Since we feel like talking about Tuluk again.

[Vwest]

No, there is not too much documentation. Some of the documentation needs to be updated and revised, and also merged with the various changes staff have made over the years but haven't been included in the currently available versions. This is, in fact, a work in progress.

I can't comment on 'future docs' or have an opinion on them either way, unfortunately.

Right now, it seems to overwhelm more then a few people, so if the updates are a work in progress then I would hope they are made a little more compact, easily digested and understood.

With more players, there'd be more room for sponsored roles, including Templar PCs. If 2-3 Templar PCs can keep things under such control, imagine what 5 would be able to do even if the overall number of PCs in Tuluk grows significantly.

Who said they needed to be Templars or Nobles?

There is so much room for more variation in Tuluk that if we had the numbers, I would much prefer filling out the middle and lower classes with sponsored leadership roles to offer more options for players to play the characters they want without such a glaring disadvantage. As I said, more 'layers' in the social ladder (ie: PCs) would make the current vision of Tuluk feel much less clunky, to me at least.

I'm not sure what you mean with "one power clique", but it would probably require double the amount of players in the game to double the number of sponsored roles in either city-state.

What I mean is, there aren't enough opposing groups of players for there to be much more then superficial political or power shifts, since any meaningful opposition is easily eliminated because there are no practical PC allies to be had. It's a very blunted way of explaining it, but going into more then that might creep a little too close to IC sensitive and I would rather avoid that as much as possible.

PCs get disappeared for all sorts of reasons in Tuluk. If your experiences have been asinine, perhaps you should look to your PC's behavior. If you still consider the reasons asinine, speak with staff or file a complaint. They keep close track of all sponsored roles and do not tolerate abuse of power.

It seems to be a common response to most 'negative' posts on the forums (I think I'm being more practical and constructive, but... opinions, etc.) that it must be because a player is bitter or unhappy about something that happened to them in-game. The only death I've had in Tuluk was 100% justified and a long time coming - I would have preferred a little more on the emote side of things, but it's a code-based game and you don't always get the flavor you want on the way out the door.

What I'm talking about is people who should have much more impressive things to deal with, sitting around planning the death of a character to 'see if their mate is good in bed'. There are a lot of those types of situations where you're sitting there at the keyboard thinking, 'Don't they have more important things to do? Why is my character risking death in a laundry hamper, spying on the great and powerful... and hearing this of all things?'

I've had some questionable reasons for killing some PCs, but... really? Really?

... things are not as stagnant as you seem to believe, and the conditions have had some changes through the years since the original introduction of the current system.

I wouldn't say so much stagnant as clunky, a lot of things follow a line you would expect and then just... become awkward, it feels like it should be handled by characters who do not exist or would naturally flow in another direction. Instead it goes from lowbrow hunter has dispute with lowbrow crafter... to it becoming serious enough business to warrant Tuluk's social and political elite to get involved.

I've been in the same room when this kind of thing is discussed in-game, where the petty issues between nobody independents is discussed with the weight and severity you would expect from treason or impending invasion. This is the kind of thing that makes Tuluk feel like it has a lot of gaps that need filling, the kind you need to fill with players.

More players filling out the meaty middle instead of ascending to the upper class almost every time would do a lot to eliminate that, but since we don't have the numbers or even enough people inclined to settle into the middle class (and low class / criminal seeming just unwanted from an OOC / design point of view), a simple adjustment to how the powers that be would respond to disputes and happenings with the lower classes would work.

That isn't to say it wouldn't be known or noted, but... would they really care that hunter A wants to pummel hunter B over a harlot? Even in a place like Tuluk that frowns upon the overt, a lot of the things people get caught or called on shouldn't ever be of interest to anyone outside that particular social circle.

Claiming that tavern sitting or spam crafting are the only options available to those who don't "convert" to a specific style is just silly.

