Recent Issues I've Seen With The Great Merchant Houses

[Kismetic]

I've been in a GMH and had no problem pulling in recruits.
I've been a Byn Sergeant twice and had no problem pulling in recruits.
I've been many independents and had no problem getting people to follow me to the unknown.

Its the leader.

If you don't have players in your GMH, its probably you.

I never had much of a problem recruiting in any of the leadership roles I've earned or taken.  The problem is always the seemingly normal people you hire turning into crazed weirdos because ...  who knows why any of you do what you do?  It's such a burnout feeling never finding more than a few lasting permanents.

Where have all the cowboys gone?  

I definitely think clan retention is the biggest issue, and the sheer number of indies (by virtue of having the largest number of clan immortals) doesn't seem that much of a problem.  It's more likely that you played in a clan, died in two weeks, and are either jaded on clans after a number of go-rounds, or you don't want to join the same clan twice in a row.  Or something like that.

Is that an accurate assessment?

[BleakOne]

Yeah, new members of clans have an appalingly high mortality rate. Between deaths actually doing their job, deserters, people who get in trouble with The Law, people who simply vanish and hilarious accidents, it's a tough job keeping folks alive.

Worth it though, for the lucky and/or skilled few who make it.

I have a lot of respect for clan leaders. It's hard work, but I've had the good fortune of having only good experiences under clan leaders I have played with.

[Kismetic]

It's hard work, but I've had the good fortune of having only good experiences under clan leaders I have played with.

I think I have, too.  I'm trying to think of anyone who really ruined my day, and I can only think of one instance that was seemingly OOC in nature, and it was a situation that fortunately closed the books on the offending character.

I think if a leader is giving effort, then it's all pretty good.  Some people like chocolate, some people like vanilla, but we can usually dig what you're cooking.

[racurtne]

Yeah, new members of clans have an appalingly high mortality rate. Between deaths actually doing their job, deserters, people who get in trouble with The Law, people who simply vanish and hilarious accidents, it's a tough job keeping folks alive.

Worth it though, for the lucky and/or skilled few who make it.

I have a lot of respect for clan leaders. It's hard work, but I've had the good fortune of having only good experiences under clan leaders I have played with.

Daww. This makes me happy. All the way back from when you were shiny and new.

[BleakOne]

Yeah, new members of clans have an appalingly high mortality rate. Between deaths actually doing their job, deserters, people who get in trouble with The Law, people who simply vanish and hilarious accidents, it's a tough job keeping folks alive.

Worth it though, for the lucky and/or skilled few who make it.

I have a lot of respect for clan leaders. It's hard work, but I've had the good fortune of having only good experiences under clan leaders I have played with.

Daww. This makes me happy. All the way back from when you were shiny and new.

Fun times.  

[gfair]

There's a few things going on that are contributing to this, I suspect

- There are far fewer open clans than there used to be. I remember days in the game years back when there were clan members from Borsail, Oash, Tor, Salarr, Fale, the Templarate, Legion, the Atrium, the Guild, the Tor Academy, plus the Byn... all at the same time.  Magicker PCs used to get hired by houses. Every Noble needed Aides to carry out his business.  And in addition to the houses, there were the tribes. ATV and Soh, Gypsies, Kurac. People were everywhere in the known.  And that doesn't even include Tuluki tribes, the smaller Human tribes, and player-created Tribes.

And then people started complaining about a sparse population and over time that viewpoint has been accepted, to the point that now a lot of the remote tribes are closed and there is a concerted effort to concentrate the playerbase so people will be bored less.  It is at once both better and worse; the diversity has gone down, but there are always people to interact with.  

- The introduction of jobs: selling dung, salt, obsidian, glass, lumber.  A bad month doing anything else as an independent can still be a highly profitable one thanks to grebbing.  That wasn't always the case.  Lean times seem to be a thing of the past.  And grebbing always pays immediately, no waiting 30 actual RL days to get a 600 sid salary when you could earn 4x that as an independent.

[burble]

Day 1 sparring with a dummy: emotes galore.
Day 2 sparring with a dummy: uhh..ok, throw out an emote or two.
Day 3 sparring with a dummy: Sudoku in the other window
Day 4 Rebel - at this point I honestly did not care if the clan killed that pc, I just wasn't going to solo spar anymore.

That's why I don't join GMH's. If I do, the pc will already be trained.

The land around the large cities belongs to the kings and nobles, not GMH's. So why do you think GMH's should be policing it?
A lot of indies hunt for lord fancypants or his minions anyway.

