The Out-of-Wack Economy

[Maso]

In an ideal world it would be nice to the code around trading be a bit more versatile. To able to haggle with trades would be nice and also to be able to trade multiple items for one item and vice versa. Also, consider having shopkeepers accept trade certain items that don't sell, but rather might want to take home. E.g. it would be nice to barter for a hammer in the tool shop by offering the shopkeeper a stone of mek steak to feed his family for a week. Etc.

[HammerofJericho]

Safety is an illusion. >.>

[Fujikoma]

Truth be told, my characters don't feel safe anywhere, which is probably why only one of my characters has been PKed so far. Paranoia is your friend when they really are out to get you. I just know number two is going to jump out and get me because I made this post. 

[Wug]

Can we talk about some of the stranger things a PC can do in game to get money?

As it stands, a PC can take a leisurely stroll out the gate, spend a little bit of time spamming forage in a safe location (or just picking up a couple of different respawning items), and then wander back with objects that sell for absurd amounts to NPC merchants.  The NPC then vends these items at prices that no PC would ever pay.  It's also possible to take trips between one location and another, buying certain items for insanely low and selling for insanely high.

It's fine and good to be able to make coins via these methods, but the discrepancy between effort and amount earned is incredibly bad for PC interaction. Nine times out of ten, it to the benefit of a player to sell to an NPC merchant, rather than haggling out more interesting deals with other players. Not to mention, these sorts of activities make it a billion times more profitable to be an independent. There's no way that, say, an Allanaki noble living on his stipend alone can outspend even the laziest PC forager/crafter.

The two questions are: Is it an actual problem, or are things fine the way they are?

If things are not good, how can they be fixed? How much work is it to fix them?  Let's say a Foo-Fruit can be picked up easily, sells for 200 coins without haggling, and vends for 300 coins (a price no PC would pay for a 'free' object).  Would an effort at fixing all the prices for these (many, many) objects be too large a task?

I don't think this is a problem that can be fixed by code. Some players will always find ways for their characters to make more money than their characters realistically "should" have. Fortunately, money isn't everything in the world of Zalanthas and characters who have a lot of money without the social standing to back it up are at the mercy of greater powers. An independent flaunting their fat bank account might suddenly find themselves paying taxes or killed for the fancy stuff they're wearing.

Yes, some characters can accrue a lot of money in a short amount of time. Fortunately the social system in Zalanthas tends to prey on such individuals, and they don't live very long. Social power is the real currency in the city states, and it can be used quite effectively to drain the coin out of some upjumped independent by those that wield it.

[Maso]

Can we talk about some of the stranger things a PC can do in game to get money?

As it stands, a PC can take a leisurely stroll out the gate, spend a little bit of time spamming forage in a safe location (or just picking up a couple of different respawning items), and then wander back with objects that sell for absurd amounts to NPC merchants.  The NPC then vends these items at prices that no PC would ever pay.  It's also possible to take trips between one location and another, buying certain items for insanely low and selling for insanely high.

It's fine and good to be able to make coins via these methods, but the discrepancy between effort and amount earned is incredibly bad for PC interaction. Nine times out of ten, it to the benefit of a player to sell to an NPC merchant, rather than haggling out more interesting deals with other players. Not to mention, these sorts of activities make it a billion times more profitable to be an independent. There's no way that, say, an Allanaki noble living on his stipend alone can outspend even the laziest PC forager/crafter.

The two questions are: Is it an actual problem, or are things fine the way they are?

If things are not good, how can they be fixed? How much work is it to fix them?  Let's say a Foo-Fruit can be picked up easily, sells for 200 coins without haggling, and vends for 300 coins (a price no PC would pay for a 'free' object).  Would an effort at fixing all the prices for these (many, many) objects be too large a task?

I don't think this is a problem that can be fixed by code. Some players will always find ways for their characters to make more money than their characters realistically "should" have. Fortunately, money isn't everything in the world of Zalanthas and characters who have a lot of money without the social standing to back it up are at the mercy of greater powers. An independent flaunting their fat bank account might suddenly find themselves paying taxes or killed for the fancy stuff they're wearing.

Yes, some characters can accrue a lot of money in a short amount of time. Fortunately the social system in Zalanthas tends to prey on such individuals, and they don't live very long. Social power is the real currency in the city states, and it can be used quite effectively to drain the coin out of some upjumped independent by those that wield it.

<3

[DustMight]

Can we talk about some of the stranger things a PC can do in game to get money?

As it stands, a PC can take a leisurely stroll out the gate, spend a little bit of time spamming forage in a safe location (or just picking up a couple of different respawning items), and then wander back with objects that sell for absurd amounts to NPC merchants.  The NPC then vends these items at prices that no PC would ever pay.  It's also possible to take trips between one location and another, buying certain items for insanely low and selling for insanely high.