If you want the fabled 'Tuluk experience' you need to make a character that fits into a narrow range or convert an existing one, otherwise you just sit on the outside getting the occasional glimpse of what is happening and never really moving beyond the 'drama' fluff that passes the time between really interesting things.

And do it without falling back on the Tuluki fan #1 cop-out of 'they don't get it', as all that does is reinforce my point that if so many people can't puzzle it out, it needs to be adjusted to make it more approachable for everyone.

I have a fantastic time playing in Tuluk because I get it. Its unfortunate that you don't.

[Reiloth]

Vwest: And sorry, you haven't been playing the game long enough to have any perspective. How many PCs have you played in Tuluk? Allanak? The breadth of experience one, two, three pcs can have don't touch the tip of the iceberg that is Tuluk.

Sorry, I don't feel I need to explain a philosophical milestone. If you don't get it, you don't get it. You perceive some problems I agree with, but for the most part, I think it's just ignorance.

[Patuk]

Vwest: And sorry, you haven't been playing the game long enough to have any perspective. How many PCs have you played in Tuluk? Allanak? The breadth of experience one, two, three pcs can have don't touch the tip of the iceberg that is Tuluk.

Sorry, I don't feel I need to explain a philosophical milestone. If you don't get it, you don't get it. You perceive some problems I agree with, but for the most part, I think it's just ignorance.

His gdb account's been there for two years. His actual account might have been there for even longer.

But, okay. I'll remember that then. One cannot properly RP tulukiness after two years at least. And multiple characters. And if you question that maybe, maybe, something is wrong with it, you just don't 'get it.' Shall we ignore that some of the people posting complaints here have played for even longer? That some are deemed suitable to play desert elves and yet more complex roles? That Tuluk is considered a recommended starting point for brand new people to enter?

But, yeah. Ignorance. Right. That must be the case for a whole slew of people and their concerns.

[BleakOne]

Edited: Harmless's post below says it the best.

[Harmless]

This is terrible, you guys. Right now, we have a lot of new players, some of whom may be reading this, and we're accusing one another of being "ignorant" based on... what, some GDB posts? I know we warn them on other threads not to take the GDB seriously, but I humbly suggest that Reiloth should cool off some, and qualify his statements. Perhaps even redact.

Tuluk-based Newbies, just make sure to send honest character reports to the imms and you will get feedback on what you're doing. It might feel like learning the hard way at times, but stick with it and you'll "get it." Someday. Maybe. I can't tell you for certain, cause maybe I don't "get it" either. I would LIKE to "get it." I have played many Tuluki PCs in my endeavor to learn how Tuluk works. (Interestingly, the only Tuluki PCs I look back fondly on were female. The males, or one female dwarf were... not as fun. In fact, with one of my old Tulukis, I made some HORRIBLE decisions both ICly and not, and was driven to such a degree of frustration that I nearly lost karma.)

Those gaming experiences are directly related to my earlier posts. Becoming specific and suggesting my ideas for what could be done to fix those problems are too IC for this board. I have ideas for future characters now that I think have a shot at helping to "fix" this issue, perhaps a personal one, perhaps a larger problem (I can't be the judge), but with Tuluk's culture feeling so protected? I wonder what will come of those ideas, or if those character applications will even be allowed at all. We'll see.

In any case, I don't like being accused of "not getting" something that I literally put 750 hours of playing time into. (Yes, I did the math, Reiloth, using my account notes.) Playing any game for 750 hours and "not getting it" would be truly a stupendous feat of idiocy and ignorance indeed.

[Bellator]

Vwest: And sorry, you haven't been playing the game long enough to have any perspective. How many PCs have you played in Tuluk? Allanak? The breadth of experience one, two, three pcs can have don't touch the tip of the iceberg that is Tuluk.

Sorry, I don't feel I need to explain a philosophical milestone. If you don't get it, you don't get it. You perceive some problems I agree with, but for the most part, I think it's just ignorance.

