Constraints and Creativity

[Kalai]

Clarify my experience: I've called and heard called both male and female characters " 'toks " and it works rightly.
Monosyllabic, gender-neutral, and captures the essence of a cantankerous canine who will crush your throat in its jaws.

I mean, I wouldn't call a man a 'stud' or a 'sire' as an insult so 'bitch' seems limited.   I might call either 'dogs', but we don't got a ton of those in Zalanthas so 'tok will do better.

[Synthesis]

Once again, insults don't have to make literal sense.  They just have to be commonly understood to mean something derogatory.  "Bitch" is commonly understood to mean either a) a female who is an asshole or b) a man who is wimpy.  Connotation (b) isn't allowable on Zalanthas, because accusing a man of being woman-like breaks the gender-equality rule.  Option (a) is reasonable.  The fact that it's only applied to females isn't discriminatory any more than calling a woman a woman and a man a man is discriminatory.  In the modern era, it's purely definitional, and there's a male-only equivalent, so I don't see what the problem is.

Now, there is another antiquated sense of the word, meaning a woman who is sexually promiscuous, but I don't recall ever having heard it used in that manner in conversation.  Obviously if you were using it in that sense, it wouldn't be kosher on Zalanthas in general, because there's no broad culture of monogamy, sexual promiscuity isn't generally looked down upon, and whoring is a generally acceptable profession.  Now, I suppose a culture that valued monogamy would be able to use slut or variations thereof, but that connotation of bitch is so antiquated that I don't think anyone (players, that is) would really get it.

And  yeah, we call both men and women "dogs," but each has a different connotation.  In American culture, at least, "dog" applied to men means "scoundrel," whereas applied to a woman it means "ugly."  If you start mixing and matching, you're only going to confuse people.

[Kalai]

Hmm ... okay then. I'm going to use Zalanthan-specific insults when I can because I don't actually understand what swear/insults mean. 

[Marauder Moe]

For the record, personally I'm OK with most RL swear words for use in Zalanthas.  If a word is well-established in English and it's concept is solidly appropriate for Zalanthas, go for it.  If it's a stretch, though, one ought to put at least a little effort into figuring out an alternative.

"Bitch" is probably a bit too much of a stretch in my opinion, given that so many of it's meanings/usages are not Zalanthas-appropriate.  Gortok/'tok is a fine alternative, as long as people realize that it's not an exact synonym.

[Synthesis]

...it only has 2 modern usages, as far as I know.  One is obviously verboten.  I fail to see how this is confusing to anyone who went to public school, at least in the United States.

I'm fairly sure catchall is referencing the feminist critique of the word, where the idea is that it's used to suppress outspoken women or something.  I don't really buy that line of thought, because (at least, in my experience) it's never been used to denote being outspoken or opinionated.  I suppose that in the early to mid-20th century, when a woman being outspoken was less socially acceptable, it could be construed as rude, and therefore bitchy, and the critique would apply.  Today, however, is not the early to mid-20th century.

[Marauder Moe]

While I disagree that those connotations are no longer applicable/offensive, that's not really the heart of the matters.  It's about a fence around the guidelines, and the impression you may make on newer, younger, and/or less enlightened players.

Even if you're able, in the heat of an IC altercation, to say "bitch" in a way that's completely devoid of sexist connotations, there are other players who may not be so discerning.  That could easily take away nothing but that it's OK to use the word "bitch" in Armageddon, and may start going around calling a dude a "whiny little bitch" or something.

EDIT: And, of course, we are more creative when we constrain ourselves rather than stretch our language anachronistically/inappropriately out of convenience.

[catchall]

It wouldn't make sense to call a male Zalanthan a "bitch," because bitches are female.

Zalanthans also aren't gortoks.

Neither are they assholes, dicks, shit-stains, turds, or tregils.  What's your point? 

Oh my goodness, you're a silly person. Do I have to requote what you said just a few lines after quoting it the first time and spell everything out for you?

It wouldn't make sense to call a male Zalanthan a "bitch," because bitches are female.

