Discussion of changes to Armageddon Website

[LauraMars]

I love the new search tool - it makes it super easy to instantly find what I'm looking for.  I already use it constantly!  Anyway, it seems quite easy to navigate without using the search tool if you don't happen to like search tools - just click on basically any link anywhere on the website and you'll get a sidebar with related topics and a row of letters that lets you navigate alphabetically.

[Lizzie]

The whole website is (for the most part) helpfiles.  Search searches the website.  Search gets you helpfiles.  

I think that's pretty awesome, especially the easier-to-update functionality of it all.

But my point is - and maybe I'm alone in this - I had to come read this thread to figure that out.  I went to look up a helpfile and checked all the subject headings and things while looking for it, and eventually had to pull up the old website.  I see the little magnifying glass/search buttons so often on apps and websites that I just gloss over them without ever thinking about what they might be used for.  I think if I were a new player six months from now, when this thread is old and buried, I'd just assume the helpfiles weren't on the website.

I think it's a great feature that's being buried beneath a pretty generic and ubiquitous button, and that seems like a shame.

I'd argue that you're used to the way the old site used to work, where helpfiles were auxiliary to the rest of the documentation.  A new player doesn't have that history, so they're going to go through our menu, or use our search button if they're looking for things.  

Actually, new players to Arm, who are -not- new players to muds in general, are used to having a single link to an overall helpfile, very plainly labeled as the help file. Very much like our previous help file link. While I do like the new layout of help files, I also had to learn about how to access them by coming to the GDB. I didn't realize that the entire website was a help file. I assumed it was laid out similarly to other mud websites, and that the magnifying glass icon would do the same thing it does in other mud websites. Once I came here to the GDB, and saw how to navigate there, I was okay with it.

But I'd *also* still like to see one master "HELP FILE PAGE" with categories and cross references just like the previous one, which is just like most mud help files on their websites. It makes things consistent and easier for mudders from other games to transition to Armageddon's site.

Re: The game reset notification - totally understand about that. It does pose a problem though - if I encounter something in the game, that is _probably_ caused by a game reset, but I don't know that the game has reset, I have no way of knowing if it was, in fact, caused by a game reset, or if it was something that another character did ICly. Things like - things being out of place. "arrange" ldescs being eliminated. Mobs being places they weren't yesterday. Plants having missing stuff. Things that normally appear in save rooms, not being there. Often times, this is simply the result of a game reset. But sometimes, more nefarious things are going on, things that my character might want to investigate and be concerned about. I would really hate to go on a wild goose chase over what is really just a code issue that has nothing to do with the plotlines.

I would send up a request about it, but I already have one up about something that is probably the result of exactly that - and it's been several days since I sent it with no response. So if a game reset happens today, and I log in tonight to see things different, and send a request to ask about it, and don't hear back for another week, well - it's kind of frustrating because I don't know how my character SHOULD respond, if at all, to this situation. It just makes things very awkward ICly.

Having the "last reset" nofication would eliminate much of that (in my current request situation, it is definitely not related to a game reset because the game hadn't been reset recently at that time. I'm just using it as an example of why it's awkward to wait for a request tool response to asking if the game has been reset, or if there's something IC that my character might discover).

Edited to append: I DO agree and understand with the reasoning for the game reset info to be removed for the time being. I'm just expressing that it can be frustrating for legitimate reasons 

[Nyr]

Actually, new players to Arm, who are -not- new players to muds in general, are used to having a single link to an overall helpfile, very plainly labeled as the help file. Very much like our previous help file link. While I do like the new layout of help files, I also had to learn about how to access them by coming to the GDB. I didn't realize that the entire website was a help file. I assumed it was laid out similarly to other mud websites, and that the magnifying glass icon would do the same thing it does in other mud websites. Once I came here to the GDB, and saw how to navigate there, I was okay with it.

Cool, now you know!

But I'd *also* still like to see one master "HELP FILE PAGE" with categories and cross references just like the previous one, which is just like most mud help files on their websites. It makes things consistent and easier for mudders from other games to transition to Armageddon's site.

We're not adding a help link that does nothing more than point to the 'Topics' help page just because "everyone else does it."  This is going to be a case where we disagree.

[Morgenes]

To expand on Nyr's comments.  We have gone through the painstaking process of unifying our documentation so they are both accessible and appealing both in game as well as on the web.  We feel this should be the standard, and as he said, we're not going to do something just because everyone else does.  We feel that the new layout and organization scheme speaks for itself.

[Rhyden]

The whole website is (for the most part) helpfiles.  Search searches the website.  Search gets you helpfiles. 

