Making Wagons

[Kebron]

So if Merchants can build wagons, and there are supposedly all these highly payed independent merchant types, then how come you don't see independent merchant wagons? *boggle*
Is it the inability to get NPC guards to protect them? Cus seems like that could be solved with having a smaller wagon you could stable like a regular mount..

[Kismetic]

Skill Wagon Making                                                       (Skill)

   This much prized skill allows the crafter to construct simple wagons
from the appropriate raw materials.  This is a laborious process, usually
requiring constructing the pieces from which the wagon will be assembled.

Please note: this skill is not fully implemented yet.

[Delirium]

race: dwarf
focus: build the perfect wagon

I imagine that if you worked long and hard enough, and had the cash on hand, you would be able to mastercraft a (smallish) wagon, and purchase the NPC slaves to guard it. Likely you would want to buy at least two so that you could 'rotate' them on guard duty (i.e. maybe not codedly, but it'd add to the realism).

[Riya OniSenshi]

Advance Search the Ask the Staff board for the word "wagon" (no quotes) and you'll see the many reasons why from a bunch of different staff over the past decade.

[Jeshin]

I know personally of only 1 PC who MCed a wagon and it was for an established clan. Something you need to be aware of however is that wagons have to be individually built by staff, npcs need to be written, and virtual considerations also have to be made.

Example:

Where would you keep the supplies to build a wagon? Individual apartments are -not- big enough.

Where are you going to park this wagon? I'm not sure, but I'm almost positive that wagon yards virtually cost money to use, just like stables. I imagine clans with a wagon are paying the powers that be for the right to park.

Where did you have the wagon constructed? One of the GMHs actually specializes in constructing wagons, how did your PC construct one if not using them? Where did they secure the space and guards to protect it during construction as well as the man power?

These are just something that make non-clanned PCs owning a wagon a serious hurtle. Before you start building the components and such, you'll likely want to have a dialogue with the staff via character reports or the request tool to make sure that you understand the requirements and that they have the time to devote to creating the wagon.

[brytta.leofa]

I'm guessing that wagonmaking, incomplete as it may be, is a branched, high-level, merchant-only skill.  Given that...

It would be glorious to have a couple of stock wagon recipes that could be used without staff intervention.  Nothing too fancy: a one-room, enterable wagon.  And maybe an open cart, built on the skimmer mechanics.

[Rhyden]

I'm guessing that wagonmaking, incomplete as it may be, is a branched, high-level, merchant-only skill.  Given that...

It would be glorious to have a couple of stock wagon recipes that could be used without staff intervention.  Nothing too fancy: a one-room, enterable wagon.  And maybe an open cart, built on the skimmer mechanics.

Oh my god yes. Please.

This kind of addition would bring ArmageddonMUD to a whole. Notha. Level.

[Patuk]

I'm guessing that wagonmaking, incomplete as it may be, is a branched, high-level, merchant-only skill.  Given that...

It would be glorious to have a couple of stock wagon recipes that could be used without staff intervention.  Nothing too fancy: a one-room, enterable wagon.  And maybe an open cart, built on the skimmer mechanics.

It's not hard at all to branch it, in fact.

That said.. Yes. Being able to craft even a simple wagon, something to allow to be drawed by a single inix, would be amazing.

[drunkendwarf]

race: dwarf
focus: build the perfect wagon

I imagine that if you worked long and hard enough, and had the cash on hand, you would be able to mastercraft a (smallish) wagon, and purchase the NPC slaves to guard it. Likely you would want to buy at least two so that you could 'rotate' them on guard duty (i.e. maybe not codedly, but it'd add to the realism).

No, you can't. I had a dwarf with a focus of building a wagon and was told "No" by staff.

[Kebron]

I'd really like to hear from a player who has successfully constructed a wagon and what they had to do without going into IC detail, and also how difficult this really was.

[drunkendwarf]

I'd really like to hear from a player who has successfully constructed a wagon and what they had to do without going into IC detail, and also how difficult this really was.

I'd love to hear it too. Because we had the ability, we had a place to build the wagon, we had the coin and we had the materials. And I was told, outright, that we would not be allowed to build a wagon.

[Maso]

I'd really like to hear from a player who has successfully constructed a wagon and what they had to do without going into IC detail, and also how difficult this really was.

I'd love to hear it too. Because we had the ability, we had a place to build the wagon, we had the coin and we had the materials. And I was told, outright, that we would not be allowed to build a wagon.

What was the reason?

[Bast]

I think the issue is you can't be attacked without staff doing it and a couple of other things. At least this was one of the reason I was given a few years ago when a group I was in had saved up over 100k for one.  would be bad ass though. Even if just being able to build small carts and such.

[Dresan]

Yeah my understanding is that there are a lot of potential bugs associated with wagons too.

The good news is that for a while the idea was thrown around of making smaller wagons that people could attach to an Inix or beetle. Not sure what happened to that idea, but it seemed really neat for a while there.

[Seeker]

I'd really like to hear from a player who has successfully constructed a wagon and what they had to do without going into IC detail, and also how difficult this really was.

I am that player.  I played a Merchant PC who was able to complete a wagon.  It was huge project.  I will give the steps of how I made it possible for my PC:

1)  The PC maneuvered himself into a Great Merchant House that specialized in wagons.  This was important because they had the fantastic resources and equipment in place.  Picture a navy shipyard.  My PC was able to utilize the multitude of ladders, berth space, support infrastructure to hold the developing frame and the incredibly expensive and complex array of tools needed.  
2)  The PC in question was able to develop the skills to oversee the project, but also able to politically move up the power structure of the House.  This was important because it gave him access to the incredible manpower, both PC and vNPC/NPC needed as well as the overwhelming resources needed for the project.  By this time he was over 120 days played, and essentially ran the entire wagon division of this Great Merchant House.  He was big wig on a mission.
3)  I made it fun for the clan.  I had dozens of PC involved in the process, gathering materials, RPing work on the scaffolds, getting drunk on the skeleton of the frame.

That was my trick.  Get the skill, get the resources, get the manpower, get the Powers That Be to profit and so support it, and make it benefit to as many players as possible.