This is not how metaphor works. You are already comparing things that are not literally the same, as you so sagely pointed out with "shit-stain." There is no requirement that you only establish metaphors between animals with the same reproductive function.

There's a reason people choose the word "bitch," and it's not because of special characteristics of female gortoks.

Okay, so what's this mysterious reason?

Because the target is female, and the player choosing this term finds it easy to choose a real-world term that is specifically insulting to females, rather than one that fits the gameworld even in the slightest. "Gortok" may be a perfectly fine insult in-game, but "bitch means gortok bitch" is an after-the-fact justification. If female gortoks had some notable temperament that was different from male gortoks, and it was worth comparing people specifically to the female of the species, it would make equal sense to compare Zalanthan men or women to this creature because, again, they aren't literally the same thing. It doesn't matter if they are the same sex in their respective species.  That only matters if gender is relevant to the insult.

At any rate, an insult doesn't have to pertain to the special characteristics of anything.  There isn't anything particularly noteworthy in terms of negative characteristics about people who prefer sex with older women, but motherfucker is still an insult.

Incest taboos. You aren't one of these that thinks "motherfucker" refers to anyone's mother, are you? That's a jokey reframing of the term that is quite old and cliche by now.

Insults don't have to make any sense at all.  We don't call males "dicks" because there's some special negative characteristic of penises that is applicable to men, but none of us are complaining about it.

Genital taboos.  Dicks and assholes excrete distasteful waste products, just like the people being called these terms act in ways that are distasteful to others. There are reasons that calling someone a "dick" or an "asshole" is an insult, calling someone the "head" of something means they are the leader, and calling someone "my right hand" means they are an important assistant that carries out tasks. (I'm assuming you're able to suss these out.) Metaphor works in a systematic way. It is not arbitrary. There are books about this, if you're interested.

And it's definitely not because of special characteristics that correspond, specially and specifically, to characteristics of female humanoids.

Is being female not a characteristic of female humanoids?

Is being female the characteristic that you are insulting? If not, there's no reason that you need to compare someone using an animal term of the same gender. (Ever-so-conveniently arriving at the same exact gendered insult you'd use in real life.)

I'm fairly sure catchall is referencing the feminist critique of the word, where the idea is that it's used to suppress outspoken women or something.

Nope, not at all. I don't identify as a feminist or even agree with the majority of contemporary feminist theory.  "Dick" is pretty much just as stupid if it's used only for males (Although it is actually parallel to "asshole" in a way that "bitch" is not--see below.) I am responding to what I, personally, have seen in game, not to every possible permutation of things that wouldn't make sense. For those that use Zalanthan animal terms used gender-indistinctly as insults, that's great, and I think they should keep it up!

Simple, "bitch/asshole/dick" is not a system of equivalents, even if we accept your premise that they are equivalent in meaning. The male and neutral terms are body-part metaphors, and the female term is an animal metaphor.  You are telling me that Zalanthans also arrived at this exact system, as if by magic, and not that you're just taking a system out of real-life that reflects real-life cultural norms?

[Synthesis]

None of which is an argument against using bitch.  At best, it's an argument that you can either a) expand its scope of targets or b) invent a new word if you want to.  So...okay.  I still think it sounds silly IRL to call a male by a female-specific term, when you aren't intending to use it as an assertion of lack of manliness.  Just like it would sound a bit silly to call a woman a stud.  And yes, it sounds a bit silly to call a woman a dick, when there's a perfectly reasonable substitute that doesn't cause any gender confusion issues.

I think you're missing the broader point because you feel angry about it.  And that's cool, because that's what insults are supposed to do .  I'm not going to expand upon it, because you've missed the point twice now and offered nothing but sophistic counterarguments, and there's no reason to believe any further discussion would convince you.  I guess I was giving you too much credit by anticipating the feminist critique.  Feel free to remain offended.