I think that's pretty awesome, especially the easier-to-update functionality of it all.

But my point is - and maybe I'm alone in this - I had to come read this thread to figure that out.  I went to look up a helpfile and checked all the subject headings and things while looking for it, and eventually had to pull up the old website.  I see the little magnifying glass/search buttons so often on apps and websites that I just gloss over them without ever thinking about what they might be used for.  I think if I were a new player six months from now, when this thread is old and buried, I'd just assume the helpfiles weren't on the website.

I think it's a great feature that's being buried beneath a pretty generic and ubiquitous button, and that seems like a shame.

I'd argue that you're used to the way the old site used to work, where helpfiles were auxiliary to the rest of the documentation.  A new player doesn't have that history, so they're going to go through our menu, or use our search button if they're looking for things. 

Also as a reminder players can still access the old website and use the helpfiles there http://old.armageddon.org/

[Lizzie]

Also as a reminder players can still access the old website and use the helpfiles there http://old.armageddon.org/

Yeah I have it bookmarked now. I find it easier to read and navigate. The new site is gorgeous but the old one is "cleaner."

[Morgenes]

Note that the old website will not remain forever.  Once we have confirmed we have moved all documentation over we will be discontinuing it.

[Nyr]

The new site is gorgeous but the old one is "cleaner."

wat

[bcw81]

The new site is gorgeous but the old one is "cleaner."

wat

She's old, Nyr, old people don't know how to appreciate change and newer, fancier things.

<- Smiley to denote my playful jibbing.

[Nyr]

Lizzie, would you be surprised to learn that there are no less than four posts you've made in the past about how the old website was difficult to navigate and in major need of improvement with regards to organization (calling it a "website labyrinth", and even pointing out discrepancies between helpfiles in-game and helpfiles on the site)?  But hey, at least it was clean! 

[AmandaGreathouse]

New walkthrough rocks. I linked my room mate to Mansa's newbie guide two nights ago when he first created his account, and he read all of it, but now I wish I'd thought to/known to point him there! That one looks -much- more appealing and pretty.

[Nyr]

New walkthrough rocks. I linked my room mate to Mansa's newbie guide two nights ago when he first created his account, and he read all of it, but now I wish I'd thought to/known to point him there! That one looks -much- more appealing and pretty.

New players should (hopefully) go through all of the Intro-related stuff that applies to them.

If they're new to MUDs, they'd click that first link.
If they need to know how to connect (even if they aren't new to MUDs), they'd click the second link.
If they need to know more about Zalanthas to get a blurb about what it is, they'd click the third one.
If they want to go ahead and create a character, the fourth link is the way to go.
Once they're making their character and get to the background, they can either click the fifth link or just click on the hyperlink inside the background explanation to go to the What You Know pages.
Once they've gotten into the game, they'd go to the Walkthrough.  (The only thing I see missing there is a reference to "point newbie" as an option, but the walkthrough here addresses actually hopping into the real game in a city and gunning the engine.)

And so on and so forth.

[Booya]

I find the alphabetical bar that comes up the most useful way to find things, when i'm not searching for something specific. I also enjoyed just browsing through the old helpfile list, and now this one and seeing random helpfiles on things I never knew about before. It took me a little while to find out how to get it again, which I did but maybe it would help others looking for a overall helpfile link?

Could an option for A - Z be put on the bottom of the Gameplay and World dropdowns, which brings up that alphabet bar? Maybe just bring it up to start at A.

And about where to put Server time, how about with where the Last Reset will eventually go when it's no longer considered abusable? Unless that's still an unknown, and in that case, I dunno.

[Lizzie]

Lizzie, would you be surprised to learn that there are no less than four posts you've made in the past about how the old website was difficult to navigate and in major need of improvement with regards to organization (calling it a "website labyrinth", and even pointing out discrepancies between helpfiles in-game and helpfiles on the site)?  But hey, at least it was clean!  

I guess next time the staff invites the players to offer their opinions on anything, I'll just assume the staff doesn't mean me. Message received, loud and clear. I might still give it though.

[X-D]

The new site is gorgeous but the old one is "cleaner."

I agree there.

Not saying one is better then the other.

Though I like "cleaner" Not too long back Google changed to be more like Bing, I was one of the people that wrote them to complain...because I always used google because it was plain, clean and did the job. They soon made it so you had the option of classic or new.

For me, I would LOVE if there was an option you could click for a plain version of the new website. I mean, over all, I like the way it works...even if it does make my eyes bleed. To me the website is a tool, I do not decorate my tools in garish colors and engravings, clean and efficiant is all I want or need.

