On "Bad Guys"

[Patuk]

Well, that's a matter of perspective, with perspective being whether you're part of my tribe or not.

Indeed.

You're still going to make life a bitch for the world's population at large, though.

[ShaLeah]

Well, that's a matter of perspective, with perspective being whether you're part of my tribe or not.

Indeed.

You're still going to make life a bitch for the world's population at large, though.

I think the best appropriate way to play an evilish decent guy is to only have a heart for anyone of your racial gene pool and fear loathing and general disgust for anything not your race. It would allow you to give that human beggar that skin, or buy fruit from that whiny girl, yet kick that breed out of your way or eye that elf like he's gonna steal your shit, cause he probably is.

I've only played a couple of evil bitches, I'm no good at being all evil all the time. It's something I actually work on. It took a long time for me to actually  be okay with the racism having had to deal with it in real life.

[Fujikoma]

What may on the surface appear "Kind-hearted" is not always so, and the instant gain or loss coming from an act is no way to judge its value. That good deed you just witnessed may be a ploy to earn your trust and make you think this guy is not one of "those guys", or failing that make you underestimate them which can provide a wealth of benefit if used correctly. The plan needn't have an immediate or even eventual outcome, but be an open-ended tangle of threads to be yanked or loosened as needed. The picture sort of paints itself and you just coast along, not so much need for conscious planning, there's so much of your brain you're possibly impeding by not letting it do its thing, or at least, that's how my brain seems to work.

That's right, just let it happen, happy little trees.

Ever feigned a weakness or injury with the intent to knock someone in a place not so pleasant once they got close enough to press their advantage? Pretended to befriend an enemy over a long time period just so you could learn how to REALLY hurt them? And then sometimes, you shrug and say, "Meh... Revenge doesn't really seem as productive as having this person around." (Is that when they sneak up and kick you in the pair?). Some things work well when you convince yourself of your own deception, then one day turn around and say, "Oh yeah! That's what this was about." *sets fire to friend/enemy's dog*. "I don't know man? I turned my back and next thing you know spot jumped into the fireplace, I was alerted by the smell of burning hair." (Don't put living things in the fire, it's mean.)

Some can look at a chessboard and plan every move out ahead of time, given sufficient brain power and knowing your opponent well, but even then things will happen that cause you to re-analyze your first intentions, making you have to go over it again and again. It could be done (just not by me), but in one of the books I own it states that there are certain positions, especially in the opening game, that are simply good moves and follow solid principles of playing without looking all the way to the endgame and thinking "Oh, I know where all these pawns will be and I'll be up three of them and a rook if I put my bishop here.". If an opening presents itself, or a move is made that implies a threat in the not so distant future, you begin to plan accordingly for how all your pieces occupying certain positions can be mobilized for offense and defense and thinking about which side would be better to castle on. The book, by, Irving Chernec, I think, Logical Chess or something... I still need to finish it, got through the kingside attack section and there's SO much more.

I could be very wrong about how to play chess, I admit I'm not all that good, especially since I haven't played in a while and am a little rusty. Just my thoughts on what seems like "altruism" and "weakness".

EDIT: Just wanted to mention, I'm not thinking of people as pieces, to me the pieces represent actions and words. If it's a me against the world perspective, then my end of the board has a single pawn (thats me!) approaching a full board on the other side that he can't see, not a good scenario.

[chrisdcoulombe]

My first "bad guy" Was lawful evil. 
Embracing the evil by extorting elves and getting them sent to jail.  If I could do it again I would have been more evil. 

Those that you are against hate and fear your character, but generally the people that  are with you on your side love and respect your character.

For me the burn Tuluk to the ground sorcerer is out of reach, but the sacrifice people on an alter evil is in the realm achievable.  If your character has a goal and thats what they are then thats just what they would do.  Playing the villain can be exhilarating and I highly recommend coming out of your comfort zone and try it.  Remember Murder, corruption and betrayal.   

[Barzalene]

My first "bad guy" Was lawful evil. 
Embracing the evil by extorting elves and getting them sent to jail.  If I could do it again I would have been more evil. 

Those that you are against hate and fear your character, but generally the people that  are with you on your side love and respect your character.

For me the burn Tuluk to the ground sorcerer is out of reach, but the sacrifice people on an alter evil is in the realm achievable.  If your character has a goal and thats what they are then thats just what they would do.  Playing the villain can be exhilarating and I highly recommend coming out of your comfort zone and try it.  Remember Murder, corruption and betrayal.   

I loved that pc. I didn't find him evil at all. Apart from a lack of uppercase letters.

[chrisdcoulombe]

My first "bad guy" Was lawful evil. 
Embracing the evil by extorting elves and getting them sent to jail.  If I could do it again I would have been more evil. 

Those that you are against hate and fear your character, but generally the people that  are with you on your side love and respect your character.