I think it is unfair to say that Vwest's thoughts on any aspect of the game should be wholly ignored simply because he or she may or may not have as much experience playing the game as you or some other people do. To dismiss someone on the basis of "too bad you don't get it but I do" seems entirely unhelpful and not conducive to further discussion and exploration of what people's perceptions of a specific aspect of the game world is. Frankly it also seems rather elitist and condescending, and I wonder why you would bother to post something like that in the first place. Could we please keep the posts constructive rather than resorting to "lol nub"? To those people who have written at length about their perspective and likes/dislikes about Tuluk, thanks I've found some of the posts informative and helpful.

[Barzalene]

Harmless is correct.

[Reiloth]

Sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings. But I think making grand statements about how Tuluk sucks or why massive changes should be made likely isn't the purview of newer players. I think Vwest and many others made valid points throughout the thread. But I do not think newer players (rightfully so) get all the nuances of not only Tuluk, but other aspects/areas of the game. All I truly want is for people to dig a little deeper. I do not think Tuluk is as banal as some people make it out to be.

[Lizzie]

Sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings. But I think making grand statements about how Tuluk sucks or why massive changes should be made likely isn't the purview of newer players. I think Vwest and many others made valid points throughout the thread. But I do not think newer players (rightfully so) get all the nuances of not only Tuluk, but other aspects/areas of the game. All I truly want is for people to dig a little deeper. I do not think Tuluk is as banal as some people make it out to be.

The point some of us are trying to make though, Reilioth, is this:

How can we expect new players to comfortably fit into the "we get it" mode, when quite a few veterans don't get it? It shouldn't even be a matter of getting it or not getting it. You're basically saying that the learning curve is tolerable for everywhere EXCEPT Tuluk, which is impossible for even some veterans. I can't help but think that is a deterrant to playing, and not an attraction. It makes it not a challenge, but rather something to simply avoid entirely. How can new players think it's even worth it to try, when some veterans have tried, and tried, and tried, and haven't figured "it" out after years of playing?

And what is IT that people are getting, or not getting? I think that's the question being asked. What is IT? Define it. Because some of us have been trying to get it, but since we don't know what it is, we have no way of knowing if we got it or not, or if it's worth it to try and figure it out at all. I've received kudoses for my northern characters, and even some positive comments from some of the staffers - present and former - telling me that I'm doing a GREAT job with these characters. So, do I get it? If I do, how come I have no idea what it is?

It's like talking in circles whenever this topic comes up. The pro-Tulukis say "you just have to get it, in order to get it." And the anti-TUlukis say "we don't get it, therefore it sucks." And then there's the rest of us who just want to know what the hell IT is.

[Iiyola]

So the newbs don't get Tuluk. They certainly seem to get Allanak.

Where does the problem lay? The city? Or the player?

[musashi]

I must confess, I don't have any idea what the "it" is either, and I don't find those posts particularly helpful to anyone. I think Kismetic summed it up best when he said Tuluk is not Inception in text format, it's just a police state.

I don't think the documentation is really that complicated, so I'm not on Vwest's boat in the regard, but when he or she got into talking about high social status PC's getting deeply involved in some petty dispute between hunter Bob and hunter Joe as if the situation were serious as treason, that I can relate to.

Like I've said before I know that happens everywhere in Armageddon because of the PC microcosm, but it does seem to happen more in Tuluk from my perspective. I think that kind of thing is easy to fix, but easy to break again too ... it's just going to depend on who the leader PC's of the moment are.

Anyway what is this "it"? Can someone give a concise definition or example?

[Vwest]

But I think making grand statements about how Tuluk sucks or why massive changes should be made likely isn't the purview of newer players.

Exaggerating will not make your position any less assailable.

No one is suggesting we turn it into Allanak 2.0 or that we strip it bare and start again, only that there are changes that can be made to make it both more approachable to people and keep it in line with what the player population can support. I would play in a Tuluk where I'm not met with gaping holes where players should be or ridiculous situations that wouldn't exist if we made some simple adjustments to the social structure there.

