Re-Opening the Mesa Gith Tribe to Play

[Hot_Dancer]

Should ye olde Mesa Gith be opened to the playerbase again?

I had one for a very brief period of time too many years ago. They've a culture as interesting to play
around with as any other tribal peoples in game. They use to be huge but IC events may have reduced
them to less a potentially powerful player in the game world. This is a tribe that at their peak, supposedly
numbers a couple thousand or more.

It could be stated that there is in fact room in the game world/playerbase. The Halfings appear closed, we're
at 2 desert elf tribes rather than the norm of 3 (but 2x city elf tribes now to contradict).

It could also be stated that their ability to interact with the rest of the playerbase is much too limited
to allow into the game and adding another isolated tribe just spreads players too thin.

Thoughts?
Cheers,
HD

[Bacon]

I've always wanted to play a gith pc in their tribe and really find out what their culture is like. I would love to see this happen. They would also add something to that area of the game that, IMO is lacking currently.

[Desertman]

More PC villians is always a good thing.

[Cind]

I'd love gith roles if I could play them. It'd be nice to play something that is somewhat out of touch with the main superculture of the settled areas for a change, and to truly live in a wasteland area.

[RogueGunslinger]

Yes it would be awesome.

Don't really see it happening though. Staff have stated their reasons why about this before, I think. They tend to not like raiding clans that are solely antagonistic.

[Fredd]

Raider clans add danger to the world in a way that normal npc's dont. But sadly what tends to happen is this

The group gets a few good, active pc's that know what they are doing. They hit the right spots, at the right times. This, of course, starts attracting new players. These new players follow there leaders, generally. But then the leaders die and the new guys take over. They then decide to one up there previous bosses, and this tends to be way to much, and starts a war.

PC leaders jump at the chance to pu on there hero cape, gear up there men, band together, and destroy the pc raider group, obliterating them.

Then we have no pc raiders for a long long time.

Just something I, personally, noticed in my couple of years. I'm all for it, but I would like to see this normal formula avoided somehow... Maybe make them the same karma as a HG? So Only the dedicate,d knowledgeable players play them?

[Bacon]

If they were opened up for play I'm sure they'd be spec app only.

[Hot_Dancer]

The Mesa Gith's area of influence doesn't really edge into high-traffic game areas where Raiders are capable of
getting themselves into too much trouble. This is a group that is probably not going to affect much more than
the Tablelands. Long distance travel is pretty difficult for a gith pc via their movement charactaristics, unless
they're climbing the Shield Wall looking for trouble (again, not easy). They simply have very poor range.

I imagine your average gith player would be skirmishing with the local tribals, hunting food and doing their tribal
thing socially. (and more that may be too IC to disclose). 

[brytta.leofa]

Don't really see it happening though. Staff have stated their reasons why about this before, I think. They tend to not like raiding clans that are solely antagonistic.

Kah?

[Bacon]

The Mesa Gith's area of influence doesn't really edge into high-traffic game areas where Raiders are capable of
getting themselves into too much trouble. This is a group that is probably not going to affect much more than
the Tablelands. Long distance travel is pretty difficult for a gith pc via their movement charactaristics, unless
they're climbing the Shield Wall looking for trouble (again, not easy). They simply have very poor range.

I imagine your average gith player would be skirmishing with the local tribals, hunting food and doing their tribal
thing socially. (and more that may be too IC to disclose). 

Yeah they would impact other areas of the game less than the desert elves currently do.

[RogueGunslinger]

Don't really see it happening though. Staff have stated their reasons why about this before, I think. They tend to not like raiding clans that are solely antagonistic.

Kah?

Just wait for it.

[Dalmeth]

Personally, I think the gith would be much more viable if they weren't a, "kill everything," clan.  Just say they only raid rich tribes and city caravans on a regular basis, along with a few historical hatreds, and I think you can leave everything else to, "fair game for whatever fun you might reasonably imagine."

[palomar]

No. They're too isolated and kill-oriented. With the Red Fangs permanently closed, they have even less contact with the outside world.

Sure, they may have rich culture but they're still hostile towards everyone else. Clans with too much raider focus haven't been too awesome in the past years, in my most personal experience/opinion.

I do not think the game needs another iso- or hostile clan opened up for PCs, even if they'd be special app. Soh and Sun Runner elves should have plenty to do even without gith PCs around.

[Wasteland Raider]

The gith are unlikely to be opened when other clans (halflings, for one) have been shut down to avoid diluting the playerbase. Honestly, it's bad enough that we have Allanak (including the Labyrinth), Tuluk, Red Storm, Luir's, Blackwing, the various tentcamps, Tyn Dashra, Cenyr, and the logging camp to spread out our 60-or-so concurrent players.

I'd love to see the gith open for play. I'd love to see the Conclave, too, and the halflings and a few other IC places that aren't supercommon knowledge. It'd be rad. We really just don't have the playerbase to support it, though, and I'd rather see the fantastic players that WOULD make a gith roll up AOD soldiers, Soh Lanah Kah, Tuluki partisans and the whole other slew of things available.

[boog]

I would love to play a dirty, dirty gith.

[Recharge]

The same old easily escapeable animals and npcs arent very fear inducing. Id love to be chased down by a pc gith.

[Kronibas]

I've played two gith PCs before.  They were really fun, but I died really quickly, as they were my first desert-only roles.

To my knowledge, the gith haven't been open since then (2000-2001?), with maybe a couple of exceptions.


Once upon a time, gith roamed the streets of Red Storm.  I don't know why these NPCs were removed, but it does hint to the fact that gith are not completely incapable of interacting with the rest of the Known in a non-murderous fashion.

