Furthering commerce and trade on Zalanthas

[greasygemo]

In regards to economy, what is the purpose of it in the game?

Primary Goal/best element of ARM = Roleplaying

Paramount to an enjoyable RP experience as outlined countless times equals one thing:
Surviving long enough to make friends, get involved in plots.

What things cost money and are required to meet this objective?

1. Food / Water
Not all PC's have the ability to greb for food and/or water and/or hunt, so in many cases,
the ability to pay for food and water is priority number one.

2. Weapons / Armour
If you are a PC that needs to go outside this is essential to survival.
You can't expect to live a long time venturing outside with a tandu cap and a sharp stick, unless you
really only care to kill the one tregil every week for a long long time, and that gets boring. Fast.

Furthermore, even PC's that don't hunt or guard invest in weapons and armor, what else protects you from
that rinthi that decides to take a swing at you in the Gaj?

3. Tools / Materials
Sanding blocks, picks, knives, uncraftable items and a whole host of things both merchants and hunters
alike need to complete their daily tasks.

4. Rent / Storage
Not applicable in all cases, but especially true of independents. You're not going to want to venture off
over encumbered, heck, if you're a lumbering sort, you're not going to be able to even carry much.

5. Social Quo Tools / Items
Again, not always applicable, but if you are the type that wants to get involved in larger, high level plots,
bribes, assassins, buying dinner and wine for that Crew Leader, getting an appropriate outfit to wear
at that event, hiring a teacher or instructor for something, etc. You need money to do that. Sometimes, a lot.

The economy, if we are looking at it in the scope of it's place in the game world, should support the objective of
being able to RP and HAVE FUN DOING IT.

So long as the economy is doing that, then it's fine. If there are people seriously abusing it to a level that impacts
the enjoyability of the game, then it presents a problem. Otherwise, just leave it alone.

[RogueGunslinger]

That was a lot of words to basically say "don't fix what ain' broke"

I think, based on this thread, some people probably think it's broken, yeah?

[AmandaGreathouse]

Lots of money: lots of money to spend on players (bribes, gifts, plots, PC purchases).

If you're just sitting on piles of money for no reason other than to have it, and you're not a dwarf with a related focus: USE YOUR 'SID.

Actual $$ amounts, meh, I've had over 80k, I've had characters who rarely topped 1k and if they did, felt insanely rich.

5-15k is a reasonable average for an established indie PC who has to frequently grease the wheels of the playerbase.

+1

I've rarely topped 1k on hand with -any- of my characters, let alone 80k. I agree with everything you said though.

@moe: I've had one character that apparently made around 10k a month - noble house employed, made it outside the employment, and put more than 50% of it back to their noble to fund projects with. I had no idea it was anywhere -near- that much until another character who knew that pc pointed it out, so they immediately started using it to fund plots. Why? Because the actions that resulted in it weren't deciding to 'mass produce' things to try and 'make a ton of sid'. They were a crafter who sat and regularly crafted who had ridiculously good access to markets and would make it a point -not- to run everyone up to max stock or drain all their coin and dropped even that # when other pcs of the same crafting type showed up around and started selling to the same folks. I don't think making what averages out to let's say, 2-3 rings or 2-3 shirts in a day is unrealistic, given that I could make the same IRL Sewing by hand, and have, or crafting with nothing more than sandpaper to shape the stuff from raw materials, also have. [ps: Had no clue they were making so much because they'd never have more than 600 or so sid on them unless it was under exceptional circumstances, and they in no way shape or form ever used nenyuk]

[williamson]

     I've read a lot of people asking the staff for coded solutions, bank account caps, and longer crafting delays. Personally, I find all of these things dreadfully boring and frustrating. What if we asked for IG solutions...

For example, I bet a lot of these problems come from Tuluk where there are plenty of easily obtainable resources and lots of profitable game to hunt. Seeing this, the staff opens up or moves tribal elves into the grasslands east of Tuluk. These elves are highly territorial and fiercely defend thier land from Tuluki that they see as poachers. Suddenly, there is real risk involved in heading out all alone on a duskhorn hunt.

