Code Idea: Speed indications upon entering a room

[Jenred]

I was thinking it would be useful to know the speed someone is coming when they enter, as well as leave.
Currently you know someone's speed when they leave, only.

Code Select Expand


So and so has arrived from the south.
So and so runs north.

It might provide a bit more depth of interaction if we could tell their speed upon entering.

Code Select Expand


So and so runs in from the south.

[Delirium]

I'd also like to see descriptive movement for non humanoid npcs. Scurry, crawl, lumber, slither..

[bcw81]

But then how can I sneak into a room and walk out all casual when they see me? If this goes in everyone will know I am a dirty sneak/thief/etc!

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

I think that was originally put in there for a reason, so... maybe the more observant half or, well probably one-third of the pc population ought to be able to see someone sneaking badly into the room or walking? And more people would notice someone >n (running as fast as they seem to be able to go, screaming and flailing their arms around), if not outright have their attention drawn towards them since they are in fact running at speeds that a beetle has a hard time keeping up with. But I can see half of giants missing that though.

[Jenred]

There is no current distinction between someone being (successfully) seen sneaking into a room, walking into a room, running into a room, flying into a room. It's all "So and so has arrived from (direction)".

As far as I know, there isn't even a way to tell if the person you noticed enter, is sneaking.
So you might see them enter and it will look just like any normal person entering, when in fact they were sneaking.

I think there should be some distinction.

[Harmless]

guild sniffers.

edit: okay fine, I'll put in an actual argument for why this idea sucks balls.

Counterpoint 1:  When someone is coming into a room you're in, you don't watch them come in. At some point, you notice them, you see them. Simeultaneously, they notice you and see you. They stop what they were doing.

They saw you, they broke their stride then. The player now has a choice of how to react. Do I keep CREEPING ALONG STEALTHILY or do I speed up a bit and look casual?

THAT decision, in reality, takes a second at longest. In a mud it takes longer, cause you have to type "walk" and or type "stop" too, it's hard.

So, no, you're wrong, this shouldn't be changed, it was made this way for a reason, a damn good reason.

this GDB has to stop hating on stealth classes.

Counterpoint 2:  If you want this, just use the watch skill. If you're watching where they are coming from, you will see the way they're moving. The solution is built in.

[musashi]

Um, if you're in a room, and one person runs in ... while the other person ... walks in ... you seriously think you won't notice the difference?

I'm largely ambiviliant to the suggestion either way, but to say people are somehow blind to the speed at which things approach them ... and can only percieve the speed at which things depart ... c'mon. 

[Sephiroto]

I like this idea partly because people have a tendency to sneak from an unpopulated room into populated room because they think that nobody will be able to tell if they fail their stealth roll.  I think if Billy Bob fails his stealth roll into Lord Fancy Pant's tavern, there should be a greater chance for negative consequences.  Due to the current implementation of movement, however, his failure always goes unnoticed.

[musashi]

Yeah. I do that. I imagine quite a few people do.

I wouldn't mind seeing it changed though.

[Harmless]

Um, if you're in a room, and one person runs in ... while the other person ... walks in ... you seriously think you won't notice the difference?

I'm largely ambiviliant to the suggestion either way, but to say people are somehow blind to the speed at which things approach them ... and can only percieve the speed at which things depart ... c'mon. 

Fine, I agree. Run should show as "runs in from the west."

But sneaking shouldn't, not in busy city streets. In someone's bedroom, sure, but that's creeping around like a pervert kind of sneaking, whereas I think most of the time if they're seen it's safely assumed they were sneaking.

But in the city streets my points are sound. You win for running but this isn't true for city sneak.

[Morrolan]

Fine, I agree. Run should show as "runs in from the west."

Arrives from the west, running.

Otherwise, I'll need to change my triggers.

The meditation master arrives from the west, running.

[musashi]

But in the city streets my points are sound. You win for running but this isn't true for city sneak.

I feel like it should be all one way or all the other. Either sneaking fails echo on the entrance and the departure as sneaking attempts, or they echo as walking. I don't see any compelling reason to have it half way as it is now. Looks more like simple oversight no one ever cared enough to fix.