I'd rather be compared to a dog than an anus, though.  So I mean, calling a woman a bitch instead of an asshole is rather an improvement, in terms of general unpleasantness.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I always figured on gortoks as being meanspirited, angry, and generally disagreeable. That's... also a lot in common with people act who are considered being "bitchy". I like bitch'tok (ie in place of bitch-dog), though I'm not as fond of either of the two, plain. Whether or not others use them as being interchangeable, if someone is being a disagreeable butt and making my life miserable, yes, they're going to probably get called a c*nt, or a bitch'tok if they're female. Just like a male would more likely get called a dick or an asshole.

It's not sexist. I'm not saying it's more shameful to be one thing than another. In both cases, I'm hurling around some nice derogatory terminology to express that. What gets me is when people want to get all sexist like 'actually' sexist.

[MeTekillot]

Terms you should not use: "it's a girl/guy thing" "you have girly/manly hands"

[greasygemo]

I believe the appropriate response to an IG sexist comment is to act confused, then point the nearest, vetted female warrior towards them for a sparring match. Followed by laughing.

[Dalmeth]

Is constraint necessary for creativity?  Of course it is.  Otherwise, I might be screaming at the top of my lungs to get my point across rather than typing it.  We might be sitting around a fire in a cave somewhere rather than playing a Dark Sun-based roleplaying game on a MUD over Telnet.  See?  At least three sets of constraints within constraints.  We have Dark Sun, and have modified it to our tastes.  We are playing a game, of the roleplaying variety.  And we are using Telnet, in the context of a MUD.

A better way to say it would be constraint creates a recognizable form.  The simplification of the information that reaches the senses is one of the primary tasks one undertakes in life, and it is necessary for sanity and peace of mind.  But that has no bearing on the concept of creativity.

Creativity is a wandering target.  There is no solid context for it, but it might be said that a creative constraint is one that frees up resources for use.  Property laws leave certain objects free for one person to use as they see fit (the owner), and handicap accessibility laws force the owner to make their properties free to use for handicapped persons.  The difference between a derivative and repetitive piece of work and an act of true genius is that the latter suggests a broad range of new possibilities while the use of the former is very narrow.

Are you not entertained?

The term, "bitch," is an excellent example.  At it's root, it's a dog breeding term.  Likely closely related to, "a bitch in heat."  It's essence could be said as cranky, vicious, and wholly ineffectual, or the viciousness of the ill and ailed.

But just look above at the broad variety of interpretation and controversy created from the image of an animal in its menstrual cycle.  Someone certainly was creative somewhere.

[TheBadSeed]

Just for the record, I think the whole idea of "There is no sexism on Zalanthas ever anyhow anywhere for any reason" is just plain stupid.

While I can agree that Zalanthan's can and will view eachother as equals, gender-wise, does not mean they are the same. They are as strong, smart, and capable as eachother. They hold the same positions of fighting, hunting, crafting and guarding, as well as the same positions of authority or slavery. This is IC and accepted, but that does not make them the same.

Also, it's not realistic.

Historically on Earth, males have led in fighting the wars. The reason isn't a matter of equality as much as a matter of survivabilty. Not survivabilty on an individual basis, but as a species. If 10,000 men go to war, leaving 10,0000 women behind, and only 200 return, there is the potential that there will be 10,000 new babies the next season. That would not be the case if 10,000 women went to war and only 200 returned. The whole popular smear on Mormonism is based on those similar circumstance. A group of men and women left the midwest to settle in Utah, most of the men died in battles with native's on the way, and those that were left took several wives to "propegate".  Since then, they have been smeared as polygamists.

Gender equality stops at capability. There is no need to assume that someone can't or won't be called a gender related insult. There is also no reason to believe that someone won't believe that there is a better place for one gender or another as far as tasks.

[Delirium]

braceyourselves.jpg

[Synthesis]

aw-jeez.jpg

[Malken]

[RogueGunslinger]

[AmandaGreathouse]

Yeah. I'm going to just put what I was going to post here in a report because it's recent, but sometimes RL Things getting carried in game can make things severely unenjoyable for the person on the receiving end.

[BleakOne]

INCOMING!

*ducks for cover*

[Nyr]

Gender equality stops at capability. There is no need to assume that someone can't or won't be called a gender related insult. There is also no reason to believe that someone won't believe that there is a better place for one gender or another as far as tasks.