Seeker

[drunkendwarf]

My entire interaction with staff on the matter, started 12/26/2008:

It looks as though we're turning our attention toward obtaining a wagon. We have a crafter in the group (the character is <PC Merchant>) who claims he might be able to figure out how to do such, given enough wood and time to practice. One can only assume he's got the wagonmaking skill, unless he's pulling our legs. I'm wondering what may be required for our group to eventually arrive at a fully functional wagon.
We have at the moment:
1) A space for him to build the wagon. <PC Noble>, of House <Noble House>, has offered up their estate grounds for <PC Merchant> to begin construction of the wagon. Their price is a second wagon...but that's another email.
2) Around 40k in coins saved up between the characters involved. More can be obtained if needed, although I imagine if we're building it ourselves the cost of such should be minimal, if we supply the raw materials ourselves.
3) Access to tons of wood, which we will begin bringing in by the shitload.

What else might be required, what sort of timeline are we looking at, and what (if any) immortal assistance might we need in this endeavor?

Thank you very much!

Constructing a wagon is a task that would ICly require several master craftspeople and a lot of resources.  That is why wagons are generally only made by merchant houses.

While I am sure that this PC has the wagon_making skill, I would be highly surprised if they were able to make anything other than a wheel or other simple parts.  It's a very complex task.

-Vanth

I have to say after deciding to take on a monumental task such as this, which certainly has leadership potential, potential long lasting affects to the game, and giving some unclanned people a chance to take part in something fun and exciting, receiving a response such as this is rather disheartening. No suggestions, no list of what else we may need, basically just a 'you probably can't do it'. I realize this task is going to be difficult to achieve, but I also certainly hope the staff wouldn't deem it impossible.

Would it really require several master craftspeople, or just one acting as 'foreman' and a crew of people to help with the building? I don't understand why more than one person with master knowhow is required. I understand this is a complex task, but given enough time and materials to screw up while learning, this level of skill should be attainable by your average merchant, right? We have wagons in the wagonyard readily accessible for study, as far as axles, wheels, etc go. And I would think the most complex parts of any wagon would be the parts you can study from the outside, although we can get access to study a wagon in-depth, inside and out up close and personal. Both parked and moving.

This has become my dwarf's focus now, and I've hit a wall as to how to go about this without a bit of guidance or assistance from the immortals. Either my dwarf is going to die, or he's going to get a wagon. I've asked Kadius and Kurac both IC, and both say they aren't building wagons for sale. I'm not sure why they have stopped selling wagons, as no explanation has been given. I've asked the Tan Muark if they could build one for us, and am currently awaiting a response. My character doesn't care how he gets one, just that is happens. We do have a decent amount of coin saved up, if buying one were to become an option. Although it is starting to look like my only course of action would be to have it built independently and personally it sounds more exciting to me to rally a group of people together and watch it slowly come to life, than to fork over 80k (or whatever it'll cost) in coin and have it roll up.

Can a character achieve the level of wagon making necessary to do this by working on wheels, etc and sending in logs of studying already built wagons? Obviously immortal assistance is going to be required at some point to make this a reality. As opposed to the answer supplied by Vanth, can someone please provide suggestions/assistance to make this a reality? What else might we need to do to get this crafter to the level of being able to assemble a fully working wagon, aside from have him build wheels, axles and send in logs of studying the bits and pieces of wagons already made?  Can my dwarf, with enough study and work, get the wagon making skill added, and bring it to the level that he could instruct a crew of workers and get one built? If multiple master crafters are required, can a small group of people get the skill added and brought up to the required level, given enough instruction from the PC that already has the skill, and studying wagons?

As stated before in my first email, we have:
1) A space to keep the wagon while it is being built.
2) 40k+ in coins saved up, for whatever costs there might need to be during construction. Or to just buy the wagon.
3) Ready access to plenty of wood.
4) A merchant who can now build hubs and wheels for wagons.

What other steps do we need to take to get this project moving forward more other than the merchant building a pile of wagon wheels? Please help me here.

Thanks much.

Current policy states that we are not creating unique objects for characters, unless that character is a master crafter of the craft in question.

It is not currently codedly possible to become a master crafter in wagonmaking.

I agree with you that this plot has a lot of potential for roleplay and fun.  However, if we created wagons for every player who wanted to have roleplay and fun, every character in game would have a wagon.  That would not be in keeping with the setting of the game, which is a harsh desert world where everyone has to scrap by for existence, not a cushy desert world where everyone has 40k and a phat wagon to cruise in.

To be completely clear here, we will not be creating any new wagons.  If you would like access to a wagon, you will need to join a merchant house or other organization that already owns one.

Regards,
Vanth

[drunkendwarf]

I'd really like to hear from a player who has successfully constructed a wagon and what they had to do without going into IC detail, and also how difficult this really was.

I am that player.  I played a Merchant PC who was able to complete a wagon.  It was huge project.  I will give the steps of how I made it possible for my PC:

1)  The PC maneuvered himself into a Great Merchant House that specialized in wagons.  This was important because they had the fantastic resources and equipment in place.  Picture a navy shipyard.  My PC was able to utilize the multitude of ladders, berth space, support infrastructure to hold the developing frame and the incredibly expensive and complex array of tools needed.  
2)  The PC in question was able to develop the skills to oversee the project, but also able to politically move up the power structure of the House.  This was important because it gave him access to the incredible manpower, both PC and vNPC/NPC needed as well as the overwhelming resources needed for the project.  By this time he was over 120 days played, and essentially ran the entire wagon division of this Great Merchant House.  He was big wig on a mission.
3)  I made it fun for the clan.  I had dozens of PC involved in the process, gathering materials, RPing work on the scaffolds, getting drunk on the skeleton of the frame.

That was my trick.  Get the skill, get the resources, get the manpower, get the Powers That Be to profit and so support it, and make it benefit to as many players as possible.


Seeker

Wow. I feel all warm and fuzzy inside now after being completely slapped down in my attempt.

[Barsook]

He was just lucky then. 

[Kebron]

I think the difference would hinge on the fact that he was 1) A very old character when it happened so he put IC years into doing this and 2) A member of a merchant house specializing in the construction of wagons.
So not impossible, just incredibly difficult and time consuming... Sort of like trying to put together an H3 out of pieces of scrap in a random junkyard by yourself... Sure you can do it, but you'll be 50 by the time its complete.

[drunkendwarf]

I think the difference would hinge on the fact that he was 1) A very old character when it happened so he put IC years into doing this and 2) A member of a merchant house specializing in the construction of wagons.
So not impossible, just incredibly difficult and time consuming... Sort of like trying to put together an H3 out of pieces of scrap in a random junkyard by yourself... Sure you can do it, but you'll be 50 by the time its complete.

