Constraints and Creativity

[Harmless]

I've seen quirri used, but that isn't the point. Once I saw the word "coward" get about 5 simultaneous angry and butthurt glares, looks, and "fuck you's" which I think is awesome    they certainly didn't need to use the word "pussy" to get the hate.

You know what needs more attention are plants. Harder to visualize, yes, but the variety is astounding. Yes, plantlife knowledge is limited in a desert world, but some kinds of plants grow enough that everyone should know about SOME, and the word "pansy" IRL describes a rather cute, diminutive flower.

[Marauder Moe]

English has plenty.

Silky, fancy, scrawny, weak, puny, twig-boned, limp, cowering, skulking, gutless, spineless, coward, boot-licking, feeble, trembling, shivering, quivering, craven, cringing, lurking, sniveling, blubbering, whimpering, bothered, crawling, creeping, beggarly, pathetic, pitiful, fretting, withered, wilted, keening, tearful, mewling, moaning, baying, bawling, shrieking, blustering, wailing, fainting, fussing, decrepit, fragile, frail, spindly, drooping, flimsy, brittle, timid, aaaaaaaand, well, softy works too.

[Synthesis]

"You lifera-livered pfafna!"

"You maidenflower-sucking, bakri-balled, chedya-dicked sikilip!"

"Your mother chewed sandspider and your father smelt of jimpka!"

[MeTekillot]

Gutless and snivelling are personal favorites of mine.

[TheBadSeed]

Gender equality stops at capability. There is no need to assume that someone can't or won't be called a gender related insult. There is also no reason to believe that someone won't believe that there is a better place for one gender or another as far as tasks.

The reason to believe that someone won't believe that there is a better place for one gender or another as far as tasks are concerned would be the setting of the game, outlined by the documentation.  I'll bold the relevant points from the quickstart guide.

Avoid imposing your own interpretations and norms on the game world. For example, there is no sexism on Zalanthas; women and men are treated equally. This means that the following would not happen in Armageddon: a man expressing shame at being beaten sparring by a woman; someone referring to women as needing protection or coddling; a woman being shamed for sexual promiscuity while a man is praised for it. Attitudes towards sexuality are broad. Homosexuality is common, and not seen as aberrant. Multiple sex partners are common among Zalanthans, particularly in the upper classes. If you intend to roleplay out adult scenes, please make sure you are aware of our consent rules.

I get that you're mostly saying that men can't have babies.  What I intend to address is your last comment that seems to go beyond that.

If you wish to discriminate against someone based on gender, you can do that in real life.  (Or better yet, don't; it's not very nice.)  In this game, however, that will be viewed as myopic roleplay, disregard for the documentation, and contrariness all for the sake of being contrary.  Playing the male PC that looks down on women as weaker doesn't make you edgy or cool.  It doesn't necessarily mean that you are a newbie with no idea about how the game itself is meant to be played, either, but that's what everyone is going to think.  Worse, they may think that this is as complex as your roleplay gets:  retreading the same ground that history itself has trod as though it made you some sort of groundbreaking roleplay god (when in reality, it'd peg you at somewhere slightly above a scripted NPC).

Now don't get me wrong, you're free to have the opinion that it's stupid.  Acting on that opinion with roleplayed opinions to the contrary would also be stupid (potentially more stupid since we have found that it to be important enough to remind players not to impose their own interpretations and norms on the gameworld).

Sexism in Zalanthas woulnd't be a matter of believing that one gender is weaker or stronger. That's not what I'm saying, and certainly not what I believe in real life, but thank you for your assumptions and inferences. They are not necessary nor requested. In fact, your comments are rather insulting in their assumptions.

I'm simply pointing out that one certain gender is able to propegate the species more than another gender, and therefore would be considered more important to the survival of the species. To think that people wouldn't know or care about such things and would treat all exactly the same is asking for more of a stretch than my mammalian mind is willing to make.