[valeria]

Once upon a time, gith roamed the streets of Red Storm.  I don't know why these NPCs were removed, but it does hint to the fact that gith are not completely incapable of interacting with the rest of the Known in a non-murderous fashion.

Or their removal indicates the opposite.

[Wasteland Raider]

And once upon a time, mantis and halflings sat down for a beer in Flint's.

I'm not trying to be snarky, even though it might read that way - I'm just trying to state that sometimes the game evolves and things need to be retconned.

[Morrolan]

I am only slightly interested in playing gith.

I am not interested in playing "against" gith.

An external (to the human population) enemy that is so culturally foreign will do nothing but drive many humans to work together.

And how Armageddon is that?

The gith are our chance to play heroes. But...we're not.

[musashi]

I think having the gith tribe opened up would be pretty cool ... if ... they were kept in the southern tablelands/mantis valley, staff approved RPT style excursions excepting.

Limiting them to that area would, I believe, keep them from getting super crazy on the rest of the player base as has happened with other clans in the past, and while that area is very isolated, it's no where near as isolated as the grey forest is. They would have plenty of chances to bump into wayward hunters who are mob-bashing through their turf.

[Bacon]

I think having the gith tribe opened up would be pretty cool ... if ... they were kept in the southern tablelands/mantis valley, staff approved RPT style excursions excepting.

Limiting them to that area would, I believe, keep them from getting super crazy on the rest of the player base as has happened with other clans in the past, and while that area is very isolated, it's no where near as isolated as the grey forest is. They would have plenty of chances to bump into wayward hunters who are mob-bashing through their turf.

I was kinda going off the assumption this would be the case personally.

[Ktavialt]

Raider clans add danger to the world in a way that normal npc's dont. But sadly what tends to happen is this

The group gets a few good, active pc's that know what they are doing. They hit the right spots, at the right times. This, of course, starts attracting new players. These new players follow there leaders, generally. But then the leaders die and the new guys take over. They then decide to one up there previous bosses, and this tends to be way to much, and starts a war.

PC leaders jump at the chance to pu on there hero cape, gear up there men, band together, and destroy the pc raider group, obliterating them.

Then we have no pc raiders for a long long time.

Just something I, personally, noticed in my couple of years. I'm all for it, but I would like to see this normal formula avoided somehow... Maybe make them the same karma as a HG? So Only the dedicate,d knowledgeable players play them?

With gith it is even worse.  I played some gith in the past and I got steamrolled.  Everybody hears gith PCs and then all of a sudden the hunt is on.  Its a PC who you have no reason NOT to kill, whereas if you are random JoeBob southerner you may not want to smack JimmyJimbo northerner because of his connections and just being a dick.  For some reason, PC gith don't get that added protection .  Then again, Gith would rarely give that consideration before whacking PC human/elf/half-elf #123534234.

With the advent of using karma to bump some starting skills up, maybe its viable to play a gith pc since most get wasted before they are worth anything.  I personally think that the staff should do a pet project thing where every so often they open up a race for a bit (kinda like this gladiator thing), allow some of X type race (gith/mantis/etc.), and then close it at an appropriate time.

[Talia]

I'm very strongly of the opinion that we do not need more ways for players to isolate themselves from the rest of the playerbase. A gith tribe would have exactly one option for interacting with the playerbase: Violence. So on the one side you end up with boredom (the gith), and on the other side you'd have whining (the rest of the players). Sure, it's plenty cool as a concept, but it's not a formula for fun.

[Kronibas]

but it's not a formula for fun.

I had fun with my two gith, and I think I only managed to kill one PC -- during a staff-initiated quest.

[Cind]

maybe an offshoot band of gith can form a somewhat more peaceable tribe which eventually gets allowed into allanak?

I have no idea how long ago the gith wars were in game time, and whether that would make an impact on an attempt to open relations. I think they shouldn't even try at Luir's, but having a moderately peaceful gith tribe which doesn't pk to a large extent and is able to get into 'nak sounds awesome.

[Yam]

maybe an offshoot band of gith can form a somewhat more peaceable tribe which eventually gets allowed into allanak?

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooope

[Ktavialt]

maybe an offshoot band of gith can form a somewhat more peaceable tribe which eventually gets allowed into allanak?

I have no idea how long ago the gith wars were in game time, and whether that would make an impact on an attempt to open relations. I think they shouldn't even try at Luir's, but having a moderately peaceful gith tribe which doesn't pk to a large extent and is able to get into 'nak sounds awesome.

The gith cultural I believe is simply too adversarial for this to occur.  If you change the culture then maybe, but then you aren't playing gith; you're playing a tribal with gith clothing on, and we already have tribals.

I think Talia has a point about the hopelessness for gith PCs, i.e. only way to interact with non-gith PCs would typically be violence.  I still would like to try them anyways to give it a shot.  Maybe if we had more players, so that the isolated gith have enough other gith to interact with without diluting the playerbase, then I would want it to happen, but I'm overall strongly against pbase dilution.

[Bacon]

A gith tribe would have exactly one option for interacting with the playerbase: Violence.

So on the one side you end up with boredom (the gith), and on the other side you'd have whining (the rest of the players). Sure, it's plenty cool as a concept, but it's not a formula for fun.

On the first point, I don't think this is a bad thing.

On the second, I don't believe in allowing the whiners to ruins things for the rest of us. Also, I don't see them as being any more boring than playing in one of the delf tribes that are based out of the area. Just different.

I'd have fun on either end of things if the gith were opened for even a little while. Being killed by a pc gith would be WAAAAY more fun than being killed by an npc one. I don't see them as being any more isolated than the delves of the tablelands, in fact, they would add to that area of the world and make it a more interesting environment to play in than just being some mindless npcs in the area.

