The Out-of-Wack Economy

[number13]

Can we talk about some of the stranger things a PC can do in game to get money?

As it stands, a PC can take a leisurely stroll out the gate, spend a little bit of time spamming forage in a safe location (or just picking up a couple of different respawning items), and then wander back with objects that sell for absurd amounts to NPC merchants.  The NPC then vends these items at prices that no PC would ever pay.  It's also possible to take trips between one location and another, buying certain items for insanely low and selling for insanely high.

It's fine and good to be able to make coins via these methods, but the discrepancy between effort and amount earned is incredibly bad for PC interaction. Nine times out of ten, it to the benefit of a player to sell to an NPC merchant, rather than haggling out more interesting deals with other players. Not to mention, these sorts of activities make it a billion times more profitable to be an independent. There's no way that, say, an Allanaki noble living on his stipend alone can outspend even the laziest PC forager/crafter.

The two questions are: Is it an actual problem, or are things fine the way they are?

If things are not good, how can they be fixed? How much work is it to fix them?  Let's say a Foo-Fruit can be picked up easily, sells for 200 coins without haggling, and vends for 300 coins (a price no PC would pay for a 'free' object).  Would an effort at fixing all the prices for these (many, many) objects be too large a task?

[James de Monet]

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,45280.0.html

[Fujikoma]

I don't know how other people play, but I've always preferred to sell the fruit of my grebbing to other players, it can give an excuse for interaction when there wouldn't otherwise be one. Also, vendors I've found tend to get filled up quick, only so much you can make before you're looking for a PC merchant to sell stuff to (even then, PC merchants, I've found, tend to pay a better price and highly appreciate large, bulk transactions)... Then again, I don't know where you're playing...

[Harmless]

Fix things out of whack one at a time, have templars and so on identify rich indies and tax them?

[Morgenes]

If you are aware of specific issues, report them via request.  Include specifics of where to get the items and how to make an insane profit on said items.

We will look at it and reply.

[X-D]

Meh, I am fine with that...gives my raiders somebody to raid.

No, I am not kidding...A good raider usually picks on unclanned and likely low skill PCs...grebbers are usually that and they make a good living.

Oh sure, you might go through a few grebbing PCs and never have a problem...but that means you are just the tregil nobody spotted...yet.

Same applies to the PCs making trips. If there is not a large sum of money to be made doing that, People will not...Think of the raiders man! Oh, and the gypsies...and thieves OH MY!
And Nenyuk...That banking house would go broke if it was not for the piles of grebber coin...For them grebbers  and cross country traders are likely the best investment.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Meh, I am fine with that...gives my raiders somebody to raid.

No, I am not kidding...A good raider usually picks on unclanned and likely low skill PCs...grebbers are usually that and they make a good living.

Oh sure, you might go through a few grebbing PCs and never have a problem...but that means you are just the tregil nobody spotted...yet.

Same applies to the PCs making trips. If there is not a large sum of money to be made doing that, People will not...Think of the raiders man!

I don't play raiders, but having had run ins with at least one of X-D's more infamous raiding pcs... I concur.

Also, there are possibly reasons in many of the cases you're thinking of for why they are the way that they are. When the thread that got linked earlier was open and active, I sent in info on a few items thinking they were overpriced or wonky. Only to be told the reasons -why- they weren't. And they made a lot of sense (thanks Nyr!). Couldn't hurt to put in a request, but I think you'll likely be pleasantly surprised in many of these cases at the thought that went into the pricing on them and the reasoning why it is what it is.

[number13]

Oh sure, you might go through a few grebbing PCs and never have a problem...but that means you are just the tregil nobody spotted...yet.

There's very safe places to greb up ridiculous amounts of salable items.

[X-D]

If you say so....Though unless you have found an apartment where you can forage salt or something....and even that is not safe.

Still, well dressed PCs are marks, Well dressed unclanned PCs are bigger marks...it matters not where they got the coin.

Besides, In the end, every PC in this game ends the same two ways and coin does not matter. 

BTW, I have successfully raided PCs in at least 3 different lawful taverns, several apartments. I have happily watched Templars shake down unclanned grebbers for 500+ coins just for the honor of bowing to them. I have seen wondrous cons by gypsies and elves sneak away with everything they could off some unclanned grebber in a tavern...while meanwhile some burgler was having a great time in the apartment.

After posting all this, I really do not think the economy is out of wack, I think it is nearly correctly balanced.

[number13]

Also, there are possibly reasons in many of the cases you're thinking of for why they are the way that they are. When the thread that got linked earlier was open and active, I sent in info on a few items thinking they were overpriced or wonky. Only to be told the reasons -why- they weren't. And they made a lot of sense (thanks Nyr!). Couldn't hurt to put in a request, but I think you'll likely be pleasantly surprised in many of these cases at the thought that went into the pricing on them and the reasoning why it is what it is.

Naw, I can already guess what the reasons are for the pricing for various items. But I think the standard should be, "Would a PC buy this item for close to this price?"

In many cases, the prices for weapons, armor, tools, and cures are actually reasonable. Some issues: objects of certain materials are wildly overpriced in one city state or the other, and most can already guess what I'm referring to. Personally, I think the premium tacked on it way, way too high, but that's just me.

The prices for certain objects would never be paid by a PC. Broadly, the NPC herblists wares are overpriced. It would be nice to be able to buy stuff from the herbalist to use for herbalistic thingies. But I never will, because most of the prices are inflated far beyond the value of what you can earn or do with the objects.

[number13]

If you say so....Though unless you have found an apartment where you can forage salt or something....and even that is not safe.

The location is safer than an apartment, assuming the raider is bowing to RP considerations.

edit: i'll just put in a request concerning this one particular location. I'm sure there's others.

[X-D]

Whenever I hear that I wonder if the grebber is bowing to the same considerations.