[Marauder Moe]

Regardless, that topic is a bit off the rails here.  Maybe make a new thread?  Or better yet, search up some old ones.  Pretty sure both your points and Nyr's have all come up before.

[Nyr]

Sexism in Zalanthas woulnd't be a matter of believing that one gender is weaker or stronger. That's not what I'm saying, and certainly not what I believe in real life, but thank you for your assumptions and inferences. They are not necessary nor requested. In fact, your comments are rather insulting in their assumptions.

I'm simply pointing out that one certain gender is able to propegate the species more than another gender, and therefore would be considered more important to the survival of the species. To think that people wouldn't know or care about such things and would treat all exactly the same is asking for more of a stretch than my mammalian mind is willing to make.

I understood that the majority of your point was that men can't have babies, so I said that.  I must have misunderstood this line which seemed to go beyond (and a bit contrary to) what you said prior.

Gender equality stops at capability. There is no need to assume that someone can't or won't be called a gender related insult. There is also no reason to believe that someone won't believe that there is a better place for one gender or another as far as tasks.

It must've gone over my head because I misunderstood it entirely.  At any rate, Marauder Moe is right, this has been covered previously many times.  In fact, this thread got derailed into discussing many of these things you've brought up, and this post actually links to a plethora of gender equality threads.

[Harmless]

No matter how often sexism in Zalanthas gets "covered," it never seems to stick when I actually play. Turns out it's hard for people to shut down their basic assumptions and prejudices. Who'd have thought.

And have fun being the one chump willing to file a player complaint about it when it does happen. Because they'll just file one right back at you. Welcome to Armageddon, where 10-year-olds run GMH's and twinks STILL have the last word.

[Nyr]

And have fun being the one chump willing to file a player complaint about it when it does happen. Because they'll just file one right back at you. Welcome to Armageddon, where 10-year-olds run GMH's and twinks STILL have the last word.

Just to clarify a few points that may not be clear:

If you do file a player complaint at all, it's filed to staff.  Staff read it.  It is not forwarded to the other player.
If we need to take action because of a player complaint, we will do so.
If a player "retaliates" against action taken over a player complaint by filing a "retaliatory" player complaint (because they have an idea of who may have complained about them), we'll just tell them to get over it and play by the rules.  There would be no reason to actually tell the original complainer about this.

So no, twinks do not have the last word.

[Harmless]

Nyr: true, but only in the situation where the original complaint comes from a player who has never done anything deserving of a player complaint themselves.

edit: blah. forget it.

[Nyr]

Nyr: true, but only in the situation where the original complaint comes from a player who has never done anything deserving of a player complaint themselves.

Well...don't do bad things that are worthy of being dealt with by staff and you won't have players put in a player complaint against your playing that then gets dealt with by staff.  I guess. 

Now, the real point isn't whether or not the gender equality policy can be enforced. I agree, there are ways for it to be enforced. But that hasn't stopped it from constantly being violated in the years I've played and by now I'm just used to it.

We're happy to look into incidents.  However, if they are not reported, we can't let the offending players know how to improve, and unfortunately, that forces the cycle to continue.

[TheBadSeed]

I understood that the majority of your point was that men can't have babies, so I said that.  I must have misunderstood this line which seemed to go beyond (and a bit contrary to) what you said prior.

Gender equality stops at capability. There is no need to assume that someone can't or won't be called a gender related insult. There is also no reason to believe that someone won't believe that there is a better place for one gender or another as far as tasks.

It must've gone over my head because I misunderstood it entirely. 

Alright, fair enough. If you view the sentence completely independently of the rest of the post, I can see how that would happen.

My point about "equality" isn't a mathematical one. I didn't mean for lack of equality to mean one greater or less. By lack of equality, I meant lack of being completely the same in capabilities.
"Gender equality stops at capability."

