Furthering commerce and trade on Zalanthas

[Maso]

It makes me sad the the GMH don't have more allure.

Whaaa'. What is with all the GMH hate. Guys. They have allure. It's not about the money. It's about the RPs! Sure your hunter is not going to be insanely rich within an IG month, but you do sudden access to a whole bunch of friends, and enemies and stories and plots, people to train with, a boss to hate, a woman to love, free gear from time to time, a purpose, something to complain about, something to adore, something to strive toward, someone you want to impress...etc etc. And usually, if you stick with it, don't die, actually get good, and you're not a douche....then you get rich.

Anyway, point is. The value of GMHs should not be based off the potential weekly income. It should be based off the potential for interesting and engaging RP.

[Molten Heart]

If some kind of cap were introduced, it should be calculated for net gains.  If I'm spending five hundred coins a RL day, I don't think it's unrealistic to be bringing in seven hundred.  However the complexities of such a system would be great even if it only effected coded costs and not PC interactions.

[Patuk]

It makes me sad the the GMH don't have more allure.

Whaaa'. What is with all the GMH hate. Guys. They have allure. It's not about the money. It's about the RPs! Sure your hunter is not going to be insanely rich within an IG month, but you do sudden access to a whole bunch of friends, and enemies and stories and plots, people to train with, a boss to hate, a woman to love, free gear from time to time, a purpose, something to complain about, something to adore, something to strive toward, someone you want to impress...etc etc. And usually, if you stick with it, don't die, actually get good, and you're not a douche....then you get rich.

Anyway, point is. The value of GMHs should not be based off the potential weekly income. It should be based off the potential for interesting and engaging RP.

What's the last time you actively sought out to work for a company that doesn't care about you in order to make less money than you otherwise would?

[Old Kank]

I'm talking about people that make about 500 or even 800 offers vs 100 to 200 barters over that same 48 RL hour period.  The worst offender is crafting upwards of 500 items in that same time frame.  The ranger I'll have to look at more closely and weigh out exactly how much is being killed/skinned, but it's not looking pretty either.

Everybody is annoyed about this, but can we see this data with playtimes added?  If the 500 item crafter is playing 16 of 48 hours, then they're actually crafting a lot less than someone making 200 items while playing an hour a night.

100-200 offers in a 48 hour period actually doesn't seem like much to me.  If you make five offers per item, you only have to buy 20 different things.  A tailor can go through that in about thirty minutes.

Not that I'm advocating spam-crafters filling NPC shops, but some consensus about what is and isn't acceptable might be useful.

[Marauder Moe]

If some kind of cap were introduced, it should be calculated for net gains.  If I'm spending five hundred coins a RL day, I don't think it's unrealistic to be bringing in seven hundred.  However the complexities of such a system would be great even if it only effected coded costs and not PC interactions.

I'm not sure it should.  Your net may be only 200, but the other 500 didn't neccesarily just go away; it probably went into your skills.

Also, PC interactions wouldn't be measured.  We want to encourage PC to PC sales, after all.

[Nyr]

I'm talking about people that make about 500 or even 800 offers vs 100 to 200 barters over that same 48 RL hour period.  The worst offender is crafting upwards of 500 items in that same time frame.  The ranger I'll have to look at more closely and weigh out exactly how much is being killed/skinned, but it's not looking pretty either.

Everybody is annoyed about this, but can we see this data with playtimes added?  If the 500 item crafter is playing 16 of 48 hours, then they're actually crafting a lot less than someone making 200 items while playing an hour a night.

Fair point, and something that cannot be discounted. I suppose if you are playing that much, it is less, though it would seem to make my next point* more pivotal to review.

100-200 offers in a 48 hour period actually doesn't seem like much to me.  If you make five offers per item, you only have to buy 20 different things.  A tailor can go through that in about thirty minutes.

But 800 in a 48 hour period, well.  That seems like a lot.  Again, if you're playing a lot in that 48 hour period, it is comparable to your playtime, but adjusted out evenly it still may be more than the average player.  I'm not really concerned with that part as much anymore.  I've done more research since then and it is not so bad as I initially thought, but there is certainly an amount of min/maxing and exploitation going on; *the degree to which it affects other players is something I'm still trying to narrow down.

[Nyr]

It makes me sad the the GMH don't have more allure.

Whaaa'. What is with all the GMH hate. Guys. They have allure. It's not about the money. It's about the RPs! Sure your hunter is not going to be insanely rich within an IG month, but you do sudden access to a whole bunch of friends, and enemies and stories and plots, people to train with, a boss to hate, a woman to love, free gear from time to time, a purpose, something to complain about, something to adore, something to strive toward, someone you want to impress...etc etc. And usually, if you stick with it, don't die, actually get good, and you're not a douche....then you get rich.