No one is spitting on Tuluk, only suggesting ways to make it better for everyone.

So the newbs don't get Tuluk. They certainly seem to get Allanak.

Where does the problem lay? The city? Or the player?

It isn't just new players, it's veteran players as well.

The problem in situations like this is never the player. A game exists to support the players, not the other way around.

If you try to change the player, you're just going to alienate them further most of the time.

[Delirium]

Sorry if I've missed any suggestions among the complaints, but: how can we make Tuluk better?

[Zoan]

It's simple: we kill the Muktep.

[Quell]

Sorry if I've missed any suggestions among the complaints, but: how can we make Tuluk better?

There were actually some really good suggestions a few pages back. They kinda got burried.

Someone should make a "kickass Tuluki commoner" guide like was done for nobles.

Things I'd like to know: How to start plots, How to get involved in plots, Common mistakes to avoid, How to poke people with subtlty, How to make and keep allies... And other things I know I'll think of later.

[Jeshin]

Subtle snarking 101

You are an upstanding citizen with a tribal fetish, southron fetish. Someone makes a remark about how you favor the southron trade over northern merchants. Do you really or are you just kanking southrons and they are snarking?

Someone is after your man and you wish to snark upon them. Remark how they pursue him like a southron or tribal. Your proper upstanding tuluki man would never be seduce by such blatant tit floppage!

Someone is employed by a Chosen and has done something blatant like discussing magickers in public. You imply they are clearly blind, deaf, and slow for how could someone so favored by the presence of His Chosen be so bad at learning propriety!

Iunno mebbe I'll come up with some others later.

PS - I have been informed this post is misleading. I am implying the thought/mindset BEHIND your snarking. Do not literally quote me, no self respecting Tuluki would say tit floppage.

[musashi]

Someone should make a "kickass Tuluki commoner" guide like was done for nobles.

Things I'd like to know: How to start plots, How to get involved in plots, Common mistakes to avoid, How to poke people with subtlty, How to make and keep allies... And other things I know I'll think of later.

What kind of kick ass commoner do you want to make? There are some stark as night and day differences between an awesome half-elf warren rat trying to get by as a mule for the Akai Sjir who will never fully accept him ... and a born and bred circle bard ambitious to pick up the title of master, or win the Grey Hunt and become a Hlum noble ... even though both are commoners, and both could be kick ass, their experience and play will vary tremendously.

[greasygemo]

You see a rival Surif House member associating with the southern segment of the byn at the tooth, you turn to your companions in the tavern later and remark at how Amos of House Crappypants is probably making his wealth from selling wood in the black pit, and that any good and proud Tuluki citizen would -never- pilfer the Ivory's wealth and sell it to Southrons.

You overhear someone you dislike badmouthing a GMH leader. You smile and nod and encourage them to talk, then you way some brownnoser in their clan and ask them to send someone to the bar with a plain hood up because someone is trash talking them and you think they ought to hear it for themselves.

[Iiyola]

Cause no one will spam LOOK a hooded figure >.>

[Jeshin]

Not to be trolly or anything but >.> I just realized the GDB would be a good example of Tuluki jabs...

Greasy - Hooded figure shows up mysterious!
Iiyola - Because no one would LOOK spam a hood figure >.> *sarcasm*

^ Tuluk everyone! It's like forums, only less vehement swearing and flaming. More trolling.

[Delirium]

Tuluk: it's full of trolls. Subtle trolls.

[Iiyola]

I typoed that.

*hooded


Edit: Oh wait I didn't!

[greasygemo]

LOOOOOOOOL!

Look to the GDB would-be Tulukis! Your snarkiness tutoring is available in abundance therein!

You -can- do it plebeians!

[RogueGunslinger]

No. 

[greasygemo]

Are you no'ing that the plebeians can do it, the Trol-luk supposition, or just like, throwing a random no out there?