How does babby get ignoreded?

[Dalmeth]

I don't know. Just a difference of vision I guess. My feeling is, in a world where resources are scarce, and labor is more plentiful than jobs most people aren't important enough that they'd take on the trouble or expense of providing daycare. I think you'd be lucky not to be fired the second you start to show.

Now if one were to promise said child like some kind of indenture that might do it. But they'd probably have your brat washing dishes as soon as it could stand next to the sand barrel,

Eh?  I think you're stuck in the idea of modern child-care services.  Think more along the lines of, "Yes, yes, I'll keep the little buggers busy while I cook up stew from the last scrab brought in."

They may get the kids to do small jobs, but that's more because there are no books, TV, or any number of other goodies we have today.  Essentially, it'll be waitstaff looking to find something to keep the kids out from under foot, rather than actually profit from their presence.

I think either you didn't read my post, or I am not understanding yours.

In the last decade of prosperity in 20th Century America, a warm and fuzzy time and place very few companies provided child-care. Why would Borsail?

I also think you're in the 20th Century mode of family life and professional life being separate.  House Borsail is not a business, it's a house where business is done.

Edit : Even if the majority of its staff is slave labor, there are going to be plenty of slaves who are at least nominally educated in the manners of the House, and there will be some sort of arrangement where their children will be brought up in much the same way.  It may not be formalized in a sort of child-care service or school, but it would probably be a fine place for a freeborn employee to stash their child.

Outside of noble houses, there are also likely to be informal arrangements among the populace, either through family or long-time associates.

[Patuk]

I don't know. Just a difference of vision I guess. My feeling is, in a world where resources are scarce, and labor is more plentiful than jobs most people aren't important enough that they'd take on the trouble or expense of providing daycare. I think you'd be lucky not to be fired the second you start to show.

Now if one were to promise said child like some kind of indenture that might do it. But they'd probably have your brat washing dishes as soon as it could stand next to the sand barrel,

I dunno. Plenty of children still get born during wartime, my own dad being a WW2 child (that same winter being one of the coldest ever). It's kinda the same thing imo: food was scarce, it was difficult to come by, shit was dangerous, etc. etc.

I would think, for survival of the race, especially in dire times people would produce more offspring to guarantee its future. Look to India, or South America for instance? The kids help provide an income and help around the house with mom and grandparents.

This, pretty much. Most if not all of my characters have backgrounds where they were forced to work since the age where they could stand, too. Hell, some jobs would even be better suited to children: I figure being a beggar or doing something requiring small fingers(laying fine knots) would be easier to employ children in.

[Barzalene]

Difference in vision. But I don't think I am the one stuck in in a modern mindset.

If my pc hires someone to make stew, I want them watching the stew not playing nanny. Your kid, your priblem. It's my house, not a commune.

[Dalmeth]

Difference in vision. But I don't think I am the one stuck in in a modern mindset.

If my pc hires someone to make stew, I want them watching the stew not playing nanny. Your kid, your priblem. It's my house, not a commune.

You realize it takes hours to make stock, right?  Cooking stew from a big old scrab can be an all-day thing.  So can smoking meat for preservation.

There will always be people who are doing something that doesn't keep them 100% busy, and other people will always try to take advantage of them for that.

[Barzalene]

Dude I was a cook in the coast guard and worked in restaurants from the time I was 18
I know exactly what is involved in making stock

Further, not the point. It doesn't explain why my employee's decision to spread their legs should be my problem.

[RogueGunslinger]

This is a dumb argument. It can go either way easily based on the people/house/employees involved.

[TheBadSeed]

Agreed. How accepted employees with children are is really an IC thing, not something that can be hashed out to concensus.

[Nyr]

the babby/employee/employer/zalanthas relationship-talk goes here.

[Dalmeth]

Further, not the point. It doesn't explain why my employee's decision to spread their legs should be my problem.

There is no good argument, because you're standing on a strict employer-employee relationship, where the employee works and the employer pays.

