Constraints and Creativity

[Marauder Moe]

When it comes to discussing Armageddon roleplaying on the GDB, I probably have a reputation for being conservative.  When people ask "would Zalanthans know X" or "would commoners say Y" I'm more likely to suggest that the answer is "no" or "probably not".

It occurs to me, though, that I've never really explained why this is.  It's not because I'm a grumpy old hard-ass veteran (though I'm not denying that I may be those things  ).  It's because, in roleplay and just about any other aspect of life, limitations spur creativity.  When you limit your language, by say eliminating anachronistic concepts and vocabulary, you're forced to be more creative in its use.  More creative language, of course, adds more flavor to the game setting, rather than us just speaking plain old English that might be appropriate in any other domain.

Citations:
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/11/need-to-create-get-a-constraint/
http://www.creativitypost.com/psychology/does_creativity_require_constraints

[Maker]

Agree.  For example,  I've never enjoyed contemporary expletives being used in the game.  It is lazy (as is the use of an expletive in any scenario in life), but, more importantly, it breaks immersion.  I agree that limitations do result in creative solutions and wish more people would consider how they say something a little more before saying something.  Same goes for employing any other contemporary concept in game.  That, said, however, there are some players who can really maintain a fast paced rhythm when RPing (emoting, speaking, actions) while others take 2 minutes to just type a one-line response.  It might be that disparity that forces the slower ones to just blurt something quickly to keep pace in the scene.  With practice, though, I think everyone has the capablity to construct a new, more appropriate frame of reference while playing which would eventually lead to naturally thinking, actnig, and speaking as somone in Zalanthas might.

[evilcabbage]

Instead of fuck, we say kank.
Instead of bullshit, we say kankshit (we actually say bullshittoo)
Instead of "That bitch is HOT!" "That woman has the Sun King/Highlord's blessings!"
Instead of "Damn, she's got nice tits", "Look at them ginka's on her chest!"

Instead of "He's a muscle-bound freak!" "Krath, he's got stones in his arms!"
Instead of "Crap, shit, fuck, damn" we say "Krath!"

That kind of creativity?

[Dakota]

i read the title of this thread and thought it was gonna be about iso clans and making it interesting when you're stuck in a back-ass area w. hoards of restrictions.

[Gilgamesh]

I'm a fairly creative person. I've created two 100% original (at least I never seen them used or mentioned once) for two things - tribals and obsidian coins. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if I can share as they would probably give who my character.

[hyzhenhok]

I do it a lot too. The trick is to create a slang term for something, but still leave it obvious what you're talking about. No one has to ask, and suddenly it's as though you're using real Zalanthan slang even though you're the only player doing it.

And if you're lucky, maybe other players will start using it too.

[The Lonely Hunter]

I am much the same way as the OP and I am glad to see it isn't just me that is a grumpy old man.

I would also like to point out that ginka fruit is about the size of a human fist and is covered with spikes. Just saying.

[Harmless]

Thanks for posting Moe. You can always count on that guy to post something helpful around here.

I can't compete, and this is totally off topic, but here's a link I used once when digging for ways to describe a character's nose, which is lush with helpful adjectives for describing all sorts of things.

Adjectives to describe a nose

warning, a lot of these words are totally anachronistic. I wouldn't exactly expect to see the word Quadrangular, for instance, but it's a fun list as long as we're playing show and tell

[Maso]

Great link! Not sure all of them are really that suitable for noses...but useful nonetheless, and quite amusing.

the incomprehensibly-nosed woman is here

[Akaramu]

As a non-native english player, I have to put things in whatever way to come to mind, if I don't want to bore all of you by mulling something over for five minutes, and consulting alternative terms provided by online translator programs. No one seems to notice, but I -really- struggle with expressing something just the way I want to express it, sometimes. I have a feeling other non-native speakers, especially ones without decades of writing practice feel the same way.

I have a really, really hard time coming up with creative swear words for the same reasons. Fathi will forever annihilate me in swearing contests.  

Hey, I'm a grumpy old veteran when it comes to some topics, as well. But language is quite strongly an OOC construct that puts some of our players at a disadvantage.

[Lizzie]

I tend not to come up with obvious alternatives for perfectly useful words (like "shet" or "shite" for "shit"). I don't like them, they don't sit well with me. They look like obvious alternatives. In my head, I can't help but feel that someone thinks "oh this word, "shit," is a bad word, and there are kids playing this game so I shall endeavor to not offend them" while their chest spews blood all over their enemy's boots.

It's just too contrived-looking for my taste. Some of my characters curse like a trucker. Some don't curse at all. Most toss one or two in, every now and then. But they're usually the American-English version of an actual vulgarity, spelled properly. Fuck, shit, damn, tits, balls, etc. Some words make me uncomfortable to type out for some reason, but those are words I don't use in real life either so coming up with alternatives isn't a stretch. Like, the C word - snatch, hole, twat - all reasonable alternatives. And all still American-English-familiar words, spelled properly.
If I had to create an interesting substitute word just to mask vulgarity, I'd spend too much time doing that, and not enough time actually RPing whatever scene I'm in that's requiring such a word in the first place. So I don't do that.

[Patuk]

Funny, I love not being a native English speaker when my characters start swearing.. I can channel all the languages and let the ragefest of anger-filled goodness begin.

[Synthesis]

Spur and spurn are different words.

"Limitations spur creativity" and "limitations spurn creativity" mean quite different things...although I'm not sure the second isn't nonsensical.

[MeTekillot]

If creativity is a sentient cosmic being, maybe.

[Marauder Moe]

Bah.

[catchall]

I tend not to come up with obvious alternatives for perfectly useful words (like "shet" or "shite" for "shit"). I don't like them, they don't sit well with me. They look like obvious alternatives.