Had I been told it was even possible, my character would have put whatever amount of IC time required into making it happen. As would the PC merchant and the others involved. But we were told, flat out, it wasn't going to happen no matter what. We also had access to a space to do this. Granted, we did not have existing know how on building wagons readily available, but we did have the Tan Muark say we were more than welcome to study every inch of their wagon, both in motion and parked, as much as we wished. One would think, over time, we could have developed the know how. And we weren't trying to make some massive wagon. Just a small thing.
I think the main difference is we were a group of independents, and Seeker was with a House. In my fairly long experience on this mud, that pretty well makes the difference for a lot of things.

[Eurynomos]

That is correct.

There is a gigantic stable of vNPC craftsmen and master wagon repairmen and luthiers in the Greater Merchant Houses. As they have huge Argosies to maintain. This plethora of vNPC support represents Staff Support as well.

Independent crews have Staff of their own (Unclanned) but they aren't going to provide resources for you out of thin air. GMH's also don't provide things out of thin air for PC's in their clans. They have to work for it, too.

The life of an Indy crew is one of the toughest in ArmageddonMUD, but I have seen both as a player (and in my brief time as Staff) some of these crews succeed in doing some of the goals deemed impossible or highly improbable by others. They survived, put in the man hours gathering resources/political allies, likely had a great rapport with Staff (and were not hostile or confrontational), and got what they wanted at the end of the day.

[jstorrie]

IIRC, the PCs in the Tuluki militia unit put a battle-wagon together at one point. It was the pet project of a PC Jihaen and it took at least an RL year. I'm not sure if the crafting was done by a PC mastercrafter or if it was done by NPCs. It did eventually get done, but boy were those materials lying around for a looooong time...

The long-and-short of it is that this sort of undertaking requires a ton of busy-work from one or more staff members and you're basically going to have to make an exceptional case in order to get people to do it. That sounds shitty, but that's where we are. The policy is 'no' and if you want to be the exception your case must be exceptional.

[Adhira]

The tuluki wagon was put together by the GMH that specializes in constructing it.  The materials collected were given to that GMH.   
At one point we did have a project in the works to make the wagon making skill usable by pcs, to create cart type wagons, it was never completed.  We have never had any intention to make argosies etc buildable by PCs due to their sheer complexity.   

[drunkendwarf]

That is correct.

There is a gigantic stable of vNPC craftsmen and master wagon repairmen and luthiers in the Greater Merchant Houses. As they have huge Argosies to maintain. This plethora of vNPC support represents Staff Support as well.

Independent crews have Staff of their own (Unclanned) but they aren't going to provide resources for you out of thin air. GMH's also don't provide things out of thin air for PC's in their clans. They have to work for it, too.

The life of an Indy crew is one of the toughest in ArmageddonMUD, but I have seen both as a player (and in my brief time as Staff) some of these crews succeed in doing some of the goals deemed impossible or highly improbable by others. They survived, put in the man hours gathering resources/political allies, likely had a great rapport with Staff (and were not hostile or confrontational), and got what they wanted at the end of the day.

I didn't think I was hostile or confrontational at all in my communication with Vanth. I tried to be helpful and offer up suggestions, and ask intelligent questions that may help to make it happen. And it's hard to "achieve the impossible" when it's staff that's telling you impossible. And none of what you've stated was a reason given to me at the time.
My reason was:

Current policy states that we are not creating unique objects for characters, unless that character is a master crafter of the craft in question.
It is not currently codedly possible to become a master crafter in wagonmaking.

Apparently that needed to read:

Current policy states that we are not creating unique objects for (for independent) characters, unless that character is a master crafter of the craft in question.
It is not currently codedly possible (for independents) to become a master crafter in wagonmaking.

I'm miffed, especially after hearing other PC's have done it. Even getting a "Yeah, this might be possible, but it's going to be really hard without the support of a House" would have been better than the flat out brick wall I was slammed against. Because really..would making a small wagon be flat out impossible under the circumstances I outlined in my request? No. Exceedingly time consuming, sure. Exhaustively hard, yup. Impossible? I don't think it should have been.

[Adhira]

Sorry you had a bad experience.

Indeed, right now it is impossible for anyone that is not a member of a GMH, which has special tools, facilities, secret knowledge etc to turn the mass of mekillot bones, bahamet shells, wood and other resources used to create wagons... to create wagons.   The path seeker outlined is still possible, as noted it took him a lot of time, effort and work icly and oocly.

[Bacon]

120 days of play seems like a ridiculously stupid amount of time to have to spend playing with a single character to get something like that done, imo.

[Bast]

It would be nice if we could make simple carts like:


or..



A simple wagon with no cover or one 'room' shouldn't be impossible to build. That said it would obvious depend on how much a pain in the ass it would be for staff to code them.

[Morgenes]

That is what Adhira said we were working on.  It got held up trying to resurrect the hitching of mounts to wagons, which we wanted to be prerequisite for having one of these. This is still in the list to get back to. 

[Bast]

I mean we are are not talking rocket science here...The 'wheel' has been around since 4000 BC that we -know- of. Simple wagons and carts where made by a number of cultures well before the bronze Age which is what 3600 B.C. on to around 600 B.C?

[BadSkeelz]

It sounds like there's a big CODE bottleneck concerning Wagons, unrelated to how simple or complex you think they would be for PCs to actually craft.

[Bast]

That is what Adhira said we were working on.  It got held up trying to resurrect the hitching of mounts to wagons, which we wanted to be prerequisite for having one of these. This is still in the list to get back to. 

Awesome! Sorry posted all that before I took a noticed what had been said. This is what I get for cooking dinner and trying to type at the same time.

[Kebron]

Does the same value's apply for skimmers? (the extensive need for VNPC master craftsmen, the need for a large "framework" or berth to construct them in, the sheer number of slaves going into the construction)

Or is it a situation where skimmers are somewhat easier to produce simply because they aren't multi-roomd monstrosities with full on armor.

You would think that a ship would be harder to create, but honestly skimmers don't have alot appearance wise in common with a conventional ship, and seeing as you sit on them instead of entering them would it be more feasable to create those?

[HavokBlue]

I wish we didn't have a bunch of unrealistic nonsense barriers in place that prevented PCs from changing the world or creating due to workload/staffing issues. I understand that there are concerns on the staff side of things like time/effort to code shit and whatnot but... it's really disheartening to see people either flat out told NOPE or that they need to spend hundreds and hundreds of hours working towards something they think is fun in a game.