Be the change.
Don't spam forage.
Don't sell all your stuffs.
Don't be so damn savy.
Is your character really all that up on the market? 

[Is Friday]

Wug's post reminds me of when a certain wealthy indie tried putting out a hit on my socially powerful but poor PC. So my PC just scoffed at the bounty and killed her + her friends.

Get Zalanthan about your problems, bros.

[Marauder Moe]

It's true.  Money isn't power.  Money can buy you power, but you have to actually make the transactions.

[James de Monet]

It's true.  Money isn't power.  Money can buy you power, but you have to actually make the transactions.

Heh, amusing, but true.

Also, don't forget that doing so in a lot of smaller transactions is usually better than doing so in one big transaction. Zalanthas is very much a "what have you done for me lately?" type society.

[hatchets]

I used to think this same thing, having always played characters whom would venture out. Like man, its so easy to get this item, I would never buy it from that shop for the over inflated price it has...

Then I got mugged a few times and thought... Meh still wouldn't pay that price if I really wanted that item it's so easy to get.

Then I stopped playing a character whom goes out and does the actual work to get items. And while its annoying sometimes to have to wait for something to be brought into a shop, or specifically into my character. I now can see why an item can be offered at a higher price and I am willing to pay that higher price if I have use for the item.

If anything, I just wish on reboots the shops didn't get emptied. I love watching them fill up with random things people go out and get because the shop already has 5 of each of the common items and won't buy anymore.

No I don't think they should buy more of that item, I think that if something is in demand, it will be bought and then you can sell them more of what is in demand. Plus the NPC shopper code helps move things along aswell.

[Norcal]

Most of the population of Zalanthas is virtual. And as far as I  understand it, most of them live and work in urban centers. Hunters who work to supply the cities are probably a small group. With the exception of the Pah, I don't see too many NPC hunters out in the wastes.

On the other hand demand for hides, bone, meat, wood etc. would be high. Just think about how much wood is needed just for cooking. Leather and cloth containers would be constantly wearing out. So the high prices for these items in shops seems reasonable. What often strikes me as odd is when a raw material is worth more than the finished item made from it.

In any case, it seems quite realistic that a good hunter/gatherer could get wealthy from her activities. Yet that money will bring them a world of trouble as well. A fat bank account might quickly come to the attention of a number of different groups, including the bankers.
Spending the money is even more risky, as all that fancy gear will draw attention. Especially them nice boots.

It is true that money can buy power.  It's also true that money can buy those -with- power. Smart money buys protection.

In Zalanthas getting rich and staying alive is expensive.

[Morrolan]

If anything, I just wish on reboots the shops didn't get emptied. I love watching them fill up with random things people go out and get because the shop already has 5 of each of the common items and won't buy anymore.

On the one hand, I like this idea. On the other hand, it would make the coded jobs that much more common and powerful.

Moving in this direction would be a good move for the game economy in the long run. But there would be a period of adjustment.

[evilcabbage]

I just want to say those so-called "safe" places that even I have foraged in before can become the most harrowing and frightening experiences of your life in two wanderings of incredibly dangerous mobs.

Remember, kiddies, even the beginning of the salt flats is not safe from Mekillot who has chased Amos from deep in the Salt Flats to just outside the gates of Allanak.

[Eyeball]

If anything, I just wish on reboots the shops didn't get emptied. I love watching them fill up with random things people go out and get because the shop already has 5 of each of the common items and won't buy anymore.

With crafter types, I try to help with this. Even though there's usually a recipe that's far more profitable than the others for a given material or set of materials, by producing a variety of goods from that material, PCs have more choice in the market.

It's true that diligent grebbers can amass large sums of coins. But then what? Soon they realize there's nothing (physical) to spend it on. A grebber won't be able to buy a property, or a wagon, or reliable NPC help, or metal items. Not even fine clothing without being mocked and maybe beaten. Maybe the grebber can bribe a templar or noble or House Agent, but that promotes plotting and intrigue.

And if the grebber doesn't try to accumulate wealth, then at least he doesn't have to spend 90% of his time just scratching to survive. More time for talking and partaking of events.

[Desertman]

I'll save everyone the long drawn out version of the same thing I have posted before.

The banking code has not been updated along with the rest of the economy in the game since the beginning of time as I understand it.

We have a banking system in game....the system that is basically in charge of a huge part of any realistic functioning economy, that is there as an OOC convenience for the playerbase and nothing more. It is not an interactive/useful aspect of said economy on any front in my opinion.

Wanting to fix/alter any economy, even a virtual one, without also altering the banking structure of said economy, especially when there is only one global ruling bank is like trying to make scrambled eggs without ever even having a chicken.

[Fujikoma]

Doesn't the bank just keep your money when you inevitably die?... Or maybe I missed something and you can bring in the severed head of Amos for access to his account.