[Harmless]

And I don't. I always appreciated this feature because it made stealthing less of a fucking headache. Please stop trying to cramp my style. You already have coded ways to get this info, you're just asking for ez narc mode.

[musashi]

Whether or not you appreciate a "feature" of the game,  is not what I was replying to. I was replying to this:

But in the city streets my points are sound.

You don't ... really have any points ... you have a preference. And that's cool, but it's not an argument.

I don't mind that you like having the benefit of never seeming like you failed a sneak attempt when entering a room, just don't try to defend it with stuff like "but in RL no one ever sees you approach!" that's just ... silly.

You're far better off trying to appeal to playability than realism, in this case.

[hyzhenhok]

But in the city streets my points are sound. You win for running but this isn't true for city sneak.

I feel like it should be all one way or all the other. Either sneaking fails echo on the entrance and the departure as sneaking attempts, or they echo as walking. I don't see any compelling reason to have it half way as it is now. Looks more like simple oversight no one ever cared enough to fix.

I would like to be able to see how someone has moved into a room without having to watch in the direction they came from. But I would also to see detection of stealth usage to be more similar to other sneaky skills, where failure could be disguised as a normal action unless the observer is perceptive/watchful.

[Harmless]

City "sneaking" doesn't look like anything, dude. It's walking in a busy street.

When you walk in NY with an average of 30 people passing you per city block, do you take special notice of everybody you pass? (hint: if you didn't, then you didn't "see" them. If you can't tell a cop even one useful descriptor for someone you passed besides "he lookie like a man" then you failed your scan and listen skills and didn't see the dude. This happens on a daily basis in cities. People don't like being looked at most of the time.

OR, as I said, you DID see them, made eye contact, and they immediately were no longer sneaking.

Hyzhenhok: if you want that, then sneakers get an equal chance to see if their sneak attempt was noticed as one or not.

Edit: but really, this request is total bullshit. If you're in a room, how do we know which direction your facing if you're not using the watch skill? Someone comes up to you from the side, and in most cases, they see you before you see them. By most cases, I mean >50%, because YOU DO NOT HAVE EYES IN THE BACK OF YOUR HEAD. they saw you first, so THEY got to decide how to present themself to you when they came in. Were they sneaking before? Maybe, but since they walked into your area and not vice versa, they could just change their gait in that split second and how would you know if they were being sneaky-peaky? Well, you would know if you used the watch skill, but otherwise, it's arbitrary to decide whether or not you saw them first.

This whole thread pisses me off. Reminds me of Kyros. When you guys make requests like this, you know what you're doing. You are asking for something totally unreasonable, without even thinking about it, trolling for debate that leads to 'compromise' in the form of a nerf to those pesky stealth classes you just hate so darn much! Stealth isn't broken, it never was, and there is no place for compromise in this debate. Use the watch skill. Stop whining.

[musashi]

That's like ... your opinion man. And it happens to fail to account for situations where perhaps the person in the room you're sneaking into is behind you when walk by, thus you don't in fact see them, immediately make eye contact, and automagickally stop sneaking to avoid detection. It's not as if positions relative to a room are a coded thing.

And even if one were to grant all your assumptions and assertions (which I don't), as it turns out city sneak is not only usable on city streets that are described as being crowded. It's just as usable in rooms that are described as being unoccupied (alleys, hallways, apartments, etc). So at best you're talking hyperbole.

Which again, is why I say it's better if you just stick of citing playability for sneaky types, rather than trying to drum up nonsense real life examples that don't actually map onto reality, or the game; it makes your position look weaker than it otherwise might be.

I would like to be able to see how someone has moved into a room without having to watch in the direction they came from. But I would also to see detection of stealth usage to be more similar to other sneaky skills, where failure could be disguised as a normal action unless the observer is perceptive/watchful.

I like that idea.

[Harmless]

That's like ... your opinion man. And it happens to fail to account for situations where perhaps the person in the room you're sneaking into is behind you when walk by, thus you don't in fact see them, immediately make eye contact, and automagickally stop sneaking to avoid detection. It's not as if positions relative to a room are a coded thing.