Down in Allanak, perhaps gith PCs are reintroduced to add a little more danger. The growing player base might suggest the game can handle a few more evil clans. Suddenly, there is an increased demand for mercenaries and caravan guides. Players have to work together more frequently. Perhaps some try to bribe the gith, others learn to avoid them, and some can fight their way through.

And down in Red Storm... Pfff, Red Storm doesn't have any of these problems. A jug of ale and a bowl of stew cost over 120 coins. The apartments are small and expensive. When you leave the gates, beasts hunt you instead of you hunting them. Sandstorms rage for over three straight days, food and water are scarce, and your bank account is how much you can carry in your backpack!

Which game would you rather play? One with longer crafting delays and bank account caps, or the one where you face an ugly, screaming PC gith warrior/outdoorsman?

I know which one I'd prefer.

[Maso]

I'd still like to see caps adjusted....and more based off the value/size of an item. Stuff like...a stem of grass or a flower or a single vine...cap at 100...stuff like a bed or a full suit of armor...cap at 5.

[RogueGunslinger]

     I've read a lot of people asking the staff for coded solutions, bank account caps, and longer crafting delays. Personally, I find all of these things dreadfully boring and frustrating. What if we asked for IG solutions...

For example, I bet a lot of these problems come from Tuluk where there are plenty of easily obtainable resources and lots of profitable game to hunt. Seeing this, the staff opens up or moves tribal elves into the grasslands east of Tuluk. These elves are highly territorial and fiercely defend thier land from Tuluki that they see as poachers. Suddenly, there is real risk involved in heading out all alone on a duskhorn hunt.

Down in Allanak, perhaps gith PCs are reintroduced to add a little more danger. The growing player base might suggest the game can handle a few more evil clans. Suddenly, there is an increased demand for mercenaries and caravan guides. Players have to work together more frequently. Perhaps some try to bribe the gith, others learn to avoid them, and some can fight their way through.

And down in Red Storm... Pfff, Red Storm doesn't have any of these problems. A jug of ale and a bowl of stew cost over 120 coins. The apartments are small and expensive. When you leave the gates, beasts hunt you instead of you hunting them. Sandstorms rage for over three straight days, food and water are scarce, and your bank account is how much you can carry in your backpack!

Which game would you rather play? One with longer crafting delays and bank account caps, or the one where you face an ugly, screaming PC gith warrior/outdoorsman?

I know which one I'd prefer.

Well, your suggestions are cool and all, but still require a bunch of work from staff. You did make me want to play in Red Storm though.

[Potaje]

The worst offender is crafting upwards of 500 items in that same time frame.

Ahem. Shitty.

That is because they are a child in china, it is expected.. oh wait this is Z-land.. my bad.

[greasygemo]

It sounds like it's broke because people wanna make more money, not less.

[flurry]

I'd be all for variable crafting delays. You either make something fast or you make something well. Not both. Go ahead and rush through dozens of crafts in a day, but good luck getting anyone to buy them. Or take your time and have something worth selling.

[Quell]

I'd be all for variable crafting delays. You either make something fast or you make something well. Not both. Go ahead and rush through dozens of crafts in a day, but good luck getting anyone to buy them. Or take your time and have something worth selling.

I would be more enthusiastic about this idea if they permitted waying during crafting delays.

[flurry]

I'd be all for variable crafting delays. You either make something fast or you make something well. Not both. Go ahead and rush through dozens of crafts in a day, but good luck getting anyone to buy them. Or take your time and have something worth selling.

I would be more enthusiastic about this idea if they permitted waying during crafting delays.

Right. I agree. I don't know how it would even work, but I'm just thinking it would be nice if there were some tradeoff giving reasonable consequences for something like rushing to make a zillion silk dresses, for example.

[Sav]

I played a game where each craft had a set amount of virtual time needed to complete it, and once you hit your daily work cap you couldn't craft anything else.

So, you'd make a really fancy dress and some silky braies, or a bunch of simple doodads, and you were done for the day. Maybe you'd have some work time left to cook dinner and cut a quick ribbon or two, but you couldn't just sit around churning out ultra-embroidered fancy stuff. You'd have to go and hang out in the world.