[Talia]

Maybe if we had more players, so that the isolated gith have enough other gith to interact with without diluting the playerbase, then I would want it to happen, but I'm overall strongly against pbase dilution.

Shameless and general plug: Join the Publicity group! Help us grow the playerbase! No promises that we would then open up anything new, but heck, you never know!

[HavokBlue]

As someone who loves playing in the Tablelands... I could see the gith being a fun force there, but the previously stated concerns about isolation and playerbase issues make too much sense. Something like Blackmoon with a bit more liberty in their play would be pretty cool though.

[ShaLeah]

I'm very strongly of the opinion that we do not need more ways for players to isolate themselves from the rest of the playerbase. A gith tribe would have exactly one option for interacting with the playerbase: Violence. So on the one side you end up with boredom (the gith), and on the other side you'd have whining (the rest of the players). Sure, it's plenty cool as a concept, but it's not a formula for fun.

Ditto

[CravenMadness]

The only thing that would cause a hiccup would be waiting for the ranks to fill.. Can't have a tribal culture develop if your members die off one at a time 'cause there's nothing back at camp to entertain them.

If, maybe, before opening ... They collected a number of special apps to approve all at the same time to all enter the game together and get situated into their roles and feel out their habitat... It might go a way towards establishing inter tribe -roleplay- to go along with the violence to strangers mentality.  At least to start, once that initial group is in of course let'em come as they are.

Mesa gith would end up being a foil for the Soh, while the Sun Runners worry about trading or whatever it is they do...

I'd be a permanent Gith player I think.. heh..

[Titania]

Sure, it's plenty cool as a concept, but it's not a formula for fun.

I think there are many many different interpretations of what is 'fun' about the game. I would love to have the gith open.

On the other hand, I'd almost rather there be only one main city, with a full complement of houses in practically open war than two cities at 'peace' splitting the player base.

[Talia]

I think there are many many different interpretations of what is 'fun' about the game.

We're really talking about different things. You are speaking from the perspective of what would be fun for you as an individual. I am speaking from the perspective of what the majority of the playerbase finds enjoyable to do. Most players do not enjoy heavily isolated roles where they can't do things like go visit a city, or hang out in a tavern. We know this because roles of this type get stored with extreme frequency. (Similar to slave roles.)

From that perspective, it is not worth staff time to invest in things that are not fun for the majority of players. We've got a whole game to take care of, and creating niches that lead to lots of setup (for staff) and then quick storage (by players) is a bad proposition.

Yes, there are a few (very few) outlying players who love that sort of isolated role and can play it for the long-term, but we can't design the game around them. If a player really desires that kind of role, they can create it for themselves by playing solo and not entering the cities.

[Titania]

I think there are many many different interpretations of what is 'fun' about the game.

You are speaking from the perspective of what would be fun for you as an individual. I am speaking from the perspective of what the majority of the playerbase finds enjoyable to do.

I don't think you speak for the playerbase any more than I do. How do you know what the majority of the playerbase thinks without asking?

[Talia]

I don't think you speak for the playerbase any more than I do. How do you know what the majority of the playerbase thinks without asking?

It's not difficult to understand player motivations by observing player behavior. As I said, we know these things because (for example) we can see how quickly and how frequently players store when they are playing particular roles. The objective fact is that certain roles get stored more often and faster, and isolated roles with limited capacity for social interaction with the wider world, and with limited ability to travel the world or enter cities, are some of these.

[Rhyden]

I would love for gith to be available to players just to add some more friction in the world.

But if can't be done, guess it can't be done. *shrug*

[Celest]

I don't think you speak for the playerbase any more than I do. How do you know what the majority of the playerbase thinks without asking?

It's not difficult to understand player motivations by observing player behavior. As I said, we know these things because (for example) we can see how quickly and how frequently players store when they are playing particular roles. The objective fact is that certain roles get stored more often and faster, and isolated roles with limited capacity for social interaction with the wider world, and with limited ability to travel the world or enter cities, are some of these.

And yet some of these roles, I think, have waiting lines for the role, despite the quicker storage. I know certain roles I've apped for have been full for the past few months or so, every time I app, and staff suggested that I can role app and they'd let me know when a spot was free. Doesn't that suggest that a storage problem is not a lack of desire to play that role, but another issue within the role itself?

I can't speak for others, but I enjoy isolated roles, so long as "isolated" does not mean "cannot interact with other players," but rather, "limits interaction with other players." If there are people in the clan that can be regularly RPed with, and if there is enough freedom given to allow some plausible interaction with people outside of your clan every now and then (be it for trade, defending territory, or raiding), then I'm okay with isolation. When you finally do interact with people outside of the clan you're so used to the clan RP (and they're so unused to it) that it adds a very compelling dynamic to the RP, and seems to make it a lot easier to get things done, too, and does wonders for the 'feel' of the world.

It can get dull when no one is around to RP with, but that's honestly true for any clan. Even being a Bynner can feel isolated when there's no one in the taverns, and no one to train with. I don't think that's an issue that is exclusive to these sorts of roles, just more prominent due to the smaller pool of players in that isolated area to draw from.

While I know that spreading the total player base too thinly is a real concern, I'd hope staff would consider that with the RF gone, it feels like there isn't a constant-presence-on-the-sands threat anymore. Some regions may have certain clans who are at odds with other clans, but the Red Fang's presence was felt virtually anywhere. If it was treated like nobles or Tan Muark are with a role-call for a few players, I don't think that the isolation would be so bad, because then the staff could pick players who are good in isolated roles, who have playtimes that overlap to encourage RP within the clan and to discourage boredom storing, and who are self-driven.

Anyway! That's my two sids. It's entirely possible that Gith are different from Red Fang and a lot of the benefit of a role like this just wouldn't be felt for most of the playerbase.