A lot of posts claim roughing up these indies will create conflict. Sure, but I disagree with your assumption that it is fun.
Some people like PvE, others like PvP, some people like physical violence in their game, others want a Tuluki fashion walk off.
You can't control what people enjoy.

Find a carrot, not stick.
Some ideas that might make GMH's more interesting:
1. Bring back "Clan Who", gives clans a strong advantage. You practically have it with the gdb clan boards and seeing who is online anyway. This way it wouldn't have that icky ooc feeling to it.
2. GMHs could have some apartments set aside for their employees (not in the compound but actual apartments). Beats waiting in line for one to come open and I think having an apartment and decking it out is what drives most indies anyway.
3. Give Salarri and Kadians their own outpost somewhere?

[Cutthroat]

The carrot in this case, in my opinion, is that GMH membership (and clan membership in general, really) gives greater access to plots and the potential to be involved in things that being independent simply will not provide in most cases.

Players may enjoy playing strings of short-lived indie characters, or clanned characters whose players get bored and end up doing whatever they want, and that's fine. We all play this game to have fun, after all. They just wouldn't have the right to complain about not being able to fit in and join plots with other PCs, since that actually does take time, patience, being somewhat careful, and often, joining a clan.

[Lizzie]

The carrot in this case, in my opinion, is that GMH membership (and clan membership in general, really) gives greater access to plots and the potential to be involved in things that being independent simply will not provide in most cases.

Players may enjoy playing strings of short-lived indie characters, or clanned characters whose players get bored and end up doing whatever they want, and that's fine. We all play this game to have fun, after all. They just wouldn't have the right to complain about not being able to fit in and join plots with other PCs, since that actually does take time, patience, being somewhat careful, and often, joining a clan.

I find that your supposition used to be the case (GMH membership gives greater access to plots and potential that indies don't have). I find, however, that it is no longer true. I have been involved in MORE plotlines by AVOIDING membership in GMHs, than I have in being a member of one. And in one case, I was involved -despite- membership, and not -because- of it.

Unless of course by "involved" and "plotlines" you mean "having to deal with in-house stupidity created by drama-queens who create drama just so that they can be the center of attention, and not because they actually have anything important to contribute."

[Booya]

I think at least leader PCs should have clan who. They have enough to do without having to waste time trying to find minds of logged-off people when they're trying to involve/use their minions.

[Delirium]

I think at least leader PCs should have clan who. They have enough to do without having to waste time trying to find minds of logged-off people when they're trying to involve/use their minions.

I like this. Explain it how you want: leaders having greater access to clan reports and checkins from v/npcs, whatever.

[Bogre]

If your IC goal is to be the richest badass in the known for a couple of RL weeks, you're better off playing an indie.

This is more how I see it.

This. People like being rich and making coins, but no one remembers your forgettable and uninteresting character. Independents rarely qualify for the sought-after designation of badass. I don't care if you know how to ride your beetle out to some plant that makes money.

Who are the characters you hear about time and time again- who have pictures drawn of them? Clan members. I can probably name 10+ characters from each GMH on the spot. I'd be hard pressed to remember any one of your 'slim, agafari-haired mens' as independents.

[Red Ranger]

This. People like being rich and making coins, but no one remembers your forgettable and uninteresting character. Independents rarely qualify for the sought-after designation of badass. I don't care if you know how to ride your beetle out to some plant that makes money.

Who are the characters you hear about time and time again- who have pictures drawn of them? Clan members. I can probably name 10+ characters from each GMH on the spot. I'd be hard pressed to remember any one of your 'slim, agafari-haired mens' as independents.

Medichi, Khann, and Garrick still agree!

Medichi, Khann, Garrick, and all the other legendary movers and shakers of the gameworld agree.  The average PC doesn't live very long.  Some manage to get wealthy during that inevitably short period of time, but that doesn't mean that they were Important.  In the ossified societies of Zalanthas, mere personal wealth does not equal importance, influence, or power.  To me it's as though IRL you could get rich quickly off of digging for gold in minefields with your friends, but that gold won't make you a Senator or a CEO or the chief of police even if it transiently makes your checking account larger than theirs, and it's inevitable that you're gonna get blown to bits soon on one of your gold digs.  Of course every player plays for different reasons and derives fun from different in-game activities, and maybe the majority of players have an OOC goal of a large IC bank account, but we seem to be focusing on those IC lunatics that keep going out into the minefield.