However, that notion is only 500 years old (at least in Europe), and doesn't really stand much in modern standards where employers are expected to provide health insurance and safe work environments.

So, let's rephrase the question from a modern perspective : why is it my problem that my employee got sick or used equipment improperly?

Essentially, it's just a solution to a problem.

[Iiyola]

I would think, in that mindset of harsh lands etc etc: the more kids, the more help the more income. The older kids can eventually take care of the younger ones too. Besides... it's not a given every child makes it: complications at birth, diseases, etc. etc.

[Iiyola]

Plenty of people wanting that job.

[Marauder Moe]

I also think you're in the 20th Century mode of family life and professional life being separate.  House Borsail is not a business, it's a house where business is done.

THIS.

They're not just companies or businesses.  A large portion of their "employees" are there for life, and that obligation goes both ways.  If you hire a young woman for life, you have to expect that she's going to have kids at some point.  Now, you can either pay her enough that she can rent a place and hire enough help to continue doing her job, or instead you can provide those services in bulk for all your employees at great savings.

And indeed, I've been told that noble houses do provide services to employees, including nanny/daycare services.

[Barzalene]

I would think, in that mindset of harsh lands etc etc: the more kids, the more help the more income. The older kids can eventually take care of the younger ones too. Besides... it's not a given every child makes it: complications at birth, diseases, etc. etc.

With regards to tribals I agree. But when we talk about nobles, the way I imagine the class divide is that the schism is vast enough that commoners are just barely human, and far too numerous.

[Marauder Moe]

Farmers take care of their animals' children.

[greasygemo]

Babies / kids can be fun IC and do not make everyone store. Just be prepared to emote the vnpc like nuts, allow them to puke, scream, break shit, etc.. Dont cop out and have Johnny Goodboy for a kid.

[Iiyola]

I would think, in that mindset of harsh lands etc etc: the more kids, the more help the more income. The older kids can eventually take care of the younger ones too. Besides... it's not a given every child makes it: complications at birth, diseases, etc. etc.

With regards to tribals I agree. But when we talk about nobles, the way I imagine the class divide is that the schism is vast enough that commoners are just barely human, and far too numerous.

Plenty of royals and bluebloods from the past with numerous children (some bastards). Nobles are people too and people like to kank. And mulmix isn't always 100% guarantee.

[Nyr]

Nobles aren't necessarily ruthless CEOs out to fire anyone that has a baby, especially if that someone having the baby is lifesworn.  It'd be more likely they'd want the little runt around to do the job someone would normally get paid for or that a slave would normally handle, freeing up those resources for something else.  If the runt enjoys the work, they might grow up into someone that also wants to become lifesworn, and by that point, they're already halfway indoctrinated into thinking that working at this House is awesome.

[Maso]

I think...somewhere in this whole baby argument...some people are making assumptions that all Zalanthian parents are and should be....responsible parents. There are shitty, sucky, irresponsible parents in the world who neglect their children, forget to feed them, hurt them, put them in dangerous situations, are generally just rubbish at looking after them, don't love them, love them too much, only have them to entrap men etc etc etc....The same applies in the Known. Even the more responsible of commoners will still have an instinct to reproduce (otherwise, how did they all get there?), and they will just do the best they can in a shitty situation. If that means carrying a baby on their back while they hunt to feed their family, or taking a baby to the bar while they go whoring - then that's what they will do.

[Eurynomos]

I moved a post to moderation. Please do not post IC information. What may seem like 'common knowledge' to you is something that even I as a Player did not find out for 8 RL years.

[roughneck]

If I was a noble or GMH family member, I would provide for an employee's offspring just to have more control over them. If people won't do anything for their boss, but most will do just about anything to keep their family safe and provided for.

Unrelated random baby thought: I once played a pc that murdered a pregnant woman, out in the wilderness, to collect the bounty on her head. The violent result of hunting and grebbing with a bun in the oven.