Anyway, point is. The value of GMHs should not be based off the potential weekly income. It should be based off the potential for interesting and engaging RP.

What's the last time you actively sought out to work for a company that doesn't care about you in order to make less money than you otherwise would?

...in the short run.

Indies may make more obsidian coins than clanned folks on the average and in the short run, but the graph ends up looking better for clanned PCs of all stripes in the long run.

• On average, independents do not live as long as clanned PCs.
• As the life of a clanned PC (particularly mercantile clanned PCs) goes on, more opportunities exist for major profit with regards to large deals on behalf of said organization.  Independents may get similar opportunities, but for the most part, it rarely happens.
• The richest PCs are not independents.  Though there are some independents with a disproportionately high level in their bank accounts, they aren't anywhere close to the richest PCs as a whole.
• Coin does not equal political power.  It can buy you a posse, but established organizations usually have bigger posses.
• Clanned coin is usually safer than indie coin (your clan usually has your back, whether you're dealing with Nenyuk, your own clan, or the authorities).  There are exceptions.

[Molten Heart]

If some kind of cap were introduced, it should be calculated for net gains.  If I'm spending five hundred coins a RL day, I don't think it's unrealistic to be bringing in seven hundred.  However the complexities of such a system would be great even if it only effected coded costs and not PC interactions.

I'm not sure it should.  Your net may be only 200, but the other 500 didn't neccesarily just go away; it probably went into your skills.

Also, PC interactions wouldn't be measured.  We want to encourage PC to PC sales, after all.

We also want to encourage spending money, not disincentive it by making expenses cost against profits.

[edited to add]

If I can spend 200 coins in the tavern buying spice and booze and know I can make it back by selling 200 worth in goods then I'm more likely to do that than not buy anything.

[Desertman]

...in the short run.

The majority of characters in Armageddon aren't "longlived", so for the majority of the characters in Armageddon, indies make more coins than GMH employees, so....seems like a back to square one arguement. For most players, playing in a GMH isn't attractive due to low wages during their probable short-term careers. If they defy the odds and live a long time, yes, it is more attractive, but, that is playing against the odds, instead of with them, and playing against the odds is never attractive.

One might go on to argue that GMH's wouldn't pay higher wages to start because they ALSO know that most employees are short-term due to a high death ratio. I agree with that, and that makes IC sense, it however still leaves the playerbase with the "misconception", that being a member of a GMH, unless you are really high up, isn't very great/as great as the documentation makes it out to be.

[Barzalene]

Well, one thing to consider is they make much more in GMH position than their virtual indie counterparts.

Also, even though you have less virtual sid to buy virtual stuff, I think clans present more rp opportunities. I think that is better than virtual Sid.

Is this a derail?

[Nyr]

If they defy the odds and live a long time, yes, it is more attractive, but, that is playing against the odds, instead of with them, and playing against the odds is never attractive.

"They" came to the wrong game for that.  We're not saying that we won't tweak things here and there, but if the argument is that it's hard to stay alive and actually get to that point, see the rules of the game.

I think the biggest misconception for players is that pay in obsidian coins is more important than all of the benefits afforded those in organizational units in-game.  And again, we will tweak things if need be to make this more clear.

[Booya]

If there was a cap on how much PCs can make selling to shops each week, then staff could keep it in line with how much GMH employees (maybe recruits?) make.

Sure it's a bit of an OOC concept, but so is having an NPC pay as much for your novicely cut plank as they do for a masterly cut one. You could have the IC reasoning as shop keepers not liking the look of your creations, or the hide was badly tanned in a rush or something. If you want to be sure the buyer will like and buy your blouse of doom, then spend that IG half month pretending to focus your attention on making it.

It also wouldn't shaft casual and off peak players (who understandably don't always have the patience to be in an unpopulated clan with an enforced schedule), as it could be a manageable amount to live off.

It would also correspond to the way you can get rich in clans - by living a long time and defying the odds!

It might also help change the mentality that exists where GMH employment doesn't seem to some so attractive* and GMH employers often seem to have to tout for employees. The only convincing argument for joining a clan is for RP, which should be enough really but in practice doesn't seem to work out that way.

Being an independent should be the hard choice, not the easy one.

* Though I think the financial aspect is only part of this problem, but that's a derail.

[AmandaGreathouse]

You do realize that there's at least one GMH where recruits make nothing, literally nothing, in coins, Booya?