[Talia]

And yet some of these roles, I think, have waiting lines for the role, despite the quicker storage. I know certain roles I've apped for have been full for the past few months or so, every time I app, and staff suggested that I can role app and they'd let me know when a spot was free. Doesn't that suggest that a storage problem is not a lack of desire to play that role, but another issue within the role itself?

The two desert elf tribes which are currently open for play I would not classify as iso roles. Both clans have some capacity to travel, to enter and hang out in settlements, and to interact with a wide variety of other PCs in a number of different modes.

I don't really know what you mean about lack of desire to play a role versus some other problem in the role. It's problems in iso roles (primarily the isolated nature and circumscribing of certain play activities that most players enjoy) which cause the storing. I would agree that players think they want to play these roles--that's evident here. But when the time comes to actually play the roles, there's a demonstrated lack of ability to stick to them. (Note that I'm not faulting the players. The roles themselves simply don't provide the fun that players are looking for.) It's a case of the fantasy of the role not matching the reality of the role.

[Timetwister]

Shit those gith have been killed so often it's not even funny, they should have been wiped out years ago.

On a more serious note I don't think anybody can justify opening a clan like that anyway. Too many people will start complaining and whining. If anything needs to be (re?) opened it should be the Plainsfolk or something not the gith.

[BleakOne]

I am in agreement with Talia.

[Hot_Dancer]

Isolated tribes of races who are capable of interacting with the rest of the game world via dialogue (and violence) tend
to be closed and reopened from time to time. I don't believe the Soh and the Red Fang were open to play at the same
time (probably because they have a fairly similar niche) and these were characters that were able to interact with others
in the gameworld without training some sort of attack action in the command queue.

It'd take a very strong internal playerbase and strong storyteller work to keep a tribe of gith going. Otherwise, I simply
see your average gith player lasting about 6 months -tops- before storing/suiciding and odds are they'd be running around
and excitement seeking/exploring at the edge/outside their documentation long before that.

I've generally seen this kind of stuff from the isolated elven tribes (Soh/Blackwing/Akei) and am sure it would be likewise
with a gith tribe. I wouldn't be surprised if the Soh were cycled off/on again this year or the next due to their isolation
and if an elven tribe struggles to stay open it may be harder for a gith tribe.

I could see a gith tribe as more viable if staff opened them for a few months/closed them as resources in storytellers/players
waxed/waned. They'd be Zalanthas: Limited Edition! Open as long as the current batch of PC's last. Better luck next time.

[Celest]

The two desert elf tribes which are currently open for play I would not classify as iso roles. Both clans have some capacity to travel, to enter and hang out in settlements, and to interact with a wide variety of other PCs in a number of different modes.

I don't really know what you mean about lack of desire to play a role versus some other problem in the role. It's problems in iso roles (primarily the isolated nature and circumscribing of certain play activities that most players enjoy) which cause the storing. I would agree that players think they want to play these roles--that's evident here. But when the time comes to actually play the roles, there's a demonstrated lack of ability to stick to them. (Note that I'm not faulting the players. The roles themselves simply don't provide the fun that players are looking for.) It's a case of the fantasy of the role not matching the reality of the role.

If those roles aren't considered isolated roles, then I'm not actually sure what would be considered an isolated role. So maybe we just have different definitions of isolated roles? Again, like I said before, I'm drawing a comparison between the Gith mesa (which I have never seen RPed by players) and Red Fang (which are the closest thing I can imagine to that role), which seemed to thrive despite being socially isolated. I'm also drawing comparisons to the most isolated role I've played, which was a Soh. I really didn't mind being largely unable to leave a confined area, as Soh, because that area overlapped with a fairly well traveled trade route and allowed for a lot of interaction with players. But, my impression (and sorry if this is IC info, delete it if it is) from docs and posts was that actually going to settlements was generally frowned upon and was something that isn't generally done, and I should stick to aforementioned territories. So I had thought that Soh were a pretty isolated role.

If it's even more isolated than that, then I can see how there may be a misconception on the role which leads to storing - where they expect something like the current tribes, but get more than they bargained for.

[Nyr]

Fortunately, we don't open and close clans based on player desires, but staff determination of what would be best for the game.

[Bacon]

I played a halfling back when they were opened for a period of time. I did not store and I enjoyed the role immensely. Also, I completely disagree that the delves  are not isolated roles, they are what I would consider isolated roles. Also, gith would be in the area as some of those elves so it would actually condense some of the pbase in that area.

[Kronibas]

If gith were introduced to the Pah, then there would probably be almost constant PK battles between gith and DElves,

and I'm all for less DElves 

[CravenMadness]

Player Desires.. Isn't that kind of where... like.. -all- clans have come from?  Open them up.. oh, looks like these clans are keeping players coming back.. We'll keep these open and trim the rest.

Well, how long has it been since the gith were given a shot?  Maybe with the races that have been narrowed down, people want to play something more alien than a cranked out elf or a stubborn stump or the generic human #842.

[Dakota]

Soh's are very iso. Some capacity to travel would be more like limited capacity.

Soh's are also very fun.

Mesa Gith would be fun or just any 3rd tribe that are fundamentally antagonists.

[Nyr]

Player Desires.. Isn't that kind of where... like.. -all- clans have come from?

Staff oversight comes between player desires and what players get when it requires staff involvement.

A:  Player desires to do something ---->  B:  Staff oversight, review, and determination ---->  C:  result of player desires

A can be anything under the sun, sometimes asked in requests, sometimes on the GDB.  (Some things just aren't ever going to be received well on the GDB.  Opening up a "tribe" or "clan" or whatever is one of them.)

Let me/everyone play a gith/mantis/<insert x role>. 
Open up this clan. 
Close this clan.
Karma-restrict dwarves.
I've got a neat idea for a mastercraft, take a look and let me know if this is feasible.
This code thing has always bothered me, can it be fixed?

