Re-Opening the Mesa Gith Tribe to Play

[Cind]

maybe an offshoot band of gith can form a somewhat more peaceable tribe which eventually gets allowed into allanak?

I have no idea how long ago the gith wars were in game time, and whether that would make an impact on an attempt to open relations. I think they shouldn't even try at Luir's, but having a moderately peaceful gith tribe which doesn't pk to a large extent and is able to get into 'nak sounds awesome.

[Yam]

maybe an offshoot band of gith can form a somewhat more peaceable tribe which eventually gets allowed into allanak?

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooope

[Ktavialt]

maybe an offshoot band of gith can form a somewhat more peaceable tribe which eventually gets allowed into allanak?

I have no idea how long ago the gith wars were in game time, and whether that would make an impact on an attempt to open relations. I think they shouldn't even try at Luir's, but having a moderately peaceful gith tribe which doesn't pk to a large extent and is able to get into 'nak sounds awesome.

The gith cultural I believe is simply too adversarial for this to occur.  If you change the culture then maybe, but then you aren't playing gith; you're playing a tribal with gith clothing on, and we already have tribals.

I think Talia has a point about the hopelessness for gith PCs, i.e. only way to interact with non-gith PCs would typically be violence.  I still would like to try them anyways to give it a shot.  Maybe if we had more players, so that the isolated gith have enough other gith to interact with without diluting the playerbase, then I would want it to happen, but I'm overall strongly against pbase dilution.

[Bacon]

A gith tribe would have exactly one option for interacting with the playerbase: Violence.

So on the one side you end up with boredom (the gith), and on the other side you'd have whining (the rest of the players). Sure, it's plenty cool as a concept, but it's not a formula for fun.

On the first point, I don't think this is a bad thing.

On the second, I don't believe in allowing the whiners to ruins things for the rest of us. Also, I don't see them as being any more boring than playing in one of the delf tribes that are based out of the area. Just different.

I'd have fun on either end of things if the gith were opened for even a little while. Being killed by a pc gith would be WAAAAY more fun than being killed by an npc one. I don't see them as being any more isolated than the delves of the tablelands, in fact, they would add to that area of the world and make it a more interesting environment to play in than just being some mindless npcs in the area.

[Talia]

Maybe if we had more players, so that the isolated gith have enough other gith to interact with without diluting the playerbase, then I would want it to happen, but I'm overall strongly against pbase dilution.

Shameless and general plug: Join the Publicity group! Help us grow the playerbase! No promises that we would then open up anything new, but heck, you never know!

[HavokBlue]

As someone who loves playing in the Tablelands... I could see the gith being a fun force there, but the previously stated concerns about isolation and playerbase issues make too much sense. Something like Blackmoon with a bit more liberty in their play would be pretty cool though.

[ShaLeah]

I'm very strongly of the opinion that we do not need more ways for players to isolate themselves from the rest of the playerbase. A gith tribe would have exactly one option for interacting with the playerbase: Violence. So on the one side you end up with boredom (the gith), and on the other side you'd have whining (the rest of the players). Sure, it's plenty cool as a concept, but it's not a formula for fun.

Ditto

[CravenMadness]

The only thing that would cause a hiccup would be waiting for the ranks to fill.. Can't have a tribal culture develop if your members die off one at a time 'cause there's nothing back at camp to entertain them.

If, maybe, before opening ... They collected a number of special apps to approve all at the same time to all enter the game together and get situated into their roles and feel out their habitat... It might go a way towards establishing inter tribe -roleplay- to go along with the violence to strangers mentality.  At least to start, once that initial group is in of course let'em come as they are.

Mesa gith would end up being a foil for the Soh, while the Sun Runners worry about trading or whatever it is they do...

I'd be a permanent Gith player I think.. heh..

[Titania]

Sure, it's plenty cool as a concept, but it's not a formula for fun.

I think there are many many different interpretations of what is 'fun' about the game. I would love to have the gith open.

