Making Wagons

[Nyr]

Sorry you had a bad experience.

Indeed, right now it is impossible for anyone that is not a member of a GMH, which has special tools, facilities, secret knowledge etc to turn the mass of mekillot bones, bahamet shells, wood and other resources used to create wagons... to create wagons.   The path seeker outlined is still possible, as noted it took him a lot of time, effort and work icly and oocly.

[Marc]

To be completely clear here, we will not be creating any new wagons.  If you would like access to a wagon, you will need to join a merchant house or other organization that already owns one.

Regards,
Vanth

what's impossible and what just takes connections/the right administration.

Sorry you had a bad experience.

Indeed, right now it is impossible for anyone that is not a member of a GMH, which has special tools, facilities, secret knowledge etc to turn the mass of mekillot bones, bahamet shells, wood and other resources used to create wagons... to create wagons.   The path seeker outlined is still possible, as noted it took him a lot of time, effort and work icly and oocly.

Sorry Nyr.  Were this an election, we'd be waving flip-flops in the air.  Staff changes its stance over time.  While this is acceptable, the fact it happens behind closed doors and the only time it comes out is when people bitch on the GDB leads to people feeling miffed and only reinforces the perceived culture of favoritism.  I doubt you care, but you caring does not change the situation.

As for handcarts... someone had one.  RP'd a virtual one and was given one later in his characters life.  Pretty sure it served no purpose beyond RP prop but it did exist.  There are also multiple chariot type items that are classified 'mount'.  It might not be perfect, but a lack of carts has always been a huge hole in Armageddon.  They are referenced constantly in room descriptions and there is at least one "wreck" out in the wastes.

ehh... tangents now.  Best if we keep wagons as they are:  in the hands of those who have the foresight to special app or the time to invest a 100d into a character.  Invulnerable to all but stupidity or staff intervention.

(or we could just remove all wagon doors, introduce a few "mount" carts and be happy with the bandaid until the hitch code is perfected)

[kayza]

Independent merchant are pretty easy mode.  You have unlimited sid practically so saying you spent thousands of sid on it means squat.
When you join a clan you pretty much sacrifice this power to a degree.  There should be benefits for doing it, otherwise beyond it making good RP sense why join one?

[Adhira]

It's possible one day we will flip flop and decide that we will make handcarts.  It's also possible we'll get the code worked out to allow master crafters to make the flat bed wagons that we'd like to see them able to make, and that staff had already put considerable time in to making it happen.

Right now as far as wagons and carts, tuktuks, moving pavilions etc the only way for them to get in game is for staff to build them.  Right now we are primarily NOT building these.  We have other things to do.  If handcarts in game are a necessity for you then, I'm sorry, you won't be getting those in this game, right now, possibly ever.

[Nyr]

I don't think you're getting the point made, Marc.

Adhira is a Producer. 
Adhira's point is clear:  this is the position we have now.
It is the across-the-board position. 
If it changes we'll let you know. 
We're sorry you had a bad experience.  We're sorry it was different before and did not seem/was not actually consistent.  However, it is the way it is now.
Morgenes is also a Producer.
Morgenes' point is clear:

That is what Adhira said we were working on.  It got held up trying to resurrect the hitching of mounts to wagons, which we wanted to be prerequisite for having one of these. This is still in the list to get back to. 

We might change our requirements or change our approach to this.
We also may get the code worked out.  We've (collectively) put a lot of work into this already.
This is not a current priority.  It is on the list of things to do.
We're sorry that your interest in this is higher than our priority of implementation.  Hopefully one day the two will have a happy ending together!

ehh... tangents now.  Best if we keep wagons as they are: in the hands of those who have the foresight to special app or the time to invest a 100d into a character.

No, this is how wagons are (bolded for emphasis):

Indeed, right now it is impossible for anyone that is not a member of a GMH, which has special tools, facilities, secret knowledge etc to turn the mass of mekillot bones, bahamet shells, wood and other resources used to create wagons... to create wagons.   

Special apps actually have nothing to do with it.  Yes, time and effort have something to do with it (and yes, it may be a lifelong pursuit of a PC to create a wagon on the scale of the wagons you see codedly in game).  Okay, you want smaller, player-created ones that are codedly craftable.  We get that.  See above on staff priority vs. player interest.  These two things are frequently at odds.

[Marc]

Independent merchant are pretty easy mode.  You have unlimited sid practically so saying you spent thousands of sid on it means squat.
When you join a clan you pretty much sacrifice this power to a degree.  There should be benefits for doing it, otherwise beyond it making good RP sense why join one?

Sid on any character is easy.  There are so many avenues to generate insane amounts of sid on any character.  Being independent does help with certain avenues, but hardly all.

If you're saying that being independent makes things easier, I think you fail to grasp the political landscape that is Armageddon.  Sid doesn't mean squat, you're right.  Power is everything, but the powerful need sid... I think you can connect the dots.

It's possible one day we will flip flop and decide that we will make handcarts.  It's also possible we'll get the code worked out to allow master crafters to make the flat bed wagons that we'd like to see them able to make, and that staff had already put considerable time in to making it happen.

Right now as far as wagons and carts, tuktuks, moving pavilions etc the only way for them to get in game is for staff to build them.  Right now we are primarily NOT building these.  We have other things to do.  If handcarts in game are a necessity for you then, I'm sorry, you won't be getting those in this game, right now, possibly ever.

That's fine.  It's in black & white and policy is policy.  My -point- is this was not clear before this thread as different folks have had different responses from different staff.  If you don't think this is true, that is fine, but I feel that between my experiences with Sanvean, Drunkendwarf's with Vanth, and Seeker's with (housestaff) show that there is no firm line and each case is determined individually.  Hence:

The sad fact is if Staff likes you the more likely your plots will be noticed/advance.  Shouldn't be so surprising since they are volunteers and why would anyone want to deal with pains-in-the-ass but it does raise questions on what's impossible and what just takes connections/the right administration.

