Elves being crew on silt skimmers, airships, and submarines

[Withered Ocotillo]

So recently I've heard that elves aren't allowed to ride silt skimmers for reasons unknown.

I am quite confused by this, as I have always assumed that elves did not ride mounts because their legs were considered far more capable of getting an elf from point A to point B. There is a pride in being able to run. There may be cultural pride in this being a tradition or sport passed on through the years.

I am not quite getting it how an elf would feel compelled not to ride a silt skimmer, or be mocked by his peers/family, because he decided to be brave enough to risk death in the silt sea by becoming a silt sailor. Maybe if the elf powered the silt skimmer while running on a treadmill, this would be an acceptable form of transportation? What if there were airships in Zalanthas? Would an elf also be mocked for flying in an airship because pride demands he run on the clouds as an alternative? What if water and oceans returned to Zalanthas? Would an elf never be able to cross the ocean because they'd have to go on a boat?

Elven whirans have flown around in the game and this has been accepted as normal for elves.

I feel that the elven taboo on riding mounts makes some sense regarding the elven nomadic history and their physical prowess at running long distances. But being forbidden from silt skimmers, airships, and whatever else, seems to be taking this limitation way too far and completely misses the point of why the elven taboo exists in the first place.

What are your thoughts on this?

[Morrolan]

I think it should be fine if the point is to go somewhere one can't go by land. But not if one were moving from one land-point to another (say, traveling from one dock to another along the same shore).

But this is one where staff will need to weigh in.

[Riya OniSenshi]

The search function is your friend.

This has come up countless times - here's a few relevant threads, some of which staff have commented on:
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,39620.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,35327.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,35325.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,39609.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,35326.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,39640.msg554269.html#msg554269

And that's just from the first page.
Many of the answers to your questions are contained within.

[BleakOne]

The general impression I get as to why they don't do it is that in their minds, ride and 'be passenger' are pretty much the same thing to them. To ride on a skimmer, ect, would be to admit that their legs are too 'weak' to carry them to where they want, blah blah blah and such.

As for people who have some innate ability to fly, well, I guess that counts as them indeed 'running' to where they want to be.

It's not perfect, but at the moment it's the way it is. Until it changes, at least.

[RogueGunslinger]

This is something I never agree with staff on. City-elves should be able to run, imo.

[Fujikoma]

Personally I figured skimmers would be ok at first because it's not animal powered, people have to push off with skimmer poles, climb the rigging, trim the sails, all that good stuff. Figured if the elf was at least participating in a group effort it would be ok. But I guess since the elf can't do it all by herself she'll have to settle for a canoe, with special attachments so she can row with her feet.

[Molten Heart]

Maybe it'd be okay if they were stealing it.

[X-D]

Or maybe elves are just smart enough to not get on one of them things.

[Fujikoma]

Bah. I've read these threads and the arguments against either don't make sense to me or they link to a bazillion other arguments against it that don't make sense to me. It would be nice if the helpfiles for city elf roleplay and such included some mention of skimmers and how one tribal elder fell off a skimmer one day so nobody rides them. Meanwhile countless elves have either been executed or now have the nickname stumpy from getting caught thieving too much, but it was GLORIOUS...

At least put it out in the open so the notion doesn't occur to people and they get their hopes up only to be kicked in the face later. It's very disappointing to spend several days thinking about how cool the concept is and someone comes and slaps it out of your hands and it shatters on the ground and they say "Nope! Should have picked through ancient forum threads before you went to daydreaming!". I typed help elf, help city elf, help city elf roleplay... I seriously got no hint about that. Is it ok to dangle from a rope on the side of the skimmer shouting directions and consider it leading a load bearing beast?

[spicemustflow]

It doesn't make sense but there you have it. We had discussions about it, staff have their own opinion (wrong, but they're human). So just stay away from skimmers if you're an elf.

[musashi]

I wish elves could ride skimmers too.

The way I read the docs when I first read about elves and not riding, I believe it was written as "Elves refuse to let another creature bear their weight". So I thought: No mounts? Got it. No wagons or argosies or chariots pulled by mounts ... got it.

A skimmer? It's an object you step on. If an elf refused to let a skimmer bear their weight, how about the second story of a building? Or their boots? Or the ground they're running on. None of those things be alive and if you're piloting the skimmer and working the sails and and rudder well then you're moving by your own locomotion and effort every bit as much as if you were running/flying/sneaking/whatever.

But like others have said, it is what it is. Elves don't get on skimmers. *shrug*

[BleakOne]

Maybe elves secretly know they're in a game, and refuse to be on something codedly similar to an argosy? 

Joking of course. 