Also, being older does not mean you don't like change, you just tend to not like change for the sake of change, and still expect a certain order and efficiency.

One thing that a menu sidebar actually allows. If I want to browse the RP docs...oh look, a button that says "Roleplay Docs"...right there on the side where I can simply click it.

[FantasyWriter]

As for the location of the 'current server time'.  Honestly I don't like it being on the front page at all.  I don't want it right next to the in game time, as that is there as an aesthetic thing, drawing you into the world, and as a header only on the front page.  I stuck the current server time somewhere where I could find some space, it was a last minute add and not nearly as thought out as I would have liked.  

So, other than putting it up with the current in game time (which I'm not going to do), or move the current in game time (which I'm not going to do) where would you suggest the current server time go?  Only other place I could possibly see is in the footer, or below the footer, but I feel that would hide it even more.

My two cents would be to put it, in white on black, below the footer to balance out the IG time at the top.
You don't necessarily need to see it unless you are looking for it, in most cases, and then you would only need to go all the way down to find it.

I do like it remaining on the front page though, for the same reason that it was added not so long ago: to standardize RPT announcements and to ease the coordination of play-times.

[Nyr]

Lizzie, would you be surprised to learn that there are no less than four posts you've made in the past about how the old website was difficult to navigate and in major need of improvement with regards to organization (calling it a "website labyrinth", and even pointing out discrepancies between helpfiles in-game and helpfiles on the site)?  But hey, at least it was clean!  

I guess next time the staff invites the players to offer their opinions on anything, I'll just assume the staff doesn't mean me. Message received, loud and clear. I might still give it though.

I was pointing out the hypocrisy of your statements with some humor.  Lighten up.  I get that you don't like it, but you'll get over it.

[Lizzie]

Lizzie, would you be surprised to learn that there are no less than four posts you've made in the past about how the old website was difficult to navigate and in major need of improvement with regards to organization (calling it a "website labyrinth", and even pointing out discrepancies between helpfiles in-game and helpfiles on the site)?  But hey, at least it was clean!  

I guess next time the staff invites the players to offer their opinions on anything, I'll just assume the staff doesn't mean me. Message received, loud and clear. I might still give it though.

I was pointing out the hypocrisy of your statements with some humor.  Lighten up.  I get that you don't like it, but you'll get over it.

There is no hypocrisy. I didn't like the way the old website lacked intuitive linking, and I felt it could use improvement with more cross-referencing. A lot of that had been fixed over the years. I still like the old one better than this one. This one, the front page layout is clumsy, unprofessional, unbalanced from a design standpoint. The headline under the logo banner is much too big. The logo banner itself is too tall. The paragraphs in the content text are inconsistent; none of them should have the <strong></strong> tagged, because those bolded tidbits don't make any sense in the context of the paragraphs to be bolded at all, and when they -are- bolded, they lose their crispness against the background.

The font on the top game-time line is horrible, and the line itself shouldn't be above the logo banner; it should be below the menu bar. The entire layout from a bird's eye view looks like someone had a bunch of random stuff they wanted to hurl onto a page, and just hurled them there with no thought to asthetics. Subtitles are too big, there's no bottom vertical scrollbar, and amber text on a black background is so 1990's. You wanted to update the website and bring it to the present; and you have reverted to the stuff I used to design back when the #1 web browser in the world was Netscape and Hotdog was the hypertext editor of choice. I still use Netscape, but I"ve evolved past Hotdog.

There's no hypocrisy. A person can not like two things. Again - if you don't like to read differing opinions about something, don't ask for them. Because THAT is hypocrisy.

[Nyr]

Okay, this is where I'll jump in and say something that is definitely inspired by being annoyed by your opinion, probably more by how you are presenting it.  We put in a lot of hours to work on this.  I know I've put in what I consider to be a decent amount, and that's nothing compared to the lion's share of the work done lately by Morgenes.  We worked within the community, taking feedback and a lot of organizational work from many a staffer and at least one player that provided a slew of assistance.  Morgenes spent more hours working on this than you probably put into your longest-lived character, all while working on database utilities that keep the game going strong.  This has been a project ongoing for a long time, and we're actually quite proud of the work that has been done on it. 

When we see that work pointed out as "clumsy" and "unprofessional" and that it "looks like someone had a bunch of random stuff they wanted to hurl onto a page, and just hurled them there with no thought to aesthetics," we might give that more weight if it didn't come coupled with the revelation that you still use a browser that was defunct and unsupported 5 years ago.