I agree with this, and I don't think much is gained for the game by switching vowels around, although I have had characters that have used "fuck" as a verb and "feck" as a noun.

However, I will never, ever, ever use gendered insults in game: bitch, etc.  There just isn't the cultural context of gender inequality to make those kind of insults meaningful. And I don't buy that business of "oh, it means a gortok bitch." Oh really, it means "gortok"? Your PC calls other PCs they don't like "gortoks"? That's interesting, because I've heard lots of female PCs referred to as "bitch" but never once heard a male PC referred to by any gortok-related term.

I think this is a great example of Moe's case for limitations and creativity, where we should limit our impulses to use certain insults out of laziness and OOC ease, because it actually does give us an opportunity to look for something that is congruent with the culture of the game world. There is almost always some IC-appropriate characteristic that can provide an appropriate slur--race, social class, place of origin, etc.

[Dalmeth]

Bah.

Well, they went and got creative.

[catchall]

For example,  I've never enjoyed contemporary expletives being used in the game.  It is lazy (as is the use of an expletive in any scenario in life), but, more importantly, it breaks immersion.

I saw this post a while ago but didn't bother to jump into the conversation, but now that I'm in the thread, might as well comment.

It's worth noting as well that "shit" for excrement has been attested since early Old English at least (meaning it surely dates back even further to West Germanic), and "fuck" is actually first attested a half-century earlier than "lazy."  True, their use as one-off interjections is rather more recent--mid-19th century or so in the case of "shit"--primarily because religious taboo words predominated as interjections before then. You'll have a hard time getting rid of all the word usages that have been developed in the last century and a half though, to put it mildly. These terms are certainly nothing new, so my take is that their value as pejoratives depends on Zalanthan cultural context.

There's a case to be made that since dung (animal dung at least) is a resource on Zalanthas in a way that is salient to most people, not merely a pure waste product, its use as a vulgar interjection makes less sense. However, excrement is also associated with the lower class, Bynners and such, so there's a strong counterpoint that it would take on pejorative meaning. Likewise, Zalanthans seem to have fewer sexual hangups, which might make "fuck" carry less weight, but there are strong sexual taboos in domains specific to Zalanthas, like sex between different humanoid races and across social classes. You'd have a hard time making a case that "breedfucker" isn't a perfectly well-formed Zalanthan insult.

Also, re: expletives being "lazy," this is a nice example of a language ideology--an attitude speakers have about use of the language and other speakers of that language--but it certainly doesn't correspond to any objective reality or fact about language.

[Synthesis]

I tend not to come up with obvious alternatives for perfectly useful words (like "shet" or "shite" for "shit"). I don't like them, they don't sit well with me. They look like obvious alternatives.

I agree with this, and I don't think much is gained for the game by switching vowels around, although I have had characters that have used "fuck" as a verb and "feck" as a noun.

However, I will never, ever, ever use gendered insults in game: bitch, etc.  There just isn't the cultural context of gender inequality to make those kind of insults meaningful. And I don't buy that business of "oh, it means a gortok bitch." Oh really, it means "gortok"? Your PC calls other PCs they don't like "gortoks"? That's interesting, because I've heard lots of female PCs referred to as "bitch" but never once heard a male PC referred to by any gortok-related term.

I think this is a great example of Moe's case for limitations and creativity, where we should limit our impulses to use certain insults out of laziness and OOC ease, because it actually does give us an opportunity to look for something that is congruent with the culture of the game world. There is almost always some IC-appropriate characteristic that can provide an appropriate slur--race, social class, place of origin, etc.

It wouldn't make sense to call a male Zalanthan a "bitch," because bitches are female.  I agree that Zalanthans wouldn't use the word "bitch" in its RL context meaning weakness or cowardice (e.g. "He totally bitched out of that fight"), but it would be fine to use it to use it in its context of ornery, cantankerous, disagreeable, etc.  So yes, you can call a female Zalanthan a bitch, and it isn't a violation of gender equality--as long as you're using it appropriately.

[Kalai]

Swear (heh) I've seen 'tok used as a gender neutral equivalent vs male PCs. 

[greasygemo]

Ibe used 'tok brained, 'tok faced, son of a 'tok, and bitch (in reference to someone being nasty/testy).. Gortoks are a versatile insult animal!

It's all context. One PC might say, "You 'tok toothed, tregil bellied breed lover." and another might say, "You have the countenance of a snaggled gortok, the bravery of a cornered tregil and I would not be amazed to learn you engage in sexual acts with half elven miscreants."

[IntuitiveApathy]

I tend not to come up with obvious alternatives for perfectly useful words (like "shet" or "shite" for "shit"). I don't like them, they don't sit well with me. They look like obvious alternatives. In my head, I can't help but feel that someone thinks "oh this word, "shit," is a bad word, and there are kids playing this game so I shall endeavor to not offend them" while their chest spews blood all over their enemy's boots.

It's just too contrived-looking for my taste. Some of my characters curse like a trucker. Some don't curse at all. Most toss one or two in, every now and then. But they're usually the American-English version of an actual vulgarity, spelled properly. Fuck, shit, damn, tits, balls, etc. Some words make me uncomfortable to type out for some reason, but those are words I don't use in real life either so coming up with alternatives isn't a stretch. Like, the C word - snatch, hole, twat - all reasonable alternatives. And all still American-English-familiar words, spelled properly.
If I had to create an interesting substitute word just to mask vulgarity, I'd spend too much time doing that, and not enough time actually RPing whatever scene I'm in that's requiring such a word in the first place. So I don't do that.

I don't think vulgarity censorship is the reason why people use these "obvious alternatives" - at least it's not why I use them when I do.  I do so to convey a character's manner of speaking, in the same way truncation, etc is used.  I know in the past you've railed on the latter and are firmly in the coded accent camp, but just thought I'd say.  I expect you to also think that in addition to censorship that this is a bad reason, which I will say will not in any way prevent me from continuing to play in this manner.