I'm personally unopposed to the GMHs adding more mines to the minefield.

[Barzalene]

I've been in a GMH and had no problem pulling in recruits.
I've been a Byn Sergeant twice and had no problem pulling in recruits.
I've been many independents and had no problem getting people to follow me to the unknown.

Its the leader.

If you don't have players in your GMH, its probably you.

I read this and thought : ouch. I've been on all sides of this.

I keep thinking about it though and I have a few things to say on the matter. There are ways minions can help leaders to be the leaders they want.

Keep your eyes open and report back.
Talk about what is needed to provide more fun.
Don't be afraid to reopen discussions, if you can do it without being an ass and making your leader feel their authority is threatened.

By that I mean lets say your recruit wants to go hunt alone
Your leader says no. Chances are that's not a unilateral decision. (This is just hypothetical, and may not apply to any particular house policy. ) maybe no has to do with having been yelled at last week when recruit Jim bob died in a tragic threshing incident just outside the merchant gate in an accident involving a tregil.) instead of deciding your leader sucks, give them a day to think about it then mention your superior byn training, your special tregil sword, the trip your friends are making and the dwindling meat supply and ask if they can't look into an exception.

If you see a plot line they are missing keep giving them the info they need to get involved.

Hey if I suck as a leader, I need to own that, but very few people take sponsored roles intending to suck. Help me or that other guy to be an excellent leader. That may require a bit of tact on your part, but it's probably worth the effort.  

[Lizzie]

By that I mean lets say your recruit wants to go hunt alone
Your leader says no. Chances are that's not a unilateral decision. (This is just hypothetical, and may not apply to any particular house policy. ) maybe no has to do with having been yelled at last week when recruit Jim bob died in a tragic threshing incident just outside the merchant gate in an accident involving a tregil.) instead of deciding your leader sucks, give them a day to think about it then mention your superior byn training, your special tregil sword, the trip your friends are making and the dwindling meat supply and ask if they can't look into an exception.

If you see a plot line they are missing keep giving them the info they need to get involved.

Okay let's say that. Except - make sure you wait three RL days to ask, because that's how long it takes to finally get in touch with your clan leader, at a time when he has time to spend actually talking to you, and not on his way to "do something important" or just about to log out or recruiting another clan mate or inbetween classes and only has 3 minutes to RP and wants to know about some other thing and really doesn't want to invest that three minutes listening to you ask your question, let alone answering it.

So you've already been sitting there for 3 RL days, spam-sparring with the dummy and hanging out in the bar where you aren't actually buying anything because you are a recruit and don't get paid yet.

So he says no, on that third day. Wait a day before seeing if they can't look into an exception. But - again - you're waiting three days, not one. So it's been almost a RL week of you hanging out in the bar not spending any money, and spam-sparring with the dummy. And maybe taking your mount out of your clan stable to practice riding, which you're really REALLY good at when you're riding inside the city on paved roads, you never EVER fail, so you can't ever EVER improve. Which is to say - you still suck at it, and you'll continue to suck at it, until they allow you out.

Then on that last day - the 6th day - he says "hm - let me get back to you on that, I'll think it over." And by the time you're sure he's finally come around to let you go hunting alone, his player has stored him - or his RL schedule changes and he no longer can log in when you're logged in. Or his character gets killed. Or you've just said fuck it and have been going out alone anyway because you're just sick of waiting.

I've found it much more productive to simply not ask if I can go out alone. That way they can't tell me no.

[Barzalene]

By that I mean lets say your recruit wants to go hunt alone
Your leader says no. Chances are that's not a unilateral decision. (This is just hypothetical, and may not apply to any particular house policy. ) maybe no has to do with having been yelled at last week when recruit Jim bob died in a tragic threshing incident just outside the merchant gate in an accident involving a tregil.) instead of deciding your leader sucks, give them a day to think about it then mention your superior byn training, your special tregil sword, the trip your friends are making and the dwindling meat supply and ask if they can't look into an exception.

If you see a plot line they are missing keep giving them the info they need to get involved.

Okay let's say that. Except - make sure you wait three RL days to ask, because that's how long it takes to finally get in touch with your clan leader, at a time when he has time to spend actually talking to you, and not on his way to "do something important" or just about to log out or recruiting another clan mate or inbetween classes and only has 3 minutes to RP and wants to know about some other thing and really doesn't want to invest that three minutes listening to you ask your question, let alone answering it.