The reason to believe that someone won't believe that there is a better place for one gender or another as far as tasks are concerned would be the setting of the game, outlined by the documentation.  I'll bold the relevant points from the quickstart guide.

Avoid imposing your own interpretations and norms on the game world. For example, there is no sexism on Zalanthas; women and men are treated equally. This means that the following would not happen in Armageddon: a man expressing shame at being beaten sparring by a woman; someone referring to women as needing protection or coddling; a woman being shamed for sexual promiscuity while a man is praised for it. Attitudes towards sexuality are broad. Homosexuality is common, and not seen as aberrant. Multiple sex partners are common among Zalanthans, particularly in the upper classes. If you intend to roleplay out adult scenes, please make sure you are aware of our consent rules.

I get that you're mostly saying that men can't have babies.  What I intend to address is your last comment that seems to go beyond that.

If you wish to discriminate against someone based on gender, you can do that in real life.  (Or better yet, don't; it's not very nice.)  In this game, however, that will be viewed as myopic roleplay, disregard for the documentation, and contrariness all for the sake of being contrary.  Playing the male PC that looks down on women as weaker doesn't make you edgy or cool.  It doesn't necessarily mean that you are a newbie with no idea about how the game itself is meant to be played, either, but that's what everyone is going to think.  Worse, they may think that this is as complex as your roleplay gets:  retreading the same ground that history itself has trod as though it made you some sort of groundbreaking roleplay god (when in reality, it'd peg you at somewhere slightly above a scripted NPC).

Now don't get me wrong, you're free to have the opinion that it's stupid.  Acting on that opinion with roleplayed opinions to the contrary would also be stupid (potentially more stupid since we have found that it to be important enough to remind players not to impose their own interpretations and norms on the gameworld).

[AmandaGreathouse]

Request sent.

On that note... yeah, I kinda agree with Nyr here. Highly.

It's one thing to think someone might be weaker because they're smaller. It's entirely different to think they're weaker because they have le vaj.

[benegesseritwitch]

Hmm. Now that I think about it, in my brief time playing, I've already encountered a few situations that could've been construed as sexist. However, I'm going to give the players the benefit of the doubt and assume it was a vibe my character was putting out. I'll try to be more observant of this issue IG in the future.

[Harmless]

There are clearly two kinds of people in Zalanthas: those who kick ass and chew bubblegum, be them male or female, and those who clearly don't.

I am proud to say I have seen roughly equal numbers of males who kick ass as females who do. If one were to disagree with that, they would need to provide data to back it up. So good luck with that.

But what Zalanthas lacks is good terminology to distinguish ass kickers from softies without dragging RL sexist terminology into the game. What do Zalanthans call softies? I have heard Tregil, gimpka, jozhal, and quirri. I like these, but I sense players are getting bored of those terms, or else why would bitch, dick etc keep leaking in? We need more creative terminology that we can agree on to stave off lazy RP. Dragging genitalia back into the discussion when genitalia mean nothing, nothing towards who is an ass kicker chewing bubblegum and who sn't, is totally inappropriate in Zalanthas.

[Kol]

Stump-humper. 

[Narf]

There are clearly two kinds of people in Zalanthas: those who kick ass and chew bubblegum, be them male or female, and those who clearly don't.

I am proud to say I have seen roughly equal numbers of males who kick ass as females who do. If one were to disagree with that, they would need to provide data to back it up. So good luck with that.

But what Zalanthas lacks is good terminology to distinguish ass kickers from softies without dragging RL sexist terminology into the game. What do Zalanthans call softies? I have heard Tregil, gimpka, jozhal, and quirri. I like these, but I sense players are getting bored of those terms, or else why would bitch, dick etc keep leaking in? We need more creative terminology that we can agree on to stave off lazy RP. Dragging genitalia back into the discussion when genitalia mean nothing, nothing towards who is an ass kicker chewing bubblegum and who sn't, is totally inappropriate in Zalanthas.

Quirri doesn't seem like a good moniker for weak people. Quirri's are big carnivorous animals (cats) are they not? I always use tregil myself. Even the word sounds meek.