But no matter, In the long and short term, how much coin an indy/commoner has means very little....let them have at it, generally it is the newer players that take  advantage anyway.


Edit
That is the best bet anyway....There are places flagged wrong in game still, bugging or putting in a request tends to be helpful.

[Maso]

I'd like to be able to sell 150 Foo Fruit (my haul for the week, or the fortnight) for 2 'sid each. But since you can only sell Foo Fruit five times or even only once...if you are lucky...Then I guess I wanna sell it for 200 'sid. :/

[musashi]

My perspective:

The problem we always run into is that the more restrictive you make buying and selling things in the NPC market place in terms of price, or quantity ... the more you end up just pooping on the off peak and low play time people when what you wanted to do was poop on the people who are logged in a lot and spam selling.

I liked one idea I heard in a different thread, I think it was something Lizzie posted. Basically, have NPC vendors pay realistic rates for items, but only buy X number of them in a given time frame from each individual PC. So Bob can sell five, Amos can sell five, etc etc. Doesn't make perfect sense from a strictly IC perspective, but neither does the fact that some player characters are logged in more than others. -- I think that would go a long way to helping keep income levels of player characters proportionate with what their virtual counter parts should have.

[number13]

Ideally, as you sell Foo-Fruits in a particular city, the cost of Foo Fruits would decrease. Or as PCs buy Foo Fruits, the cost increases.  (Virtually, the vendors sell to each other and to NPCs, equalizing the price across a particular region). Off-peak would handle itself -- there would be less PCs buying, but also less PCs selling.

It would be a pretty big change to the vendor code, but there are probably ways of making it less painful. Like a variable for each item and each class of item (so that dumping Foo Fruits on a market also somewhat decreases the cost of meats, as there's more food to go around) that is multiplied with the base cost of the item.

So vendors could accept 150 Foo-Fruits, but by the time you're selling the 50th, the price has dropped dramatically, and will stay low until and unless PCs and virtual NPCs buy those 50 Foo Fruits.

[musashi]

The problem with that is that it does nothing to address the basic issue: Some people play for 1 hour a day, and some play for 6. The one playing for six is going to be the one to have the time to greb up tons off stuff, sell it till the price drops, and leave nothing but low prices for the off peakers/low play time people who log in after.

[Uberskaapie]

Whether or not a PC would pay for some item that they know OOC is easily available doesn't have anything to do with the IC economy.

When I started playing I was obsessed with trying to figure out the safest way to get the richest, but I (and many others) got over it once I realized that's not how you win this game. Exploits exist in armageddon - if/when the one you're referring to gets closed, there will still be other places to spam forage. Luckily, as a playerbase we don't all fall into that trap, otherwise everyone in Zalanthas would be a Foo Fruit Farmer. They're not.

[Maso]

Different maximums for different kinds of items. e.g. the craft shop is happy to have a 1000 feathers in stock, but they would only bothing having a couple of antique letterpress machines at any given time. No max per character...just enough to go around and more realistic pricing. If you want to make a living off grebbing fruit...then it's going to be slow, arduous and incredibly boring. Then digging up food goes back to being something poor and desperate or wild living people do. Ginka farming becomes a more attractive career.

It's not -just- about money. It's about satisfaction. There's nothing quite like the frustration of not being able to sell your hard earned stuff for anything at all.

[Fujikoma]

I'd like to say I really don't see a problem. That said, I'd also like to say I haven't been playing long and don't really know shit, well, except how to make some decent cash and some simple tactics for increasing the likelihood of survival (which I'm not sharing, because then they'd be less likely to work). In the end, it's not about the sid, it's about that special feeling your character gets when they mean something more to someone other than just being a fresh pair of boots. The cash is a side benefit.

In the end, if I'm understanding X-D correctly, if you run around flashing your cash and wearing all silks you're going to start to look like an attractive target, regardless of how safe your grebbing is. The risk/reward factor begins to slide towards the favorable side of the scale and eventually someone will separate you from the fruits of you labors by many different means, and it will probably get you killed without powerful allies. They needn't catch  you at work to do it.

It's a lesson I've learned on other muds, as well as could be learned in real life. Walk into a convenience store in an extremely poor neighborhood dressed nicely and flash a big, fat wad of cash without any backup, and if you can make it to your car you'll be lucky, but still terribly mistaken, because you will have been tempting fate.

Some of the neighborhoods I've lived in, people wouldn't give a second thought to giving you brain damage with a two-by-four or slitting your throat for some nice shoes they could sell or a small chunk of cash. But they generally don't bother eachother too much unless someone owes someone money because nobody has anything. Friendly enough people though, just know they'll have no problems knocking you over for being a big-shot. After a while I felt at home there, and a lot of people were looking out for me and ready to come to my aid if anyone started causing me problems.

[AreteX]

If you are out spam foraging in a location that is "safe" you are likely abusing the system a bit, am I right?  If the foraging location is "safe" and able to produce vasts amounts of 'sid you should report it to staff and let them decide what to do with it.

I think a key thing to do for all of us is to just play realistically.  Are you really going to take your beetle, load it up with bags of A and travel through dangerous sands, once every in game week(once a RL day or so) to sell off Bags of A for extra 'sid because the other city's merchants buy them for high profit?  You don't just up and ride from Allanak to Tuluk even if it is possible.  Are you a seasoned ranger?  Traveler?  Or just some grebber who knows some OOC stuff about stuff?  My character wouldn't have the first clue about Luirs, or Tuluk or Allanak, if they had never been before.  How would I even know what to sell and where?  What would even give me the idea in the first place to leave the only city I've ever known for some other city to sell some stuff... braving all manner of baddies.