And even if one were to grant all your assumptions and assertions (which I don't), as it turns out city sneak is not only usable on city streets that are described as being crowded. It's just as usable in rooms that are described as being unoccupied (alleys, hallways, apartments, etc). So at best you're talking hyperbole.

Which again, is why I say it's better if you just stick of citing playability for sneaky types, rather than trying to drum up nonsense real life examples that don't actually map onto reality, or the game; it makes your position look weaker than it otherwise might be.

I am no longer debating this point with you because you and I are both talking out of our asses and you know it. This thread was better off as a request to the imms, not as public discussion. There is nothing to discuss here.

[Fredd]

But in the city streets my points are sound. You win for running but this isn't true for city sneak.

I feel like it should be all one way or all the other. Either sneaking fails echo on the entrance and the departure as sneaking attempts, or they echo as walking. I don't see any compelling reason to have it half way as it is now. Looks more like simple oversight no one ever cared enough to fix.

The idea of it is basically when someone is sneaking into a room, they are trying to not draw attention to themselves. So walking with a group of vnpc's, so on.

[musashi]

I am no longer debating this point with you because you and I are both talking out of our asses and you know it. This thread was better off as a request to the imms, not as public discussion. There is nothing to discuss here.

Oh wait, I get it! Your position is unassailable!  

The idea of it is basically when someone is sneaking into a room, they are trying to not draw attention to themselves. So walking with a group of vnpc's, so on.

Yeah I get the idea ... but then why is it they can't walk out with a group of vnpc's and so on as well? There really isn't a reason why this only works for entrances and not exits. I'm not in principle opposed to the idea of failed sneak attempts looking like normal movement attempts ... I just think that whether they look that way or not, it should be applied evenly to someone entering, and exiting a room.

[Sav]

as it turns out city sneak is not only usable on city streets that are described as being crowded. It's just as usable in rooms that are described as being unoccupied (alleys, hallways, apartments, etc).

Solution: Hire courtesans to circle you at all times, thereby rendering you invisible.



Shhh you can't see me I'm blending.

[musashi]

You are wise.

[Jenred]

Edit: but really, this request is total bullshit. If you're in a room, how do we know which direction your facing if you're not using the watch skill? Someone comes up to you from the side, and in most cases, they see you before you see them. By most cases, I mean >50%, because YOU DO NOT HAVE EYES IN THE BACK OF YOUR HEAD. they saw you first, so THEY got to decide how to present themself to you when they came in. Were they sneaking before? Maybe, but since they walked into your area and not vice versa, they could just change their gait in that split second and how would you know if they were being sneaky-peaky? Well, you would know if you used the watch skill, but otherwise, it's arbitrary to decide whether or not you saw them first.

This whole thread pisses me off. Reminds me of Kyros. When you guys make requests like this, you know what you're doing. You are asking for something totally unreasonable, without even thinking about it, trolling for debate that leads to 'compromise' in the form of a nerf to those pesky stealth classes you just hate so darn much! Stealth isn't broken, it never was, and there is no place for compromise in this debate. Use the watch skill. Stop whining.

No this thread is not total "bullshit".
You apparently play a sneaking character and are taking personal offense at something that is designed to keep the code consistent (and when I suggested it, entirely aimed at PCs that are running).
By your logic, there should be no indication of how a PC leaves either, because, by your logic, there is no way to indicate which way you are looking.
Frankly there should be no enter/exit messages at all. The code doesn't know if I'm looking at a door, so how would I know if a PC left?

It is not unreasonable to want to know something that helps impact the game.
If a character comes running in, and I was aware of it by the same message I get when they leave, my character might pay attention to them.

Furthermore, I'm not suggesting that the speed of characters should be indicated even if they are sneaking.
If they are sneaking, and my character didn't notice them, then I wouldn't see them anyways.
If they are sneaking and they fail a sneak check, it should give a similar message to when they leave and fail a sneak check (leaves 'stealthily' or what not).

Im for code consistency. If we have indicators of speed when players leave a room, we should have them when they enter.

[Sephiroto]

City "sneaking" doesn't look like anything, dude. It's walking in a busy street.

Unless the street is not busy.  In which case, it is very different.