That would simply tweak it so that you could literally make no coins with an unclanned or clanned recruit, depending on the clan.

And aside from that, most clans recruit pay won't cover the rent on a shitty apartment. Where do indies sleep? And how would that work for someone who's, let's say, playing 10 hours a day, but outside for good portions of it, making 150 sid (if we're going with some noble house employee pay, some gmh pay) per RL week. That's not going to begin to cover the cost of food and water alone.

[Kismetic]

The reason for joining a GMH as a crafter is because each GMH has a specialty, and they can do that specialty better than any independent can hope to in a lifetime, because they have literal Ages worth of infrastructure, research and clout.  Somewhere along the way, when you master those techniques, you are locked in as a permanent House asset.

If you don't believe me, build yourself a wagon, make a perfect diamond cut, or build an indestructible suit of horror plate armor that's light enough for a human.  I dare you!

[AmandaGreathouse]

The reason for joining a GMH as a crafter is because each GMH has a specialty, and they can do that specialty better than any independent can hope to in a lifetime, because they have literal Ages worth of infrastructure, research and clout.  Somewhere along the way, when you master those techniques, you are locked in as a permanent House asset.

If you don't believe me, build yourself a wagon, make a perfect diamond cut, or build an indestructible suit of horror plate armor that's light enough for a human.  I dare you!

Exactly. You should be happy or begging to join them not because of the sid, but because of the other opportunities. Being indie's like being a child star in hollywood. You're totally popular, you get around a lot after you start to grow up and WAY before you meet your full potential, you have an early, pointless death that leaves vast amounts more wealth than anyone that's been around as little time as you have ought to have.

Clanned pcs would be the Elizabeth Taylor's of the game world. Around forever, took a long while to build their wealth, get involved in decade-long storylines, and do impossible thing but have their own unique trademark that even after death will be associated with them, even if it belongs more to the clan than the individual pc. Like Elizabeth Taylor's White Diamonds. Heh.

I don't think that trying to make indie pcs work the way clanned pcs work is a feasible idea, and I think it would have a lot of undesirable side effects.

[Booya]

You do realize that there's at least one GMH where recruits make nothing, literally nothing, in coins, Booya?

Nope, didn't realize. Or have forgotton, if I knew. Sooo....obviously i'm not saying the amount you should be able to make off NPC shops should be 0. Maybe give those particular recruits pay? Maybe pay for GMH employees needs to be bumped a bit. Also, maybe different jobs in clans have different answers to make things work.

If someone is living outside for a good portion of their gameplay, aren't they meant to be a ranger or have subguilds to help with that kind of water/food problem? If they haven't got that, life would be hard anyway...w/shouldn't it?

Personally, I think affording an apartment or room that you're not slumming with 10 other NPCs and has a lock should be seen as a luxury, not a given. If you can't afford one with sharing the rent with another person, as a GMH recruit, maybe that needs to be changed. Though really, as far as I know you get a cot and a locker. Not willing to play an IG year without having your own place? If you want to mudsex, get creative!

Why clans are good.

Yes. I think this falls under what I said about RP being the good reason for joining one - as opposed to it being financially at least on a par with being indie.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

What does staff consider to be the "safe zone" with regards to money for an unconnected indie? Four digit number? If a person isn't exceedingly careful with where they buy their food from the costs of simply sitting in a tavern over a long period of time for an indie can go up fast, and while a large to my indie might be a moderate sum of money, by the end of a RL week with enough playtime that food has been eaten. I've never gotten an idea of how much money is too much to have and I'd like to keep well below it. Any ideas?

[Marauder Moe]

I think a fair measuring stick is clan salaries, which typically seem to range from 300-500 per game month (1 game month ~= 2 RL weeks).

So, as an indy, factor out food and water costs (because clans usually provide those) over the same period and then compare your remainder to the above figure.

[Maso]

Krath, I don't think we should all be walking around on eggshells making sure we don't make too much money. :p

[Cutthroat]

If the problem of indie crafters flooding the markets is caused by a desire to amass wealth, a potentially good way to fix that would be to put a cap on bank account sizes. I think if Nenyuk was only willing to store up to (for the sake of argument) 10,000 of an indie's coins it would limit the desire to collect coins, force indies that desire wealth to work together and form those cool indie groups that pop up from time to time, and help establish that indies lack clout in society if Nenyuk doesn't want to waste the effort involved in keeping track of a mere indie's money. Indies that disregard the cap would have to carry the money or store it somewhere else, leaving them vulnerable to robbery, or actually buy stuff. Meanwhile clanned PCs would have higher caps, and nobles/templars/GMH family would have even higher caps or none at all.

