Never met you, but, you are sexy.

[Desertman]

We all know how The Way works currently.

A foreign presence contacts your mind. (They contact you, you do not see their sdesc.)

You contact the the man with the unique facial scar with the Way. (You contact them, you see their sdesc.)

You say in Sirihish, "I have never met him before, but, he has a scar on his face shaped like a penis. Find him, and bring him to Lady Borsail NOW!"

Why is it that when someone hits your mind, you have no idea who they are, but they can randomly find your mind and instantly know what you look like?

I am not turning this thread into a debate about "People should roleplay either knowing or not knowing what you look like through the Way."

That has been discussed a million times and I have never seen the staff give a solid answer on if it is ok or not ok to do it.

So, I suggest a code change.

A foreign presence contacts your mind.

You contact a foreign presence's mind with the Way.

If you send them a telepathic message, they will get exactly what they get now.

"The blue-eyed woman sends you a telepathic message blah blah blah."

If you respond, they will get exactly what they get now.

"The green-eyed man sends you a telepathic message blah blah blah."

Simply using, "Contact Bob" should not be enough to instantly know what Bob looks like when you have never met him. If he replies to your Way? Sure, maybe we can assume that him sending you telepathic "energy" or whatever has passed along his "self-image" in his own thoughts or something.

This should help prevent "Way sdesc sniffing" and the age old arguement about people knowing exactly what you look like just by doing "contact name".

If nothing else, can we get an explanation as to why they can contact you and instantly know what you look like, but when they contact you, you have no idea what THEY look like?

Edited to Add for Clarification:

When you send them a message you would get...

"You send a telepathic message to a foreign presence via the Way:"

You would not get their sdesc just by sending them a message. They would have to respond to you in order for you to see their sdesc.

[Patuk]

I approve

[Maso]

+1

[Schrodingers Cat]

So would there be no way of knowing if the person contacted was the correct target?  With this way it seems the only way to ensure the target is correct would be to use all of their keywords (ex. contact bob.green.eyed.man).

[Barzalene]

I think that possibility adds rather than detracts.

[Synthesis]

Have to either code in a starting skill for mindbenders that would allow them to verify their contact target, or exempt them from the message-send requirement for target verification.

Also, are you suggesting that you don't see your target's sdesc at all unless they respond to you?  If so, this could have disastrous consequences, especially in situations where your psi target needs information, but is unable to reply.

Also, with abuse of the keyword command, you'd be able to intercept messages for high-value targets without the message-senders knowing it...which seems like a pretty lousy thing to have to force the staff to police.

[Orin]

I like this idea.

[Nyr]

We all know how The Way works currently.

A foreign presence contacts your mind. (They contact you, you do not see their sdesc.)

You contact the the man with the unique facial scar with the Way. (You contact them, you see their sdesc.)

You say in Sirihish, "I have never met him before, but, he has a scar on his face shaped like a penis. Find him, and bring him to Lady Borsail NOW!"

This looks like abuse from someone.

Why is it that when someone hits your mind, you have no idea who they are, but they can randomly find your mind and instantly know what you look like?

This looks like something we couldn't answer for you until we actually do change something, as it is a mix of code, lore, and mechanics.

I am not turning this thread into a debate about "People should roleplay either knowing or not knowing what you look like through the Way."

That has been discussed a million times and I have never seen the staff give a solid answer on if it is ok or not ok to do it.

We expect players to be responsible enough not to abuse things, and also to trust us to police things if they get out of control.

So, I suggest a code change.

A foreign presence contacts your mind.

You contact a foreign presence's mind with the Way.

If you send them a telepathic message, they will get exactly what they get now.

"The blue-eyed woman sends you a telepathic message blah blah blah."

If you respond, they will get exactly what they get now.

"The green-eyed man sends you a telepathic message blah blah blah."

Simply using, "Contact Bob" should not be enough to instantly know what Bob looks like when you have never met him. If he replies to your Way? Sure, maybe we can assume that him sending you telepathic "energy" or whatever has passed along his "self-image" in his own thoughts or something.

This should help prevent "Way sdesc sniffing" and the age old arguement about people knowing exactly what you look like just by doing "contact name".

Should Way sdesc sniffing be a large enough issue to address with code, we can definitely do so.  However, the one example you mentioned looks like a case of potential abuse rather than a legitimate usage of psionics, and that is better left to be dealt with by staff on a case by case basis.  Additionally, things have changed so that people that want to remain obscured can more easily do so (you can't contact people based on temporary sdesc information provided by cloaks, hoods, etc unless you are in the same room as that person).  It is not perfect by any means.

Another thing to consider is that your solution as proposed means more occasions where players contact NPCs accidentally (this already happens several times per day).  Instead of poor psionic targeting on the part of the player which could be corrected by simply reading the screen, the player would have no way of knowing whether they reached a PC, NPC, or the right person at all.  For playability's sake, that probably wouldn't be feasible.