• Males are incapable of bearing children, that makes them different them different
• Females are incapable of impregnating someone, that makes them different
• Most females cannot grow beards, that makes them different

"There is no need to assume that someone won't be called a gender related insult"

• People all have different backgrounds regarding their personal discrimination toward everyone. If someone grew up with a domineering parent figure of one kind or the other or has had poor experiences with on gender or another, there is no reason to assume they might have some predisposed attitude, and predisposed ideas of said gender.
• This doesn't mean simple canned sexism like "Men are strong, women are weak", "Girls are smart, men are stupid", this would be bad.
• This might mean "All men are uncaring whore mongers, or all women are bitches" This would be a perfectly IC.
  

"There is no reason to believe that someone won't believe that there is a better place for one gender or another as far as tasks."

• In several of the tribes, there are definite gender roles. I've know at least one tribe where I've heard IC (I have not read the official clan docs as I've never been part of that tribe) that the women are held on high because only from their wombs do new tribe members spring. The males of that tribe might mate elsewhere, but their offspring will never be considered part of the tribe.
• Jobs like nannying would be much easier for females, especially if the job required them to wetnurse as well. Poorer folks that could not hire would likely leave most of the early child rearing to the one who could provide.
• You need someone to spy on Lady Fancy-Silks, who is jealous of all other women, and wants to bed every man she sees. A male would probably be required to get close.

Anyway, I'm done derailing.

[MeTekillot]

• This might mean "All men are uncaring whore mongers, or all women are bitches" This would be a perfectly IC.
  
  

I don't really think so.

EDIT: Well, perhaps it could be. As long as they then assume that people with brown hair are all thieves because a guy with brown hair would steal from them regularly, and things like that.[/list]

[Marauder Moe]

Damned kids, get off my lawn!  http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,44772.0.html

[Harmless]

Well Moe, you saved your thread from derail, now it's your job to reclaim this one and remind us what the hell we should be talking about. Constraints? All I can think of now are men in corsets. Help me. What should we discuss, oh wise one? 

[Marauder Moe]

Well, I thought that insults against weaklings, ones don't resort to sexist slurs, was on-topic.

Though really my objection to the derail goes back to the heart of the matter.  Even if we can justify some pieces of anachronistic language or behavior, I think often we're better if we don't.  We should take restrictions like that voluntarily and exercise our creativity to work through them.

Also, it's not just about finding Zalanthan-specific alternatives.  We can reach back into some of English's more archaic realms for things, perhaps.  You'll note everything in my softy insult list can be found in a dictionary.

Though we can also give new Zalanthas-specific meanings to existing words, which we have already done quite a bit: skinny, long-neck, sharp, 'breed, 'rinther (well, that's a novel word that has English roots), stumpy, etc.

[Jenred]

More creative language, of course, adds more flavor to the game setting, rather than us just speaking plain old English that might be appropriate in any other domain.

More creative language does not, inherently, make the game setting more flavorful.
I've found that things said in plain English, if appropriate, timely, witty, forceful, direct, flavorful, or whatever other adverbial/adjectival description you want to apply can be just as flavorful as someone who resorts to a creative but ultimately uninteresting/bland/repetitive linguistic construction.

Simply put, the content to me is more important than the delivery method.

[Marauder Moe]

Fine, whatever.

This isn't a blanket suggestion, else I'd be advocating for the construction of actual languages for Armageddon.

[Synthesis]

Fine, whatever.

This isn't a blanket suggestion, else I'd be advocating for the construction of actual languages for Armageddon.

It's about to get all Tolkien up in this muthafucka.

[Harmless]

You know what?

I think I finally passed some kind of test related to these "constraints."

About three months ago, I went through about a monthlong period of indecision about a PC I was playing, considering storage, basically. The reason, was, as usual, that RP got kind of dry for a while, most of my contacts had died, and along with it, the possibility of a role and plots that I had originally rolled up the PC to get. In the past in this situation, I probably would have stored or suicided quite readily.