I don't think there is a problem until someone abuses it and makes it a problem.  Stop selling so much stuff.  Make some 'sid.  Greb a bit... drink some at a tavern, but just stick to your character and what they would do even if you do know you could make OVER 9,000 'sid!

[Morrolan]

If you are out spam foraging in a location that is "safe" you are likely abusing the system a bit, am I right?  If the foraging location is "safe" and able to produce vasts amounts of 'sid you should report it to staff and let them decide what to do with it.

If a foraging location is "safe" that doesn't make it actually safe.

Just do a quick poll: how many grebbers have been doing it for 10 years IG. Not "virtual" grebbing, but actual grebbing.

[Hicksville Hoochie]

If you are out spam foraging in a location that is "safe" you are likely abusing the system a bit, am I right?  If the foraging location is "safe" and able to produce vasts amounts of 'sid you should report it to staff and let them decide what to do with it.

I think a key thing to do for all of us is to just play realistically.  Are you really going to take your beetle, load it up with bags of A and travel through dangerous sands, once every in game week(once a RL day or so) to sell off Bags of A for extra 'sid because the other city's merchants buy them for high profit?  You don't just up and ride from Allanak to Tuluk even if it is possible.  Are you a seasoned ranger?  Traveler?  Or just some grebber who knows some OOC stuff about stuff?  My character wouldn't have the first clue about Luirs, or Tuluk or Allanak, if they had never been before.  How would I even know what to sell and where?  What would even give me the idea in the first place to leave the only city I've ever known for some other city to sell some stuff... braving all manner of baddies.

I don't think there is a problem until someone abuses it and makes it a problem.  Stop selling so much stuff.  Make some 'sid.  Greb a bit... drink some at a tavern, but just stick to your character and what they would do even if you do know you could make OVER 9,000 'sid!

So much love for this post.

While I haven't personally witnessed real any abuse of the economy myself, and am not accusing anyone with my following words; I see enough on the forums to believe there might actually be a problem. The above post says so much on how to fix it. When you make a new PC, let yourself forget all that juicy stuff you know and learned from your last PC - the new PC isn't that PC, and more likely than not, knows nothing about those secret spots of uber-sid. And even if you must go back to it, make it a bit of an adventure for yourself - wander around a bit and miss it on purpose, come back an IG week later and maybe finally find it. Gear and riches are such a teensie part of the possible game experience here - the only way to truly "win" at Arma is to have a blast running well-played, fun characters until some filthy breed takes their boots.

[Potaje]

If by hinting the reference to items that are beyond most pc's willingness to pay for, I think the reason is simply that. Pc's are not meant to readily buy up such things with ease for both game balance and to reflect the special use of the item.

As the example of the herbalist, this shop offers many things that has great and very powerful uses for several guilds, both mundane and not.

Though you could get a lot of coin for such items, they do resale for much more. But in that, itself, makes sense. You get paid well for something you and others likely would not want everyone and their gortok having.

So what seems an unreasonable price is rather reasonable.

[chrisdcoulombe]

Things can be traded.

[Riya OniSenshi]

Things can be traded.

Especially food items.

[Maso]

In an ideal world it would be nice to the code around trading be a bit more versatile. To able to haggle with trades would be nice and also to be able to trade multiple items for one item and vice versa. Also, consider having shopkeepers accept trade certain items that don't sell, but rather might want to take home. E.g. it would be nice to barter for a hammer in the tool shop by offering the shopkeeper a stone of mek steak to feed his family for a week. Etc.

[HammerofJericho]

Safety is an illusion. >.>

[Fujikoma]

Truth be told, my characters don't feel safe anywhere, which is probably why only one of my characters has been PKed so far. Paranoia is your friend when they really are out to get you. I just know number two is going to jump out and get me because I made this post. 

[Wug]

Can we talk about some of the stranger things a PC can do in game to get money?

As it stands, a PC can take a leisurely stroll out the gate, spend a little bit of time spamming forage in a safe location (or just picking up a couple of different respawning items), and then wander back with objects that sell for absurd amounts to NPC merchants.  The NPC then vends these items at prices that no PC would ever pay.  It's also possible to take trips between one location and another, buying certain items for insanely low and selling for insanely high.

It's fine and good to be able to make coins via these methods, but the discrepancy between effort and amount earned is incredibly bad for PC interaction. Nine times out of ten, it to the benefit of a player to sell to an NPC merchant, rather than haggling out more interesting deals with other players. Not to mention, these sorts of activities make it a billion times more profitable to be an independent. There's no way that, say, an Allanaki noble living on his stipend alone can outspend even the laziest PC forager/crafter.

The two questions are: Is it an actual problem, or are things fine the way they are?

If things are not good, how can they be fixed? How much work is it to fix them?  Let's say a Foo-Fruit can be picked up easily, sells for 200 coins without haggling, and vends for 300 coins (a price no PC would pay for a 'free' object).  Would an effort at fixing all the prices for these (many, many) objects be too large a task?

I don't think this is a problem that can be fixed by code. Some players will always find ways for their characters to make more money than their characters realistically "should" have. Fortunately, money isn't everything in the world of Zalanthas and characters who have a lot of money without the social standing to back it up are at the mercy of greater powers. An independent flaunting their fat bank account might suddenly find themselves paying taxes or killed for the fancy stuff they're wearing.

Yes, some characters can accrue a lot of money in a short amount of time. Fortunately the social system in Zalanthas tends to prey on such individuals, and they don't live very long. Social power is the real currency in the city states, and it can be used quite effectively to drain the coin out of some upjumped independent by those that wield it.

[Maso]

Can we talk about some of the stranger things a PC can do in game to get money?

As it stands, a PC can take a leisurely stroll out the gate, spend a little bit of time spamming forage in a safe location (or just picking up a couple of different respawning items), and then wander back with objects that sell for absurd amounts to NPC merchants.  The NPC then vends these items at prices that no PC would ever pay.  It's also possible to take trips between one location and another, buying certain items for insanely low and selling for insanely high.