So you've already been sitting there for 3 RL days, spam-sparring with the dummy and hanging out in the bar where you aren't actually buying anything because you are a recruit and don't get paid yet.

So he says no, on that third day. Wait a day before seeing if they can't look into an exception. But - again - you're waiting three days, not one. So it's been almost a RL week of you hanging out in the bar not spending any money, and spam-sparring with the dummy. And maybe taking your mount out of your clan stable to practice riding, which you're really REALLY good at when you're riding inside the city on paved roads, you never EVER fail, so you can't ever EVER improve. Which is to say - you still suck at it, and you'll continue to suck at it, until they allow you out.

Then on that last day - the 6th day - he says "hm - let me get back to you on that, I'll think it over." And by the time you're sure he's finally come around to let you go hunting alone, his player has stored him - or his RL schedule changes and he no longer can log in when you're logged in. Or his character gets killed. Or you've just said fuck it and have been going out alone anyway because you're just sick of waiting.

I've found it much more productive to simply not ask if I can go out alone. That way they can't tell me no.

Oh you're absolutely right. It's much more effective to greet every attempt at addressing issues with skepticism and negativity. We should just put you in charge. We'll play the game as you envision it and like it or leave it. Clearly that would be best.

[Nyr]

I tend to agree with Barzalene here.  Lizzie, dropping in here with that kind of attitude towards this isn't helping anything.  If you can't contribute anything more than negativity, don't contribute.

[Lizzie]

Oh you're absolutely right. It's much more effective to greet every attempt at addressing issues with skepticism and negativity. We should just put you in charge. We'll play the game as you envision it and like it or leave it. Clearly that would be best.

I don't think you're addressing any of the issues. I think a lot of posts I'm reading are filled with surface fixes to a deeper issue. I'm seeing that "one rule fits all" doesn't fit all, doesn't work. You -cannot- apply all the clan rules uniformly with both clans that have a full crew with seasoned players who know how to "be" hunters/merchants/whatever elses, vs. a clan with only one or two members, who are new to the game, vs. a clan with only one or two members, who are seasoned veterans who know how to "be" hunters/merchants/whatever.

And because the rules can't work uniformly, they shouldn't be rules. Guidelines, absolutely. "We prefer that our recruits not venture out alone, HOWEVER recruits who have come into the House with a solid understanding of life outside the city, might go out within the confines of the general territory (north, south, scrub, etc), OR they may go out with hunters from "this or that" clan, with whom we share a cordial relationship."

Or "recruits who can't craft worth shit cannot keep what they sell, because they're using all our materials and running us out at a rapid pace. HOWEVER - recruits who have come to the clan with their own tools, and have brought with them a solid basic understanding of the craft they're seeking to do, may sell up to 5 items per week in a shop that is NOT our own - and keep 10% of the profits of those sales."

Or "recruits who are using their own mounts and covering their own expenses when they go hunting, may sell off ALL of the raw materials that the house doesn't have a standing order for or hasn't specifically asked to collect."

Or "recruits who have proven that they can venture out without getting killed in their first (game) month of clan life, may begin drawing a modest salary of 50 sids per RL week, plus stable fees if they go to a place that doesn't have a house stable. OR - if they prefer, they may have access to a crappy private apartment in the seedier side of the city, rented by the House for employees."

The rules as they were last time I had access to them (which was after they were all changed), were very stifling, and encouraged general isolation, in clans that didn't have a full compliment of crew members. No one wants to be that ONE member of a clan anymore - and the risk of being that one member is pretty high.

[Nyr]

I imagine that GMH leaders have the freedom to discuss issues and ideas like that with their staff.

[Desertman]

Lizzie's concerns.

It seems like most of your concerns have to do with being under a shit clan leader unfortunately. We've all been there. Yes it sucks.

The solution is to not join that clan until they replace that leader. Perhaps even "replace" them yourself?

I've done this a few times, "This guy is hot garbage. I don't know how he got promoted. I'm not making any profits under his shit leadership. Welcome to the axe blade shit leader, I'm next in line for your position." That is completely IC. If this person is standing in the way of you and your character's goals. Make them no longer an obstacle.

If the clan leader isn't logging in/not playing for any meaningful amount of time, you might even submit a report to the clan staff letting them know that the person who accepted their special application role isn't living up to their end of the bargain that is usually tagged onto the role call. "Must be able to play regularly."

While Lizzie could have been more "gentle" with her delivery, I don't think her concerns are invalid. I've played under those conditions and they do suck, but I don't think the conditions are necessarily a result of bad GMH policies, but have more to do with just having the bad luck of getting a bad leader.