On the other hand, I'd almost rather there be only one main city, with a full complement of houses in practically open war than two cities at 'peace' splitting the player base.

[Talia]

I think there are many many different interpretations of what is 'fun' about the game.

We're really talking about different things. You are speaking from the perspective of what would be fun for you as an individual. I am speaking from the perspective of what the majority of the playerbase finds enjoyable to do. Most players do not enjoy heavily isolated roles where they can't do things like go visit a city, or hang out in a tavern. We know this because roles of this type get stored with extreme frequency. (Similar to slave roles.)

From that perspective, it is not worth staff time to invest in things that are not fun for the majority of players. We've got a whole game to take care of, and creating niches that lead to lots of setup (for staff) and then quick storage (by players) is a bad proposition.

Yes, there are a few (very few) outlying players who love that sort of isolated role and can play it for the long-term, but we can't design the game around them. If a player really desires that kind of role, they can create it for themselves by playing solo and not entering the cities.

[Titania]

I think there are many many different interpretations of what is 'fun' about the game.

You are speaking from the perspective of what would be fun for you as an individual. I am speaking from the perspective of what the majority of the playerbase finds enjoyable to do.

I don't think you speak for the playerbase any more than I do. How do you know what the majority of the playerbase thinks without asking?

[Talia]

I don't think you speak for the playerbase any more than I do. How do you know what the majority of the playerbase thinks without asking?

It's not difficult to understand player motivations by observing player behavior. As I said, we know these things because (for example) we can see how quickly and how frequently players store when they are playing particular roles. The objective fact is that certain roles get stored more often and faster, and isolated roles with limited capacity for social interaction with the wider world, and with limited ability to travel the world or enter cities, are some of these.

[Rhyden]

I would love for gith to be available to players just to add some more friction in the world.

But if can't be done, guess it can't be done. *shrug*

[Celest]

I don't think you speak for the playerbase any more than I do. How do you know what the majority of the playerbase thinks without asking?

It's not difficult to understand player motivations by observing player behavior. As I said, we know these things because (for example) we can see how quickly and how frequently players store when they are playing particular roles. The objective fact is that certain roles get stored more often and faster, and isolated roles with limited capacity for social interaction with the wider world, and with limited ability to travel the world or enter cities, are some of these.

And yet some of these roles, I think, have waiting lines for the role, despite the quicker storage. I know certain roles I've apped for have been full for the past few months or so, every time I app, and staff suggested that I can role app and they'd let me know when a spot was free. Doesn't that suggest that a storage problem is not a lack of desire to play that role, but another issue within the role itself?

I can't speak for others, but I enjoy isolated roles, so long as "isolated" does not mean "cannot interact with other players," but rather, "limits interaction with other players." If there are people in the clan that can be regularly RPed with, and if there is enough freedom given to allow some plausible interaction with people outside of your clan every now and then (be it for trade, defending territory, or raiding), then I'm okay with isolation. When you finally do interact with people outside of the clan you're so used to the clan RP (and they're so unused to it) that it adds a very compelling dynamic to the RP, and seems to make it a lot easier to get things done, too, and does wonders for the 'feel' of the world.

It can get dull when no one is around to RP with, but that's honestly true for any clan. Even being a Bynner can feel isolated when there's no one in the taverns, and no one to train with. I don't think that's an issue that is exclusive to these sorts of roles, just more prominent due to the smaller pool of players in that isolated area to draw from.

While I know that spreading the total player base too thinly is a real concern, I'd hope staff would consider that with the RF gone, it feels like there isn't a constant-presence-on-the-sands threat anymore. Some regions may have certain clans who are at odds with other clans, but the Red Fang's presence was felt virtually anywhere. If it was treated like nobles or Tan Muark are with a role-call for a few players, I don't think that the isolation would be so bad, because then the staff could pick players who are good in isolated roles, who have playtimes that overlap to encourage RP within the clan and to discourage boredom storing, and who are self-driven.