It's fine and good to be able to make coins via these methods, but the discrepancy between effort and amount earned is incredibly bad for PC interaction. Nine times out of ten, it to the benefit of a player to sell to an NPC merchant, rather than haggling out more interesting deals with other players. Not to mention, these sorts of activities make it a billion times more profitable to be an independent. There's no way that, say, an Allanaki noble living on his stipend alone can outspend even the laziest PC forager/crafter.

The two questions are: Is it an actual problem, or are things fine the way they are?

If things are not good, how can they be fixed? How much work is it to fix them?  Let's say a Foo-Fruit can be picked up easily, sells for 200 coins without haggling, and vends for 300 coins (a price no PC would pay for a 'free' object).  Would an effort at fixing all the prices for these (many, many) objects be too large a task?

I don't think this is a problem that can be fixed by code. Some players will always find ways for their characters to make more money than their characters realistically "should" have. Fortunately, money isn't everything in the world of Zalanthas and characters who have a lot of money without the social standing to back it up are at the mercy of greater powers. An independent flaunting their fat bank account might suddenly find themselves paying taxes or killed for the fancy stuff they're wearing.

Yes, some characters can accrue a lot of money in a short amount of time. Fortunately the social system in Zalanthas tends to prey on such individuals, and they don't live very long. Social power is the real currency in the city states, and it can be used quite effectively to drain the coin out of some upjumped independent by those that wield it.

<3

[DustMight]

Can we talk about some of the stranger things a PC can do in game to get money?

As it stands, a PC can take a leisurely stroll out the gate, spend a little bit of time spamming forage in a safe location (or just picking up a couple of different respawning items), and then wander back with objects that sell for absurd amounts to NPC merchants.  The NPC then vends these items at prices that no PC would ever pay.  It's also possible to take trips between one location and another, buying certain items for insanely low and selling for insanely high.

Be the change.
Don't spam forage.
Don't sell all your stuffs.
Don't be so damn savy.
Is your character really all that up on the market? 

[Is Friday]

Wug's post reminds me of when a certain wealthy indie tried putting out a hit on my socially powerful but poor PC. So my PC just scoffed at the bounty and killed her + her friends.

Get Zalanthan about your problems, bros.

[Marauder Moe]

It's true.  Money isn't power.  Money can buy you power, but you have to actually make the transactions.

[James de Monet]

It's true.  Money isn't power.  Money can buy you power, but you have to actually make the transactions.

Heh, amusing, but true.

Also, don't forget that doing so in a lot of smaller transactions is usually better than doing so in one big transaction. Zalanthas is very much a "what have you done for me lately?" type society.

[hatchets]

I used to think this same thing, having always played characters whom would venture out. Like man, its so easy to get this item, I would never buy it from that shop for the over inflated price it has...

Then I got mugged a few times and thought... Meh still wouldn't pay that price if I really wanted that item it's so easy to get.

Then I stopped playing a character whom goes out and does the actual work to get items. And while its annoying sometimes to have to wait for something to be brought into a shop, or specifically into my character. I now can see why an item can be offered at a higher price and I am willing to pay that higher price if I have use for the item.

If anything, I just wish on reboots the shops didn't get emptied. I love watching them fill up with random things people go out and get because the shop already has 5 of each of the common items and won't buy anymore.

No I don't think they should buy more of that item, I think that if something is in demand, it will be bought and then you can sell them more of what is in demand. Plus the NPC shopper code helps move things along aswell.

[Norcal]

Most of the population of Zalanthas is virtual. And as far as I  understand it, most of them live and work in urban centers. Hunters who work to supply the cities are probably a small group. With the exception of the Pah, I don't see too many NPC hunters out in the wastes.

On the other hand demand for hides, bone, meat, wood etc. would be high. Just think about how much wood is needed just for cooking. Leather and cloth containers would be constantly wearing out. So the high prices for these items in shops seems reasonable. What often strikes me as odd is when a raw material is worth more than the finished item made from it.

In any case, it seems quite realistic that a good hunter/gatherer could get wealthy from her activities. Yet that money will bring them a world of trouble as well. A fat bank account might quickly come to the attention of a number of different groups, including the bankers.
Spending the money is even more risky, as all that fancy gear will draw attention. Especially them nice boots.

It is true that money can buy power.  It's also true that money can buy those -with- power. Smart money buys protection.

In Zalanthas getting rich and staying alive is expensive.

[Morrolan]

If anything, I just wish on reboots the shops didn't get emptied. I love watching them fill up with random things people go out and get because the shop already has 5 of each of the common items and won't buy anymore.

On the one hand, I like this idea. On the other hand, it would make the coded jobs that much more common and powerful.

Moving in this direction would be a good move for the game economy in the long run. But there would be a period of adjustment.

[evilcabbage]

I just want to say those so-called "safe" places that even I have foraged in before can become the most harrowing and frightening experiences of your life in two wanderings of incredibly dangerous mobs.

Remember, kiddies, even the beginning of the salt flats is not safe from Mekillot who has chased Amos from deep in the Salt Flats to just outside the gates of Allanak.

[Eyeball]

If anything, I just wish on reboots the shops didn't get emptied. I love watching them fill up with random things people go out and get because the shop already has 5 of each of the common items and won't buy anymore.

With crafter types, I try to help with this. Even though there's usually a recipe that's far more profitable than the others for a given material or set of materials, by producing a variety of goods from that material, PCs have more choice in the market.

It's true that diligent grebbers can amass large sums of coins. But then what? Soon they realize there's nothing (physical) to spend it on. A grebber won't be able to buy a property, or a wagon, or reliable NPC help, or metal items. Not even fine clothing without being mocked and maybe beaten. Maybe the grebber can bribe a templar or noble or House Agent, but that promotes plotting and intrigue.