[catchall]

Swear (heh) I've seen 'tok used as a gender neutral equivalent vs male PCs. 

Could well be that it circulates in PC subcultures I'm not familiar with.  Though I'd submit in counterpoint that since "gortok" is gender-neutral, it's fantastic and preferable to use it against female PCs as well. If the contrast is between a female-specific term and a gender-neutral term, that's a clue that they're not really equivalent. It just seems like all too flimsy of justification to import a heavily loaded and unambiguously sexist term.

It wouldn't make sense to call a male Zalanthan a "bitch," because bitches are female.

Zalanthans also aren't gortoks. That just isn't how metaphor works. There's a reason people choose the word "bitch," and it's not because of special characteristics of female gortoks. (Which there may well be, but if that was the point, saying "female gortok" would carry the same weight, and it doesn't.) And it's definitely not because of special characteristics that correspond, specially and specifically, to characteristics of female humanoids.

[Synthesis]

It wouldn't make sense to call a male Zalanthan a "bitch," because bitches are female.

Zalanthans also aren't gortoks.

Neither are they assholes, dicks, shit-stains, turds, or tregils.  What's your point? 

There's a reason people choose the word "bitch," and it's not because of special characteristics of female gortoks.

Okay, so what's this mysterious reason?  At any rate, an insult doesn't have to pertain to the special characteristics of anything.  There isn't anything particularly noteworthy in terms of negative characteristics about people who prefer sex with older women, but motherfucker is still an insult.  Insults don't have to make any sense at all.  We don't call males "dicks" because there's some special negative characteristic of penises that is applicable to men, but none of us are complaining about it.

(Which there may well be, but if that was the point, saying "female gortok" would carry the same weight, and it doesn't.)

Are you new to the insult game? Polysyllabic technical derogatory terms went out of style around...I don't know...the 18th century, I'm guessing.  At any rate, calling someone a "male gortok" wouldn't carry the same weight, either.  You wouldn't call someone a breed-lover by saying, "and your sexual preferences tend toward those of elven descent!".  Unless you're a noble or something, I suppose.

And it's definitely not because of special characteristics that correspond, specially and specifically, to characteristics of female humanoids.

Is being female not a characteristic of female humanoids?  Anyway, as I've said:  dick is the equivalent term for males (unless you've got some argument proposing that dick isn't gender-specific).  Asshole is the gender-neutral term.  None of them make sense, so your entire argument at this point hinges on this unstated reason for using the word "bitch" that apparently I'm not familiar with.

[AreteX]

I for one find myself lacking with Zalanthian terminology when I am playing the game, but then again I am not a very oldschool player.  I've tried accents, different ways of spelling things and all of that but I find it more difficult to just get the message out so I revert back to regular old english terms :0

I hope the rest of you don't look down on my roleplay or other people's roleplay because we use terms that are used in the real world.  I'm not talking about robots and such, but just speaking in a regular way when we play our characters.  The lack of ten synonyms for eating or fucking something doesn't mean that we don't create and control compelling characters.

[Kalai]

Clarify my experience: I've called and heard called both male and female characters " 'toks " and it works rightly.
Monosyllabic, gender-neutral, and captures the essence of a cantankerous canine who will crush your throat in its jaws.

I mean, I wouldn't call a man a 'stud' or a 'sire' as an insult so 'bitch' seems limited.   I might call either 'dogs', but we don't got a ton of those in Zalanthas so 'tok will do better.

[Synthesis]

Once again, insults don't have to make literal sense.  They just have to be commonly understood to mean something derogatory.  "Bitch" is commonly understood to mean either a) a female who is an asshole or b) a man who is wimpy.  Connotation (b) isn't allowable on Zalanthas, because accusing a man of being woman-like breaks the gender-equality rule.  Option (a) is reasonable.  The fact that it's only applied to females isn't discriminatory any more than calling a woman a woman and a man a man is discriminatory.  In the modern era, it's purely definitional, and there's a male-only equivalent, so I don't see what the problem is.

Now, there is another antiquated sense of the word, meaning a woman who is sexually promiscuous, but I don't recall ever having heard it used in that manner in conversation.  Obviously if you were using it in that sense, it wouldn't be kosher on Zalanthas in general, because there's no broad culture of monogamy, sexual promiscuity isn't generally looked down upon, and whoring is a generally acceptable profession.  Now, I suppose a culture that valued monogamy would be able to use slut or variations thereof, but that connotation of bitch is so antiquated that I don't think anyone (players, that is) would really get it.

And  yeah, we call both men and women "dogs," but each has a different connotation.  In American culture, at least, "dog" applied to men means "scoundrel," whereas applied to a woman it means "ugly."  If you start mixing and matching, you're only going to confuse people.

[Kalai]

Hmm ... okay then. I'm going to use Zalanthan-specific insults when I can because I don't actually understand what swear/insults mean. 

[Marauder Moe]

For the record, personally I'm OK with most RL swear words for use in Zalanthas.  If a word is well-established in English and it's concept is solidly appropriate for Zalanthas, go for it.  If it's a stretch, though, one ought to put at least a little effort into figuring out an alternative.

"Bitch" is probably a bit too much of a stretch in my opinion, given that so many of it's meanings/usages are not Zalanthas-appropriate.  Gortok/'tok is a fine alternative, as long as people realize that it's not an exact synonym.

[Synthesis]

...it only has 2 modern usages, as far as I know.  One is obviously verboten.  I fail to see how this is confusing to anyone who went to public school, at least in the United States.