You've moved from light criticism with how the site works (in a snarky, attitudinal tone which we've mostly ignored) to hating the whole thing (in a snarky, attitudinal tone which is a bit more difficult to ignore).  We do want to hear differing opinions, and we're happy to accept criticism and look over ideas for changes to the site.  We've already done some of that--folks had some ideas on what to add or change or fix, even design-wise, and we've made some of those changes.  When we aren't going to change, we say so and we say why.  It's a matter of a difference of opinion at that point, and the average person would probably go with "oh, cool, a free website created by volunteers and managed by volunteers made some design choices I disagree with, but at least they listened and said they weren't going to do that--guess I'll grin and bear it."  And you pressed it even after we said we aren't going to do what you suggested. 

So you've moved on to full-blown hatred of the website.  You know what?

[Dakota]

I just sort of peeked into this thread.. but for the sake of being helpful, I'll have 2 friends 2nite look at the site and see if they can navigate through it w. ease and see what they find difficult.

I personally like the new site a lot but perhaps it could be cleaned up a bit. But such things are very subtle and should be tuned more towards the new visitor / fresh arm player than anything else.

[Cutthroat]

On The Onion yesterday: Website's New Layout Feels Like Deepest Betrayal

On a more serious note, from looking through helper chat logs, people are typically using the helper chat to ask similar types of questions after the website change as they were before it - starting new characters and basic game mechanics, really. There was one question about request tool response time and a couple about accessing the Java client. I think if the layout was cluttered or unintuitive for newbies to navigate that one of the helpers would have heard about it by now.

One thing I would suggest is that on the Java client page (http://armageddon.org/client/) that we put up a link to the intro series at the top. Something like:

"If you're new to MUDs or to Armageddon, click here (http://armageddon.org/intro/new_to_muds.php) for more information on connecting to the game with a MUD client and creating your first character."

Just to cover bases, even if the intro link is right next to the Play! link, because it helps show there is a bit of reading to do before you get started.

[Jeshin]

I'm posting again, how exciting...


First thing is first. The new ARM site is interesting to look at. It's kind of a game to explore it and see what player submissions have been added to what pages to liven them up. In general it's all very stimulating and makes me enjoy that staff took the time to use player art and some pizazz to make MUDs look as exciting as they are.

That being said, it's not really what I would call a great MUD website. Lets take a look at some other webpages both from a MUD I staffed on and other top listed MUDconnector games...

http://www.forgottenkingdoms.org/
http://tsosmud.org/
http://www.bat.org/
http://mdhoria.net/
http://www.jointhesaga.com/ <--- Under construction even!

And Armageddon's page http://armageddon.org/

1. You can immediately tell that the top of the ARM website has more information then any other. We have the date/time IG, Logo, title line with search & login, and links. Naturally the eye travels downward from the graphics for information. It's normal and it should be designed around. Further more the Date/Time line on the top is kind of jarring from a color and presentation perspective with the rest of the page

2. For the most part the other websites are brief. They do not require scrolling, everything can be easily seen without a full monitor browser. I'm not sure why we have big text below the links but it is taking up valuable real estate that could be given to more informative and useful things. (note: Even the otherspace page has everything you'd want to read right at the top though they mistakenly place it above their logo)

3. As I am originally from TSOSmud I'll use that website for this. MUD websites are primarily about conveying information: how to play, helpfiles, upcoming events, policies, whatever. This is a lot of text and the priority of the website should be conveying text. Any graphical flair added should be subtle and in service to your primary goal. The tsosmud site is easily read (except for our fancy font bits) and has a nice graphical background which is thematic but not distracting from the reading.

What's all that mean? Basically the ARM website looks pretty but has something of a layout and presentation problem (in my opinion and as I was a professional graphic and webdesign for years I feel confident in sharing that opinion) that can be easily fixed with some relatively minor tweaks.

Why are these minor tweaks important? It's all about first impressions, user attention, and the amount of time you have to get someone to something they want. As we discuss in the newbie player retention thread, you have a limited amount of time before a new player decides effort outweighs reward and moves onto something more familiar. This is the same with MUD websites. You must balance how cool the website looks against the functionality it immediately presents to a 1st time user.

PS - The adaptive link thingy where it repositions based on the size of your window is nifty but it might be beneficial to reconsider it.

[Maso]

I still use Netscape, but I"ve evolved past Hotdog.

It's people like you that mean I have to work overtime on a regular basis. I usually respect your opinion on a lot of topics...but get yourself a decent browser.