[Desertman]

Doesn't the bank just keep your money when you inevitably die?... Or maybe I missed something and you can bring in the severed head of Amos for access to his account.

Link here for reference.

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,42707.50.html

[evilcabbage]

Doesn't the bank just keep your money when you inevitably die?... Or maybe I missed something and you can bring in the severed head of Amos for access to his account.

"Hello sir I was best friends with Amosa and..."

"Who? Never heard of him."

"But sir, he used your bank for years and had thousands of coins..."

"I said never heard of him. Go away."

[Fujikoma]

EDIT: *blah, delete post because it doesn't add to conversation*

[Nyr]

I'll save everyone the long drawn out version of the same thing I have posted before.

I'll give you the same short answer I gave then:  we're not changing banking to the extent that you suggested there.  We certainly can make tweaks but a wholesale restructuring of how banking and the entire economy of Zalanthas is not something we're reviewing right now because it works well enough to suit the purposes of a functioning game.

[Desertman]

I'll save everyone the long drawn out version of the same thing I have posted before.

I'll give you the same short answer I gave then:  we're not changing banking to the extent that you suggested there.  We certainly can make tweaks but a wholesale restructuring of how banking and the entire economy of Zalanthas is not something we're reviewing right now because it works well enough to suit the purposes of a functioning game.

See you in another year, roughly.  

I agree it "is good enough". I will however continue to try and convince the staff as a whole to make it "better". Of course I wouldn't want "all" of that to happen in one big change. It would throw things into chaos, and I absolutely do not know what the majority of that would do to the game world. But, small tweaks moving in that direction over time....I'm all on board.

[DustMight]

I think it would be interesting if we did away with banks altogether.
If people had to haul around scads of coin all the time -thievery and conflict would enjoy good times.
Nobles could trade notes of trade among themselves and have their servants handling the coin (and perhaps skimming).

Knowing you have to travel and can't carry your 10k in coin because its just too damn heavy would be a good thing.
Hiring people responsible for transporting that would give jobs to transporters, professional money-counters whatever.

I just like it. It would make the world more dangerous and make travel more interesting.

[Riev]

I think it would be interesting if we did away with banks altogether.
If people had to haul around scads of coin all the time -thievery and conflict would enjoy good times.
Nobles could trade notes of trade among themselves and have their servants handling the coin (and perhaps skimming).

Knowing you have to travel and can't carry your 10k in coin because its just too damn heavy would be a good thing.
Hiring people responsible for transporting that would give jobs to transporters, professional money-counters whatever.

I just like it. It would make the world more dangerous and make travel more interesting.

The idea of each Noble House having its own "treasury" would be kind of nice. The benefit to working for them, as opposed to for yourself, would be access to "using" their treasury to store your coin. Otherwise, you carry around a few large at all times. Maybe rent a good apartment, but you can't hide ALL your coin ALL the time.

Housed employees, noble or Merchant, would definitely have a "safe(ER)" place to put their things, and this would make it much more difficult to be an indy.

[Barzalene]

I think it would be interesting if we did away with banks altogether.
If people had to haul around scads of coin all the time -thievery and conflict would enjoy good times.
Nobles could trade notes of trade among themselves and have their servants handling the coin (and perhaps skimming).

Knowing you have to travel and can't carry your 10k in coin because its just too damn heavy would be a good thing.
Hiring people responsible for transporting that would give jobs to transporters, professional money-counters whatever.

I just like it. It would make the world more dangerous and make travel more interesting.

The idea of each Noble House having its own "treasury" would be kind of nice. The benefit to working for them, as opposed to for yourself, would be access to "using" their treasury to store your coin. Otherwise, you carry around a few large at all times. Maybe rent a good apartment, but you can't hide ALL your coin ALL the time.

Housed employees, noble or Merchant, would definitely have a "safe(ER)" place to put their things, and this would make it much more difficult to be an indy.

I like it.  What about the Byn?

[Jherlen]

I think it would be interesting if we did away with banks altogether.
If people had to haul around scads of coin all the time -thievery and conflict would enjoy good times.
Nobles could trade notes of trade among themselves and have their servants handling the coin (and perhaps skimming).

Knowing you have to travel and can't carry your 10k in coin because its just too damn heavy would be a good thing.
Hiring people responsible for transporting that would give jobs to transporters, professional money-counters whatever.

I just like it. It would make the world more dangerous and make travel more interesting.

The idea of each Noble House having its own "treasury" would be kind of nice. The benefit to working for them, as opposed to for yourself, would be access to "using" their treasury to store your coin. Otherwise, you carry around a few large at all times. Maybe rent a good apartment, but you can't hide ALL your coin ALL the time.

Housed employees, noble or Merchant, would definitely have a "safe(ER)" place to put their things, and this would make it much more difficult to be an indy.

I like it.  What about the Byn?

Well, what do you think they keep beneath the latrines?