B requires review over past precedent, discussion on whether the desire is feasible/player-led/makes sense, use staff judgment based on overall perception of the game's atmosphere.

Did the role work well last time?  Who enjoyed it?  What sucked about it?  Do we have clear reasons we won't allow it?  Do we want to devote resources to this?
Does the clan serve any purpose/fill any particular niche in the current game environment?  Has it ever been open?  Why was it closed?  Do we want to devote resources to this?
Does the clan cause any major detriment to the current game environment?  Has it ever been closed before--and if so, why?  Is this just butthurt?
...
Is the craft anachronistic or otherwise cheesy?  If not, does it add something cool to the game?
Is it a bug?  Can this be improved?  Can this be improved easily?  Is there an alternative?  Do we have resources to devote to this?  Do we want to devote resources to this?

C involves the response to players.

No, we are not going to open up the gith for players to play.  Players may have enjoyed it before, but player desires are always going to be tempered by the reality of the situation as perceived by staff.  We do not see a niche for a clan/tribe that focuses on pure violent antagonism being open to the playerbase.  We do not feel that it is appropriate to change the gith to be less antagonistic.  And finally, we do not want to devote staff resources to this when we have other things that are in the works that could use those resources.

Well, how long has it been since the gith were given a shot?  Maybe with the races that have been narrowed down, people want to play something more alien than a cranked out elf or a stubborn stump or the generic human #842.

While it is never any guarantee, there is a special application system.  See previous staff responses on what may/may not be accepted.  If you have a great, awesome idea for a role that is not normally playable, submit it.  If it gets rejected, the idea wasn't perceived to be that great or awesome by staff.  Them's the breaks.

[gfair]

I'd enjoy playing a Gith just for the pure enjoyment of seeing what they are actually like as a culture. With that said, I don't see any opportunity for them to become more socialized such that any gathering place in its right mind would tolerate them so quickly.

A counterpoint to this is that we also don't really have a truly "lawless" city / town / village, there is a heavy NPC guard presence in every gathering place that heavily favours common races and will kill Gith or casting magickers on site. The Rinth already exists in a city where all high-traffic gates are heavily guarded. Where's the Mos Eisley of Arm?

The other thing we could look at is ways to ease the burden of staff. If we trust players with karma for races and guilds, why not also give that trust for some of the more straightforward tribes / starting locations that right now require a special app?

If given the choice, I'd rather have more playable race options than less, but it is clear that the staff are correct about the high churn, I've seen it first-hand. Perhaps the ideas above can help expand options for the lone-Gortoks of Arm and allow staff to devote energy to the longer-term tasks of the game at the same time.

[Red Ranger]

The Mos Eisley of Arm is Luir's Outpost.

I'm against re-opening the gith mainly because of the playerbase dilution argument.  From this perspective if the gith are opened (which was ruled out earlier in this thread), then a d-elf clan would have to be closed.  But I happen to like the two open d-elf clans.  Furthermore, if a player currently wants to delve into an isolated and violent Tablelands culture, they can already make a d-elf in one of those two open clans and try to shift the clan's outlook to being more stridently violent through IC means.

More generally, if we players want more "harshness" and "danger" in the wilds, and we prefer to have our PCs die to other PCs rather than to NPCs, I posit that we players have the means necessary to make this happen ourselves.  Make a PC and make it happen.  It won't be easy.  You'll need to do your homework, you'll need to build up your own fighty PC base, you'll need to build up your own political base wherever you call home, you might want to find your own powerful patron, and you'll need some luck.  But it can be done.

Be the change, etc. etc.

Edit: link added.

[Bacon]

D-elf and gith are not the same thing man. It's not that people just wanted to play an isolated tribal role. Some of us want to get the chance to play this completely different one.

I personally -hate- the only d-elf options left available to us. The only ones I liked never got coded and then were made unavailable to play. Since then, I haven't played a d-elf nor do I have any desire to as long as these options are the only ones available to us.

[Delirium]

I agree with Red Ranger.

I also don't understand why y'all can't take no for an answer. The playerbase doesn't need further dilution, and there's plenty of indie options.

If you want to find out about gith culture that bad, then roll up a character with the reason/means to do so...

[Celest]

We do not see a niche for a clan/tribe that focuses on pure violent antagonism being open to the playerbase.

I actually feel like the wilderness is way too safe these days, unless you happen to be a member of one of 3ish clans in a certain region, and they're only really tense with each other. The reason I brought up the RF comparison earlier is because I'm finding myself missing that sort of presence in the wilderness, where there is an organized force dedicated to taking your lunch money, and can find you anywhere in the known. As it is now, I know almost exactly what sort of dangers are going to be in each region so there's no surprise or worry other than not being able to see diagonal directions. The likeliness of any of those 3 aforementioned clans encountering me in say, the salt flats or on the way to Red Storm is pretty much nil, where as the Red Fang would steal your lunch money no matter where you went. In fact, the first time I encountered them was in Red Storm, and they beat up my PCs friend, threatened to rape my PC, smacked her, and then robbed him when he left Storm and left him to die by a beetle.

Gith probably wouldn't really help much in that regard, because they would only PK and not raid really, and maybe the lack of danger is just that I've gotten to know the game better as I play more and have a rough idea of what goes where and how to avoid it, but it feels like that aspect to Armageddon is lacking.

And to be entirely honest, I would not be surprised if the wilderness being so safe also causes a thinning or dilution of the population as people can go virtually anywhere at any time and not worry about being raided or caught. I know there have been nights where 30 people are on, no one is in cities, but when I go into the wilderness I see 4 or 5 different people on their own just hunting and relaxing. So, while the dilution argument is a real concern, I think that the dilution of having the wilderness be such a safe zone from oppressive city PCs (like militias and templars) can be just as harmful to condensing player populations, and I hope that's something that staff is taking into consideration.