[Desertman]

This looks like abuse from someone.

I've seen it first hand on MANY occassions with multiple PC's. I would go so far as to say it is the norm rather than the exception. I could be wrong. I can say that I have never ONCE seen a pc say, "Well, I have their mind, but, I've never met them, so I don't know what they look like." Where as I have seen the exact opposite happen more times than I can even remember.

So, I would have to say it is abuse from A LOT of someone's.

Do I need to send player complaints every time I see someone doing this? I would love to say that this would only include people I have seen do this specifically to my own PC, but, sadly it would include multiple third party instances where I have seen people do it to other PC's as well, even people on my own "side", as much as I hate to admit that. I always feel the urge to OOC'ly berrate them when they do it, but, I don't want to be the RP police either.

This looks like something we couldn't answer for you until we actually do change something, as it is a mix of code, lore, and mechanics.

No worries, it was more of a general "group" question to the playerbase. Almost rhetorical really.

We expect players to be responsible enough not to abuse things, and also to trust us to police things if they get out of control.

Yup, I absolutely trust you guys to handle business. One of my favorite things about Arm has always been our ability to self police our own roleplay.

I think we just needed confirmation from the staff that sdesc sniffing with the Way IS IN FACT ABUSE.

Now that we have that confirmed, maybe players will stop doing it?

Maybe this should be added to the Help Docs both in game and on the webpage for Contact/The Way? I know currently a very large number of players do not realize this is even considered abuse.

Should Way sdesc sniffing be a large enough issue to address with code, we can definitely do so.  However, the one example you mentioned looks like a case of potential abuse rather than a legitimate usage of psionics, and that is better left to be dealt with by staff on a case by case basis.  Additionally, things have changed so that people that want to remain obscured can more easily do so (you can't contact people based on temporary sdesc information provided by cloaks, hoods, etc unless you are in the same room as that person).  It is not perfect by any means.

I loved this change. Agreed it isn't perfect, it opened up a whole new can of worms with people instantly doing "Contact black-cloaked" to get your sdesc as soon as they start talking with you in a room and then leaving your mind, but, it was absolutely a step in the right direction.

Another thing to consider is that your solution as proposed means more occasions where players contact NPCs accidentally (this already happens several times per day).  Instead of poor psionic targeting on the part of the player which could be corrected by simply reading the screen, the player would have no way of knowing whether they reached a PC, NPC, or the right person at all.  For playability's sake, that probably wouldn't be feasible.

Hmmm, I can see the pain in the ass this would cause.

But, I personally think the gains of taking out sdesc sniffing through the Way, which gets abused in PC to PC interactions regularly, would out-weigh the potential negatives of accidently sending a Way to an NPC that isn't going to affect storylines for the most part, if at all.

Again, that is my personal preference, I'm sure many other people would disagree and I'm fine with that.

[Desertman]

Have to either code in a starting skill for mindbenders that would allow them to verify their contact target, or exempt them from the message-send requirement for target verification.

Also, are you suggesting that you don't see your target's sdesc at all unless they respond to you?  If so, this could have disastrous consequences, especially in situations where your psi target needs information, but is unable to reply.

Also, with abuse of the keyword command, you'd be able to intercept messages for high-value targets without the message-senders knowing it...which seems like a pretty lousy thing to have to force the staff to police.

I'm open to alternatives man.

Sdesc sniffing with the Way is a problem. I don't claim to have the best solution.

[Maso]

Another thing to consider is that your solution as proposed means more occasions where players contact NPCs accidentally (this already happens several times per day).  Instead of poor psionic targeting on the part of the player which could be corrected by simply reading the screen, the player would have no way of knowing whether they reached a PC, NPC, or the right person at all.  For playability's sake, that probably wouldn't be feasible.

That is a very very good point. I'd rather have it the way it is now than end up talking to NPC's all day. ^.^

[Marauder Moe]

I agree that a clearer policy would be a good thing.

A coded solution might be nice, but could also simply cause more problems/irritations than it solves.  Also sounds moderately complicated.  For instance, how does the code know when you've "met" someone?

[Maso]

What about...a little evolution on the part of Zalanthians? Like...a random chance that you will see the sdesc of the person contacting you. This chance is probably enough to put people off sdesc sniffing and abuse...a little. As there is a chance they wouldn't be anonymous in the process. I can't see a reason how a change like that would hurt...but I'm pretty tired today.

[Nyr]

This looks like abuse from someone.

I've seen it first hand on MANY occassions with multiple PC's.

Your specific example seems like a portrayal of abuse, so it depends on what happened in reality.  You'd have to be specific.  Since you can't be, yes:  please file a player complaint if you notice a problem.  We can review it then.