Because let's be honest. Unless the intelligence of your average PC crafter = pants-on-head-retarded, he can probably spend some time looking over a wagon and draw the necessary conclusions in regards to how wheels and axles work, and that wheel + axles + somewhere to sit + something to pull it = mobile wagon! In a world where everything is made of wood and bone and chitin, I don't think it would be exceptionally hard for someone to bust out some wheels, poles, and a box, and it really seems like the difficulty of constructing shit like this is being blown way out of proportion.

edit: If wagons are truly as difficult to create ICly as staff make them out to be, it's a miracle that any form of developed civilization exists.

[kayza]

If i was a merchant house id make it impossible for an independant to build a wagon.

And your char was 120+ days0 played?
How is your situation the same at all.

[Bast]

Honestly the things you could with wagons opens up all sorts of cool options.
1) city states could start charging fees to park your wagon in there wagon yards where they -should- be harder to steal. Could base the fee's off the size of the wagon.
2) Stop a lot of complaining about why people can't build there own camps as well as the ever frequent (why are there not more/any apartments in Ceynr, Red Storm, Luir's. You could save up buy a wagon and live out of it in those places for whatever they want to charge you in 'rent' to park your wagon in their yards. Or take your wagon to an area in the middle of no where and risk having your ride jacked while your offline.
3) Raiding a wagon in route between cities would be a much tastier target than that guy on his inix across the desert. This means more raiders (possibly) but also more contracts for groups like the Byn for escorts.

Thats just off the top of my head. This is something I have wanted to see in Arm FOREVER. Sorry it gets me all excited.

[Erythil]

Working in the GMH that makes wagons, it was my understanding that wagons are not made ever, and that this was done to preserve game balance, due to wagons effectively being invincible.

But maybe that's changed.

[Dakota]

I was in a wagon that was destroyed once. Was pretty awesome.

[drunkendwarf]

If i was a merchant house id make it impossible for an independant to build a wagon.

All the more reason to allow independents to build wagons. Were I an independent building a wagon, I would welcome your attempt to thwart me. *Fun would be had by all.

*Fun may result in blood and death

[Kismetic]

Because let's be honest. Unless the intelligence of your average PC crafter = pants-on-head-retarded, he can probably spend some time looking over a wagon and draw the necessary conclusions in regards to how wheels and axles work, and that wheel + axles + somewhere to sit + something to pull it = mobile wagon!

I bet it would be hard to make a spoked wheel out of wood.

It (edit:  the hitch mounts to small wagons/cart thing) would be a good addition to the game, though.  More goods could travel.  More merchants to raid.

Not sure how you'd handle security when you're away from it without buying random guard #531 from the guard store.

[Riya OniSenshi]

I bet it would be hard to make a spoked wheel out of wood.

Sham-wow... Someone needs to scroll up and look at the pictures Bast posted...

[Delirium]

I once paid 80k in-game for an entirely virtual wagon... but that was for a clan. I guess it wouldn't do indies much good.

As I understand it, it's a pain in the ass to create actual wagon objects unless re-purposing another already-existing wagon object.

So uh... steal, and/or break, someone else's wagon, and rebuild it? Better, faster, stronger?

p.s. It was a lot of fun trying to drag all that money from the IC hidey-hole to the bank. It took 8 bags and 2 inix...

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Besides the single mount carts projected for inclusion in the game at some point, I would like to see handcarts craftable as well, using the wagon skill. There are several NPCs in game with handcarts. I couldn't see how these would be too hard to create from staff side, actually. The one trick would be to make the object, which by virtue of being too heavy would be included in room descriptions, keep the stamina usage toned down. The item type would be container, and of course you'd be able to look into it and take form it and put into it.

Code Select Expand

The dark man stands here, dragging a battered handcart.

[Gunnerblaster]

You can buy the following:
A erdlu for 300 coins.
A war beetle for 450 coins.
An inix for 600 coins.
A black inix for 800 coins.
A small, single-room wagon drawn by chalton for 1600 coins.
A medium, single-room wagon drawn by inix for 3500 coins. [Different tiring rates - Wagons treated as mounts]

Make the cheap wagons destructible, like tents. Make them have stamina, like mounts. Make the cheap wagons -like- mounted tents (if that makes sense).

>mount wagon
You jump into a wagon's piloting seat and raise the boarding ramp.

While in this 'mode', a wagon cannot be entered - And only moved. Can be attacked and destroyed.

>rest wagon
You jump down from a wagon's piloting seat and lower the boarding ramp.

While in this 'mode', a wagon can be entered - But not moved. Can be attacked and destroyed. If destroyed, everything falls out of the wagon and onto the ground - Like when you >junk a container.

Like a tent, the wagons transition from one type of item to another.

With tents, they transition from their rolled-up items to a room.

With wagons, they transition from a mount to a room.

Is this even plausible or am I just fucking insane?

Edited to add after-thoughts:
Eh. A problem I see already is how to 'save' items in the wagon once it transitions from a mount-like object to a building room and vice-verse. Maybe make it so that you have to take items out of a wagon when it is in it's mobile form - But you can 'pack' items onto it. Wagon won't let you go into mobile mode if there are items detected within and the wagon won't let you go into stationary mode if it detects items 'packed' onto it?

This way, it requires a bit of effort to own a wagon. Unpack wagon, rest wagon, enter wagon, drop items and set up shop. Gotta go? You have to drag everything out of the wagon first, switch the wagon into mobile mode (by mounting it and dismounting without resting it), pack the items (if they are packable containers) onto the wagon (which should have a large capacity for carrying items).

Commands for wagons are same for mounts, just with varying effects:
>Mount Wagon = Wagon switches to 'mobile' mode and is no longer an enterable room.

>Dismount Wagon = Wagon remains in 'mobile' mode and is still unenterable.

>Rest Wagon = Wagon switches to 'stationary' mode and becomes enterable room.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

To make the building less tiring, the best short description for a mount/wagon is "a mount drawing a wagon". This is so that every current NPC action fits with the wording.

A mount drawing a wagon lies down to rest.

You hop up onto a ... oh, well, that'd have to be reworded.

A mount drawing a wagon walks north.

A mount drawing a wagon pinches you very hard on the head.

You pack a large blue bag on a mount d ... reworded.

That said, aside from the rewording, mount NPCs written as wagons honestly are the swiftest way to have these in game, and furthermore, the most realistic in terms of real safety. The one drawback is the inability to have multiple riders. Finally, the wording could be swiftly changed simply by adding a flag_wagon to the NPC, and adding sections in the code for mounting messages to check for that flag.