I'm fairly sure catchall is referencing the feminist critique of the word, where the idea is that it's used to suppress outspoken women or something.  I don't really buy that line of thought, because (at least, in my experience) it's never been used to denote being outspoken or opinionated.  I suppose that in the early to mid-20th century, when a woman being outspoken was less socially acceptable, it could be construed as rude, and therefore bitchy, and the critique would apply.  Today, however, is not the early to mid-20th century.

[Marauder Moe]

While I disagree that those connotations are no longer applicable/offensive, that's not really the heart of the matters.  It's about a fence around the guidelines, and the impression you may make on newer, younger, and/or less enlightened players.

Even if you're able, in the heat of an IC altercation, to say "bitch" in a way that's completely devoid of sexist connotations, there are other players who may not be so discerning.  That could easily take away nothing but that it's OK to use the word "bitch" in Armageddon, and may start going around calling a dude a "whiny little bitch" or something.

EDIT: And, of course, we are more creative when we constrain ourselves rather than stretch our language anachronistically/inappropriately out of convenience.

[catchall]

It wouldn't make sense to call a male Zalanthan a "bitch," because bitches are female.

Zalanthans also aren't gortoks.

Neither are they assholes, dicks, shit-stains, turds, or tregils.  What's your point? 

Oh my goodness, you're a silly person. Do I have to requote what you said just a few lines after quoting it the first time and spell everything out for you?

It wouldn't make sense to call a male Zalanthan a "bitch," because bitches are female.

This is not how metaphor works. You are already comparing things that are not literally the same, as you so sagely pointed out with "shit-stain." There is no requirement that you only establish metaphors between animals with the same reproductive function.

There's a reason people choose the word "bitch," and it's not because of special characteristics of female gortoks.

Okay, so what's this mysterious reason?

Because the target is female, and the player choosing this term finds it easy to choose a real-world term that is specifically insulting to females, rather than one that fits the gameworld even in the slightest. "Gortok" may be a perfectly fine insult in-game, but "bitch means gortok bitch" is an after-the-fact justification. If female gortoks had some notable temperament that was different from male gortoks, and it was worth comparing people specifically to the female of the species, it would make equal sense to compare Zalanthan men or women to this creature because, again, they aren't literally the same thing. It doesn't matter if they are the same sex in their respective species.  That only matters if gender is relevant to the insult.

At any rate, an insult doesn't have to pertain to the special characteristics of anything.  There isn't anything particularly noteworthy in terms of negative characteristics about people who prefer sex with older women, but motherfucker is still an insult.

Incest taboos. You aren't one of these that thinks "motherfucker" refers to anyone's mother, are you? That's a jokey reframing of the term that is quite old and cliche by now.

Insults don't have to make any sense at all.  We don't call males "dicks" because there's some special negative characteristic of penises that is applicable to men, but none of us are complaining about it.

Genital taboos.  Dicks and assholes excrete distasteful waste products, just like the people being called these terms act in ways that are distasteful to others. There are reasons that calling someone a "dick" or an "asshole" is an insult, calling someone the "head" of something means they are the leader, and calling someone "my right hand" means they are an important assistant that carries out tasks. (I'm assuming you're able to suss these out.) Metaphor works in a systematic way. It is not arbitrary. There are books about this, if you're interested.

And it's definitely not because of special characteristics that correspond, specially and specifically, to characteristics of female humanoids.

Is being female not a characteristic of female humanoids?

Is being female the characteristic that you are insulting? If not, there's no reason that you need to compare someone using an animal term of the same gender. (Ever-so-conveniently arriving at the same exact gendered insult you'd use in real life.)

I'm fairly sure catchall is referencing the feminist critique of the word, where the idea is that it's used to suppress outspoken women or something.

Nope, not at all. I don't identify as a feminist or even agree with the majority of contemporary feminist theory.  "Dick" is pretty much just as stupid if it's used only for males (Although it is actually parallel to "asshole" in a way that "bitch" is not--see below.) I am responding to what I, personally, have seen in game, not to every possible permutation of things that wouldn't make sense. For those that use Zalanthan animal terms used gender-indistinctly as insults, that's great, and I think they should keep it up!

Simple, "bitch/asshole/dick" is not a system of equivalents, even if we accept your premise that they are equivalent in meaning. The male and neutral terms are body-part metaphors, and the female term is an animal metaphor.  You are telling me that Zalanthans also arrived at this exact system, as if by magic, and not that you're just taking a system out of real-life that reflects real-life cultural norms?

[Synthesis]

None of which is an argument against using bitch.  At best, it's an argument that you can either a) expand its scope of targets or b) invent a new word if you want to.  So...okay.  I still think it sounds silly IRL to call a male by a female-specific term, when you aren't intending to use it as an assertion of lack of manliness.  Just like it would sound a bit silly to call a woman a stud.  And yes, it sounds a bit silly to call a woman a dick, when there's a perfectly reasonable substitute that doesn't cause any gender confusion issues.

I think you're missing the broader point because you feel angry about it.  And that's cool, because that's what insults are supposed to do .  I'm not going to expand upon it, because you've missed the point twice now and offered nothing but sophistic counterarguments, and there's no reason to believe any further discussion would convince you.  I guess I was giving you too much credit by anticipating the feminist critique.  Feel free to remain offended.

I'd rather be compared to a dog than an anus, though.  So I mean, calling a woman a bitch instead of an asshole is rather an improvement, in terms of general unpleasantness.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I always figured on gortoks as being meanspirited, angry, and generally disagreeable. That's... also a lot in common with people act who are considered being "bitchy". I like bitch'tok (ie in place of bitch-dog), though I'm not as fond of either of the two, plain. Whether or not others use them as being interchangeable, if someone is being a disagreeable butt and making my life miserable, yes, they're going to probably get called a c*nt, or a bitch'tok if they're female. Just like a male would more likely get called a dick or an asshole.

It's not sexist. I'm not saying it's more shameful to be one thing than another. In both cases, I'm hurling around some nice derogatory terminology to express that. What gets me is when people want to get all sexist like 'actually' sexist.