[Barzalene]

I also think you're in the 20th Century mode of family life and professional life being separate.  House Borsail is not a business, it's a house where business is done.

THIS.

They're not just companies or businesses.  A large portion of their "employees" are there for life, and that obligation goes both ways.  If you hire a young woman for life, you have to expect that she's going to have kids at some point.  Now, you can either pay her enough that she can rent a place and hire enough help to continue doing her job, or instead you can provide those services in bulk for all your employees at great savings.

And indeed, I've been told that noble houses do provide services to employees, including nanny/daycare services.

If my
Position seems modernist, then indeed to apologize. I failed to express myself clearly. My point was not make analogous the nobles and corporate America, but comment on the disparity.

However if current staff has said that houses provide child care, then there you are - disregard the above comments- they are flawed.

And too, I agree there are benefits available the life sworn not given to those who haven't made that leap. Is child care one of them? Possibly.

But whenever possible, I like to think that if there is a question or interpretation to make about Zalanthans life the truth is the one that is harder, and less given to entitlement forthe commoner.

[Maso]

Babies happen...it's like...life. Literally. The hardship comes in the fact that you might have to work up until the day it pops out of you, and then you might have to carry it around with you 24/7, because while you can have a baby, you're not entitled to stop working because of it.

I dunno, the one time I actually had a kid vNPC in game, it was constantly accounted for, constantly RP'd, constantly being a pain in the arse...but at the same time, I'm not going to judge another player because they might slip up with RP'ing it from time to time, nobody is perfect and it is a game after all. RP'ing a baby is actually a real challenge, and I commend anyone who attempts to try and do it, and if they succeed at doing it well - then that's all the more commendable.

[Synthesis]

This gives me a great idea:  a T'zai Byn Daycare Service.

We put all the babies in the yard, give them sparring weapons, and let them work that energy out all day.  Then, when you take your baby to the bar with you, it can double as your bodyguard.

[Harmless]

I am grateful to anybody who has the patience and time to RP having a baby in this game. It adds to the setting and I see it as a service to others.

Whatever IC reason they can think of to make RPing having that baby more fun or easy or simple is fine by me. I hope nobody here has ever been told that a plot they had in mind for babies didn't fit the setting. That kind of stifling "constraint" is what kills this as a game and makes it a chore.

Armageddon's "canon" is nothing more than a long-running competition of memes by now, with all the changes to the setting made by players and imms alike. If you want the world to work a certain way, make it convincing and fit it into the jigsaw puzzle for your story. The fact that there are so many PCs having babies nowadays (I remember it being rarer) encourages me that through these iterations we'll find out as a whole how babies work in the setting, even if it is a change from what somebody expected.

Even the Byn Daycare works for me, if somebody were willing to treat each individual vnpc baby as a unit and had to allocate vnpc or pc resources to deal with that. It would be a fun project, and in the end, the Byn will have an interesting footnote added to its history.

Or whatever else anybody has in mind. The possibilities are endless.

[Akaramu]

Nobles aren't necessarily ruthless CEOs out to fire anyone that has a baby, especially if that someone having the baby is lifesworn.  It'd be more likely they'd want the little runt around to do the job someone would normally get paid for or that a slave would normally handle, freeing up those resources for something else.  If the runt enjoys the work, they might grow up into someone that also wants to become lifesworn, and by that point, they're already halfway indoctrinated into thinking that working at this House is awesome.

This. This is exactly the impression I had over a number of PCs that worked for noble houses. One of my PCs had a child that was a three-quarter noble, even.

I'd think the houses LOVE having young Zalanthans around who are loyal, and were taught from birth that house XY is awesome and the best in the world. Even if they don't end up working in the same house as their parent did, they could be valuable associates elsewhere in the world, due to their strong ties.

p.s. I specifically recall my Fale bard being encouraged by nobility to produce as much offspring as he could. Perhaps the hope genetically inherited musical talent / the same amazing singing voice played a role.