Disclaimer: The previous statement is not meant to say "staff is wrong" or "staff should do this anyway" but is merely a personal opinion which the quoted statement made me think about. Please don't hurt me.

I also don't understand why y'all can't take no for an answer.

I don't think that most of the comments in this thread are saying, "You're wrong Staff, you have to do this," or are refusing to acknowledge a no. They're just trying to be helpful and think of ways to make it work. I don't understand why people are so adamant against discussion taking place.

[Bacon]

I don't understand why people are so adamant against discussion taking place.

[Bacon]

I also don't understand this myth of diluting the player base. If I feel like playing that sort of role, I'm going to play one or another. Gith would just be another option for that. If I feel like playing a non-city char, I'm going to play a non-city char.
Just because that option isn't there, doesn't mean I'm going to go: "Well, I can't play that so I'm going to go play a noble/bard/some other city-based role instead." I'll likely go play a magicker, or tribal human, or grebber, etc.
I don't know where people get this idea that: If gith were open people who were going to play in the more concentrated areas will suddenly abandon them. It's a totally silly notion, imo. People will play what they want out of the options available to them, city or non-city as they feel like.

[EldritchOrigins]

Since someone brought up Mos Eisley, I can't help by be reminded of the tusken raiders/sand people of Tattooine when I think about gith.  The purpose of gith are to be generic bad guys (of sorts).  They are a group that -everyone- can be united against.  They can't be generic bad guys if players are playing them.  If players were playing gith, they'd eventually (if not immediately) become an important faction as soon as some leader PC negotiated some kind of treaty with them.  The gith should remain an area that staff have complete control over, and players have little to no influence over.

[Talia]

And to be entirely honest, I would not be surprised if the wilderness being so safe also causes a thinning or dilution of the population as people can go virtually anywhere at any time and not worry about being raided or caught. I know there have been nights where 30 people are on, no one is in cities, but when I go into the wilderness I see 4 or 5 different people on their own just hunting and relaxing. So, while the dilution argument is a real concern, I think that the dilution of having the wilderness be such a safe zone from oppressive city PCs (like militias and templars) can be just as harmful to condensing player populations, and I hope that's something that staff is taking into consideration.

I'm going to dispute your assertion that there is "no one" in the cities when you don't see them. They might not be in taverns; but yes, there are players in the cities as well as in the wilderness. The numbers fluctuate as to who is where, between Allanak and Tuluk and the wilderness and less-popular destinations (Luir's, the Labyrinth, Red Storm), but the playerbase isn't abandoning the cities and fleeing to the wilderness because it's "safe" (since there are no PC raiders...that you know about). (How do I know this? Because I frequently check who is where, because it is interesting to me to watch the patterns of play.)

If we suddenly began to see that "HOLY SHIT THERE IS NO ONE IN ANY CITY ANYWHERE," then yes we would probably investigate why that was. But it's not the case. So we don't need to consider it.

Players will always wander the wilderness, whether this is perceived as "safe from other PCs" or not, because players enjoy this activity. Players are not wandering the wilderness more now in response to "no PC raiders" (which, really, find out IC). They are going to do it anyways; exploration, hunting, and gathering are major activities of the playerbase because players love these activities, not because they're not dangerous (which again, heh, find out IC).

About the general "hey why can't we just discuss this" remarks: It's fine for you to discuss it. As a staffer, I think it's helpful if we tell you that we are not going to do something and why, otherwise it's just wheel-spinning and unproductive activity. We're not trying to extinguish the fires of your roleplay, we're trying to point you in productive directions. Personally, I don't think fantasizing out loud about things that are never going to happen is that helpful to anyone, but you know...go for it, if you want to.

[Nyr]

I don't understand why people are so adamant against discussion taking place.

We appreciate the ideas and suggestions.  We like that players like to pursue things.  Sometimes we agree with those things.  However, we don't agree with this, and we are the staff.  This is not a democracy.  Who else are you trying to convince?  As Talia puts it, go ahead and keep talking about it but it's been made clear over and over (and recently) that we aren't doing this.  Hopefully that is apparent now if it was not before.

[Hot_Dancer]

Ooh, I didn't know Halflings no longer existed.

[Lizzie]

As to the whole "people are wandering because it's safe" - obviously it's not true, since Talia has already informed us of the staff observations.

But even if Talia hadn't said anything...I'd say - meh. Not really. I for one, don't go out -nearly- as often as I usually do with my PCs, *because* I perceive it to be "safe." There's not much thrill in avoiding/killing raptor #972. The excitement wanes, when you've bypassed your 27th duplicate mekillot 2 rooms away from its spawn spot on your way from point A to point B.

I'd love to see more non-npc thrills outside city walls. Random whiran spookiness, the rare pile of ash, a masked highwayman whispering to me from the shadows, demanding my sids or my life...

But no, it's just another carru, or another raptor, or another mekillot, or another gith.

How about, players of the -existing- "potentially deadly and life-threatening" characters come out more and be just a little more visibly deadly and life-threatening. Not "bang, you're dead" but "I need a finger for my latest experiment and you get to be the lucky donor!"

[Nyr]

Moderated a post.  If you have staff criticism over tone (and also have nothing else to contribute to the thread other than that), file a staff complaint.  Do not flame or troll your way onto the GDB about it, please.

edited to clarify that this was in fact trolling rather than concern trolling, and also delved into this other GDB rule regarding flaming (criticism/baiting of staff, rule 1).  My apologies on the mistake there.