And if the grebber doesn't try to accumulate wealth, then at least he doesn't have to spend 90% of his time just scratching to survive. More time for talking and partaking of events.

[Desertman]

I'll save everyone the long drawn out version of the same thing I have posted before.

The banking code has not been updated along with the rest of the economy in the game since the beginning of time as I understand it.

We have a banking system in game....the system that is basically in charge of a huge part of any realistic functioning economy, that is there as an OOC convenience for the playerbase and nothing more. It is not an interactive/useful aspect of said economy on any front in my opinion.

Wanting to fix/alter any economy, even a virtual one, without also altering the banking structure of said economy, especially when there is only one global ruling bank is like trying to make scrambled eggs without ever even having a chicken.

[Fujikoma]

Doesn't the bank just keep your money when you inevitably die?... Or maybe I missed something and you can bring in the severed head of Amos for access to his account.

[Desertman]

Doesn't the bank just keep your money when you inevitably die?... Or maybe I missed something and you can bring in the severed head of Amos for access to his account.

Link here for reference.

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,42707.50.html

[evilcabbage]

Doesn't the bank just keep your money when you inevitably die?... Or maybe I missed something and you can bring in the severed head of Amos for access to his account.

"Hello sir I was best friends with Amosa and..."

"Who? Never heard of him."

"But sir, he used your bank for years and had thousands of coins..."

"I said never heard of him. Go away."

[Fujikoma]

EDIT: *blah, delete post because it doesn't add to conversation*

[Nyr]

I'll save everyone the long drawn out version of the same thing I have posted before.

I'll give you the same short answer I gave then:  we're not changing banking to the extent that you suggested there.  We certainly can make tweaks but a wholesale restructuring of how banking and the entire economy of Zalanthas is not something we're reviewing right now because it works well enough to suit the purposes of a functioning game.

[Desertman]

I'll save everyone the long drawn out version of the same thing I have posted before.

I'll give you the same short answer I gave then:  we're not changing banking to the extent that you suggested there.  We certainly can make tweaks but a wholesale restructuring of how banking and the entire economy of Zalanthas is not something we're reviewing right now because it works well enough to suit the purposes of a functioning game.

See you in another year, roughly.  

I agree it "is good enough". I will however continue to try and convince the staff as a whole to make it "better". Of course I wouldn't want "all" of that to happen in one big change. It would throw things into chaos, and I absolutely do not know what the majority of that would do to the game world. But, small tweaks moving in that direction over time....I'm all on board.

[DustMight]

I think it would be interesting if we did away with banks altogether.
If people had to haul around scads of coin all the time -thievery and conflict would enjoy good times.
Nobles could trade notes of trade among themselves and have their servants handling the coin (and perhaps skimming).

Knowing you have to travel and can't carry your 10k in coin because its just too damn heavy would be a good thing.
Hiring people responsible for transporting that would give jobs to transporters, professional money-counters whatever.

I just like it. It would make the world more dangerous and make travel more interesting.

[Riev]

I think it would be interesting if we did away with banks altogether.
If people had to haul around scads of coin all the time -thievery and conflict would enjoy good times.
Nobles could trade notes of trade among themselves and have their servants handling the coin (and perhaps skimming).

Knowing you have to travel and can't carry your 10k in coin because its just too damn heavy would be a good thing.
Hiring people responsible for transporting that would give jobs to transporters, professional money-counters whatever.

I just like it. It would make the world more dangerous and make travel more interesting.

The idea of each Noble House having its own "treasury" would be kind of nice. The benefit to working for them, as opposed to for yourself, would be access to "using" their treasury to store your coin. Otherwise, you carry around a few large at all times. Maybe rent a good apartment, but you can't hide ALL your coin ALL the time.

Housed employees, noble or Merchant, would definitely have a "safe(ER)" place to put their things, and this would make it much more difficult to be an indy.

[Barzalene]

I think it would be interesting if we did away with banks altogether.
If people had to haul around scads of coin all the time -thievery and conflict would enjoy good times.
Nobles could trade notes of trade among themselves and have their servants handling the coin (and perhaps skimming).

Knowing you have to travel and can't carry your 10k in coin because its just too damn heavy would be a good thing.
Hiring people responsible for transporting that would give jobs to transporters, professional money-counters whatever.

I just like it. It would make the world more dangerous and make travel more interesting.

The idea of each Noble House having its own "treasury" would be kind of nice. The benefit to working for them, as opposed to for yourself, would be access to "using" their treasury to store your coin. Otherwise, you carry around a few large at all times. Maybe rent a good apartment, but you can't hide ALL your coin ALL the time.

Housed employees, noble or Merchant, would definitely have a "safe(ER)" place to put their things, and this would make it much more difficult to be an indy.

I like it.  What about the Byn?

[Jherlen]

I think it would be interesting if we did away with banks altogether.
If people had to haul around scads of coin all the time -thievery and conflict would enjoy good times.
Nobles could trade notes of trade among themselves and have their servants handling the coin (and perhaps skimming).

Knowing you have to travel and can't carry your 10k in coin because its just too damn heavy would be a good thing.
Hiring people responsible for transporting that would give jobs to transporters, professional money-counters whatever.

I just like it. It would make the world more dangerous and make travel more interesting.

The idea of each Noble House having its own "treasury" would be kind of nice. The benefit to working for them, as opposed to for yourself, would be access to "using" their treasury to store your coin. Otherwise, you carry around a few large at all times. Maybe rent a good apartment, but you can't hide ALL your coin ALL the time.

Housed employees, noble or Merchant, would definitely have a "safe(ER)" place to put their things, and this would make it much more difficult to be an indy.

I like it.  What about the Byn?