My two cents, as web and graphic designer (who still is a creative director) who spent two years designing for EA Games and occassionally Portal as their lead designer on CRM (how to get people to keep playing their games), is that this is pretty darn good job for a group of volunteers to put together in their own time with only a little professional guidance, probably a lot of mixed opinions back stage (I want it green! No, I want it red!) and a very demanding audience. The information is there, it's accessible, it's well laid out. It's a good job.

As for the graphical nature of it...has a lot of time gone into making it *look* a certain way? Sure. Does this place some of the content into a lesser hierarchal position? Yes. Is there a reason for that? Yes. For older players and mudders, sure you just want to get straight to your information, you want to look up that green-spotted frog like creature to see if you can identify...whatever. For someone who has never played a mud...if they are a gamer then they are coming from a highly graphical world...Their imaginations might need a little nudge. They need something to help them absorb the atmosphere of the game. That's important. In fact, with new players being a priority, you might say it's more important than the 5 seconds longer it takes you to find your help file.

Also, there is no fold. There is nothing wrong with scrolling. I'm pretty sure babies are no born with that instinct. My friend has a small toddler son who tries to swipe (touchscreen style) everything he sees (tv's, books etc). - That one's for you Jeshin.

I don't think it's perfect, I definitely think it could be polished up here and there, but I think it's grand and I'm happy to see the staff get to grips with it (every site needs a settling in period) and see where they go from there. There's really no need for anyone to be rude. They didn't have to open it up for discussion at all (I'm still wondering if it's a good idea actually...too many cooks and all).

[Nyr]

This is appreciated!  Even if we do not make any changes in the near or far future with relation to these suggestions, I am happy to see constructive criticism.

1. You can immediately tell that the top of the ARM website has more information then any other. We have the date/time IG, Logo, title line with search & login, and links. Naturally the eye travels downward from the graphics for information. It's normal and it should be designed around. Further more the Date/Time line on the top is kind of jarring from a color and presentation perspective with the rest of the page

Fair bit of criticism and makes sense from a design perspective, though Morgenes will probably tell you that my feedback on design choices tends to be unhelpful ("it needs to do that thing better" for instance).  It looks like you are saying "get more of it presented in a way that it can all be seen without having to scroll down," with some concern about the date/time at the top as being jarring.  I'm a little on the fence about scrolling being an issue.

2. For the most part the other websites are brief. They do not require scrolling, everything can be easily seen without a full monitor browser. I'm not sure why we have big text below the links but it is taking up valuable real estate that could be given to more informative and useful things. (note: Even the otherspace page has everything you'd want to read right at the top though they mistakenly place it above their logo)

The big text thing is another fair point in presentation, imo, though I will defer to Morgenes on that one, and again, scrolling is something I'm not so sure about (Maso's thoughts on that are similar to mine--I may butt heads with Maso on other ideas, but her design ideas tend to make sense at least to me).

3. As I am originally from TSOSmud I'll use that website for this. MUD websites are primarily about conveying information: how to play, helpfiles, upcoming events, policies, whatever. This is a lot of text and the priority of the website should be conveying text. Any graphical flair added should be subtle and in service to your primary goal. The tsosmud site is easily read (except for our fancy font bits) and has a nice graphical background which is thematic but not distracting from the reading.

I'll defer to Morgenes on formatting.

Why are these minor tweaks important? It's all about first impressions, user attention, and the amount of time you have to get someone to something they want. As we discuss in the newbie player retention thread, you have a limited amount of time before a new player decides effort outweighs reward and moves onto something more familiar. This is the same with MUD websites. You must balance how cool the website looks against the functionality it immediately presents to a 1st time user.

Player retention is important and it is something to look at with regards to the site, but we've had this site up for 11 days and we do not yet have a full month of statistics to review.  Any tweaks to improve new player retention will have to occur after we have a solid month of data.  As it is, we are getting quite a few applications more than we have seen in the past (even high compared to last month, which was one of the highest months on record, so I would assume perhaps that the website's format is working at least well enough to get people information to get into the game), and we'll need to dig down into the data we have AFTER we have a month of information to review.

Thanks for the feedback. This is the kind of feedback that I think we are looking for--constructive criticism rather than vague complaints that it all sucks.  

[LauraMars]

My friend has a small toddler son who tries to swipe (touchscreen style) everything he sees (tv's, books etc). - That one's for you Jeshin.

every little kid I meet tries to swipe everything.

Isn't that crazy?  They have that programmed into their child muscles as the way to interact with the world.

I LOVE THE FUTURE