[Case]

apartments in luirs

[Lizzie]

I don't get it or agree with it either. It seems pretty arbitrary to me. I mean - if they can't ride on skimmers because it's a matter of pride that their legs carry them where they do...

then they shouldn't be capable of flying either. Because when you're flying, your legs aren't doing a damned thing. You're being carried by the wind itself. Your feet aren't even touching a plank of wood, let alone the ground.

But since it's okay and acceptable for an elf to fly around using the wind as their vehicle, without their legs and feet touching -anything at all- then it makes the "no silt skimming" rule seem just very very arbitrary.

[Fujikoma]

Not to argue with someone who is speaking in favor of something I am in favor of, but... What I was reading seemed to imply that using magic to fly (as long as it was your own magic) was moving by your own power, much like running, while somehow a skimmer isn't, being a group effort to harness the wind. I'd think elves were about group effort, being tribal and all, but I don't really know because I think you'd have to start off in Tuluk or the Rinth to find out IC without any karma, from what I gather. Maybe their independent streak runs so deep they go out hunting or stealing alone, but return with the fruits of their labor to supply their tribe?

Does that mean you can't borrow someone else's tent?

I'm really having trouble understanding.

Telling a city elf they can't do that because they can't trust a skimmer crew is like telling them they can't join the Byn because they might be intentionally killed in the sparring hall, or drug out into the desert for a "contract" until they get too tired to run and gutted. I don't think it'd be likely, but hey, it could happen.

[Nyr]

Actually, the magick thing was brought up and discussed previously and already posted about about 4 years ago (I think).  Elves could certainly move with their own magickal assistance; they would not move with the magickal assistance of others, though.

At some point in the documentation/website migration, this section was removed from the helpfile for elves:

The differences between city elves and desert elves are only the result
of their differing lifestyles--there is only one elven race.

and

In other words, elves will never ride on
mounts or in wagons, as to do so would be to insult one of the few
things they are proud of: their natural speed and endurance on the run.

I've gone ahead and added those two sections back and added in "skimmers" for the second bit.

It's not a matter of trusting the crew, but a matter of pride in their running.

edited to fix that last line, it's not a matter of "trusting" their legs

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

From what I gather, elves refuse to ride because they take pride in being able to walk or run long distances (apparently not enough to keep up with everyones' beetles but assumingly better than other races on foot?) which other races cannot. I thought that this was more of a 'this is one way my race is the best race' thing, than anything else, if it is even anything else.

The thing with the silt skimmers is, no race, elves either, can walk on silt, and would be a moron to try. Anyone can attempt to walk down the North Road. That's why I think it should be fine for elves to get on the skimmers. No one can walking on the freaking silt. Or we can do a thing where elves apparently don't care because they're all Tolkein-style prideful assholes with their chin upraised and a bored look on their face all the time.

[Nyr]

A parallel culturally would be the Dothraki tribal humans in A Song of Ice and Fire.  They don't trust salt water because their horses can't drink from it.  Ergo, they do not sail.  Ergo, they are no threat to people across the Sea.  Obviously, they're full of crap--you can sail on water.  (As a side note, at least some of them do eventually change their minds, which is beside the point--they ones that change are exceptions to the Martin documentation for Dothraki, and given explicit approval.)

[Patuk]

Actually, the magick thing was brought up and discussed previously and already posted about about 4 years ago (I think).  Elves could certainly move with their own magickal assistance; they would not move with the magickal assistance of others, though.

If this holds true, I could see an elf riding a skimmer if he did so on his lonesome, or with his tribesmen and nobody else, perhaps.

[Nyr]

Actually, the magick thing was brought up and discussed previously and already posted about about 4 years ago (I think).  Elves could certainly move with their own magickal assistance; they would not move with the magickal assistance of others, though.

If this holds true, I could see an elf riding a skimmer if he did so on his lonesome, or with his tribesmen and nobody else, perhaps.

How?

[Patuk]

Actually, the magick thing was brought up and discussed previously and already posted about about 4 years ago (I think).  Elves could certainly move with their own magickal assistance; they would not move with the magickal assistance of others, though.

If this holds true, I could see an elf riding a skimmer if he did so on his lonesome, or with his tribesmen and nobody else, perhaps.

How?

Same way they can move around using magicks?

[Nyr]

I might be missing what you are meaning, but what does the tribe/being alone have to do with it?  It is not the elf's own two legs propelling her through the Silt.  They are on a skimmer.

[Nyr]

Obviously, the solution is paddleboats.

[MeTekillot]

Foot powered paddleboats

[Nyr]

Still, it has been 4 years since we last discussed it staff-side; I put up a new thread on it.