A hulking, crimson-scaled ratlon drawing a dark baobab-wood chariot stands here, looking tired.

[HavokBlue]

Because let's be honest. Unless the intelligence of your average PC crafter = pants-on-head-retarded, he can probably spend some time looking over a wagon and draw the necessary conclusions in regards to how wheels and axles work, and that wheel + axles + somewhere to sit + something to pull it = mobile wagon!

I bet it would be hard to make a spoked wheel out of wood.

It (edit:  the hitch mounts to small wagons/cart thing) would be a good addition to the game, though.  More goods could travel.  More merchants to raid.

Not sure how you'd handle security when you're away from it without buying random guard #531 from the guard store.

Spoked wheels made of wood are relatively easy to make, like Bast showed. You could always opt for non-spoked wheels as well.

[Kankfly]

Know what?

I was just thinking of what Bast said, a small craftable cart that cannot be entered by NPCs or PCs. In fact, it can't be entered at all. It will just be a place where you can put things in (like a container), is hitched to a single mount (depending on how big the cart is), and is mobile.

So you'll be able to hitch cart to inix/erdlu/beetle/ox, hitch mount, ride mount etc. And you have a bigger space where you can put things in.

For independent traders or grebbers or even GMH employees out to collect resources.

Of course, making it will have to cost time and sids, but it will be noticeably take less time (since it'll just be a simple cart), and cost less.

Just an idea.

[BleakOne]

Could you have wagons simply coded as mounts which cannot be ridden upon? Just hitch them to yourself for a handcart, or hitch them to yourself and ride a living (non-hitched) mount for a animal-drawn cart? They'd have a huge strength level to hold stuff, no combat ability, and no stamina needs.

Probably difficult to code the stamina stuff, but otherwise it would make use of existing code.

[HavokBlue]

Could you have wagons simply coded as mounts which cannot be ridden upon? Just hitch them to yourself for a handcart, or hitch them to yourself and ride a living (non-hitched) mount for a animal-drawn cart? They'd have a huge strength level to hold stuff, no combat ability, and no stamina needs.

Probably difficult to code the stamina stuff, but otherwise it would make use of existing code.

The problem with that is:

kill cart

A painted, baobab handcart dodges out of the way.
A painted, baobab handcart dodges out of the way.
You bludgeon a cart on the axle, doing tremendous damage!
A painted, baobab handcart reels from the blow!

[FantasyWriter]

Could you have wagons simply coded as mounts which cannot be ridden upon? Just hitch them to yourself for a handcart, or hitch them to yourself and ride a living (non-hitched) mount for a animal-drawn cart? They'd have a huge strength level to hold stuff, no combat ability, and no stamina needs.

Probably difficult to code the stamina stuff, but otherwise it would make use of existing code.

The problem with that is:

kill cart

A painted, baobab handcart dodges out of the way.
A painted, baobab handcart dodges out of the way.
You bludgeon a cart on the axle, doing tremendous damage!
A painted, baobab handcart reels from the blow!

The handcartNPC's agility would be super low, probably.

Edit: Nope, then it couldn't hold many items, or so I assume.

[MeTekillot]

Make them like tents that can be broken. Make them like mounts that you can pack things on them.

[Kankfly]

I imagine it'll be more of an item that can be hooked on a mount (hitch cart, hook cart on mount) or person (hitch cart). You can open or close it, even lock it, or it can just be an open container with no lids, depending on the complexity of the cart. I guess you can mount the steed once the cart is hooked on. That way, you don't need to break it like a tent, and you won't need to "kill cart".

[Lizzie]

There already is such a thing - or was. Fale had a carriage, pulled by erdlus I think. I think I remember Asandril used to ride it around on occasion. Or maybe it was her cousin..

[brytta.leofa]

There already is such a thing - or was. Fale had a carriage, pulled by erdlus I think. I think I remember Asandril used to ride it around on occasion. Or maybe it was her cousin..

It's a normal wagon. Well, not a normal wagon. But coded as a wagon.

Borsail had a chariot during the Copper War, but IIRC it was just a one-room wagon.  (Mal broke it.)

[Shepard]

There is an easy work around to this...


west (rumbling along within a wagon)

drop log

arrange log ~ is part of a wagon that is here.

emote grins as they ride along in their wagon!

get log

west (rumbling along within a wagon)

drop log

arrange log ~ is part of a wagon that is here.

[Schrodingers Cat]

...wagons effectively being invincible.

Except for every wagon's greatest enemy, the Shield Wall.  (and any other pitfall)

[HavokBlue]

There is an easy work around to this...


west (rumbling along within a wagon)

drop log

arrange log ~ is part of a wagon that is here.

emote grins as they ride along in their wagon!

get log

west (rumbling along within a wagon)

drop log

arrange log ~ is part of a wagon that is here.

10/10, had to check to see who posted it.

[Kankfly]

I've just had a thought. Maybe Imms don't want to see too many of these things rumbling around.

>look south
>You see a hundred small, wooden carts in the wagon yard.

[zanthalandreams]

>rent cart
>The fat kid ties a rope through the spokes and agrees to watch your bike.   He says, "Here is your ticket."  

>offer ticket
>You pay the fat kid sitting on your bike.  He hops down and says, "Thanks, sucka" and pulls the rope out of the spokes.  

[Rhyden]

From a completely neutral and new player's standpoint, I can see how this can be very confusing and misleading. I would prefer if staff made yes or no decisions for these coded abilities.

For example, if players can not build wagons, take skill_wagonbuilding out of the game.
If players can not brew their own alcohol, take brew alcohol out of the game. (Yes, I know alcohol can be brewed in some clans, but it doesn't use the brew command)
If players can not use flash powder, take the trap skill completely out of the game.

I don't see the point in offering empty promises, which will likely never be implemented. Just take them out to avoid further confusion from the players.

[Eurynomos]

They aren't empty promises. Some of these things (coding) take time, and we work on them as time allows. If we removed from the game everything that was 'in progress', there would be no progress. For all the things being discussed that aren't implemented, there is a gigantic laundry list of player ideas that have been implemented over the years. These things require patience and time.

[BadSkeelz]

What about just removing the helpfiles on them? Not mentioning something until it's supported makes more sense to me then having a bunch of help files that seem to be discouraging people.

[timb]

Now there would be a good IC job, thos little cart taxi things people run down the street holding in India. Don't even need a mount, just some breed who needs the coin.