[MeTekillot]

Terms you should not use: "it's a girl/guy thing" "you have girly/manly hands"

[greasygemo]

I believe the appropriate response to an IG sexist comment is to act confused, then point the nearest, vetted female warrior towards them for a sparring match. Followed by laughing.

[Dalmeth]

Is constraint necessary for creativity?  Of course it is.  Otherwise, I might be screaming at the top of my lungs to get my point across rather than typing it.  We might be sitting around a fire in a cave somewhere rather than playing a Dark Sun-based roleplaying game on a MUD over Telnet.  See?  At least three sets of constraints within constraints.  We have Dark Sun, and have modified it to our tastes.  We are playing a game, of the roleplaying variety.  And we are using Telnet, in the context of a MUD.

A better way to say it would be constraint creates a recognizable form.  The simplification of the information that reaches the senses is one of the primary tasks one undertakes in life, and it is necessary for sanity and peace of mind.  But that has no bearing on the concept of creativity.

Creativity is a wandering target.  There is no solid context for it, but it might be said that a creative constraint is one that frees up resources for use.  Property laws leave certain objects free for one person to use as they see fit (the owner), and handicap accessibility laws force the owner to make their properties free to use for handicapped persons.  The difference between a derivative and repetitive piece of work and an act of true genius is that the latter suggests a broad range of new possibilities while the use of the former is very narrow.

Are you not entertained?

The term, "bitch," is an excellent example.  At it's root, it's a dog breeding term.  Likely closely related to, "a bitch in heat."  It's essence could be said as cranky, vicious, and wholly ineffectual, or the viciousness of the ill and ailed.

But just look above at the broad variety of interpretation and controversy created from the image of an animal in its menstrual cycle.  Someone certainly was creative somewhere.

[TheBadSeed]

Just for the record, I think the whole idea of "There is no sexism on Zalanthas ever anyhow anywhere for any reason" is just plain stupid.

While I can agree that Zalanthan's can and will view eachother as equals, gender-wise, does not mean they are the same. They are as strong, smart, and capable as eachother. They hold the same positions of fighting, hunting, crafting and guarding, as well as the same positions of authority or slavery. This is IC and accepted, but that does not make them the same.

Also, it's not realistic.

Historically on Earth, males have led in fighting the wars. The reason isn't a matter of equality as much as a matter of survivabilty. Not survivabilty on an individual basis, but as a species. If 10,000 men go to war, leaving 10,0000 women behind, and only 200 return, there is the potential that there will be 10,000 new babies the next season. That would not be the case if 10,000 women went to war and only 200 returned. The whole popular smear on Mormonism is based on those similar circumstance. A group of men and women left the midwest to settle in Utah, most of the men died in battles with native's on the way, and those that were left took several wives to "propegate".  Since then, they have been smeared as polygamists.

Gender equality stops at capability. There is no need to assume that someone can't or won't be called a gender related insult. There is also no reason to believe that someone won't believe that there is a better place for one gender or another as far as tasks.

[Delirium]

braceyourselves.jpg

[Synthesis]

aw-jeez.jpg

[Malken]

[RogueGunslinger]

[AmandaGreathouse]

Yeah. I'm going to just put what I was going to post here in a report because it's recent, but sometimes RL Things getting carried in game can make things severely unenjoyable for the person on the receiving end.

[BleakOne]

INCOMING!

*ducks for cover*

[Nyr]

Gender equality stops at capability. There is no need to assume that someone can't or won't be called a gender related insult. There is also no reason to believe that someone won't believe that there is a better place for one gender or another as far as tasks.

The reason to believe that someone won't believe that there is a better place for one gender or another as far as tasks are concerned would be the setting of the game, outlined by the documentation.  I'll bold the relevant points from the quickstart guide.

Avoid imposing your own interpretations and norms on the game world. For example, there is no sexism on Zalanthas; women and men are treated equally. This means that the following would not happen in Armageddon: a man expressing shame at being beaten sparring by a woman; someone referring to women as needing protection or coddling; a woman being shamed for sexual promiscuity while a man is praised for it. Attitudes towards sexuality are broad. Homosexuality is common, and not seen as aberrant. Multiple sex partners are common among Zalanthans, particularly in the upper classes. If you intend to roleplay out adult scenes, please make sure you are aware of our consent rules.

I get that you're mostly saying that men can't have babies.  What I intend to address is your last comment that seems to go beyond that.

If you wish to discriminate against someone based on gender, you can do that in real life.  (Or better yet, don't; it's not very nice.)  In this game, however, that will be viewed as myopic roleplay, disregard for the documentation, and contrariness all for the sake of being contrary.  Playing the male PC that looks down on women as weaker doesn't make you edgy or cool.  It doesn't necessarily mean that you are a newbie with no idea about how the game itself is meant to be played, either, but that's what everyone is going to think.  Worse, they may think that this is as complex as your roleplay gets:  retreading the same ground that history itself has trod as though it made you some sort of groundbreaking roleplay god (when in reality, it'd peg you at somewhere slightly above a scripted NPC).

Now don't get me wrong, you're free to have the opinion that it's stupid.  Acting on that opinion with roleplayed opinions to the contrary would also be stupid (potentially more stupid since we have found that it to be important enough to remind players not to impose their own interpretations and norms on the gameworld).

[AmandaGreathouse]

Request sent.

On that note... yeah, I kinda agree with Nyr here. Highly.

It's one thing to think someone might be weaker because they're smaller. It's entirely different to think they're weaker because they have le vaj.

[benegesseritwitch]

Hmm. Now that I think about it, in my brief time playing, I've already encountered a few situations that could've been construed as sexist. However, I'm going to give the players the benefit of the doubt and assume it was a vibe my character was putting out. I'll try to be more observant of this issue IG in the future.