Nyr:  I am fine with this.  I also don't personally care about wagons being crafted/created at this point in my life.  It would be nice if things were more flushed out etc, but it's a free game run by volunteers.  I'm not going to stress about what is in game and what isn't.

My issue is favoritism, cronyism etc and wagon making puts that in clear relief.  Some get wagons made.  Some don't.  (this is from a 15+ year look at the game) We now have a clear statement from Adhira stating how this will work moving forward.  Awesome.  This didn't exist before this thread.  My only hope now is it gets added to help_wagon_making so that new players also realize what is needed.

[kayza]

Independent merchant are pretty easy mode.  You have unlimited sid practically so saying you spent thousands of sid on it means squat.
When you join a clan you pretty much sacrifice this power to a degree.  There should be benefits for doing it, otherwise beyond it making good RP sense why join one?

If you're saying that being independent makes things easier, I think you fail to grasp the political landscape that is Armageddon.  Sid doesn't mean squat, you're right.  Power is everything, but the powerful need sid... I think you can connect the dots.

Well we are talking about Wagons and you used sid spent to say you should of got one.   All I was saying is 'so what?' 

[Maso]

Entirely derailing from the whole wagon thing....

See above on staff priority vs. player interest.  These two things are frequently at odds.

This seems a bit of an arse about face scenario. Why would staff choose to prioritise things that are not in the interest of the player base? Surely a lot of the discontent and tension between players and staff would be alleviated by choosing to prioritise things that are in the interest of the player base.

Confusing.

[Morgenes]

Entirely derailing from the whole wagon thing....

See above on staff priority vs. player interest.  These two things are frequently at odds.

This seems a bit of an arse about face scenario. Why would staff choose to prioritise things that are not in the interest of the player base? Surely a lot of the discontent and tension between players and staff would be alleviated by choosing to prioritise things that are in the interest of the player base.

Confusing.

Simply, player priorities do steer our direction, however in many cases there are other projects in the works that need to be done as well.  In many cases these other projects are equally drooled over by the player base.  Other times they are more infrastructure related or overarching that may not seem immediately obviously progressing or helping the players, but they will eventually allow us to do other things easier.

Ultimately though, we are a limited, volunteer staff.  We work on what interests us within the high priority projects that are ongoing as we have time to get to them. 

I hope that clarifies the disconnect between the vocal player focus on what is 'important' this second (which does change day by day), and what we choose to work on.

[Maso]

When you put it like that.

[Marc]

Independent merchant are pretty easy mode.  You have unlimited sid practically so saying you spent thousands of sid on it means squat.
When you join a clan you pretty much sacrifice this power to a degree.  There should be benefits for doing it, otherwise beyond it making good RP sense why join one?

If you're saying that being independent makes things easier, I think you fail to grasp the political landscape that is Armageddon.  Sid doesn't mean squat, you're right.  Power is everything, but the powerful need sid... I think you can connect the dots.

Well we are talking about Wagons and you used sid spent to say you should of got one.   All I was saying is 'so what?' 

Oh brother.  Let's try to make this simple:

"Most recently I tried to have another wagon made/purchase an existing one.  Two different noble houses offered to 'buy' the wagon for me.  Certain merchant houses and certain successful wagon-making merchants were drawn in and convinced (at least from my perspective) to build it.  City-state support was retained to acquire an old wagon hull.  Lots of characters involved over the course of in-game years and staggering (think many 100k+) amounts of sid were spent on bribes, supplies etc.  End result?  No wagons for independents but feel free to join a merchant house."

I put the non-money based things in bold for you.  This didn't work.  The sid only shows that capital was present.  A million obsidian coins dropped at the feet of a wagon-maker wouldn't have mattered at the time.

"My first independent wagon came easy enough.  I had a character with a lot of sid.  I went to a Merchant House.  I offered to buy a wagon and after a quick email exchange with Sanvean it was approved.  This was early 2000's."

This was entirely money based as the character in question had absolutely 0 political sway.   Maybe you're backwards in your thinking and the only thing that does matter is the sid?

Regardless, it has been answered by staff.  Thank you for your input.  It helped move things along.

[chrisdcoulombe]

In Elder Scrolls Skyrim, no foot prints are in the snow when you walk on it.  That is ridiculous we should attack Bethesda mercilessly.

[Twilight]

If it changes we'll let you know.

I'm happy enough with just this, if staff publically let everyone know if/when policy on wagonmaking changes, as my perception is that in the past it was something you only knew the current state of if you were specifically in communication with staff on it, and its changed over time.

[drunkendwarf]

In Elder Scrolls Skyrim, no foot prints are in the snow when you walk on it.  That is ridiculous we should attack Bethesda mercilessly.

WTF?

[Nyr]

My issue is favoritism, cronyism etc and wagon making puts that in clear relief.  Some get wagons made.  Some don't.  (this is from a 15+ year look at the game)

Favoritism, cronyism, etc. has nothing to do with why wagons got made before.  All that happened was that policy changed over time.  That's it.  No one got a wagon built because they were buddies with staff or because they were really nice or because we just don't like some people and we like other people.  Now you know and everyone else does.  We all win!  Yay! 

Also note that your interpretation of those events you refer to with regards to a wagon purchase is off some from what actually occurred.  There was more going on there than just the policy definition that affected your goals (I reviewed it from the request tool and the IDB just to be sure I was familiar with what went on).

At any rate, good luck everyone.  This thread is done, we've established what the policy is, and we've stated what's going on.  Now go out there and kick some butt.