[Rhyden]

There is a skill wagon_making in game but you can not make wagons.

That isn't to say you guys aren't working on skill wagon_making. You simply would avoid a lot of confusion (especially from new players) by cutting it out until it's ready to be implemented.

You know?

What about just removing the helpfiles on them? Not mentioning something until it's supported makes more sense to me then having a bunch of help files that seem to be discouraging people.

Yes. Exactly.

[Yam]

Wagon repair with parts made from wagon_making is something that's happened in game.

[Bast]

Now there would be a good IC job, thos little cart taxi things people run down the street holding in India. Don't even need a mount, just some breed who needs the coin.

Rickshaws..heheh oh yes. I would totally have every Aide/Merchant/importantish Pc I ever made after that use them. *clap clap* "take me to the market and make it quick!"

[Maso]

Now there would be a good IC job, thos little cart taxi things people run down the street holding in India. Don't even need a mount, just some breed who needs the coin.

Rickshaws..heheh oh yes. I would totally have every Aide/Merchant/importantish Pc I ever made after that use them. *clap clap* "take me to the market and make it quick!"

That be insanely awesome.

[Bacon]

That would be really cool. Be fun to use them or to play one even. Hang in the tavern until someone requests a ride and run and grab your rickshaw and meet them out front.

[Karieith]

do it virtually.
w (pulling a rickshaw with a passenger)
Fancypants follows you
w;w;w;w;w;w kill fancypants

[Shepard]

do it virtually.
w (pulling a rickshaw with a passenger)
Fancypants follows you
w;w;w;w;w;w kill fancypants

You got the right idea! Virtually anything is possible if you do it virtually!

emote/arrange/walk-emotes are key to doing whatever the hell you want... just try to keep it realistic, the Imms got some upset when I did:

w (flying along with a jet-pack)

[Maso]

do it virtually.
w (pulling a rickshaw with a passenger)
Fancypants follows you
w;w;w;w;w;w kill fancypants

You got the right idea! Virtually anything is possible if you do it virtually!

emote/arrange/walk-emotes are key to doing whatever the hell you want... just try to keep it realistic, the Imms got some upset when I did:

w (flying along with a jet-pack)

Except, the point of using it as a noble or rich person - would be that it got you from A - B quicker...there would be no benefit of doing it virtually. Lets just do everything virtually and make Arm a MUSH. 

[Shepard]

do it virtually.
w (pulling a rickshaw with a passenger)
Fancypants follows you
w;w;w;w;w;w kill fancypants

You got the right idea! Virtually anything is possible if you do it virtually!

emote/arrange/walk-emotes are key to doing whatever the hell you want... just try to keep it realistic, the Imms got some upset when I did:

w (flying along with a jet-pack)

Except, the point of using it as a noble or rich person - would be that it got you from A - B quicker...there would be no benefit of doing it virtually. Lets just do everything virtually and make Arm a MUSH. 

Subdue noble
run
w, w, w, w, w

There is it faster now.

[Marc]

I sorta have a hard on for independent merchants.

I've played this game off and on for over... well, a year or two less than LoD.

A wagon has been the goal of multiples of said merchant/traders.

My very first character, during my very first hour, had a conversation with a "Someone sends" and we talked about the possibilities of owning a chariot.  The answer was an emphatic 'YES' with enough effort.  Then reality set in and I hit that brick wall many are familiar with.

My first independent wagon came easy enough.  I had a character with a lot of sid.  I went to a Merchant House.  I offered to buy a wagon and after a quick email exchange with Sanvean it was approved.  This was early 2000's.  Sadly the character didn't survive very long after that and no wagon was delivered :-(

^^ clearly possible!

Next try came after wagonmaking was introduced.  Sadly my response to making my own wagon was a firm 'NO' and I didn't bother spending In-game time working towards it.  Maybe that was a mistake, but when you are told OOC by Staff that you cannot do what you intend, it really deflates the effort-balloon.

Most recently I tried to have another wagon made/purchase an existing one.  Two different noble houses offered to 'buy' the wagon for me.  Certain merchant houses and certain successful wagon-making merchants were drawn in and convinced (at least from my perspective) to build it.  City-state support was retained to acquire an old wagon hull.  Lots of characters involved over the course of in-game years and staggering (think many 100k+) amounts of sid were spent on bribes, supplies etc.  End result?  No wagons for independents but feel free to join a merchant house.

The sad fact is if Staff likes you the more likely your plots will be noticed/advance.  Shouldn't be so surprising since they are volunteers and why would anyone want to deal with pains-in-the-ass but it does raise questions on what's impossible and what just takes connections/the right administration.

Don't take this as a bitter rant.  Could honestly careless at this point, but it is interesting all the same to read others personal experiences and see where mine align.  It doesn't seem like I am alone in my perceptions

[Nyr]

There is a skill wagon_making in game but you can not make wagons.

That isn't to say you guys aren't working on skill wagon_making. You simply would avoid a lot of confusion (especially from new players) by cutting it out until it's ready to be implemented.

You know?

What about just removing the helpfiles on them? Not mentioning something until it's supported makes more sense to me then having a bunch of help files that seem to be discouraging people.

Yes. Exactly.

Wagon making isn't:

craft log into wagon

If it were, yes, that'd be stupid to have a skill that no one could use and a helpfile for it.

Read the helpfile again, this time focusing on the parts that do not twist your knickers into a bunch.  You can create parts for wagons.  Those parts are useful.  We do not need to remove the skill or the helpfile because the end result is not achievable, especially when we say in the helpfile that the skill is not fully implemented yet.

The sad fact is if Staff likes you the more likely your plots will be noticed/advance.  Shouldn't be so surprising since they are volunteers and why would anyone want to deal with pains-in-the-ass but it does raise questions on what's impossible and what just takes connections/the right administration.

One storyteller and two producers chimed into this thread and explained their/staff position on things.  You don't have to raise questions, you just have to read the thread! 

[Maso]

Most recently I tried to have another wagon made/purchase an existing one.  Two different noble houses offered to 'buy' the wagon for me.  Certain merchant houses and certain successful wagon-making merchants were drawn in and convinced (at least from my perspective) to build it.  City-state support was retained to acquire an old wagon hull.  Lots of characters involved over the course of in-game years and staggering (think many 100k+) amounts of sid were spent on bribes, supplies etc.  End result?  No wagons for independents but feel free to join a merchant house.

