think it's somewhat unrealistic that you cannot restore any stamina at all while standing or riding, but you can somehow catch second wind while starving to death.  I think it would be nice to see stamina constantly recover at a slow rate, up to a moderate percentage, in a way similar to stun regeneration works, but with added complexities for stats, race, guild, as well as a cooldown after stamina-using skills before regeneration can begin.  This way you could always recover some stamina while not engaging in grueling activities, but you would still be tired if you do not sit or rest.  I don't think this would be game breaking, but it would maybe add a little dynamic of work, travel, and combat.

Ultimately, I think these things would be more realistic and possibly more fun.  However, I imagine they would take quite a bit of work to implement into the game.

EDIT:  I think a simple way to implement loss of abilities would be to apply hidden no-save values for certain skills after stamina gets too low.  This would be useful for non-combat skills too, like crafting, magic, or psionics.  When the body is tired, the mind doesn't work as well either.  Another alternative would simply be to multiply all skill rolls, including the ability to learn, by a stamina modifier after it dips below a given cutoff.

[Vwest]

If we're worried about characters able to fight for hours on end, but still too tired to stagger into the next 'room' to get on their mount, just enable very slow stamina regeneration when 'defending' against an attacker.

You are effectively giving up your hope of fighting back for a slim chance of escape.

It seems like a relatively easy to code solution and maintains the status of 'stamina' as it is currently, without turning it into something ridiculously complex and unnecessary.

[Lizzie]

Or, you can do the easiest, least complicated, least complex, quickest-to-implement fix:

Pay attention to your stamina, and rest -before- you are too tired to flee if something comes up to you and starts attacking.

[Vwest]

Or, you can do the easiest, least complicated, least complex, quickest-to-implement fix:

Pay attention to your stamina, and rest -before- you are too tired to flee if something comes up to you and starts attacking.

Except it doesn't address the issue in the OP, which is the absurdity of being able to fight to the death for an in-game day but not manage the energy to leg it to your beetle.

[Harmless]

Sorry you died that way.

You entered combat at low stam. You died. I think I did something similar to that once. Was it... PC number 3? 11? I don't remember.

In any case, that has never happened to me twice.

Welcome to Armageddon.

[RogueGunslinger]

Or, you can do the easiest, least complicated, least complex, quickest-to-implement fix:

Pay attention to your stamina, and rest -before- you are too tired to flee if something comes up to you and starts attacking.

Except it doesn't address the issue in the OP, which is the absurdity of being able to fight to the death for an in-game day but not manage the energy to leg it to your beetle.

You will find the code to be very absurd when you start comparing different elements of it to each other. Combat is tied only loosely to stamina via certain skills. It would be neat if there was more to it, I honestly wouldn't minds skills degrading with stamina entirely, but sometimes you just have to accept that not all code will be accordant in the most realistic fashion.

[musashi]

I'm totally cool with stamina levels affecting skills since that's super realistic, but just to be super duper realistic ... let's make 99 out of every 100 neck and head shots immediately fatal, and maybe like 88 out of every 100 of any other strike.

I mean, look ... the absurdity of how long that fight in the OP's post lasted isn't about how he was tired or not. It's about the fact that a hit point system of combat is just gonna be unrealistic, and you need to accept that  

If you're at 0 stamina and you know you're gonna die in the fight you're in ... and you're bored and want it to be over faster ... drop your weapons, then spam barrier till you black out.

[Fujikoma]

Some of these proposed "solutions" would make elves much harder to play (and, let's be honest, it doesn't need that), or at least, city elves. Seriously, you take a lot for granted when you can just ride a beast around. I think the system is fine the way it is. Musashi, imo, is right, just drop your weapons and type "rest" if it bothers you that much.

[Barzalene]

I like the idea of getting an 'adrenaline rush' in situations like this. Just have your stamina randomly jump back up for a brief period of time, using it costs way more than usual, so you'll only get a short sprint, and if you don't use it it'll drop back down by itself anyway. Triggered by low HP.

I could only get behind this if there were a real penalty. A reduction of stats for 48 actual hours or something. I think that sort of thing has to take a toll on a body. (Assuming we agreed this even requires some kind of fix.)