For me the burn Tuluk to the ground sorcerer is out of reach, but the sacrifice people on an alter evil is in the realm achievable.  If your character has a goal and thats what they are then thats just what they would do.  Playing the villain can be exhilarating and I highly recommend coming out of your comfort zone and try it.  Remember Murder, corruption and betrayal.   

I loved that pc. I didn't find him evil at all. Apart from a lack of uppercase letters.

Lmao, I have improved that a lot.  Not perfect I still make errors, but generally will capitalize and punctuate. 

[chrisdcoulombe]

Thats another part of playing evil.  Don't let everyone know how evil your character actually is.

[Fredd]

My first "bad guy" Was lawful evil. 
Embracing the evil by extorting elves and getting them sent to jail.  If I could do it again I would have been more evil. 

Those that you are against hate and fear your character, but generally the people that  are with you on your side love and respect your character.

For me the burn Tuluk to the ground sorcerer is out of reach, but the sacrifice people on an alter evil is in the realm achievable.  If your character has a goal and thats what they are then thats just what they would do.  Playing the villain can be exhilarating and I highly recommend coming out of your comfort zone and try it.  Remember Murder, corruption and betrayal.   

I loved that pc. I didn't find him evil at all. Apart from a lack of uppercase letters.

Lmao, I have improved that a lot.  Not perfect I still make errors, but generally will capitalize and punctuate. 

Mine was Lawful Evil as well. So much so that I didn't realize he was evil until I got Kudos for being so evil. He was by far my favorite aide.

[Morrolan]

Mine was Lawful Evil as well. So much so that I didn't realize he was evil until I got Kudos for being so evil. He was by far my favorite aide.

Ah, the LE Aide. One of my favorites.

"Aide Amos, please bring me some tea."

"Of course, Lady Snilling. One lump or two?"

"And the one who upset me."

"Of course, Lady Snilling. Will you need to speak with them?"

[Case]

The most terrible character I ever played was offensive to my sensibilities often. Callous regard for others and themselves, entirely glib. They had no real humanity, it was all attempting a facsimile of being such.

They did the most good of any PC I have played on any MUD.

Nobody thinks they are evil if they're sane. There's always something that anchors them, no matter how flawed.

[Kismetic]

Nobody thinks they are evil if they're sane. There's always something that anchors them, no matter how flawed.

Pretty much, yup.

[TheWanderer]

I blame peer pressure. It'll be the downfall of every character that sets out with noble intentions that carry over from our world, but sadly don't follow the views of the majority within Zalanthas, and as to what they'd consider "noble intentions".   "You want me to follow that guy across the city, into his apartment, stab him in the back, and send his rotting corpse to his loved ones? Just 'cause he was talkin' smack? Sure thing! Gotta teach people how things are run around here, amziright?"
*High-fives all around*

[Harmless]

In a world where lives are cheap (out of the ridiculous expense of feeding mouths), when someone dislikes another enough to have them killed, my "bad guys" will rarely think that it'd be worth the risk of displeasing a trusted ally over someone they don't know/like.

[Tyas]

Can be insulting to some to say thieves are bad guys. I am so offended! Wondering though, as a thief you say, could you not steal from other thieves? Something makes me think you could not.

There would not be beggars if there were not people giving them there waterskins. So do not feel bad about this. There are so many characters I come across who do openly sympathise. It is humorous, and gives me a good feeling at what lengths they will go to help. The kindness can hurt too.

Real life example. Praying for people, and that person that is being prayed for, them actually knowing it. Has been shown that they -are- worse off, and it is detrimental to their health. So be mean! Grrr! 

You should never feel as if you are being forced into performing some evil or even good action.

When I played my dwarf I often thought of certain cartoons - the ones where the enemies are robots because the heroes would never kill a human. The Foot Clan in TMNT were robots, so that Leonardo could chop through fifty without any moral qualms. Dwarves should be the same way - to them, other people are only robots that should be used or destroyed when appropriate.

These are great tricks and ways to look at it. But I would only add, hesitantly that it may not be great to openly desensitize yourself like this. Playing this type of character for years or so, you are going to bring some issues over from the game into your life.

Also, being evil or annoying is great for other players. You are doing good! Probably most of the time it is appreciated I would expect. I mean, personally I find it so very enjoyable from both sides. I love meeting and being super characters.

[Asche]

Thanks for the replies, everyone. I don't know, I tend to find the best way I can play characters I would consider 'bad' is to just play the fanatic. "I'm totally dedicated to the Arm, His City and His human citizens. To your average Joe, I'm the nice soldier who won't exploit her patch to mug your purse. To an elf, or a northerner, I'm the xenophobe even by Arm standards who openly despises knife-ears, breeds, and the art-loving, Tek-forsaken northerners. I think it lets me get in my 'good karma,' so I don't feel as terrible after I kick your elf out of my seat. As to whether I'd steal from another thief... I suppose it depends. Obviously, as a human, I'd probably have little problems with it IC. As an elf, I suppose it depends what tribe they're from. OOC... Unless I know your character has plenty, or has wronged me IC, I'd feel pretty terrible about stealing from you. That said, I don't judge people who DO play these roles. I just have difficulty with them. Theres always a little chaotic good in every character I play.