I'm not saying this is ideal, just another alternative way of dealing with an IC economy.

[FantasyWriter]

IMO, GMH leaders should put more of a lean on indie crafters who are cutting in on their houses niche whether personally, through hired shadies, or da law.
CORRUPTION being the key word here.  Hell, at times it's probably worth having a minion who's main task is to watch the markets and keep you informed as to how you and your house can be taking advantage of the little guys who are essentially taking money out of your pockets (bonus coins to them if they are also the ones who handle getting your chosen point across or being the middle man for the ones who do). *Shout-out to the best minion ever, you know who you are!!!*

Heh, I've even had staff telling me OOCly to back off on one or two indies in the past.
Armageddon staff telling me that my corrupt monopoly holder is being too corrupt gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside.

[Nyr]

Once a staff member tells the community that players are a major part of the problem with the economy, could it have gone in any other direction?

It's not really as bad as you're painting it, nor the situation as bad as I initially thought, and I said as much.  The discussion probably needs to occur.  However, you should trust that players and staff that have been actively playing for years do have a pretty good grasp of what is going on.  If you're only recently coming back from a hiatus, I would suggest taking a step back to see how the game itself is working and ask questions first--then make suggestions! 

[Quell]

IMO, GMH leaders should put more of a lean on indie crafters who are cutting in on their houses niche whether personally, through hired shadies, or da law.
CORRUPTION being the key word here.  Hell, at times it's probably worth having a minion who's main task is to watch the markets and keep you informed as to how you and your house can be taking advantage of the little guys who are essentially taking money out of your pockets (bonus coins to them if they are also the ones who handle getting your chosen point across or being the middle man for the ones who do). *Shout-out to the best minion ever, you know who you are!!!*

Heh, I've even had staff telling me OOCly to back off on one or two indies in the past.
Armageddon staff telling me that my corrupt monopoly holder is being too corrupt gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside.

I wish they would do this too, but I think most higher up GMHs just have too much on their plates.

... Of course they could always delegate. I think that'd be a fun task for a lower ranking GMH. Make some trouble; sanctioned trouble.

[Incognito]

Instead of relying on Staff to ferret out indie merchants who are disrupting one or more GMH's interests with mass flooding of shops - an easy and effective IC solution would be for GMH leader PCs to designate one or more persons to keep an eye on the marketplaces and if found necessary, have them "take care" of the indie merchants. This could be in the form of a warning, threat, absorption into the clan itself or in extreme cases even a quick contract to the city's shadier institutions who offer such services.

[greasygemo]

You know, I think I almost saw this happened at least once.. Then nothing happened. I can't say anything about it, but I super duper hope the nothing happening was for like, an IC reason. 

[Desertman]

Here is my thing....


I have a problem with some merchant PC crafting 800 times in 24 hours for weeks on end and then sitting on a huge horde of coins in the bank that they do nothing with. They just like, "being wealthy".

I have absolutely no problem with some merchant PC who has four hunters/guards working for him, an apprentice, and political ties to "soothe" with bribes and gifts crafting 800 times in a 24 hour period for weeks on end and having some coins in the bank but using most of their wealth to fuel the economy at multiple levels and basically CREATING plots/jobs/storylines/a player to player economy in the game.

There is a huge difference. One of those adds a ton to the game and in my mind is WHY merchants are "craft everything animals" and the other makes you a useless asshat.

Merchants = Mini-Dungeon-Masters/Quest-Givers in my opinion. (Again, my opinion, that is how I played both of the merchants I have ever played, I'm not trying to force you to, though I wish you would.)

[Desertman]

Instead of relying on Staff to ferret out indie merchants who are disrupting one or more GMH's interests with mass flooding of shops - an easy and effective IC solution would be for GMH leader PCs to designate one or more persons to keep an eye on the marketplaces and if found necessary, have them "take care" of the indie merchants. This could be in the form of a warning, threat, absorption into the clan itself or in extreme cases even a quick contract to the city's shadier institutions who offer such services.

Hehe, I had this happen to one of the only two merchants I have ever played.

Salarr took me out in the middle of a tavern. Good times. 

[greasygemo]

Here is my thing....