Anyway! That's my two sids. It's entirely possible that Gith are different from Red Fang and a lot of the benefit of a role like this just wouldn't be felt for most of the playerbase.

[Talia]

And yet some of these roles, I think, have waiting lines for the role, despite the quicker storage. I know certain roles I've apped for have been full for the past few months or so, every time I app, and staff suggested that I can role app and they'd let me know when a spot was free. Doesn't that suggest that a storage problem is not a lack of desire to play that role, but another issue within the role itself?

The two desert elf tribes which are currently open for play I would not classify as iso roles. Both clans have some capacity to travel, to enter and hang out in settlements, and to interact with a wide variety of other PCs in a number of different modes.

I don't really know what you mean about lack of desire to play a role versus some other problem in the role. It's problems in iso roles (primarily the isolated nature and circumscribing of certain play activities that most players enjoy) which cause the storing. I would agree that players think they want to play these roles--that's evident here. But when the time comes to actually play the roles, there's a demonstrated lack of ability to stick to them. (Note that I'm not faulting the players. The roles themselves simply don't provide the fun that players are looking for.) It's a case of the fantasy of the role not matching the reality of the role.

[Timetwister]

Shit those gith have been killed so often it's not even funny, they should have been wiped out years ago.

On a more serious note I don't think anybody can justify opening a clan like that anyway. Too many people will start complaining and whining. If anything needs to be (re?) opened it should be the Plainsfolk or something not the gith.

[BleakOne]

I am in agreement with Talia.

[Hot_Dancer]

Isolated tribes of races who are capable of interacting with the rest of the game world via dialogue (and violence) tend
to be closed and reopened from time to time. I don't believe the Soh and the Red Fang were open to play at the same
time (probably because they have a fairly similar niche) and these were characters that were able to interact with others
in the gameworld without training some sort of attack action in the command queue.

It'd take a very strong internal playerbase and strong storyteller work to keep a tribe of gith going. Otherwise, I simply
see your average gith player lasting about 6 months -tops- before storing/suiciding and odds are they'd be running around
and excitement seeking/exploring at the edge/outside their documentation long before that.

I've generally seen this kind of stuff from the isolated elven tribes (Soh/Blackwing/Akei) and am sure it would be likewise
with a gith tribe. I wouldn't be surprised if the Soh were cycled off/on again this year or the next due to their isolation
and if an elven tribe struggles to stay open it may be harder for a gith tribe.

I could see a gith tribe as more viable if staff opened them for a few months/closed them as resources in storytellers/players
waxed/waned. They'd be Zalanthas: Limited Edition! Open as long as the current batch of PC's last. Better luck next time.

[Celest]

The two desert elf tribes which are currently open for play I would not classify as iso roles. Both clans have some capacity to travel, to enter and hang out in settlements, and to interact with a wide variety of other PCs in a number of different modes.

I don't really know what you mean about lack of desire to play a role versus some other problem in the role. It's problems in iso roles (primarily the isolated nature and circumscribing of certain play activities that most players enjoy) which cause the storing. I would agree that players think they want to play these roles--that's evident here. But when the time comes to actually play the roles, there's a demonstrated lack of ability to stick to them. (Note that I'm not faulting the players. The roles themselves simply don't provide the fun that players are looking for.) It's a case of the fantasy of the role not matching the reality of the role.

If those roles aren't considered isolated roles, then I'm not actually sure what would be considered an isolated role. So maybe we just have different definitions of isolated roles? Again, like I said before, I'm drawing a comparison between the Gith mesa (which I have never seen RPed by players) and Red Fang (which are the closest thing I can imagine to that role), which seemed to thrive despite being socially isolated. I'm also drawing comparisons to the most isolated role I've played, which was a Soh. I really didn't mind being largely unable to leave a confined area, as Soh, because that area overlapped with a fairly well traveled trade route and allowed for a lot of interaction with players. But, my impression (and sorry if this is IC info, delete it if it is) from docs and posts was that actually going to settlements was generally frowned upon and was something that isn't generally done, and I should stick to aforementioned territories. So I had thought that Soh were a pretty isolated role.