If it is a House Family member, keep off'ing those suckers until one gets approved for play that does their job.  

[Barzalene]

Lizzie's concerns.

It seems like most of your concerns have to do with being under a shit clan leader unfortunately. We've all been there. Yes it sucks.

The solution is to not join that clan until they replace that leader. Perhaps even "replace" them yourself?

I've done this a few times, "This guy is hot garbage. I don't know how he got promoted. I'm not making any profits under his shit leadership. Welcome to the axe blade shit leader, I'm next in line for your position." That is completely IC. If this person is standing in the way of you and your character's goals. Make them no longer an obstacle.

If the clan leader isn't logging in/not playing for any meaningful amount of time, you might even submit a report to the clan staff letting them know that the person who accepted their special application role isn't living up to their end of the bargain that is usually tagged onto the role call. "Must be able to play regularly."

While Lizzie could have been more "gentle" with her delivery, I don't think her concerns are invalid. I've played under those conditions and they do suck, but I don't think the conditions are necessarily a result of bad GMH policies, but have more to do with just having the bad luck of getting a bad leader.

If it is a House Family member, keep off'ing those suckers until one gets approved for play that does their job.  

Definitely my suggestion isn't the great fix for all problems. What you say has validity. It might be the fix for some problems. If you see another player is making a good faith effort to do well as a leader but not succeeding there could be a benefit to reaching out to help them get there.

[Dalmeth]

I may be in the minority, but I've commonly given my clan authorities the big "F-U" when their rules interfere with the purpose of the clan.  When I need materials, when I need information, I get them any way I can.

And that's the trick.  So long as you provide help to your other clan members, you can get away with a lot.

Also, never getting caught in the act helps a bunch.

[Twilight]

I may be in the minority, but I've commonly given my clan authorities the big "F-U" when their rules interfere with the purpose of the clan.  When I need materials, when I need information, I get them any way I can.

And that's the trick.  So long as you provide help to your other clan members, you can get away with a lot.

Also, never getting caught in the act helps a bunch.

As long as it is IC for the character, great fun.  If its just the player not getting what they need, meh.

Seems a lot comes down to players not liking the recruit period rules.  And in reading this post, seems like a lot of folks want to play their GMH employees just like they do their independents.  This seems odd to me.

The same flexibility necessary to play a human vs elf vs half-elf vs dwarf vs mul vs half-giant, or to play what can be a more limited role like a magicker, is the same flexibility needed here.  Perhaps its a different mindset to how you approach the character, like with the different races.  Perhaps it is coming up with creative ways to make the role fun, like it often is with a magicker, slave, ISO tribe memeber or other roles in inherent limitations.

[Malken]

I think one of the problem ignored is that more and more players are becoming "veterans" of Armageddon. There's a much larger pool of players who now understand exactly what to do and where to go to get their skills up, make a lot of money and which areas to avoid to survive longer, and since the world is very static (economy wise, where "mobs" pop up, where the danger tend to be at), there's probably a lot less need for players to be in GMH's to "survive".

Water is only rare and prized in the docs, not so much in game, the same goes with food..

I think that nowadays, people who play in GMHs tend to go in them for the role itself more than out of need, both for the character and the player. They do so because they WANT to be a Salarr crafter, not because they know that it's their best chance of surviving the harsh world.

You have to wake up and say, today, I will create a Salarr crafter. I will make weapons for Salarr and I will be loyal to Salarr. It's very rare that you spot a desperate hunter in game who's willing to take any jobs just to survive. Usually, people create a character who will be a Salarr crafter and then seek out a Salarr player to join.

Today, I will make a Legion soldier, I will seek out a Templar and I will play a soldier who does not mind spending his time within the walls. It's also very rare I think that you'll find a random PC and convince him to join the Legion, unless the clan is already very popular to begin with.

It's very hard to balance out Armageddon.. Jack up the prices insanely for water and remove all outside source of it and you'll see a major shift toward GMHs, but on the other hand, you'll also screw up the off peak players and the ones who want to d-elves and outsiders.

Just some random food for thought here..

[Harmless]

I guess then it all comes down to active leadership.

Right now, there's a lot of active leadership in the independent sector.

Any appeals here made to increase the popularity of GMH should be targeted at getting those skilled leaders back into GMH. However, from where I'm coming from, I prefer those leaders be allowed to do whatever they please, and not feel any pressure from the GDB to join GMH.