[X-D]

I don't see any problem with having entering speed...in fact, I think it should exist.

I have many times dealt with this.

Amos enters the room from the south.
2 seconds later
Amos runs north.
think Huh, wonder why he is running.
A giant ugly mekillot arrives from the south.
think Oh.
FLEE.

Be nice to know Amos ran into the room...then I know to look behind him...same as you would IRL.

[maxid]

I am no longer debating this point with you because you and I are both talking out of our asses and you know it. This thread was better off as a request to the imms, not as public discussion. There is nothing to discuss here.

Interpretation: I'm losing this argument and I'm having an increasingly hard time justifying it, therefore I'm going to declare this thread bullshit and remove myself from it.

There are many status effects which should be very visible, flying was mentioned for example. 

As for sneaking... Your argument sucks because -- Failing to blend in is not 'walking with the crowd' that's succeeding at blending in.  Failing to blend in would be looking around surreptitiously trying to stay with people awkwardly, or any number of other things where you did not, in fact, pass your sneak check.  If you pass your sneak check there's no message.  If you fuck it up, you look like you're sneaking.  This is not hard to understand, and becomes consistent with leave echoes.

[Harmless]

Okay, maxid + musashi + jenred. I have been proven wrong by the moral majority and so we shall see stealth guilds receive yet another nerf.







*sigh*

[maxid]

Okay, maxid + musashi + jenred. I have been proven wrong with logic.

FTFY

[AmandaGreathouse]

Okay, maxid + musashi + jenred. I have been proven wrong by the moral majority and so we shall see stealth guilds receive yet another nerf.







*sigh*

I really fail to see how this would be a nerf. If you successfully managed to sneak in, you wouldn't be seen. If you were trying to skulk around shiftily and failed at it, I think this should be seen, the same as if you ran in, because you see it on leaving, and you would also notice it on approach, and, as I said a second ago, if you were successful with your sneaking, nobody would see you sneak in.

[Jenred]

Be nice to know Amos ran into the room...then I know to look behind him...same as you would IRL.

That was my main motivation for the idea.
All too often people come running in, and I have no idea.
Especially dangerous when its a GROUP of people, all running. Something that would be noticeable.

[musashi]

Okay, maxid + musashi + jenred. I have been proven wrong by the moral majority and so we shall see stealth guilds receive yet another nerf.







*sigh*

*pat pat* We (or at least I) am not disagreeing with you because I think you're a dumbass or anything. I just don't like the particular position you put forward here. In the other thread on what breaks hide and getting an indicator when it happens, I totally agree with your take on things. Just depends on the topic and the strength of the argument put forward. Don't take it too hard.  

[Harmless]

No problem. I enjoy these debates. In the end, the game evolves and becomes better. I have faith in that. Maybe get emotional here and there but there's a reason for that.

Unlike you, or X-D, or a lot of the folks who contribute intelligently to these debates, I am a shitty n00b. I've never pulled it off, the whole stealth guild vs. warrior struggle.

When the experts come along and start announcing more ways that me pulling anything off is just going to get a little harder, I get upset that the game is just getting harder when I haven't even begun to figure it out yet.

But in the end I'll enjoy this shit just as much anyway, so my perceived inferiority becomes irrelevant. I'll just keep playing until I figure it out. Even if after learning to jump through 20 hoops there's a 21st there, it just adds to replayability.

[Jenred]

Im not sure how you failing a sneak into a room and players noticing it (just like they would when you'd leave) in anyway "ruins something for you".

[Harmless]

It wouldn't ruin anything for me. Not sure where you're quoting me but I no longer feel that way about it, as I just said in my last post.

[Jenred]

more ways that me pulling anything off is just going to get a little harder

I don't see how you failing a stealth entry check into a room and players noticing it (like they would when you leave) is more ways of you "pulling anything off" becoming harder.

[Harmless]

more ways that me pulling anything off is just going to get a little harder

I don't see how you failing a stealth entry check into a room and players noticing it (like they would when you leave) is more ways of you "pulling anything off" becoming harder.

Guildsniffing, I thought we said that at the very beginning of this thread...?