Well, what do you think they keep beneath the latrines?

[Narf]

I think it would be interesting if we did away with banks altogether.
If people had to haul around scads of coin all the time -thievery and conflict would enjoy good times.
Nobles could trade notes of trade among themselves and have their servants handling the coin (and perhaps skimming).

Knowing you have to travel and can't carry your 10k in coin because its just too damn heavy would be a good thing.
Hiring people responsible for transporting that would give jobs to transporters, professional money-counters whatever.

I just like it. It would make the world more dangerous and make travel more interesting.

We already have a sample of what will happen if this were enacted by looking at the raw material economy. What's more, because raw materials and heavier and more encumbering than coins the effects of it should be exaggerated compared to the money economy.

And yet the interaction provided by it isn't that impressive. People rarely hire the Byn to transport lumber. Bandits and pickpockets don't flock to grebbers to steal their what-have-you's, and the big warehouses of clan materials are really only a moderately attractive force.

This isn't to say it hasn't added anything to the game, it just wasn't as significant as people are prognosticating would happen with a similar change to the coin economy. And coins aren't even close to as encumbering as lumber and stone.

[spicemustflow]

Your comparison is weird. You don't think that two large chests of coins would present a much more attractive target than several tons of lumber?

[Riev]

I think what he's saying is that since people tend to just transport their raw goods, as they are, and since that is already a pretty "safe" enterprise, that transporting coins wouldn't be as dangerous.

Though, transporting a chest of obsidian is worth a lot more than a small party of agafari logs.

[Desertman]

I think what he's saying is that since people tend to just transport their raw goods, as they are, and since that is already a pretty "safe" enterprise, that transporting coins wouldn't be as dangerous.

Though, transporting a chest of obsidian is worth a lot more than a small party of agafari logs.

I've said it before, I will say it again.

Deposit 1300

You deposit 1300 coins with a Nenyuki banker.

A Nenyuki banker hands you a darkly-stained leather voucher.

A Nenyuki banker says to you in sirihish, "Please present this voucher to reclaim your coins."

Offer Voucher

You give a darkly-stained leather voucher to a Nenyuki banker.

A Nenyuki banker gives you 1300 coins.



(I would prefer if they charged you 10% of the balance on the voucher to reclaim the coins the voucher represents, as that would be very realistic and "Zalanthan" for a House that has a monopoly on the only bank in the world.)


Suddenly, the banking system makes a lot more IC sense, and suddenly you can't just deposit your vast salt foraging fortune into Nenyuk and have it be 100% safe from anyone who would want to raid you. Conflict incoming.

Also, this makes it so that low end folks who can't afford the services of Nenyuk will keep their coins on them as well. Can't afford/don't want to pay Nenyuk's 10% fee to bank with them? Well, enjoy guarding/defending your wealth yourself, instead of having Nenyuk do it for you.

[Riev]

In that system, D-Man, what would be the way in which a House could have its "shared" account be different from a single Noble's account?

I'm not saying mine would handle it ANY better, but that WOULD be an issue, as sometimes its necessary to use House/Clan funds for something rather than your personal account.

Though I like the idea of a voucher of sorts. Easier to hide, easier to steal, and it'd be like saying "Gimme your wallet" out in the sands. Also..


Deposit numerous 50coin instances, get back 20 vouchers. "Sorry man this is all I have... please don't kill me." or even "We're running a raffle for these Nenyuki vouchers of varying amounts! Buy in today!"

[Lizzie]

So what happens when you deposit 1300 today, and get a voucher. In two days, you deposit another 250, and get a voucher. Then two days later, you deposit 300, get a voucher.

By the end of the RL week, you have, let's say - 2000 total, with 7 vouchers.

Now - you need some money. You need 400 sids to pay the rent.

Which voucher do you cash in?

And how do you know that's the one, if your character can't read?

What happens if you cash the wrong one for, oh - 200 sids. So now you need just 200 sids more. So you grab another one - that's the 700-sid one. Woops. Now you have 900 sids, and you only wanted 400. So you have to deposit 500 sids...and get another voucher.

Sounds like a WHOLE lot of work to me, isn't even remotely realistic (since - realistically, people know how to read and don't use obsidian as currency and don't have bank accounts that don't require them to sign things - which they can't do because they can't write, either)...

A waste of time, an added frustration, that doesn't do anything believably, or playably, or realistically. It's just another thing to make the game harder, without providing any useful functionality.

[Desertman]

In that system, D-Man, what would be the way in which a House could have its "shared" account be different from a single Noble's account?

I'm not saying mine would handle it ANY better, but that WOULD be an issue, as sometimes its necessary to use House/Clan funds for something rather than your personal account.

Though I like the idea of a voucher of sorts. Easier to hide, easier to steal, and it'd be like saying "Gimme your wallet" out in the sands. Also..


Deposit numerous 50coin instances, get back 20 vouchers. "Sorry man this is all I have... please don't kill me." or even "We're running a raffle for these Nenyuki vouchers of varying amounts! Buy in today!"

Maybe "House Accounts" could be "left alone" for coding purposes in this instance. That is a perk of having a House account, no fees and/or it would be assumed Nenyuk handles House banking fees on a very high end level above the PC's.

[Desertman]

So what happens when you deposit 1300 today, and get a voucher. In two days, you deposit another 250, and get a voucher. Then two days later, you deposit 300, get a voucher.

By the end of the RL week, you have, let's say - 2000 total, with 7 vouchers.

Now - you need some money. You need 400 sids to pay the rent.

Which voucher do you cash in?

And how do you know that's the one, if your character can't read?

What happens if you cash the wrong one for, oh - 200 sids. So now you need just 200 sids more. So you grab another one - that's the 700-sid one. Woops. Now you have 900 sids, and you only wanted 400. So you have to deposit 500 sids...and get another voucher.