[Harmless]

There are clearly two kinds of people in Zalanthas: those who kick ass and chew bubblegum, be them male or female, and those who clearly don't.

I am proud to say I have seen roughly equal numbers of males who kick ass as females who do. If one were to disagree with that, they would need to provide data to back it up. So good luck with that.

But what Zalanthas lacks is good terminology to distinguish ass kickers from softies without dragging RL sexist terminology into the game. What do Zalanthans call softies? I have heard Tregil, gimpka, jozhal, and quirri. I like these, but I sense players are getting bored of those terms, or else why would bitch, dick etc keep leaking in? We need more creative terminology that we can agree on to stave off lazy RP. Dragging genitalia back into the discussion when genitalia mean nothing, nothing towards who is an ass kicker chewing bubblegum and who sn't, is totally inappropriate in Zalanthas.

[Kol]

Stump-humper. 

[Narf]

There are clearly two kinds of people in Zalanthas: those who kick ass and chew bubblegum, be them male or female, and those who clearly don't.

I am proud to say I have seen roughly equal numbers of males who kick ass as females who do. If one were to disagree with that, they would need to provide data to back it up. So good luck with that.

But what Zalanthas lacks is good terminology to distinguish ass kickers from softies without dragging RL sexist terminology into the game. What do Zalanthans call softies? I have heard Tregil, gimpka, jozhal, and quirri. I like these, but I sense players are getting bored of those terms, or else why would bitch, dick etc keep leaking in? We need more creative terminology that we can agree on to stave off lazy RP. Dragging genitalia back into the discussion when genitalia mean nothing, nothing towards who is an ass kicker chewing bubblegum and who sn't, is totally inappropriate in Zalanthas.

Quirri doesn't seem like a good moniker for weak people. Quirri's are big carnivorous animals (cats) are they not? I always use tregil myself. Even the word sounds meek.

[Harmless]

I've seen quirri used, but that isn't the point. Once I saw the word "coward" get about 5 simultaneous angry and butthurt glares, looks, and "fuck you's" which I think is awesome    they certainly didn't need to use the word "pussy" to get the hate.

You know what needs more attention are plants. Harder to visualize, yes, but the variety is astounding. Yes, plantlife knowledge is limited in a desert world, but some kinds of plants grow enough that everyone should know about SOME, and the word "pansy" IRL describes a rather cute, diminutive flower.

[Marauder Moe]

English has plenty.

Silky, fancy, scrawny, weak, puny, twig-boned, limp, cowering, skulking, gutless, spineless, coward, boot-licking, feeble, trembling, shivering, quivering, craven, cringing, lurking, sniveling, blubbering, whimpering, bothered, crawling, creeping, beggarly, pathetic, pitiful, fretting, withered, wilted, keening, tearful, mewling, moaning, baying, bawling, shrieking, blustering, wailing, fainting, fussing, decrepit, fragile, frail, spindly, drooping, flimsy, brittle, timid, aaaaaaaand, well, softy works too.

[Synthesis]

"You lifera-livered pfafna!"

"You maidenflower-sucking, bakri-balled, chedya-dicked sikilip!"

"Your mother chewed sandspider and your father smelt of jimpka!"

[MeTekillot]

Gutless and snivelling are personal favorites of mine.

[TheBadSeed]

Gender equality stops at capability. There is no need to assume that someone can't or won't be called a gender related insult. There is also no reason to believe that someone won't believe that there is a better place for one gender or another as far as tasks.

The reason to believe that someone won't believe that there is a better place for one gender or another as far as tasks are concerned would be the setting of the game, outlined by the documentation.  I'll bold the relevant points from the quickstart guide.

Avoid imposing your own interpretations and norms on the game world. For example, there is no sexism on Zalanthas; women and men are treated equally. This means that the following would not happen in Armageddon: a man expressing shame at being beaten sparring by a woman; someone referring to women as needing protection or coddling; a woman being shamed for sexual promiscuity while a man is praised for it. Attitudes towards sexuality are broad. Homosexuality is common, and not seen as aberrant. Multiple sex partners are common among Zalanthans, particularly in the upper classes. If you intend to roleplay out adult scenes, please make sure you are aware of our consent rules.

I get that you're mostly saying that men can't have babies.  What I intend to address is your last comment that seems to go beyond that.

If you wish to discriminate against someone based on gender, you can do that in real life.  (Or better yet, don't; it's not very nice.)  In this game, however, that will be viewed as myopic roleplay, disregard for the documentation, and contrariness all for the sake of being contrary.  Playing the male PC that looks down on women as weaker doesn't make you edgy or cool.  It doesn't necessarily mean that you are a newbie with no idea about how the game itself is meant to be played, either, but that's what everyone is going to think.  Worse, they may think that this is as complex as your roleplay gets:  retreading the same ground that history itself has trod as though it made you some sort of groundbreaking roleplay god (when in reality, it'd peg you at somewhere slightly above a scripted NPC).

Now don't get me wrong, you're free to have the opinion that it's stupid.  Acting on that opinion with roleplayed opinions to the contrary would also be stupid (potentially more stupid since we have found that it to be important enough to remind players not to impose their own interpretations and norms on the gameworld).

Sexism in Zalanthas woulnd't be a matter of believing that one gender is weaker or stronger. That's not what I'm saying, and certainly not what I believe in real life, but thank you for your assumptions and inferences. They are not necessary nor requested. In fact, your comments are rather insulting in their assumptions.

I'm simply pointing out that one certain gender is able to propegate the species more than another gender, and therefore would be considered more important to the survival of the species. To think that people wouldn't know or care about such things and would treat all exactly the same is asking for more of a stretch than my mammalian mind is willing to make.

