Code Idea: Speed indications upon entering a room

[Jenred]

I was thinking it would be useful to know the speed someone is coming when they enter, as well as leave.
Currently you know someone's speed when they leave, only.

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So and so has arrived from the south.
So and so runs north.

It might provide a bit more depth of interaction if we could tell their speed upon entering.

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So and so runs in from the south.

[Delirium]

I'd also like to see descriptive movement for non humanoid npcs. Scurry, crawl, lumber, slither..

[bcw81]

But then how can I sneak into a room and walk out all casual when they see me? If this goes in everyone will know I am a dirty sneak/thief/etc!

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

I think that was originally put in there for a reason, so... maybe the more observant half or, well probably one-third of the pc population ought to be able to see someone sneaking badly into the room or walking? And more people would notice someone >n (running as fast as they seem to be able to go, screaming and flailing their arms around), if not outright have their attention drawn towards them since they are in fact running at speeds that a beetle has a hard time keeping up with. But I can see half of giants missing that though.

[Jenred]

There is no current distinction between someone being (successfully) seen sneaking into a room, walking into a room, running into a room, flying into a room. It's all "So and so has arrived from (direction)".

As far as I know, there isn't even a way to tell if the person you noticed enter, is sneaking.
So you might see them enter and it will look just like any normal person entering, when in fact they were sneaking.

I think there should be some distinction.

[Harmless]

guild sniffers.

edit: okay fine, I'll put in an actual argument for why this idea sucks balls.

Counterpoint 1:  When someone is coming into a room you're in, you don't watch them come in. At some point, you notice them, you see them. Simeultaneously, they notice you and see you. They stop what they were doing.

They saw you, they broke their stride then. The player now has a choice of how to react. Do I keep CREEPING ALONG STEALTHILY or do I speed up a bit and look casual?

THAT decision, in reality, takes a second at longest. In a mud it takes longer, cause you have to type "walk" and or type "stop" too, it's hard.

So, no, you're wrong, this shouldn't be changed, it was made this way for a reason, a damn good reason.

this GDB has to stop hating on stealth classes.

Counterpoint 2:  If you want this, just use the watch skill. If you're watching where they are coming from, you will see the way they're moving. The solution is built in.

[musashi]

Um, if you're in a room, and one person runs in ... while the other person ... walks in ... you seriously think you won't notice the difference?

I'm largely ambiviliant to the suggestion either way, but to say people are somehow blind to the speed at which things approach them ... and can only percieve the speed at which things depart ... c'mon. 

[Sephiroto]

I like this idea partly because people have a tendency to sneak from an unpopulated room into populated room because they think that nobody will be able to tell if they fail their stealth roll.  I think if Billy Bob fails his stealth roll into Lord Fancy Pant's tavern, there should be a greater chance for negative consequences.  Due to the current implementation of movement, however, his failure always goes unnoticed.

[musashi]

Yeah. I do that. I imagine quite a few people do.

I wouldn't mind seeing it changed though.

[Harmless]

Um, if you're in a room, and one person runs in ... while the other person ... walks in ... you seriously think you won't notice the difference?

I'm largely ambiviliant to the suggestion either way, but to say people are somehow blind to the speed at which things approach them ... and can only percieve the speed at which things depart ... c'mon. 

Fine, I agree. Run should show as "runs in from the west."

But sneaking shouldn't, not in busy city streets. In someone's bedroom, sure, but that's creeping around like a pervert kind of sneaking, whereas I think most of the time if they're seen it's safely assumed they were sneaking.

But in the city streets my points are sound. You win for running but this isn't true for city sneak.

[Morrolan]

Fine, I agree. Run should show as "runs in from the west."

Arrives from the west, running.

Otherwise, I'll need to change my triggers.

The meditation master arrives from the west, running.

[musashi]

But in the city streets my points are sound. You win for running but this isn't true for city sneak.

I feel like it should be all one way or all the other. Either sneaking fails echo on the entrance and the departure as sneaking attempts, or they echo as walking. I don't see any compelling reason to have it half way as it is now. Looks more like simple oversight no one ever cared enough to fix.

[Harmless]

And I don't. I always appreciated this feature because it made stealthing less of a fucking headache. Please stop trying to cramp my style. You already have coded ways to get this info, you're just asking for ez narc mode.