[Asche]

Also, I now need to make Alladin in Allanak. He sings while he springs from rooftop to rooftop. Subguild Bard. "I steal, only what I can't afford~! (And that's everything.)

[Tyas]

As to whether I'd steal from another thief... I suppose it depends. Obviously, as a human, I'd probably have little problems with it IC. As an elf, I suppose it depends what tribe they're from. OOC... Unless I know your character has plenty, or has wronged me IC, I'd feel pretty terrible about stealing from you.

This sounds very much like a yes to me!

Anyway, I am reading into that you are also more okay when you are considering it as, "Revenge!" or "Racism!" or "Hate!" or "Envy!" You sound more than capable of evil than you are giving yourself credit for. Perhaps you are okay yet!

Me speculating here is making me feel more than slightly

[solera]

I tried to make an amoral PC once to see what path she would take. She was totally self centred and self respect was the most important thing in her life. She was a petty thief, if she saw anything she fancied that was safe to take , she would automatically take it. Her lockermate's food, something fancy from a clanny's body, a small amount of sids off the merchants table. 
The badness didn't really go anywhere though, as the survival instinct took over...she was a coward when facing authorities.
She was uninterested in people, but it was part of her job to take notice and her work was very important to her,so she sat at the bar and talked to them.
A breed was very important to her as the shield that could save her precious skin, though this probably looked different from the outside too.
I think she was the PC I liked the least...I missed having good feelings towards even one person...well, maybe one PC did almost get through her shell, despite all my good intentions. I was very sad to lose the clan and her skilz when she got killed by wildlife, but I was happy that she wasn't in my life any more.
I think I'll  stick with PC's that just hang out with the baddies hoping for a few crumbs. Or ones that just "evolve".

[Kismetic]

Also, I now need to make Alladin in Allanak. He sings while he springs from rooftop to rooftop. Subguild Bard. "I steal, only what I can't afford~! (And that's everything.)

I laughed.

[Bogre]

I've played a lot of amoral characters and a swath of straight up bastards. Those who wouldn't mind knocking you over the head to get what they want, those who don't act polite for the sake of it, and some for who crime was an enjoyment, a thrill, or for one of my dwarves, a focus. Most of my 'bad guys' are just 'not nice people', rather than evil hearted SOB's. I haven't ever done truly evil on Arm.

I did play one particularly malevolent person, with a real penchant for vengeance and cruelty, on another mud, and it was great fun. He ended up being an anti-hero to some extent after a good 14 months or so of playing him.


Don't worry, though. My next Arm character idea is going to be a bad, bad Leeroy Brown.

[KankWhisperer]

The few times when my characters would try and kill people was to enforce the rules or authority. It may have seemed evil to whoever was getting chased down. My characters usually would see it as actually saving future people by setting an example of the consequences of inappropriate social behavior.

[Tyas]

Also, I now need to make Alladin in Allanak. He sings while he springs from rooftop to rooftop. Subguild Bard. "I steal, only what I can't afford~! (And that's everything.)

I laughed.

I wish you good luck in the search to find your own Princess Jasmine!

[Vwest]

Also, I now need to make Alladin in Allanak. He sings while he springs from rooftop to rooftop. Subguild Bard. "I steal, only what I can't afford~! (And that's everything.)

I laughed.

I wish you good luck in the search to find your own Princess Jasmine!

There's one on every street corner.

[Kismetic]

Also, I now need to make Alladin in Allanak. He sings while he springs from rooftop to rooftop. Subguild Bard. "I steal, only what I can't afford~! (And that's everything.)

I laughed.

I wish you good luck in the search to find your own Princess Jasmine!

There's one on every street corner.

Ugh, who needs Jasmine, when you can find a magical djinn, instead?

[AmandaGreathouse]

Also, I now need to make Alladin in Allanak. He sings while he springs from rooftop to rooftop. Subguild Bard. "I steal, only what I can't afford~! (And that's everything.)

I laughed.

I wish you good luck in the search to find your own Princess Jasmine!

There's one on every street corner.

Ugh, who needs Jasmine, when you can find a magical djinn, instead?

Protip:

Not all djinn grant wishes.


LOLOLOLOL

Actually, to keep this on topic (I had the thing open to post, then left and came back, thinking it was the RAT thread):

The best villains are the ones you don't expect, the ones who are always justified, or the ones who are zealots.

The only type of truly three dimensional villains I've seen all have the following in common: They are the hero of their own story. They genuinely believe that either what they are doing is the right thing, or that the ends justify the means.