[DustMight]

I'm very strongly of the opinion that we do not need more ways for players to isolate themselves from the rest of the playerbase.

QFT!

[Bogre]

The problem I foresee is that raiding to begin with usually turns into PK without good play on the part of BOTH parties. Either a raider is forced to gank or otherwise oblit a potential target because targets autoflee or spam away, or they get brutally hunted down themselves for disrupting the status quo. And it does dilute the playerbase unless another outdoors tribe is closed. Human and elf tribals already struggle with numbers.

Gith would be a fantastic culture to play, but there is essentially no way that they can interact in a non-hostile way to other PC's. Imagine Kuraci- they attack gith that prey upon the roads, so what are they going to have to do when they see a PC gith raiding them? Exactly what they do for an NPC gith. A gith tribe would only work if they were heavily isolated from the rest of the playerbase, and again, that's something that isn't exactly the goal.

However, as player levels rise, perhaps a tribe could be tried, at least for a short-term plot kind of thing.

[Ktavialt]

I got a couple points to add:

(a) The people that want the gith back may like it because of the vicious culture, but also for the overt PC vs. PC violence, and to make the outdoors scary, i.e. put some human intelligence behind some of the desert critters.  If we had some form of overt PC violence going on, presumably like the copper wars (I was a rogue magicker at the time, mostly uninvolved), then maybe it would reduce our want for gith PCs?

(b) At risk of returning to a topic which has been discussed to death in the past and more or less rejected by staff, i.e. adding/changing code that affects raiding... well, yeah, that.  At the present time its immediately butcher/completely incapacitate or else risk auto-flee and a person being 4+ rooms away by the time you recover from attack lag (if you managed to attack in the first place).  The new change to flee adds a little penalty to fleeing from combat, which is helpful but won't completely do it.  The current "reels from the blow" effect also helps a little.  As for new code, a "waylay" style skill which causes you to attack if an opponent tries to leave the room could help.  An in-combat "guard" type skill that simply has a chance to prevent fleeing may help.  Reducing the attack lag could do it.  A setting where you automatically try to chase your fleeing opponent could work.  Basically, anything to make a raider not be penalized for using emote rather than "kill" would do it.

Anyways, I know its been discussed to death re: raiding and so forth.  But, it does relate to the whole "raiders cause our pbase to complain so lets not throw in a race designed specifically to do that" argument.  With some of these changes, it would make a raider-style character more apt to emote and make it more fun.  Also, insert here re: mdesc-concealing objects argument.  On a related note, running/riding fast while hooded should make the hood fall off. "The tall figure in a durrit-hide cloak runs eastwards with weapons in his hands but somehow still manages to keep his hood up."  Wow did I go on a tangent here.

Edit: Lets close d-elves entirely and open gith, practicing skills by clearing out NPC Soh Lanoh Kah elves instead, woohoo

[Booya]

What i'd be more worried about is a gith player getting bored and/or lonely and trying to chat!

While it would be kinda cool to play one, on the flip side I like them being faceless bastards.

[Kronibas]

If gith were reopened, then I think a maximum of three or four players with high karma would make for an interesting experiment.

The last time the gith were open, not just anybody could apply through the standard application process; instead, there was a "call" for them, just as there are frequently calls for gypsies.

Yes, it could be boring and lonesome, but there are players out there who make it a point of pride to do things that most other players aren't willing/capable of pulling off.  Kudos to people who aren't down for anything but city roles with limited traveling, but kudos also to players who never enter city states or otherwise live on the edge, out in the badlands with barely anyone to turn to.

I do not think that a very small PC-based gith clan would be detrimental to the game in any significant manner.  I do think there would probably be violence, but for the most part this violence would be limited to the Pah -- if the gith players are adhering to their clan docs, anyway.  It might cause players who frequently travel heavily gith-infested areas to think twice about the risk they're taking and roleplay accordingly.


And I don't think that looking at, discussing, or tossing around "fantasies" like this is a waste of players' time.  After all, this game is about murder, corruption, betrayal, but it's also about imagination, fantasy, and creativity.  

Players and staff alike taking the initiative to imaginatively explore possibilities of (currently) unplayable races should not, in the humble opinion of just some guy who has played the game for nearly half his life, be discouraged or talked down to.  Creativity, imagination, and outside-of-the-box thinking should be encouraged, but unfortunately the opposite has been true in this thread.

[X-D]

I'm very strongly of the opinion that we do not need more ways for players to isolate themselves from the rest of the playerbase. A gith tribe would have exactly one option for interacting with the playerbase: Violence. So on the one side you end up with boredom (the gith), and on the other side you'd have whining (the rest of the players). Sure, it's plenty cool as a concept, but it's not a formula for fun.

Unless the docs have been drastically changed since I last played a gith, I'd have to say you are wrong. They are technically less violent then even the open delf tribes. They just have a certain culture that looks a certain way to outsiders. But that is no different then how elf culture revers theft while the rest of the world thinks it is a horrible thing.

At least Gith have a mindset that can be understood by others and not totally alien like mantis or nearly alien like halfling.

Gith have been known to trade as well, something stated in the docs to more then one tribe and other places.

I say yes to opening them for at least limited engagement...assuming a staffer could be found willing to oversee them.

I love playing gith culture and mindset even more then I like elf mindset.

As to the whining of the other players, Man, I think the old complaints of unfairness should be updated to include whining and put on the front page of the page in 20 point bold print.

And somebody else said the problem with PC gith is that then, to the rest of the world "the hunt is on" This is true, But I say the answer to that is for staff to make sure that the spots go to those of us who answer with "BRING IT FOOL"



As to player dilution...Oh come on, Like 4-6 players would even be noticed, and the players who would take such roles are likely already playing something mostly isolated from the rest of the playerbase anyway.

