Discussion thread - Extended Subguilds

[Nyr]

The process for this is not automated. It will require submitting the special application for approval, which may take up to a week to be processed.

[Cind]

At this point you may apply for one of the following:

a special application that is NOT an extended subguild
a special application that is ONLY for an extended subguild as proscribed by this initiative
a special application that is ONLY for skill boosts as proscribed by this initiative

Anything that is a mix of the above likely will be denied.

A subguild providing it, with the necessary other subguild treats that would prompt more people to take it, would kick ass.

Yeah, it would be great if we had created an extended subguild with cavilish... 

My brain exploded. There are no words to describe how I feel right now.

[gfair]

Sorry for the question if this is redundant:

Rangers have some fighting skill, though they are not as renowned as true warriors. How do aggressors fare as far as their reputation for fighting prowess?

[Gunnerblaster]

Sorry for the question if this is redundant:

Rangers have some fighting skill, though they are not as renowned as true warriors. How do aggressors fare as far as their reputation for fighting prowess?

I would assume they are perhaps equal to or slightly lesser than a Ranger's full potential. I would imagine they wouldn't want the subguilds, even if Ext.Subguilds to be too powerful.

The allure of an Ext.Subguild_Aggressor isn't in the sheer potential of their skill, but what skills they bring to the table, in a fight.

[Twilight]

Reading the descriptions, I sort of assumed an aggressor got offense skills to a good level, lets say advanced or even master.  But they got no defensive skills.

Opposite for protector.

Thus preserving the true fighting guilds as the only ones to possess both decent-ish fighting -and- defensive capabilities.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'm not understanding why you guys think they get anything more than just skills.

[Synthesis]

I'm not understanding why you guys think they get anything more than just skills.

Skills are nice, but it's really the skill caps that matter.

[Heade]

Sorry for the question if this is redundant:

Rangers have some fighting skill, though they are not as renowned as true warriors. How do aggressors fare as far as their reputation for fighting prowess?

Based on the cost, and the fact that other extended subguilds get their selected area set to a "master" level, I sort of assumed that the warrior guild was split in two, giving their offensive skills and caps to aggressor, and their defensive skills and caps to defender. The entire point of the extended subguilds is to be able to excel in them beyond the skill caps of standard subguilds, from my understanding.

[Old Kank]

I've been chewing on this for a few weeks, and I can't help but think the extended subguilds really skew heavily in favor of the warrior class.  I know that each class combination has its own merits and weaknesses, but in a practical sense it seems like warrior trumps all other mundane classes now.

A warrior-outdoorsman will have more short- and mid-term survivability and general toughness than a ranger-aggressor/ranger-protector, as well as being able to do most of what a ranger can do.  Things may start to even out in the long-run, and the usefulness and consistency of the ranger's additional skills may become more prominent, but I'm not sure that outweighs the starting bonus provided by the warrior's base skills.

It seems like the same thing could be said of the stealth/thief subguilds as well.

[Bacon]

Nah, I see some of those as being really badass additions for the ranger guild as well. Or the merchant guild, or the assassin guild. I think they help out several of the guilds pretty equally.

[brytta.leofa]

A ranger with backstab, or a magicker with hide...adds a new level of scary.

[Twilight]

Someone lend me some karma so I can app a Half giant vivaduan aggressor.

Sure, some people might try some sort of min/max, but I'm willing to trust in y'all.

[RogueGunslinger]

A ranger with backstab, or a magicker with hide...adds a new level of scary.

Ranger bashing from hidden place, then launching a disarm...

Mmmmm.

[MeTekillot]

warrior slipknife




warrior slipknife man

[Old Kank]

warrior slipknife

^^^

Warrior slipknife is much more frightening than rangers with bash or backstab, 'cause a warrior can still kick your ass after the backstab fails to do more than 20 damage or the bash misses.

[Bacon]

Ranger can see warrior/slipknife coming.

[Hot_Dancer]

Slipknife states that their backstab doesn't go as high as an assassin's.
Outdoorsman's archery doesn't go as high as a ranger's.

Both tools really only get nasty at the highest end of the spectrum.

Looks like these extended subguilds will give you enough of the skills
to enjoy them but not dominate as you could with a class that boasts
the skill primary.

I don't know about the magicker subguilds, but I don't see a warrior
matching up with an assassin or ranger classed PC regardless of
subguild setup in the PK game. They can certainly make warriors feel
less vanilla to play though.

[janeshephard]

Looks like these extended subguilds will give you enough of the skills
to enjoy them but not dominate as you could with a class that boasts
the skill primary.

I think the point is to roleplay and not necessarily unbalance things too much for karma endowed players.

[Hot_Dancer]

Oh, I agree completely and endorse the usage.

I havn't been through the whole thread, just kind of knocking down the concept that any of
these extended subguilds are particularly unbalancing in my opinion or even as codedly useful
as people may fear.

[Dalmeth]

Yeah, most skills are only 100% reliable at the extreme higher range of rating.  Giving people a low-cap skill in any one area isn't likely to be too dramatic.  That's why magickers are a little wonky.  They essentially get a plethora of limited-use skills that they can train to maximum reliability.

[brytta.leofa]

Giving people a low-cap skill in any one area isn't likely to be too dramatic.

I haven't yet found out OOC by playing one, but "adept at" surely sounds like "master."

[Dalmeth]

I haven't yet found out OOC by playing one, but "adept at" surely sounds like "master."

Perhaps.  I'll play one and let you know what I think.

[Hot_Dancer]

I think some Soh friendly staff-member came up with the extended guilds. It must be.

Master Crafter Extended Guilds allow Soh to craft and create custom/mastercraft items without being merchant classed! (Tough to play a merchant in a clan that doesn't travel much)

[number13]

rant mode on:

For the second time, I've seen the rules retroactively change in response to a character I've attempted to propose with skill bumps.  Maybe I'm the only person who has even tried apping for a skill bump.  Maybe staff thinks that I in particular will twink out and PK the entire pbase if I start with an early bonus in a certain skill.  I don't know, but regardless, it's disheartening.

I'm really, really, really not interested in part of the game that occurs between days 0 and 5.  I've done that already, too many times.  A skill bump system that would work for me would allow me to skip that experience and get right into what I consider "the fun bits". That means, a reasonable score in a selection of quality of life skills (like contact, ride, maybe climb/first tier crafting skill/listen/sneak) and a reasonable score on a do-something-interesting skill (like a combat skill, steal, second tier crafting skill, maybe a second tier spell pre-branched.)

As it stands, the current skill bump system doesn't begin to scratch that itch.  It would feel like a waste to spend points into something that's easily trained but annoying to deal with at lower levels (like contact or spells).  Dumping all points into a single interesting skill ends with a request to revise the application into a form that would still require grinding before the actual fun stuff begins. Really, the only sane use of the skill bumps is to start with a weapon skill at higher level, plus an extra point placed into a combat style (like two-handed).  And it's probably nice for that, but at this stage, uninteresting to me.

Thanks for the effort put into this, but it doesn't work for me. It's just after 70+ characters, I can't do the early bits anymore.   

[Adhira]

The Extended subguilds and skill bumps are in trial phase.  This means that things can and will change throughout the process.  We're taking feedback, we're looking at balance and seeing how things are used.  It's only fair to the playerbase as a whole that we make sure this system works in a way that benefits not just the individual but the game world as a whole.  I'm sorry if you are feeling that we're moving the goalpost in such a way that it's detrimental to you but any changes made to the system are not made because of one individual, there is no targetting of an individual etc etc etc.