[musashi]

Whether or not you appreciate a "feature" of the game,  is not what I was replying to. I was replying to this:

But in the city streets my points are sound.

You don't ... really have any points ... you have a preference. And that's cool, but it's not an argument.

I don't mind that you like having the benefit of never seeming like you failed a sneak attempt when entering a room, just don't try to defend it with stuff like "but in RL no one ever sees you approach!" that's just ... silly.

You're far better off trying to appeal to playability than realism, in this case.

[hyzhenhok]

But in the city streets my points are sound. You win for running but this isn't true for city sneak.

I feel like it should be all one way or all the other. Either sneaking fails echo on the entrance and the departure as sneaking attempts, or they echo as walking. I don't see any compelling reason to have it half way as it is now. Looks more like simple oversight no one ever cared enough to fix.

I would like to be able to see how someone has moved into a room without having to watch in the direction they came from. But I would also to see detection of stealth usage to be more similar to other sneaky skills, where failure could be disguised as a normal action unless the observer is perceptive/watchful.

[Harmless]

City "sneaking" doesn't look like anything, dude. It's walking in a busy street.

When you walk in NY with an average of 30 people passing you per city block, do you take special notice of everybody you pass? (hint: if you didn't, then you didn't "see" them. If you can't tell a cop even one useful descriptor for someone you passed besides "he lookie like a man" then you failed your scan and listen skills and didn't see the dude. This happens on a daily basis in cities. People don't like being looked at most of the time.

OR, as I said, you DID see them, made eye contact, and they immediately were no longer sneaking.

Hyzhenhok: if you want that, then sneakers get an equal chance to see if their sneak attempt was noticed as one or not.

Edit: but really, this request is total bullshit. If you're in a room, how do we know which direction your facing if you're not using the watch skill? Someone comes up to you from the side, and in most cases, they see you before you see them. By most cases, I mean >50%, because YOU DO NOT HAVE EYES IN THE BACK OF YOUR HEAD. they saw you first, so THEY got to decide how to present themself to you when they came in. Were they sneaking before? Maybe, but since they walked into your area and not vice versa, they could just change their gait in that split second and how would you know if they were being sneaky-peaky? Well, you would know if you used the watch skill, but otherwise, it's arbitrary to decide whether or not you saw them first.

This whole thread pisses me off. Reminds me of Kyros. When you guys make requests like this, you know what you're doing. You are asking for something totally unreasonable, without even thinking about it, trolling for debate that leads to 'compromise' in the form of a nerf to those pesky stealth classes you just hate so darn much! Stealth isn't broken, it never was, and there is no place for compromise in this debate. Use the watch skill. Stop whining.

[musashi]

That's like ... your opinion man. And it happens to fail to account for situations where perhaps the person in the room you're sneaking into is behind you when walk by, thus you don't in fact see them, immediately make eye contact, and automagickally stop sneaking to avoid detection. It's not as if positions relative to a room are a coded thing.

And even if one were to grant all your assumptions and assertions (which I don't), as it turns out city sneak is not only usable on city streets that are described as being crowded. It's just as usable in rooms that are described as being unoccupied (alleys, hallways, apartments, etc). So at best you're talking hyperbole.

Which again, is why I say it's better if you just stick of citing playability for sneaky types, rather than trying to drum up nonsense real life examples that don't actually map onto reality, or the game; it makes your position look weaker than it otherwise might be.

I would like to be able to see how someone has moved into a room without having to watch in the direction they came from. But I would also to see detection of stealth usage to be more similar to other sneaky skills, where failure could be disguised as a normal action unless the observer is perceptive/watchful.

I like that idea.

[Harmless]

That's like ... your opinion man. And it happens to fail to account for situations where perhaps the person in the room you're sneaking into is behind you when walk by, thus you don't in fact see them, immediately make eye contact, and automagickally stop sneaking to avoid detection. It's not as if positions relative to a room are a coded thing.

And even if one were to grant all your assumptions and assertions (which I don't), as it turns out city sneak is not only usable on city streets that are described as being crowded. It's just as usable in rooms that are described as being unoccupied (alleys, hallways, apartments, etc). So at best you're talking hyperbole.