[Marauder Moe]

Regardless, that topic is a bit off the rails here.  Maybe make a new thread?  Or better yet, search up some old ones.  Pretty sure both your points and Nyr's have all come up before.

[Nyr]

Sexism in Zalanthas woulnd't be a matter of believing that one gender is weaker or stronger. That's not what I'm saying, and certainly not what I believe in real life, but thank you for your assumptions and inferences. They are not necessary nor requested. In fact, your comments are rather insulting in their assumptions.

I'm simply pointing out that one certain gender is able to propegate the species more than another gender, and therefore would be considered more important to the survival of the species. To think that people wouldn't know or care about such things and would treat all exactly the same is asking for more of a stretch than my mammalian mind is willing to make.

I understood that the majority of your point was that men can't have babies, so I said that.  I must have misunderstood this line which seemed to go beyond (and a bit contrary to) what you said prior.

Gender equality stops at capability. There is no need to assume that someone can't or won't be called a gender related insult. There is also no reason to believe that someone won't believe that there is a better place for one gender or another as far as tasks.

It must've gone over my head because I misunderstood it entirely.  At any rate, Marauder Moe is right, this has been covered previously many times.  In fact, this thread got derailed into discussing many of these things you've brought up, and this post actually links to a plethora of gender equality threads.

[Harmless]

No matter how often sexism in Zalanthas gets "covered," it never seems to stick when I actually play. Turns out it's hard for people to shut down their basic assumptions and prejudices. Who'd have thought.

And have fun being the one chump willing to file a player complaint about it when it does happen. Because they'll just file one right back at you. Welcome to Armageddon, where 10-year-olds run GMH's and twinks STILL have the last word.

[Nyr]

And have fun being the one chump willing to file a player complaint about it when it does happen. Because they'll just file one right back at you. Welcome to Armageddon, where 10-year-olds run GMH's and twinks STILL have the last word.

Just to clarify a few points that may not be clear:

If you do file a player complaint at all, it's filed to staff.  Staff read it.  It is not forwarded to the other player.
If we need to take action because of a player complaint, we will do so.
If a player "retaliates" against action taken over a player complaint by filing a "retaliatory" player complaint (because they have an idea of who may have complained about them), we'll just tell them to get over it and play by the rules.  There would be no reason to actually tell the original complainer about this.

So no, twinks do not have the last word.

[Harmless]

Nyr: true, but only in the situation where the original complaint comes from a player who has never done anything deserving of a player complaint themselves.

edit: blah. forget it.

[Nyr]

Nyr: true, but only in the situation where the original complaint comes from a player who has never done anything deserving of a player complaint themselves.

Well...don't do bad things that are worthy of being dealt with by staff and you won't have players put in a player complaint against your playing that then gets dealt with by staff.  I guess. 

Now, the real point isn't whether or not the gender equality policy can be enforced. I agree, there are ways for it to be enforced. But that hasn't stopped it from constantly being violated in the years I've played and by now I'm just used to it.

We're happy to look into incidents.  However, if they are not reported, we can't let the offending players know how to improve, and unfortunately, that forces the cycle to continue.

[TheBadSeed]

I understood that the majority of your point was that men can't have babies, so I said that.  I must have misunderstood this line which seemed to go beyond (and a bit contrary to) what you said prior.

Gender equality stops at capability. There is no need to assume that someone can't or won't be called a gender related insult. There is also no reason to believe that someone won't believe that there is a better place for one gender or another as far as tasks.

It must've gone over my head because I misunderstood it entirely. 

Alright, fair enough. If you view the sentence completely independently of the rest of the post, I can see how that would happen.

My point about "equality" isn't a mathematical one. I didn't mean for lack of equality to mean one greater or less. By lack of equality, I meant lack of being completely the same in capabilities.
"Gender equality stops at capability."

• Males are incapable of bearing children, that makes them different them different
• Females are incapable of impregnating someone, that makes them different
• Most females cannot grow beards, that makes them different

"There is no need to assume that someone won't be called a gender related insult"

• People all have different backgrounds regarding their personal discrimination toward everyone. If someone grew up with a domineering parent figure of one kind or the other or has had poor experiences with on gender or another, there is no reason to assume they might have some predisposed attitude, and predisposed ideas of said gender.
• This doesn't mean simple canned sexism like "Men are strong, women are weak", "Girls are smart, men are stupid", this would be bad.
• This might mean "All men are uncaring whore mongers, or all women are bitches" This would be a perfectly IC.
  

"There is no reason to believe that someone won't believe that there is a better place for one gender or another as far as tasks."

• In several of the tribes, there are definite gender roles. I've know at least one tribe where I've heard IC (I have not read the official clan docs as I've never been part of that tribe) that the women are held on high because only from their wombs do new tribe members spring. The males of that tribe might mate elsewhere, but their offspring will never be considered part of the tribe.
• Jobs like nannying would be much easier for females, especially if the job required them to wetnurse as well. Poorer folks that could not hire would likely leave most of the early child rearing to the one who could provide.
• You need someone to spy on Lady Fancy-Silks, who is jealous of all other women, and wants to bed every man she sees. A male would probably be required to get close.

Anyway, I'm done derailing.

[MeTekillot]

• This might mean "All men are uncaring whore mongers, or all women are bitches" This would be a perfectly IC.
  
  

I don't really think so.

EDIT: Well, perhaps it could be. As long as they then assume that people with brown hair are all thieves because a guy with brown hair would steal from them regularly, and things like that.[/list]

[Marauder Moe]

Damned kids, get off my lawn!  http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,44772.0.html

[Harmless]

Well Moe, you saved your thread from derail, now it's your job to reclaim this one and remind us what the hell we should be talking about. Constraints? All I can think of now are men in corsets. Help me. What should we discuss, oh wise one? 

[Marauder Moe]

Well, I thought that insults against weaklings, ones don't resort to sexist slurs, was on-topic.