[Harmless]

Some of these proposed "solutions" would make elves much harder to play (and, let's be honest, it doesn't need that), or at least, city elves. Seriously, you take a lot for granted when you can just ride a beast around. I think the system is fine the way it is. Musashi, imo, is right, just drop your weapons and type "rest" if it bothers you that much.

+1

[Sephiroto]

Some of these proposed "solutions" would make elves much harder to play (and, let's be honest, it doesn't need that), or at least, city elves. Seriously, you take a lot for granted when you can just ride a beast around. I think the system is fine the way it is. Musashi, imo, is right, just drop your weapons and type "rest" if it bothers you that much.

+1

City Elves don't really belong in situations where this should be an issue.

[Fujikoma]

Some of these proposed "solutions" would make elves much harder to play (and, let's be honest, it doesn't need that), or at least, city elves. Seriously, you take a lot for granted when you can just ride a beast around. I think the system is fine the way it is. Musashi, imo, is right, just drop your weapons and type "rest" if it bothers you that much.

+1

City Elves don't really belong in situations where this should be an issue.

The differences between city elves and desert elves are only the result of their differing lifestyles--there is only one elven race.

There's nothing in the city elf or city elf roleplay file that backs up that argument. In fact, it makes mention of their nomadic tendencies, and I would think that means more than changing apartments. I've even heard there's a certain tribe that goes out hunting, though, it may have been a vicious rumor to discredit a particular tribe's city elven heritage.

Theoretically City Elves are the same race as Desert Elves, so it's not so bizarre, nothing they SHOULDN'T be able to do imo, just not something usually done culturally. It's not something that never happens, it's just suboptimal, I've seen it before, and heard about it. It's not like I'm asking for direction sense for city elves (which would be nice, considering it does get dark and sandy in cities)... But elves are not the whole issue here, the issue is stamina, and I've had my troubles with it before that have gotten my character killed (non-elf), and I'm saying I really don't see the need for a fix, that fix in particular. Maybe since elves are supposed to possess superhuman stamina, they could be immune to it.

(though, getting exhausted before sparring could make training more productive, if your abilities got nerfed by having low stamina)

But among the proposed fixes, I'd have to say the adrenalin rush sounds good to me, maybe give you a short term brawn and agility boost at the expense of wisdom as well, say, when you hit %25 hp, just pulling a number off the top of my head, however, if that were applied to npc beasties, there could be the real potential for some serious mayhem, might not be so good.

[Harmless]

Alright, I'd be okay with changes similar to what is being suggested by morg if riding consumed stamina as well.

[Dalmeth]

You should remember that any boost to stamina encourages people to run from combat, making combat less decisive as a whole.

Not that I'm against that.  I do think you should have to commit to a fight in order to die in one, but you should also have to commit in order win one.

[Barzalene]

But among the proposed fixes, I'd have to say the adrenalin rush sounds good to me, maybe give you a short term brawn and agility boost at the expense of wisdom as well, say, when you hit %25 hp, just pulling a number off the top of my head, however, if that were applied to npc beasties, there could be the real potential for some serious mayhem, might not be so good.

Wisdom seems really counter intuitive to me. I'd say either hp or stamina should take the hit. And not NPCS.

I'm not really advocating this concept of adrenaline rush, mind you. Just musing.

[BuNutzCola]

I wouldn't mind something akin to the final stages of dehydration being triggered by exceptionally low hp.

[Agent_137]

i feel like this ties into the other stamina thread complaining about how unrealistic it is that you can't just walk forever if the weather isn't horrible and you're unencumbered.

for realism and playability, i think stamina should just regen while standing/riding unless there are extenuating circumstances like heavy burden, extreme weather conditions, combat, etc. All of which would slow the regen but in most cases not stop it completely.

adding adrenaline rushes or limit breaks to armageddon seems a really weird way to handle something which should be simple.

[Dresan]

I really like Morgenes idea. Below 40% stamina (fine maybe 30%), your combat skills should start to decrease to the point where they are really bad at 0 endurance.


Then again i'm also a big fan of combat draining stamina abiet slowly 1 stamina every two or three rounds. I thinkthese ideas were being discussed back when stamina penalties were being implemented, something i was happy to see as well. Boy, do i remember all the raging done back then though.  

Just to add: To balance it off, we could get a slightly more generous stamina regen when sitting or resting out in the wilds, a slow stamina regen when riding and even slower stam regen when just standing.

[hatchets]

I indeed like the combination of all those things!