Which again, is why I say it's better if you just stick of citing playability for sneaky types, rather than trying to drum up nonsense real life examples that don't actually map onto reality, or the game; it makes your position look weaker than it otherwise might be.

I am no longer debating this point with you because you and I are both talking out of our asses and you know it. This thread was better off as a request to the imms, not as public discussion. There is nothing to discuss here.

[Fredd]

But in the city streets my points are sound. You win for running but this isn't true for city sneak.

I feel like it should be all one way or all the other. Either sneaking fails echo on the entrance and the departure as sneaking attempts, or they echo as walking. I don't see any compelling reason to have it half way as it is now. Looks more like simple oversight no one ever cared enough to fix.

The idea of it is basically when someone is sneaking into a room, they are trying to not draw attention to themselves. So walking with a group of vnpc's, so on.

[musashi]

I am no longer debating this point with you because you and I are both talking out of our asses and you know it. This thread was better off as a request to the imms, not as public discussion. There is nothing to discuss here.

Oh wait, I get it! Your position is unassailable!  

The idea of it is basically when someone is sneaking into a room, they are trying to not draw attention to themselves. So walking with a group of vnpc's, so on.

Yeah I get the idea ... but then why is it they can't walk out with a group of vnpc's and so on as well? There really isn't a reason why this only works for entrances and not exits. I'm not in principle opposed to the idea of failed sneak attempts looking like normal movement attempts ... I just think that whether they look that way or not, it should be applied evenly to someone entering, and exiting a room.

[Sav]

as it turns out city sneak is not only usable on city streets that are described as being crowded. It's just as usable in rooms that are described as being unoccupied (alleys, hallways, apartments, etc).

Solution: Hire courtesans to circle you at all times, thereby rendering you invisible.



Shhh you can't see me I'm blending.

[musashi]

You are wise.

[Jenred]

Edit: but really, this request is total bullshit. If you're in a room, how do we know which direction your facing if you're not using the watch skill? Someone comes up to you from the side, and in most cases, they see you before you see them. By most cases, I mean >50%, because YOU DO NOT HAVE EYES IN THE BACK OF YOUR HEAD. they saw you first, so THEY got to decide how to present themself to you when they came in. Were they sneaking before? Maybe, but since they walked into your area and not vice versa, they could just change their gait in that split second and how would you know if they were being sneaky-peaky? Well, you would know if you used the watch skill, but otherwise, it's arbitrary to decide whether or not you saw them first.

This whole thread pisses me off. Reminds me of Kyros. When you guys make requests like this, you know what you're doing. You are asking for something totally unreasonable, without even thinking about it, trolling for debate that leads to 'compromise' in the form of a nerf to those pesky stealth classes you just hate so darn much! Stealth isn't broken, it never was, and there is no place for compromise in this debate. Use the watch skill. Stop whining.

No this thread is not total "bullshit".
You apparently play a sneaking character and are taking personal offense at something that is designed to keep the code consistent (and when I suggested it, entirely aimed at PCs that are running).
By your logic, there should be no indication of how a PC leaves either, because, by your logic, there is no way to indicate which way you are looking.
Frankly there should be no enter/exit messages at all. The code doesn't know if I'm looking at a door, so how would I know if a PC left?

It is not unreasonable to want to know something that helps impact the game.
If a character comes running in, and I was aware of it by the same message I get when they leave, my character might pay attention to them.

Furthermore, I'm not suggesting that the speed of characters should be indicated even if they are sneaking.
If they are sneaking, and my character didn't notice them, then I wouldn't see them anyways.
If they are sneaking and they fail a sneak check, it should give a similar message to when they leave and fail a sneak check (leaves 'stealthily' or what not).

Im for code consistency. If we have indicators of speed when players leave a room, we should have them when they enter.

[Sephiroto]

City "sneaking" doesn't look like anything, dude. It's walking in a busy street.

Unless the street is not busy.  In which case, it is very different.

[X-D]

I don't see any problem with having entering speed...in fact, I think it should exist.

I have many times dealt with this.

Amos enters the room from the south.
2 seconds later
Amos runs north.
think Huh, wonder why he is running.
A giant ugly mekillot arrives from the south.
think Oh.
FLEE.

Be nice to know Amos ran into the room...then I know to look behind him...same as you would IRL.