Though really my objection to the derail goes back to the heart of the matter.  Even if we can justify some pieces of anachronistic language or behavior, I think often we're better if we don't.  We should take restrictions like that voluntarily and exercise our creativity to work through them.

Also, it's not just about finding Zalanthan-specific alternatives.  We can reach back into some of English's more archaic realms for things, perhaps.  You'll note everything in my softy insult list can be found in a dictionary.

Though we can also give new Zalanthas-specific meanings to existing words, which we have already done quite a bit: skinny, long-neck, sharp, 'breed, 'rinther (well, that's a novel word that has English roots), stumpy, etc.

[Jenred]

More creative language, of course, adds more flavor to the game setting, rather than us just speaking plain old English that might be appropriate in any other domain.

More creative language does not, inherently, make the game setting more flavorful.
I've found that things said in plain English, if appropriate, timely, witty, forceful, direct, flavorful, or whatever other adverbial/adjectival description you want to apply can be just as flavorful as someone who resorts to a creative but ultimately uninteresting/bland/repetitive linguistic construction.

Simply put, the content to me is more important than the delivery method.

[Marauder Moe]

Fine, whatever.

This isn't a blanket suggestion, else I'd be advocating for the construction of actual languages for Armageddon.

[Synthesis]

Fine, whatever.

This isn't a blanket suggestion, else I'd be advocating for the construction of actual languages for Armageddon.

It's about to get all Tolkien up in this muthafucka.

[Harmless]

You know what?

I think I finally passed some kind of test related to these "constraints."

About three months ago, I went through about a monthlong period of indecision about a PC I was playing, considering storage, basically. The reason, was, as usual, that RP got kind of dry for a while, most of my contacts had died, and along with it, the possibility of a role and plots that I had originally rolled up the PC to get. In the past in this situation, I probably would have stored or suicided quite readily.

Similar to prior "do I store" junctures, there were also good reasons NOT to store, but it was impossible to say whether they outweighed my reasons to do it. In the end, I was stuck in indecision. In the past the frustration of being stuck on this issue often pushed me to do the storing, because that brought an end to the indecision and lack of enjoyment this hobby normally provides.

However, this time, I toughed it out. I told myself, "My character doesn't have the option to just disappear, and there are still things that may happen for them." More importantly, I realized that the mere memory of PCs who were now dead would be stored along with my PC, never to have even a chance of being heard. That decision, I felt, was not mine to make. It would have to be left to chance when and how those stories died off.

Maybe on a more basic level, I was just holding to a promise I made to myself some time ago that I would, eventually, need to learn to control my urges to store characters and start fresh, because I have done it just too many times so far in my "career," of arma RP. I wanted to see, "What happens if I DON'T store this time?" Seeing that would require simply forcing myself to not submit that request.

So, I decided to do something in game that, though not at all spectacular, was enough to spark my interest again in them to a degree enough that today, I look forward to 2013 and playing this character out, (as well as the next one of course). This is, after all, just a hobby, and I am pleased to feel that even though I've gone through some pretty low times lately (both with this game and in real life) that at least, during the shit that 2013 brings, I will have arma when I want it to unwind and look forward to on weekends.

In realizing all of these things, I discovered that the root issue here was not that my RP should be under the 'constraint' of no storage allowed, since I do feel storage is the right thing to do at times, but that my overall problem was always one of pessimism ruling my decision making. Pessimism that, right now, I don't feel any longer. It was maybe a month and a half ago that I started to feel optimistic again and it's only grown since. I may have lost my character to a transient state of dissatisfaction. If I had lost my character today, it would sting, and I would feel quite shitty and unaccomplished. Knowing that, the prospect of me ever considering storage seems silly, but yet I did.

What I'm trying to say here is that I really dig the idea of constraints, and how many beautiful constraints this lovely game and its creators have made for us. Just as in real life, constraints imposed on us by authority can force us to "build character." Arma is a precious opportunity to experience constraints without them actually being real constraints.

So, what I'm saying is, I'm in an awesome BDSM relationship right now where Mantishead is my dominatrix and I'm the sub, and I'm really happy that I'm being tied up and whipped so nicely while at the same time being able to 'quit OOC' when I need to. 

p.s. thanks again so much for putting 'quit OOC' in, you guys are the best. p.p.s. I say that, and yet I have never even needed to use quit OOC once yet; it's great to have it though ^^.

[musashi]

So, what I'm saying is, I'm in an awesome BDSM relationship right now where Mantishead is my dominatrix and I'm the sub, and I'm really happy that I'm being tied up and whipped so nicely while at the same time being able to 'quit OOC' when I need to.  

Morgenes gave you a safety word.

[Morrolan]

Morgenes gave you a safety word.

>quit ooc vanilla

[Norcal]

Also, it's not just about finding Zalanthan-specific alternatives.  We can reach back into some of English's more archaic realms for things, perhaps.  You'll note everything in my softy insult list can be found in a dictionary.

Though we can also give new Zalanthas-specific meanings to existing words, which we have already done quite a bit: skinny, long-neck, sharp, 'breed, 'rinther (well, that's a novel word that has English roots), stumpy, etc.

I agree with this.
Art for art sake is great.  However, the goal of language is communication. Using Zalanthan specific terms for anything (not just insults etc.) is great, but might not always communicate exactly what you want. "Zalanthising" English words by slightly changing their meaning, pronunciation or the context in which they are used gives you the ability to still communicate, but to contextualize your communication and make it beautiful IC.

Yet surely there are more constraints to Zalanthas than just language! There are other cultural constraints as well as physical ones that would be cool to look at in this thread.

Now I am not trying to derail, so if this is off topic, just tell me to Tok off.

[greasygemo]

Now I am not trying to derail, so if this is off topic, just tell me to Tok kank off.