Sounds like a WHOLE lot of work to me, isn't even remotely realistic (since - realistically, people know how to read and don't use obsidian as currency and don't have bank accounts that don't require them to sign things - which they can't do because they can't write, either)...

A waste of time, an added frustration, that doesn't do anything believably, or playably, or realistically. It's just another thing to make the game harder, without providing any useful functionality.

get coins pack

get voucher pack

offer voucher

deposit total amount

Walk away with one voucher.

If you want to carry five vouchers on you, that is up to you, but if that is your choice, it is up to you to remember which voucher goes with which amount.

It's like having five mount tickets on you now. It is up to you to remember which mount ticket goes with which creature, or you just cost yourself 20 coins to get out a mount you don't need.

Really, most people would just make sure to consolidate their funds under a single voucher every time they stop at the bank. It would mean an extra three commands, depending on how quickly they type....your problem is resolved with about eight seconds of work on the part of the player.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Uh, just have a ticket specific to each region of the world. Then force people to transport their coins between locations in person. Money is relatively safe as long as you stay in one location - it's moving between locations with your funds that is dangerous.

a cross-emblazoned ticket
a sun-emblazoned ticket
a storm-emblazoned ticket
a outpost-emblazoned ticket
so and and so forth

[Desertman]

Uh, just have a ticket specific to each region of the world. Then force people to transport their coins between locations in person. Money is relatively safe as long as you stay in one location - it's moving between locations with your funds that is dangerous.

a cross-emblazoned ticket
a sun-emblazoned ticket
a storm-emblazoned ticket
a outpost-emblazoned ticket
so and and so forth

Ohhh, I like this too.

This is a lot better than my recommendation to introduce multiple currencies and currency exchange NPC's. (Thread from about a year ago.)

This is a much more simple way of forcing people to transport their fortunes in a realistic manner.

[TillForPie]

Uh, just have a ticket specific to each region of the world. Then force people to transport their coins between locations in person. Money is relatively safe as long as you stay in one location - it's moving between locations with your funds that is dangerous.

a cross-emblazoned ticket
a sun-emblazoned ticket
a storm-emblazoned ticket
a outpost-emblazoned ticket
so and and so forth

I like this.

[Barsook]

Uh, just have a ticket specific to each region of the world. Then force people to transport their coins between locations in person. Money is relatively safe as long as you stay in one location - it's moving between locations with your funds that is dangerous.

a cross-emblazoned ticket
a sun-emblazoned ticket
a storm-emblazoned ticket
a outpost-emblazoned ticket
so and and so forth

I like this.

[evilcabbage]

I hate this.

[Fujikoma]

I hate this.

Aw, you hate everything, but... For once I must agree, although I will choose the words "Dislike, but will learn to cope with if it becomes a reality".

[evilcabbage]

My solution: Any bank account that's independent with over 1,000 coins in it should be taxed lightly. Any independent with over 5k should be taxed moderately. 10k? Heavily. 20k? Voraciously.

[Eyeball]

What people seem to have lost track of here is that, beyond a certain point, money is useless to an independent anyhow. What is he going to spend it on? Even silks would just make him a target of hostility.

It doesn't take a newly rich independent long to figure this out either.

[Riev]

What people seem to have lost track of here is that, beyond a certain point, money is useless to an independent anyhow. What is he going to spend it on? Even silks would just make him a target of hostility.

It doesn't take a newly rich independent long to figure this out either.

I think thats why people are advocating that their money just isn't 100% safe, then. 20k doesn't buy you much, if nobody likes you or is willing to do what you want anyways. So if you have that much, why let it sit in a bank? If you can't spend it on plots or people, maybe it should be able to be a target.

[Synthesis]

Pegging bank accounts to tickets is a really stupid idea, both for raiders and for depositors.

We can all imagine what the downside for depositors would be, so I'm not going to belabor that.

For raiders, though, the downside is that every swinging dick in the Known World is going to run like their entire life savings is in their pack, because THEIR ENTIRE LIFE SAVINGS IS IN THEIR PACK.

[DustMight]

Pegging bank accounts to tickets is a really stupid idea, both for raiders and for depositors.

We can all imagine what the downside for depositors would be, so I'm not going to belabor that.

For raiders, though, the downside is that every swinging dick in the Known World is going to run like their entire life savings is in their pack, because THEIR ENTIRE LIFE SAVINGS IS IN THEIR PACK.

Actually, this does not make the idea stupid.
That people run has nothing to do whether their entire life savings is in their pack or not.  People run already and their entire life savings isn't in their pack (or doesn't have to be).

The problem is that people THINK they can get away or that they are certainly dead either way.  Realistically someone would likely give up all their coin to avoid dying - if they thought they had a good chance of not dying by doing so.

[Fujikoma]

I think part of the problem is the player having the impression that the raider will take all their PC has on them and/or kill them. If bandits were less greedy, maybe there would be more opportunities for interaction, although, I must admit, some are a bit quick to run, but, if anything, when the opportunity presents itself, it's up to the raider to present themselves as not just another one of "those" raiders. An arrow to the face is a good way to communicate "I intend to kill you and take all your things".

While "Drop your packs or die!" presents an opportunity for cooperation, it obviously presents some problems... Myself, I've never had much issue with raiders, definitely enriches the grebbing/salting experience by providing real danger aside from the naturally occurring hazards.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Pegging bank accounts to tickets is a really stupid idea, both for raiders and for depositors.

We can all imagine what the downside for depositors would be, so I'm not going to belabor that.

For raiders, though, the downside is that every swinging dick in the Known World is going to run like their entire life savings is in their pack, because THEIR ENTIRE LIFE SAVINGS IS IN THEIR PACK.