[williamson]

...in the short run.

The majority of characters in Armageddon aren't "longlived", so for the majority of the characters in Armageddon, indies make more coins than GMH employees, so....seems like a back to square one arguement. For most players, playing in a GMH isn't attractive due to low wages during their probable short-term careers. If they defy the odds and live a long time, yes, it is more attractive, but, that is playing against the odds, instead of with them, and playing against the odds is never attractive.

One might go on to argue that GMH's wouldn't pay higher wages to start because they ALSO know that most employees are short-term due to a high death ratio. I agree with that, and that makes IC sense, it however still leaves the playerbase with the "misconception", that being a member of a GMH, unless you are really high up, isn't very great/as great as the documentation makes it out to be.

"... in the short term" is a matter of opinion. Personally, I feel the game should shrive for balance more for long term characters more than short. If you only live for a RL month, you're not really impacting the game a great deal. The GMH's have much more profit potential, power, and influence than almost any indy can obtain. For example, how often do you see an indy merchant rolling around in a wagon with NPC guards?

Here are some problems with the current economy:

• The economy hasn't adjusted to the increased number of players. This results in many shops that are out of money and lots of shops that don't buy common items.
• Newbie characters use to spend their newbie coin at the shops in the cities/villages. Now they spend their coins in the newbie OOC shops and this coin and purchases no longer impacts the game.
• With the extended subguilds, more characters can now obtain their own raw materials and mastercraft their own things to trade.

Possible solutions:

• Instead of selling one item to VNPCs, have shop keeper NPCs sell all of 1 type of item to VNPCs and add that money to what they can buy.
• Increase the rate of virtual sell offs.
• Have shops start with less gear and more money on reboots.
• Add these newbie shops to the IG world or tie their profits to an associated IG market.
• Allow templars more leash to shakedown and "tax" indys without political influence. Indys might need to bribe templars or organizations for protection.

I'd also like to suggest that some of these problems can be handled by players IG. If gortok skulls no longer sell well, hunt something else or take your skulls to another village or city where gortoks are rare. If someone is flooding the market where you trade, trade something else or have that person assassinated. If that indy looks too rich outside the city, rob/raid them.

However, we shouldn't weaken the independent too much. They are the primary targets of most of the PC burglars in the game. Without them, you end up playing a burglar that keeps breaking into empty apartments. Plus, people without guards are more easily sapped 

[Marauder Moe]

Krath, I don't think we should all be walking around on eggshells making sure we don't make too much money. :p

I don't mean to say that if you make more than a clanned character you should be ashamed of yourself.  However, if you make 10x as much as a clanned character, you probably should reconsider your playing habits.

[LauraMars]

If someone could weigh in on how much money is acceptable for an indie to make, that would be nice.

If a new player found this thread, we wouldn't want them to think they are doing something wrong by selling stacks of five items to npc shopkeepers.

[Law&Order]

Why not just have your respective city-state/outpost who are housing Nenyuk impose a tax on all balance inquiries, withdrawals and deposits for anyone who isn't an employee of a GMH or noble house?  Seems like that would take care of some of it.  People in Zalanthas should be living paycheck to paycheck without huge stockpiles of money at their disposal when they want it.  God, maybe it would put more coins in dead character's backpacks and in apartments to be burgled.  Would that be such a bad thing?  And make the tax rate so high that it's just almost, gosh, oppressive?  Nenyuk can't just sit on all the coin, let the God-Kings tax already.

So, in review:  high taxes for indie, no taxes for clannies.  There you have it.

[Molten Heart]

If the problem of indie crafters flooding the markets is caused by a desire to amass wealth, a potentially good way to fix that would be to put a cap on bank account sizes. I think if Nenyuk was only willing to store up to (for the sake of argument) 10,000 of an indie's coins it would limit the desire to collect coins, force indies that desire wealth to work together and form those cool indie groups that pop up from time to time, and help establish that indies lack clout in society if Nenyuk doesn't want to waste the effort involved in keeping track of a mere indie's money. Indies that disregard the cap would have to carry the money or store it somewhere else, leaving them vulnerable to robbery, or actually buy stuff. Meanwhile clanned PCs would have higher caps, and nobles/templars/GMH family would have even higher caps or none at all.

I like this idea... another idea building on this is that there could be "banking errors" if an accounts become very large where there is no actual cap but the amount deposited isn't exactly the same as the balance.  

This would encourage players to either spend/invest their coins, or do other things with their playtime.