I have a problem with some merchant PC crafting 800 times in 24 hours for weeks on end and then sitting on a huge horde of coins in the bank that they do nothing with. They just like, "being wealthy".

I have absolutely no problem with some merchant PC who has four hunters/guards working for him, an apprentice, and political ties to "soothe" with bribes and gifts crafting 800 times in a 24 hour period for weeks on end and having some coins in the bank but using most of their wealth to fuel the economy at multiple levels and basically CREATING plots/jobs/storylines/a player to player economy in the game.

There is a huge difference. One of those adds a ton to the game and in my mind is WHY merchants are "craft everything animals" and the other makes you a useless asshat.

Merchants = Mini-Dungeon-Masters/Quest-Givers in my opinion. (Again, my opinion, that is how I played both of the merchants I have ever played, I'm not trying to force you to, though I wish you would.)

+1

If you wanna make sids. Spend sids on plots! DO IT!

[flurry]

Here is my thing....


I have a problem with some merchant PC crafting 800 times in 24 hours for weeks on end and then sitting on a huge horde of coins in the bank that they do nothing with. They just like, "being wealthy".

I have absolutely no problem with some merchant PC who has four hunters/guards working for him, an apprentice, and political ties to "soothe" with bribes and gifts crafting 800 times in a 24 hour period for weeks on end and having some coins in the bank but using most of their wealth to fuel the economy at multiple levels and basically CREATING plots/jobs/storylines/a player to player economy in the game.

The ends justify the means?

[Potaje]

Here is my thing....


I have a problem with some merchant PC crafting 800 times in 24 hours for weeks on end and then sitting on a huge horde of coins in the bank that they do nothing with. They just like, "being wealthy".

I have absolutely no problem with some merchant PC who has four hunters/guards working for him, an apprentice, and political ties to "soothe" with bribes and gifts crafting 800 times in a 24 hour period for weeks on end and having some coins in the bank but using most of their wealth to fuel the economy at multiple levels and basically CREATING plots/jobs/storylines/a player to player economy in the game.

The ends justify the means?

I think the point is that crafting 800 things in 24hrs will not leave much room to create those plots.

As for how I would view them, they are little replenishing treasure boxes, not mini-dungeon masters, IMHO.

[Erythil]

I think it would be neat if GMH PC leaders got an automated list every week from the mud that listed out the sdesc of everyone who sold over, lets say 10, items to one of their shops in the region they are responsible for in the last week.  Just a sdesc, a number of items, and how much sid the GMH forked over for those items.  Not a list of everyone, just a list of those people that did it frequently enough to catch the House's attention.

I really like this idea.

I mean, for companies to stay in charge of their monopolies for 3+ centuries, they aren't doing it solely based on the strength of their business acumen.

It also makes dealing with this problem something that can be handled player-to-player and create more action.

[Fredd]

I think it would be neat if GMH PC leaders got an automated list every week from the mud that listed out the sdesc of everyone who sold over, lets say 10, items to one of their shops in the region they are responsible for in the last week.  Just a sdesc, a number of items, and how much sid the GMH forked over for those items.  Not a list of everyone, just a list of those people that did it frequently enough to catch the House's attention.

I really like this idea.

I mean, for companies to stay in charge of their monopolies for 3+ centuries, they aren't doing it solely based on the strength of their business acumen.

It also makes dealing with this problem something that can be handled player-to-player and create more action.

I agree with this. When i played a GMH family member. I tried to pay as close attention to the markets as possible. But it was neigh impossible sometimes.

[Lancer]

I think it would be neat if GMH PC leaders got an automated list every week from the mud that listed out the sdesc of everyone who sold over, lets say 10, items to one of their shops in the region they are responsible for in the last week.  Just a sdesc, a number of items, and how much sid the GMH forked over for those items.  Not a list of everyone, just a list of those people that did it frequently enough to catch the House's attention.

I really like this idea.

I mean, for companies to stay in charge of their monopolies for 3+ centuries, they aren't doing it solely based on the strength of their business acumen.

It also makes dealing with this problem something that can be handled player-to-player and create more action.

I could see a whole new meaning for Kadian Fashion Police™