If it's even more isolated than that, then I can see how there may be a misconception on the role which leads to storing - where they expect something like the current tribes, but get more than they bargained for.

[Nyr]

Fortunately, we don't open and close clans based on player desires, but staff determination of what would be best for the game.

[Bacon]

I played a halfling back when they were opened for a period of time. I did not store and I enjoyed the role immensely. Also, I completely disagree that the delves  are not isolated roles, they are what I would consider isolated roles. Also, gith would be in the area as some of those elves so it would actually condense some of the pbase in that area.

[Kronibas]

If gith were introduced to the Pah, then there would probably be almost constant PK battles between gith and DElves,

and I'm all for less DElves 

[CravenMadness]

Player Desires.. Isn't that kind of where... like.. -all- clans have come from?  Open them up.. oh, looks like these clans are keeping players coming back.. We'll keep these open and trim the rest.

Well, how long has it been since the gith were given a shot?  Maybe with the races that have been narrowed down, people want to play something more alien than a cranked out elf or a stubborn stump or the generic human #842.

[Dakota]

Soh's are very iso. Some capacity to travel would be more like limited capacity.

Soh's are also very fun.

Mesa Gith would be fun or just any 3rd tribe that are fundamentally antagonists.

[Nyr]

Player Desires.. Isn't that kind of where... like.. -all- clans have come from?

Staff oversight comes between player desires and what players get when it requires staff involvement.

A:  Player desires to do something ---->  B:  Staff oversight, review, and determination ---->  C:  result of player desires

A can be anything under the sun, sometimes asked in requests, sometimes on the GDB.  (Some things just aren't ever going to be received well on the GDB.  Opening up a "tribe" or "clan" or whatever is one of them.)

Let me/everyone play a gith/mantis/<insert x role>. 
Open up this clan. 
Close this clan.
Karma-restrict dwarves.
I've got a neat idea for a mastercraft, take a look and let me know if this is feasible.
This code thing has always bothered me, can it be fixed?

B requires review over past precedent, discussion on whether the desire is feasible/player-led/makes sense, use staff judgment based on overall perception of the game's atmosphere.

Did the role work well last time?  Who enjoyed it?  What sucked about it?  Do we have clear reasons we won't allow it?  Do we want to devote resources to this?
Does the clan serve any purpose/fill any particular niche in the current game environment?  Has it ever been open?  Why was it closed?  Do we want to devote resources to this?
Does the clan cause any major detriment to the current game environment?  Has it ever been closed before--and if so, why?  Is this just butthurt?
...
Is the craft anachronistic or otherwise cheesy?  If not, does it add something cool to the game?
Is it a bug?  Can this be improved?  Can this be improved easily?  Is there an alternative?  Do we have resources to devote to this?  Do we want to devote resources to this?

C involves the response to players.

No, we are not going to open up the gith for players to play.  Players may have enjoyed it before, but player desires are always going to be tempered by the reality of the situation as perceived by staff.  We do not see a niche for a clan/tribe that focuses on pure violent antagonism being open to the playerbase.  We do not feel that it is appropriate to change the gith to be less antagonistic.  And finally, we do not want to devote staff resources to this when we have other things that are in the works that could use those resources.

Well, how long has it been since the gith were given a shot?  Maybe with the races that have been narrowed down, people want to play something more alien than a cranked out elf or a stubborn stump or the generic human #842.

While it is never any guarantee, there is a special application system.  See previous staff responses on what may/may not be accepted.  If you have a great, awesome idea for a role that is not normally playable, submit it.  If it gets rejected, the idea wasn't perceived to be that great or awesome by staff.  Them's the breaks.