[Jenred]

So you intentionally abuse the fact that you can enter a room while sneaking and not be noticed (if failed), but don't use it on the way out, when you know you can be detected if you fail?

[maxid]

Yeah that seems twinky as fuck, bro.

[RogueGunslinger]

I've done it.

[Harmless]

It's pretty hard to voluntarily chunk in a "w" with sneak on after walking into a room with someone.

Particularly with the way people jam the "look" command out there like a reflex.

What else am I going to do? The asshole just looked at me, I'm not going to just keep creeping along like a ninja. That's what I'm talking about.

Now, does he get the right to know if I was sneaking or not on my way in? As I have conceded, maybe he does. I gave up on that debate, as posted above.

Edit: DOUBLE MEH.

[maxid]

Calm down Harmless, we're a no-cursing MUD now.

[Morrolan]

I've done it.

Yup. I've walked in on someone, seen them, and straightened my cloak before walking normally out of there.

If it changed, I don't mind so much. But I've been on both sides of this one.

Twinky as fuck? I do not think that word means what you think it means.

[musashi]

I've done it.

I've totally done it.

[Sephiroto]

I've done it more times than I can remember too, but in more recent years I've been overt about it by using move emotes like "east(ducking quietly into the tavern)" when entering occupied rooms.  I do this because if you fail your stealth people see you come in to the room but it isn't obvious that you were sneaking (or running for that matter).  If you sneak into a room full of people and it is obvious to them that you were doing it poorly, I think it should raise some eyebrows.

[Fnord]

I'm surprised this is even being debated. It's a no brainer. You get a speed echo leaving, why not entering too?

[Quell]

I'm surprised this is even being debated. It's a no brainer. You get a speed echo leaving, why not entering too?

There are lots of good ideas that get debated because you need to make the case that it's worth the effort to mess with the code.

That said, this would be a fairly simple code change would it not?

[X-D]

Only staff can answer that of course...I could see it going both ways, depending on how the code handles such things.

It may be that it decides the delay from entering a room before you leave a room, which would be why it shows only on leaving.

Making the enter message the same as the leave message could be as simple as a script to look backwards and change it to an actual code overhaul.

Of course, I myself would not mind if movement got changed to before and after, splitting the delay in half to each side to do so. But I suppose that is an entire different thread.

[Rumor]

I like the idea and I play a stealth based character.  The majority of the ones I've played have been that sort, too.  If I'm sneaking and entering the room and I fail my roll or someone is just observant, it should say something to the effect of "So and so arrives from the east, attempting to go unnoticed."  Something along those lines.  It sets the mood for interactions, depending on where you're at, too.  If you're in your apartment and the door is open and someone comes in like that, it's a lot different than if they just walked in, I would think.

[musashi]

It sets the mood for interactions, depending on where you're at, too.

Yup. I can see the mood now.

> close cloak
> close belt
> draw knife
> watch elf

[BleakOne]

I'm pro-echoing upon entering the room.

While you can add 'screaming wildly and flapping his arms about' if you run into the room being chased by... oh... for example a wall of water (not that such a thing would ever happen IG... or would it?) some of us are not good at writing out descriptive movement emotes while running for our PC's lives.

[evil_erdlu]

You may call me stupid, but I wasn't aware that failed sneaky entrances didn't echo differently.

My only sneaky character lived in 'rinth so I thought they walked in when they 'arrive'.

I'd like it changed showing how you entered, if possible.

[Inks]

I am pro entry echos, except city stealth. Overall city stealth is about blending in.

[evil_erdlu]

I am pro entry echos, except city stealth. Overall city stealth is about blending in.

So? Imagine you're walking at a busy street with a couple friends, someone starts to walk a bit too close to your group. You have your wallet at the back pocket of your trousers. Your backpack's front zipper can be opened from behind. Maybe your daughter's walking beside you and you worry the idiot man walking too close would bump into her. Or your girlfriend's walking by you and *testosterone* what is that fucker doing? Or you and friends did beat up those idiots they way they deserved yesterday night at the bar in the same street and instinctively you await revenge. So you get nervous and cast an irritated glance in the least. Say "What?" to the stranger's face? Stop suddenly and watch him until he passes by?