Similar to prior "do I store" junctures, there were also good reasons NOT to store, but it was impossible to say whether they outweighed my reasons to do it. In the end, I was stuck in indecision. In the past the frustration of being stuck on this issue often pushed me to do the storing, because that brought an end to the indecision and lack of enjoyment this hobby normally provides.

However, this time, I toughed it out. I told myself, "My character doesn't have the option to just disappear, and there are still things that may happen for them." More importantly, I realized that the mere memory of PCs who were now dead would be stored along with my PC, never to have even a chance of being heard. That decision, I felt, was not mine to make. It would have to be left to chance when and how those stories died off.

Maybe on a more basic level, I was just holding to a promise I made to myself some time ago that I would, eventually, need to learn to control my urges to store characters and start fresh, because I have done it just too many times so far in my "career," of arma RP. I wanted to see, "What happens if I DON'T store this time?" Seeing that would require simply forcing myself to not submit that request.

So, I decided to do something in game that, though not at all spectacular, was enough to spark my interest again in them to a degree enough that today, I look forward to 2013 and playing this character out, (as well as the next one of course). This is, after all, just a hobby, and I am pleased to feel that even though I've gone through some pretty low times lately (both with this game and in real life) that at least, during the shit that 2013 brings, I will have arma when I want it to unwind and look forward to on weekends.

In realizing all of these things, I discovered that the root issue here was not that my RP should be under the 'constraint' of no storage allowed, since I do feel storage is the right thing to do at times, but that my overall problem was always one of pessimism ruling my decision making. Pessimism that, right now, I don't feel any longer. It was maybe a month and a half ago that I started to feel optimistic again and it's only grown since. I may have lost my character to a transient state of dissatisfaction. If I had lost my character today, it would sting, and I would feel quite shitty and unaccomplished. Knowing that, the prospect of me ever considering storage seems silly, but yet I did.

What I'm trying to say here is that I really dig the idea of constraints, and how many beautiful constraints this lovely game and its creators have made for us. Just as in real life, constraints imposed on us by authority can force us to "build character." Arma is a precious opportunity to experience constraints without them actually being real constraints.

So, what I'm saying is, I'm in an awesome BDSM relationship right now where Mantishead is my dominatrix and I'm the sub, and I'm really happy that I'm being tied up and whipped so nicely while at the same time being able to 'quit OOC' when I need to. 

p.s. thanks again so much for putting 'quit OOC' in, you guys are the best. p.p.s. I say that, and yet I have never even needed to use quit OOC once yet; it's great to have it though ^^.

[musashi]

So, what I'm saying is, I'm in an awesome BDSM relationship right now where Mantishead is my dominatrix and I'm the sub, and I'm really happy that I'm being tied up and whipped so nicely while at the same time being able to 'quit OOC' when I need to.  

Morgenes gave you a safety word.

[Morrolan]

Morgenes gave you a safety word.

>quit ooc vanilla

[Norcal]

Also, it's not just about finding Zalanthan-specific alternatives.  We can reach back into some of English's more archaic realms for things, perhaps.  You'll note everything in my softy insult list can be found in a dictionary.

Though we can also give new Zalanthas-specific meanings to existing words, which we have already done quite a bit: skinny, long-neck, sharp, 'breed, 'rinther (well, that's a novel word that has English roots), stumpy, etc.

I agree with this.
Art for art sake is great.  However, the goal of language is communication. Using Zalanthan specific terms for anything (not just insults etc.) is great, but might not always communicate exactly what you want. "Zalanthising" English words by slightly changing their meaning, pronunciation or the context in which they are used gives you the ability to still communicate, but to contextualize your communication and make it beautiful IC.

Yet surely there are more constraints to Zalanthas than just language! There are other cultural constraints as well as physical ones that would be cool to look at in this thread.

Now I am not trying to derail, so if this is off topic, just tell me to Tok off.

[greasygemo]

Now I am not trying to derail, so if this is off topic, just tell me to Tok kank off.