That kind of sucks.

[Marc]

One storyteller and two producers chimed into this thread and explained their/staff position on things.  You don't have to raise questions, you just have to read the thread! 

Engrish is not my strongest language.  My point was at one point getting a wagon as an independent was entirely possible because, well, I had Sanvean approve one.  This was after the original 'hitch' code was introduced (I remember watching some poor kuraci try and set his argosy up in Luirs.  Rope and meks and harnesses and in the end, nothing!) so I don't think her decision was limited by an introduction of code.

The 'NO' for wagonmaking I completely understand and was covered by said storyteller/producers.  My point there was that OOC considerations influence IC actions (specifically deflating my personal drive to aim for a self-built wagon since I, along with others, have been told it was impossible).

I feel my final point was spot on:  The sad fact is if Staff likes you the more likely your plots will be noticed/advance.  Shouldn't be so surprising since they are volunteers and why would anyone want to deal with pains-in-the-ass but it does raise questions on what's impossible and what just takes connections/the right administration.

This is even more pronounced when you look at particulars of individual deals:  One recent (last three years) wagon completed was made for an independent group that happened to die out before they got it.  Other independents trying to purchase it after that were turned away.  I'm sure there are many considerations that I do not see player side but perception dictates belief and so much is hidden from players that misunderstandings, feelings of favoritism and general disappointment is bound to happen.

Maybe not a concern for staff, but I'm sure ALL players have experienced the above on some level or another.  The fact that staff changes their position on things without very public announcements only exasperates things.

[Nyr]

Sorry you had a bad experience.

Indeed, right now it is impossible for anyone that is not a member of a GMH, which has special tools, facilities, secret knowledge etc to turn the mass of mekillot bones, bahamet shells, wood and other resources used to create wagons... to create wagons.   The path seeker outlined is still possible, as noted it took him a lot of time, effort and work icly and oocly.

[Marc]

To be completely clear here, we will not be creating any new wagons.  If you would like access to a wagon, you will need to join a merchant house or other organization that already owns one.

Regards,
Vanth

what's impossible and what just takes connections/the right administration.

Sorry you had a bad experience.

Indeed, right now it is impossible for anyone that is not a member of a GMH, which has special tools, facilities, secret knowledge etc to turn the mass of mekillot bones, bahamet shells, wood and other resources used to create wagons... to create wagons.   The path seeker outlined is still possible, as noted it took him a lot of time, effort and work icly and oocly.

Sorry Nyr.  Were this an election, we'd be waving flip-flops in the air.  Staff changes its stance over time.  While this is acceptable, the fact it happens behind closed doors and the only time it comes out is when people bitch on the GDB leads to people feeling miffed and only reinforces the perceived culture of favoritism.  I doubt you care, but you caring does not change the situation.

As for handcarts... someone had one.  RP'd a virtual one and was given one later in his characters life.  Pretty sure it served no purpose beyond RP prop but it did exist.  There are also multiple chariot type items that are classified 'mount'.  It might not be perfect, but a lack of carts has always been a huge hole in Armageddon.  They are referenced constantly in room descriptions and there is at least one "wreck" out in the wastes.

ehh... tangents now.  Best if we keep wagons as they are:  in the hands of those who have the foresight to special app or the time to invest a 100d into a character.  Invulnerable to all but stupidity or staff intervention.

(or we could just remove all wagon doors, introduce a few "mount" carts and be happy with the bandaid until the hitch code is perfected)

[kayza]

Independent merchant are pretty easy mode.  You have unlimited sid practically so saying you spent thousands of sid on it means squat.
When you join a clan you pretty much sacrifice this power to a degree.  There should be benefits for doing it, otherwise beyond it making good RP sense why join one?

[Adhira]

It's possible one day we will flip flop and decide that we will make handcarts.  It's also possible we'll get the code worked out to allow master crafters to make the flat bed wagons that we'd like to see them able to make, and that staff had already put considerable time in to making it happen.

Right now as far as wagons and carts, tuktuks, moving pavilions etc the only way for them to get in game is for staff to build them.  Right now we are primarily NOT building these.  We have other things to do.  If handcarts in game are a necessity for you then, I'm sorry, you won't be getting those in this game, right now, possibly ever.

[Nyr]

I don't think you're getting the point made, Marc.

Adhira is a Producer. 
Adhira's point is clear:  this is the position we have now.
It is the across-the-board position. 
If it changes we'll let you know. 
We're sorry you had a bad experience.  We're sorry it was different before and did not seem/was not actually consistent.  However, it is the way it is now.
Morgenes is also a Producer.
Morgenes' point is clear:

That is what Adhira said we were working on.  It got held up trying to resurrect the hitching of mounts to wagons, which we wanted to be prerequisite for having one of these. This is still in the list to get back to. 

We might change our requirements or change our approach to this.
We also may get the code worked out.  We've (collectively) put a lot of work into this already.
This is not a current priority.  It is on the list of things to do.
We're sorry that your interest in this is higher than our priority of implementation.  Hopefully one day the two will have a happy ending together!

ehh... tangents now.  Best if we keep wagons as they are: in the hands of those who have the foresight to special app or the time to invest a 100d into a character.

No, this is how wagons are (bolded for emphasis):

Indeed, right now it is impossible for anyone that is not a member of a GMH, which has special tools, facilities, secret knowledge etc to turn the mass of mekillot bones, bahamet shells, wood and other resources used to create wagons... to create wagons.   

Special apps actually have nothing to do with it.  Yes, time and effort have something to do with it (and yes, it may be a lifelong pursuit of a PC to create a wagon on the scale of the wagons you see codedly in game).  Okay, you want smaller, player-created ones that are codedly craftable.  We get that.  See above on staff priority vs. player interest.  These two things are frequently at odds.

[Marc]

Independent merchant are pretty easy mode.  You have unlimited sid practically so saying you spent thousands of sid on it means squat.
When you join a clan you pretty much sacrifice this power to a degree.  There should be benefits for doing it, otherwise beyond it making good RP sense why join one?

Sid on any character is easy.  There are so many avenues to generate insane amounts of sid on any character.  Being independent does help with certain avenues, but hardly all.

If you're saying that being independent makes things easier, I think you fail to grasp the political landscape that is Armageddon.  Sid doesn't mean squat, you're right.  Power is everything, but the powerful need sid... I think you can connect the dots.