Yup, I absolutely trust you guys to handle business. One of my favorite things about Arm has always been our ability to self police our own roleplay.

I think we just needed confirmation from the staff that sdesc sniffing with the Way IS IN FACT ABUSE.

Now that we have that confirmed, maybe players will stop doing it?

Maybe this should be added to the Help Docs both in game and on the webpage for Contact/The Way? I know currently a very large number of players do not realize this is even considered abuse.

You might note that I didn't provide a solid answer, either.  It is a case-by-case thing and we will review it if there is an issue.  If you feel like it is being abused, then file a player complaint.

I loved this change. Agreed it isn't perfect, it opened up a whole new can of worms with people instantly doing "Contact black-cloaked" to get your sdesc as soon as they start talking with you in a room and then leaving your mind, but, it was absolutely a step in the right direction.

Again, if that happens, this is an example of something of which we need to be made aware via a player complaint.  This will help us determine the regularity of the problem and whether it is being blown out of proportion, and then it is easier for us to use data points in order to determine whether a change is needed.

[Nyr]

What about...a little evolution on the part of Zalanthians? Like...a random chance that you will see the sdesc of the person contacting you. This chance is probably enough to put people off sdesc sniffing and abuse...a little. As there is a chance they wouldn't be anonymous in the process. I can't see a reason how a change like that would hurt...but I'm pretty tired today.

This looks like something we couldn't answer for you until we actually do change something, as it is a mix of code, lore, and mechanics.

[Desertman]

Your specific example seems like a portrayal of abuse, so it depends on what happened in reality.  You'd have to be specific.  Since you can't be, yes:  please file a player complaint if you notice a problem.  We can review it then.

I understand. But I would like to note that my specific example, "Ok, I just found his mind. He has green eyes, dark hair, and is missing one arm, now we know who we are looking for guys." Is exactly what I have seen happen multiple times, pretty much word for word.

So long as we are clear on that being abuse, that is really my primary concern and I will go ahead and start submitting player complaints when I see it.

You might note that I didn't provide a solid answer, either.  It is a case-by-case thing and we will review it if there is an issue.  If you feel like it is being abused, then file a player complaint.

Can we get some sort of guideline as to what is acceptable? Anything? One example of abuse? Is what I posted above considered an example of abuse? I'm confused now because previously you said that appears to be abuse, and now you are saying you aren't giving a solid answer on it. Why are you playing with my brain Nyr? Why are you doing this to me? 

[Synthesis]

I think the best way to defeat sdesc sniffing is to allow generic maxed barrier to defeat generic maxed contact 100% of the time, and making it rather difficult for even maxed generic contact to defeat the noobiest successful barrier, then allowing mindbenders supra-maximal contact skill that can defeat generic maxed barrier.  (Of course, this would lead to some other problems with some other things that probably shouldn't be spoken about, but those things could also be modified to take into account the new contact vs. barrier situation.)

This way, if you have a barrier up and you're an experienced PC, your sdesc can't ever be sniffed by anyone other than a mindbender (which would be an appropriate ability for a mindbender anyway).

Unfortunately, this would royally piss off anyone who had an important message to send you while you were spooking about talking to people with your cloak up...but them's the breaks.

The success curve of generic contact vs. generic barrier would look something like...at matched novice contact vs. barrier, there would be maybe a 1% of breaking the barrier, and that % would decrease steadily as the matched levels progressed, until at completely mastered contact and barrier, the % chance of breaking the barrier would be virtually nil.  Maxed contact vs. noobie barrier would give maybe a 10% success rate, curving down to the virtually nil master vs. master point. Maybe increase the stun drain of barrier to compensate for its new functionality, or drastically decrease the amount of time it stays up, forcing you to constantly renew it.

Under this sort of system, if you're paranoid about your sdesc, you can take effective action to prevent it from getting out, at the cost of some inconvenience.  If not, you don't have to worry about it.

[Desertman]

I agree that a clearer policy would be a good thing.

Same here. Barring a code change to prevent abuse, a simple outline of what might be considered abuse would make me happy. Not that anyone cares if I am happy. But still.

[Nyr]

Data points:  To date, we've had a grand total of two player complaints that have used the words "sdesc sniffing."  Both were declined, one stating that sdesc sniffing doesn't work that way anymore due to the hood change, and the other stating that there's no rule against sdesc sniffing.  It's true; there is no rule against it.  Only one other complaint can be tied directly to this sort of thing without parsing out every single player complaint filed. 

We actually see more complaints about guild-sniffing and power-emoting.

I'm not personally convinced that sdesc sniffing as described is abuse.  My caveat is that if we do think that there is abuse going on, we'll handle it, whether that be with communication or with a change in code.  That's why I'd suggest sending in a player complaint when you see something that you think might be abuse so that we can actually document how things are occurring.  When you do that, we can look into specific scenarios and offer feedback that is pertinent to the situation.