And for the record, I also agree, Both the current options for delf blow (IMO).

Oh, and as to raiding....
Some people seem to think that raiding is non-viable because of twinking, spamming etc.

Let me tell you, as the player of a certain VERY well known RF...

Out of the HUNDREDS if not thousands of raids he was involved in, Less then 10 went into spam/twinkness, A full 50% were ran with emotes/say/tell only.

And I have been meaning to just post a MAD MASS kudos to all you player who were raided by or interacted with Lash/Slinks/Howls and crew....Almost all of you rocked, Thanks for playing along and setting awesome believable scenes more then 99% of the time. The playerbase has grown up alot over the years and I was quite impressed with the caliber of players during my year++ with him.

[gfair]

To the Staff I would say that the reason there is discussion about this issue is because the staff consensus has not always been "closed" with regards to the Gith option. Before something is done, there is usually talk of doing it, this is simply one of the low-level wishlists of some Arm players that comes up from time to time. Switch the Gith with any other closed clan, I'm sure the same discussion comes up. BTW how about ATV? *ducks*

I also really like the idea of trying to step things up through IC means with some of the other desert tribes, trying to create more aggression. But hasn't the staff stomped on even modest levels of raiding ever since Blackwing? That's the impression I get, though it's not based on first-hand knowledge.

[Kronibas]

At least Gith have a mindset that can be understood by others and not totally alien like mantis or nearly alien like halfling.

You know, I had never thought about it like that, but yes -- gith actually do seem more humanesque than halflings.

Moreover, halflings were brought back into the fold despite the fact that they, well, were arguably as PK-oriented as gith.  Not only did they kill you, but also they ate you. Enter the woods, and you're a halfling's prey.  Enter the lower Pah, and you're a gith's prey.  There isn't too much of a difference between the two; furthermore, I argue that gith would be a lot easier for players to groove into than halflings.

[Nyr]

To the Staff I would say that the reason there is discussion about this issue is because the staff consensus has not always been "closed" with regards to the Gith option. Before something is done, there is usually talk of doing it, this is simply one of the low-level wishlists of some Arm players that comes up from time to time.

It came up a month and a half ago.  Stuff may recycle on the GDB on a regular basis, and things can/have/do change--but the recent answer was "no."

I also really like the idea of trying to step things up through IC means with some of the other desert tribes, trying to create more aggression.

I like this too.

But hasn't the staff stomped on even modest levels of raiding ever since Blackwing?

I like raiding, and promoting well-done raiding is something I think is pretty important.  I don't think that we have stomped down on raiding, though.

[Jeshin]

Players have stomped out raiding and the staff has accomadated IC actions

[HavokBlue]

Players get buttmangled when raiding happens. In my experience, Nyr and the other staffers have been pretty cool and supportive of it as long as you aren't doing things your PC shouldn't be.

[Gunnerblaster]

Personally, I wouldn't care to play a Gith but what I would like is to have more history on the gith, just out of curiosity.

I suppose when ARM 2.0 comes out and races, such as the gith, are (assumed) wiped out, we'll have access to their histories, etc.

[X-D]

Quote
But hasn't the staff stomped on even modest levels of raiding ever since Blackwing?

I like raiding, and promoting well-done raiding is something I think is pretty important.  I don't think that we have stomped down on raiding, though.

This is a key point at least as I see it.

Staff, and that includes Nyr...or even mostly Nyr,   Have been, in my experience VERY supportive in the cases of "well done raiding" Sadly, Well played and well controled raiders are very rare...as has been pointed out by at least one other player. A raiding group tends to only be as good as the leader, and when that leader dies or otherwise quits...things tend to downhill very quickly, often forcing staff to step in. As happened with Blackmoon, I believe Dunestalkers and Red fangs.

The only staff falling down on these matters as I see it, is not installing a new leader in these clans that can do the work. Which tends to look, to the players, like staff NOT liking or wanting such things to begin with.

Sadly, none of the currently open tribes have the docs to make them capable as raiders...So, without them getting changed or ones opening that have that capability, It is unlikely you can do the below quote.

Quote
I also really like the idea of trying to step things up through IC means with some of the other desert tribes, trying to create more aggression.

Which is why opening Gith would be a good idea IMO, there is nothing stopping gith from raiding instead of killing, in FACT, it would be inside the gith culture and mindset to do so. The players, other then a very few of us have never seen PC gith and so have only experienced NPC actions, and those do not reflect the culture in the least, NPCs being rather dumb and very limited.

As to the above quote and Nyr's response of agreement, I wonder how you would do so, None of the currently open tribes are capable and quite precluded by the docs of those tribes, all would require what amount to rather large changes that would basically make them new tribes.

Remember, Good and effective raiding requires 3 things, Ability to target anywhere in the world, Mobility of home base, ability to never have to enter a city-state.

[gfair]

I don't think that we have stomped down on raiding, though.

*licks his lips and starts writing*...

[Nyr]

As to the above quote and Nyr's response of agreement, I wonder how you would do so, None of the currently open tribes are capable and quite precluded by the docs of those tribes, all would require what amount to rather large changes that would basically make them new tribes.

If you're actually interested, create a character and find out.

Remember, Good and effective raiding requires 3 things, Ability to target anywhere in the world, Mobility of home base, ability to never have to enter a city-state.

Good and effective raiding requires three things.

1.  Don't piss all of the people in the Known World at the same time.
2.  Don't piss off the wrong people in the Known World.
3.  If #2 happens, rectify it.

I'm locking the thread now because this isn't the place to bash clans.  Opinions on how current clans are administrated/documented/etc. are noted, but not welcome in this venue, particularly since they can't be responded to with any degree of elaboration.  You should know better than to do that.  You can do that on your own time in the request tool.