It's possible one day we will flip flop and decide that we will make handcarts.  It's also possible we'll get the code worked out to allow master crafters to make the flat bed wagons that we'd like to see them able to make, and that staff had already put considerable time in to making it happen.

Right now as far as wagons and carts, tuktuks, moving pavilions etc the only way for them to get in game is for staff to build them.  Right now we are primarily NOT building these.  We have other things to do.  If handcarts in game are a necessity for you then, I'm sorry, you won't be getting those in this game, right now, possibly ever.

That's fine.  It's in black & white and policy is policy.  My -point- is this was not clear before this thread as different folks have had different responses from different staff.  If you don't think this is true, that is fine, but I feel that between my experiences with Sanvean, Drunkendwarf's with Vanth, and Seeker's with (housestaff) show that there is no firm line and each case is determined individually.  Hence:

The sad fact is if Staff likes you the more likely your plots will be noticed/advance.  Shouldn't be so surprising since they are volunteers and why would anyone want to deal with pains-in-the-ass but it does raise questions on what's impossible and what just takes connections/the right administration.

Nyr:  I am fine with this.  I also don't personally care about wagons being crafted/created at this point in my life.  It would be nice if things were more flushed out etc, but it's a free game run by volunteers.  I'm not going to stress about what is in game and what isn't.

My issue is favoritism, cronyism etc and wagon making puts that in clear relief.  Some get wagons made.  Some don't.  (this is from a 15+ year look at the game) We now have a clear statement from Adhira stating how this will work moving forward.  Awesome.  This didn't exist before this thread.  My only hope now is it gets added to help_wagon_making so that new players also realize what is needed.

[kayza]

Independent merchant are pretty easy mode.  You have unlimited sid practically so saying you spent thousands of sid on it means squat.
When you join a clan you pretty much sacrifice this power to a degree.  There should be benefits for doing it, otherwise beyond it making good RP sense why join one?

If you're saying that being independent makes things easier, I think you fail to grasp the political landscape that is Armageddon.  Sid doesn't mean squat, you're right.  Power is everything, but the powerful need sid... I think you can connect the dots.

Well we are talking about Wagons and you used sid spent to say you should of got one.   All I was saying is 'so what?' 

[Maso]

Entirely derailing from the whole wagon thing....

See above on staff priority vs. player interest.  These two things are frequently at odds.

This seems a bit of an arse about face scenario. Why would staff choose to prioritise things that are not in the interest of the player base? Surely a lot of the discontent and tension between players and staff would be alleviated by choosing to prioritise things that are in the interest of the player base.

Confusing.

[Morgenes]

Entirely derailing from the whole wagon thing....

See above on staff priority vs. player interest.  These two things are frequently at odds.

This seems a bit of an arse about face scenario. Why would staff choose to prioritise things that are not in the interest of the player base? Surely a lot of the discontent and tension between players and staff would be alleviated by choosing to prioritise things that are in the interest of the player base.

Confusing.

Simply, player priorities do steer our direction, however in many cases there are other projects in the works that need to be done as well.  In many cases these other projects are equally drooled over by the player base.  Other times they are more infrastructure related or overarching that may not seem immediately obviously progressing or helping the players, but they will eventually allow us to do other things easier.

Ultimately though, we are a limited, volunteer staff.  We work on what interests us within the high priority projects that are ongoing as we have time to get to them. 

I hope that clarifies the disconnect between the vocal player focus on what is 'important' this second (which does change day by day), and what we choose to work on.

[Maso]

When you put it like that.

[Marc]

Independent merchant are pretty easy mode.  You have unlimited sid practically so saying you spent thousands of sid on it means squat.
When you join a clan you pretty much sacrifice this power to a degree.  There should be benefits for doing it, otherwise beyond it making good RP sense why join one?

If you're saying that being independent makes things easier, I think you fail to grasp the political landscape that is Armageddon.  Sid doesn't mean squat, you're right.  Power is everything, but the powerful need sid... I think you can connect the dots.

Well we are talking about Wagons and you used sid spent to say you should of got one.   All I was saying is 'so what?' 

Oh brother.  Let's try to make this simple:

"Most recently I tried to have another wagon made/purchase an existing one.  Two different noble houses offered to 'buy' the wagon for me.  Certain merchant houses and certain successful wagon-making merchants were drawn in and convinced (at least from my perspective) to build it.  City-state support was retained to acquire an old wagon hull.  Lots of characters involved over the course of in-game years and staggering (think many 100k+) amounts of sid were spent on bribes, supplies etc.  End result?  No wagons for independents but feel free to join a merchant house."

I put the non-money based things in bold for you.  This didn't work.  The sid only shows that capital was present.  A million obsidian coins dropped at the feet of a wagon-maker wouldn't have mattered at the time.

"My first independent wagon came easy enough.  I had a character with a lot of sid.  I went to a Merchant House.  I offered to buy a wagon and after a quick email exchange with Sanvean it was approved.  This was early 2000's."

This was entirely money based as the character in question had absolutely 0 political sway.   Maybe you're backwards in your thinking and the only thing that does matter is the sid?

Regardless, it has been answered by staff.  Thank you for your input.  It helped move things along.

[chrisdcoulombe]

In Elder Scrolls Skyrim, no foot prints are in the snow when you walk on it.  That is ridiculous we should attack Bethesda mercilessly.

[Twilight]

If it changes we'll let you know.

I'm happy enough with just this, if staff publically let everyone know if/when policy on wagonmaking changes, as my perception is that in the past it was something you only knew the current state of if you were specifically in communication with staff on it, and its changed over time.

[drunkendwarf]

In Elder Scrolls Skyrim, no foot prints are in the snow when you walk on it.  That is ridiculous we should attack Bethesda mercilessly.

WTF?

[Nyr]

My issue is favoritism, cronyism etc and wagon making puts that in clear relief.  Some get wagons made.  Some don't.  (this is from a 15+ year look at the game)

Favoritism, cronyism, etc. has nothing to do with why wagons got made before.  All that happened was that policy changed over time.  That's it.  No one got a wagon built because they were buddies with staff or because they were really nice or because we just don't like some people and we like other people.  Now you know and everyone else does.  We all win!  Yay! 

Also note that your interpretation of those events you refer to with regards to a wagon purchase is off some from what actually occurred.  There was more going on there than just the policy definition that affected your goals (I reviewed it from the request tool and the IDB just to be sure I was familiar with what went on).

At any rate, good luck everyone.  This thread is done, we've established what the policy is, and we've stated what's going on.  Now go out there and kick some butt.