[Cind]

I would like it if the sdesc stayed the way it was regarding your current sdesc, at all times for mundanes. Pull a cloak over your head, and Way. And your shady elf who's stolen from five different nobles can sit at the bar under his hood in some semblance of what peace and ease might be like for an elf's psychology. And I can't help but feel like there's something I'm missing regarding the idea.

I think it would be more appropriate for mundane people, waying someone whose name they know and whose face they've never seen clearly, to not automatically know what wayed people look like, to not be able to recognize them at first glance when they leave, lower their hoods, and come back into the room where you see their face for the first time.

[Maso]

Yeah, actually...the more I think about it...the more I feel like it's just an aspect of Zalanthian life...if you're connected to someones mind, you get an image of what they look...Just the way it is. There are things in Zalanthas that make life 'easier' and things that make it 'harder'. Welcome to Armageddon?

[Fathi]

The only solution I can think of would be to have psionic contact work like this:

> contact malik

> You contact a foreign presence with the Way.

> You send a telepathic message to a foreign presence:
      "can u hear me now, bro?"

> A foreign presence contacts your mind.

> The muscular, scarred dwarf sends you a telepathic message:
     "Can you please use proper sirihish when you're messaging me?"

So that way, you get 'a foreign presence' UNTIL they contact you back, in which case you get their sdesc.

However, this comes with a whole litany of problems unto itself that may be worse than the original thing it was intending to fix.

[Desertman]

Data points:  To date, we've had a grand total of two player complaints that have used the words "sdesc sniffing."  Both were declined, one stating that sdesc sniffing doesn't work that way anymore due to the hood change, and the other stating that there's no rule against sdesc sniffing.  It's true; there is no rule against it.  Only one other complaint can be tied directly to this sort of thing without parsing out every single player complaint filed. 

We actually see more complaints about guild-sniffing and power-emoting.

Data point noted. But to be fair, I have seen many instances of sdesc sniffing with the Way that I would have submitted player complaints about if I had known I should be submitting player complaints about it.

The reason you do not have more, one might conclude, is because the playerbase doesn't know that they should be submitting complaints about this.

I think it would be prudent to agree that this specific data point may not accurately reflect the issue due to the fact the group from which the data is being drawn has never been made aware that this is an issue they should be submitting data on.

If such a policy existed officially, I would be interested to see this data point re-examined perhaps six months from now?

That would be interesting.

I'm not personally convinced that sdesc sniffing as described is abuse.  My caveat is that if we do think that there is abuse going on, we'll handle it, whether that be with communication or with a change in code.  That's why I'd suggest sending in a player complaint when you see something that you think might be abuse so that we can actually document how things are occurring.  When you do that, we can look into specific scenarios and offer feedback that is pertinent to the situation.

Is that your personal opinion or a staff opinion? I just want to confirm. My end game here is of course to get an official staff policy in place.  


That aside....

Can we at least agree that the new "policy" regarding sdesc sniffing with the Way is that when you see it, you should submit a player complaint about it so that it can be assessed for abuse by the staff as a whole?

[Desertman]

The only solution I can think of would be to have psionic contact work like this:

> contact malik

> You contact a foreign presence with the Way.

> You send a telepathic message to a foreign presence:
     "can u hear me now, bro?"

> A foreign presence contacts your mind.

> The muscular, scarred dwarf sends you a telepathic message:
    "Can you please use proper sirihish when you're messaging me?"

So that way, you get 'a foreign presence' UNTIL they contact you back, in which case you get their sdesc.

However, this comes with a whole litany of problems unto itself that may be worse than the original thing it was intending to fix.

This is my exact idea, yes.

But, as someone pointed out, it might become a pain when you accidentally contact an NPC, who of course, will not respond, and you wouldn't even realize you have contacted an NPC.

I'm thinking about this currently and trying to figure out a solution...

[Fathi]

The only solution I can think of would be to have psionic contact work like this:

> contact malik

> You contact a foreign presence with the Way.

> You send a telepathic message to a foreign presence:
      "can u hear me now, bro?"

> A foreign presence contacts your mind.

> The muscular, scarred dwarf sends you a telepathic message:
     "Can you please use proper sirihish when you're messaging me?"

So that way, you get 'a foreign presence' UNTIL they contact you back, in which case you get their sdesc.

However, this comes with a whole litany of problems unto itself that may be worse than the original thing it was intending to fix.

This is my exact idea, yes.

But, as someone pointed it, it might become a pain when you accidentally contact an NPC, who of course, will not respond, and you won't even realize you have contacted an NPC.

I'm thinking about this currently and trying to figure out a solution...

Ahhh, now that I reread your OP I see that our suggestions are the same. I thought that you were saying they shouldn't necessarily have to be in mutual contact, just that if people are actually sending messages, you'd get the sdesc.

I grok you now.