This IS something I didn't necessarily think about. It does make the idea of a ticket sort of bad, particularly for independents, unless the ticket was tied to the PC and thus couldn't be used by other folks.

But I still think I'd like to see you have to transport money between individual banks. The banking system could remain exactly as it is, but instead of you depositing 12k in Allanak, and then riding to Tuluk and pulling out 12k, your account in Tuluk should be at zero, unless you transport that 12k to Tuluk.

[Drayab]

I don't like the ticket voucher idea. You're basically doing away with Nenyuk as a safe place to store your money, only instead of having to stash your coins because there isn't a bank, you have to stash your voucher so you can get your coins back when you need them. If we were going this route, I would rather just stash the coins because the vouchers seem suspiciously like the beginnings of paper money.

I do like the idea of separating banks by locale. I think the current system is a little too convenient. I want travel to be both dangerous as well as lucrative, and I think this would help make travel marginally more difficult. One more thing to add on your list of necessary supplies: food, water, and coin.

I think the tax idea is almost a good idea. I would rather have a deposit fee as opposed to a periodic fee based on the balance. Make it something like a flat 5% of all deposits go straight to Nenyuk. That might provide a little encouragement for players to stash a little in the apartment and keep more on hand while still providing a rainy day fund in case disaster strikes.

[TimTembo]

I agree that people should have to move coin between the cities.

However, what will happen is that the merchant house PCs will just move it on their wagons. Maybe for a fee. It'll basically be like Nenyuk except you'll have to pay a percentage to whatever PC Agent.

The wagons won't be attacked because that can't happen without a lot of boxes being checked. It'll happen once in a great while but basically the coins will be at negligible risk.

[Patuk]

Yeah, I like the idea of needlessly overcomplicating a facet of the game without making it any more fun to show for it.

Great stuff, that.

[Desertman]

I agree that people should have to move coin between the cities.

However, what will happen is that the merchant house PCs will just move it on their wagons. Maybe for a fee. It'll basically be like Nenyuk except you'll have to pay a percentage to whatever PC Agent.

The wagons won't be attacked because that can't happen without a lot of boxes being checked. It'll happen once in a great while but basically the coins will be at negligible risk.

Wait? You mean people are going to have to start caravanning and hiring guards and creating plots/roleplay based around the idea of moving currency in a desert world in a semi-realistic manner instead of just having magic auto banking?

You are making this idea sound awesome, and I think you were advocating against it.

[evilcabbage]

He's advocating against the ticket idea. He's advocating for making bank accounts separate in different banks (even though that would be stupid because Nenyuk runs the bank structure and would KNOW who has what amount of money because they PROBABLY have ledgers and ledgers and ledgers that they read and write and keep track of)

[Desertman]

He's advocating against the ticket idea. He's advocating for making bank accounts separate in different banks (even though that would be stupid because Nenyuk runs the bank structure and would KNOW who has what amount of money because they PROBABLY have ledgers and ledgers and ledgers that they read and write and keep track of)

How do those ledgers keep track of who has what account?

We don't have social security numbers, I.D.'s, or even signatures.

Do they write, "Guy with brown hair and brown eyes, named Amos, 745 coins in account."

How many of those are there?

The ticket idea cures this issue with the realism problem, if we are going to argue realism, which I don't think we should, but if you are, make sure to cover all of your bases. The account is not attached to a person that can only be identified on sight, and even then, how many people does that Nenyuki teller see every single day? They can't remember half of the people they interact with to match faces to accounts, so on and so forth.

You know what they can match? "This ticket was marked by the teller that gave it to them to signify the account it represents is worth 745 coins. This not refutable. It doesn't matter who holds the ticket. The ticket is for this account, and they have it. I don't have to remember the face of every single person in the Known now."

[Agent_137]

interestingly, allowing for vouchers would put you one enterprising nenyuki away from a modern money supply model. Nenyuki could start to loan out more in vouchers than they have in sid.

Tek and Muk could then legislate that a certain level of required reserves must be held by nenyuki. And then the god-kings could setup their own bank and charge nenyuki a certain rate to borrow from it.

LOLonomics.

the nice thing about the current banking system in arma is that it's not complex. complexity antagonizes playability.

[KankWhisperer]

It's not as if sids aren't close to paper money as it is. It's not as if they can be made into useful items melted down, etc. They are worth something because people agree they are.

[Delirium]

complexity antagonizes playability.

yes.

[evilcabbage]

He's advocating against the ticket idea. He's advocating for making bank accounts separate in different banks (even though that would be stupid because Nenyuk runs the bank structure and would KNOW who has what amount of money because they PROBABLY have ledgers and ledgers and ledgers that they read and write and keep track of)

How do those ledgers keep track of who has what account?

We don't have social security numbers, I.D.'s, or even signatures.

Do they write, "Guy with brown hair and brown eyes, named Amos, 745 coins in account."

How many of those are there?

The ticket idea cures this issue with the realism problem, if we are going to argue realism, which I don't think we should, but if you are, make sure to cover all of your bases. The account is not attached to a person that can only be identified on sight, and even then, how many people does that Nenyuki teller see every single day? They can't remember half of the people they interact with to match faces to accounts, so on and so forth.

You know what they can match? "This ticket was marked by the teller that gave it to them to signify the account it represents is worth 745 coins. This not refutable. It doesn't matter who holds the ticket. The ticket is for this account, and they have it. I don't have to remember the face of every single person in the Known now."

Wizards do it.

[Nyr]

Pretty sure this was covered back before the thread was necro'd:

I'll save everyone the long drawn out version of the same thing I have posted before.

I'll give you the same short answer I gave then:  we're not changing banking to the extent that you suggested there.  We certainly can make tweaks but a wholesale restructuring of how banking and the entire economy of Zalanthas is not something we're reviewing right now because it works well enough to suit the purposes of a functioning game.