You try to blend in a crowd, the crowd finds you a stranger and responds. The usual flow of the crowd is distorted momentarily because the crowd you're trying to blend into is responding. More hassle than a simple walking happens, so the failed sneak.

If I were the coder, anytime someone failed a sneak I'd echo it in 'bold'..

[Inks]

It's not assassins creed personal space invading stealth. Though that pic was awesome earlier. Its not about following one group of people either, its about slipping through a crowd. Ever been to a market in India? I imagine Allanak to be like all day.

The only time echoing sneak entry is important is in the wilderness, if you see some guy sneaking toward you through the scrublands you need to react accordingly. You are all alone out there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSO0lCO3TIg

[evil_erdlu]

Again, so? When you fail to slip through, you disturbed the usual flow of the crowd. And when it's a crowded market, you need to slip through when you 'walk'.. I'm from Turkey, we have public bazaars exactly like India, though a bit less crowded. We do our grocery shopping in the bazaar on Thursdays. You do more than slipping through, you 'blend' when you sneak. To blend, you get close. When you blend in disruptively, you get noticed.

Edited to add: This is not the bazaar we shop at, but it's in the same city, very close to my location; İncirli Ankara, Turkey...

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13293493

[Inks]

Yeah but you are missing the point, with all the people around there is no way you would notice someone slipping through a crowd a distance away from you, no matter how clumsily they were doing it, unless they were a HG. Would you notice when they were closer, as your example implies? Of course, but that's how stealth works now, if you have someone sneaking out of the same room as you it is obvious.

[evil_erdlu]

You would, if you had the counter skill and you were alert - a.k.a. using the skill -. No one can steal from those sellers in our bazaar, because sellers are alert. Police sometimes arrives because once in a while people start selling contraband cigarettes at makeshift stands and I saw it several times. Police catches them no matter how sneaky they are. Because police knows the drill.

If your character is so inept that even folks without 'listen on' saw you sneak; heh, you bumped into another person in your attempts to sneak.

Another point; 90% of all places you sneak aren't that crowded. Not all alleys are packed with folks. 'Rinth is nearly empty. Warrens aren't that crowded. I believe even places like parts of Dark Moon Road aren't as crowded as a sneaker would like it to be. Then 'sneak' has its normal definition. I don't think any character only sneaks in the bazaars, taverns and main roads.

[Harmless]

I don't think the community of paranoid PCs react appropriately to sneaking PCs. There should be ragamuffin NPCs skulking everywhere at all times, but the code doesn't show that. I objected to this on the grounds that overreacting to it ruins the feel of city stealth, which is "blending," so for that reason I agree with Inks.

Secondly, yes, the rinth is emptier, but there is little to no foot traffic there so any arriving PC is suspect regardless of their moving type.

[evil_erdlu]

Ragamuffin NPCs have their sneak+hide maxxed. You can't see them without max scan+listen

No no.. I won't soften my attitude about this subject. "I don't sneak, I blend."?? What's next? "I don't pickpocket. I copped for a feel.", "I forgot my apartment keys inside, Lord Templar","I was trying to see inside her shirt, not inside her money pouch.", "This is medicinal spice."....

When you fail a sneak attempt, you didn't instead walk. You failed, miserably. Someone good enough to see it saw it. Period. When you fail peek, people notice. When you fail steal, people notice. When you fail bash, people notice because you are rolling on the floor. When you fail something, it is a failure. In addition to all I said before, this is my last point to add. I do not understand why a failure should be ignored.

[Harmless]

Well, I don't agree at all with a lot of your assumptions and disagree entirely with your use of the slippery slope argument. I have given my reasoning in previous posts.

[evil_erdlu]

Ragamuffin NPCs have their sneak+hide maxxed. You can't see them without max scan+listen

No no.. I won't soften my attitude about this subject. "I don't sneak, I blend."?? What's next? "I don't pickpocket. I copped for a feel.", "I forgot my apartment keys inside, Lord Templar","I was trying to see inside her shirt, not inside her money pouch.", "This is medicinal spice."....

Just in case it's not understood. This portion is just a joke. My sense of humor may sometimes be a little alien.