Please use this thread to address all your feedback and questions regarding the new Extended Subguilds. Please keep the conversation civil.
OMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMG
SQUUUEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Woooohooo
OMG OMG OMG OMG!
But what will they be?
They're in the helpfiles
I hope something I can finally pick something interesting from.
At creation I choose the worst subguild possible cause of my newbiness :/
http://www.armageddon.org/help/index_frames.html (http://www.armageddon.org/help/index_frames.html)
Cool
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on January 02, 2012, 08:18:23 PM
http://www.armageddon.org/help/index_frames.html (http://www.armageddon.org/help/index_frames.html)
Is the site down?
I hate to be a party pooper, but I've already noticed more than a few typos, grammar errors, and formatting issues.
Look like the helpfiles aren't fully linked yet. But it wasn't down for me... But there also wasn't anything in there except "enchantment magick" so you're not missing too much.
Could be the game is restating and the site is linked to the game.
Actually enchantment magick is SO BADASS.....
Quote from: Xagon on January 02, 2012, 08:20:03 PM
I hate to be a party pooper, but I've already noticed more than a few typos, grammar errors, and formatting issues.
Please post them in here so we can fix them!
WTF? Sorceror subguilds?!? :o
Gah... helpfiles loading so slowly... MUST READ ALL THE SUBGUILDS!
hrm... now I gotta find out as a newb wtf a CGP is and how to obtain these...
Quote from: Marauder Moe on January 02, 2012, 08:25:33 PM
Gah... helpfiles loading so slowly... MUST READ ALL THE SUBGUILDS!
Oh
Emm
Gee!
Under what topic is this under?
A little worried about additonal magick subguilds, but I guess we'll see how it works out.
Quote from: Barsook on January 02, 2012, 08:28:27 PM
Under what topic is this under?
Nevermind, found them.
Quote from: Rathustra on January 02, 2012, 08:25:11 PM
Please post them in here so we can fix them!
To begin with, the helpfile hasn't linked to the appropriate subguilds, even though they exist
http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?subguild_rogue
http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?subguild_cutpurse
http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?subguild_aggressor
http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?subguild_outdoorsman
http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?subguild_grebber
http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?subguild_slipknife
http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?subguild_protector
http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?subguild_movement_magick
http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?subguild_combat_magick
http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?subg_Enlightenment_Magick
Also, you misspelled Wizardry in the enchantment_magick subguild.
(Edited for more links for the masses!)
Oh god... I so know what my next character is going to be.
Will elementalists be able to take the sorcery subguilds?
Are these available only to new PCs and if so, any plans on letting current PCs add them?
Formatting issues are tricky right now, they should display correctly in game, but the web editor needs some work. Typos etc are appreciated though.
You can't use "help subg rogue" to pull up the rogue helpfile. You have to do "help subguild rogue"
Most of them work the same way
Also that's awesome
So <blank> guilds that don't get subguild choices - will they have the option to pick extended subguilds or are they out of this?
Quote from: ShaLeah on January 02, 2012, 08:32:25 PM
Are these available only to new PCs and if so, any plans on letting current PCs add them?
Only new PCs.
SubG Enlightenment Magick (Character)
While not a true magick wielder in the way of a Sorceror those who have an affinity for the magick of Movement possess the ability to manipulate energy in a way that can only be termed wizadry.
Those skilled with the magick of Enlightenment are masters at uncovering information. Their abilities allow them to both detect those who are unseen as well as take similar cover themselves. They develop an affinity for languages and can master the art of using Drov's shadows to cover their presence.
All who demonstrate knowledge or use of wizardry are typically killed at the earliest opportunity. Being powerful in the way of psionics, High Templars and the Kings themselves can easily sense a sorcerer's presence if said sorcerers do not properly shield their minds at all times.
Sorcerers do not 'automatically' gain energy to cast their spells as elementalists can. They must instead gather it from sources of life.
Notes:
The Enlightenment Magick subguild has a cost of 4 CGP.
See also:
guilds, subguilds, extended_subguilds, karma, sorcerer
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, what I'm seing here is that I could be say... A warrior with this subguild, and I would be a sorcerer as well.
Correct?
These are not retrospective. They will only be available to new pcs, via special application. I'll be posting those details in the Staff Announcement thread as soon as we're ready to go.
There may be some limitations on which guilds can choose subguilds, these are still to be decided. During our initial trial the magick subguilds will not be available, these will be released at a later date.
http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?subg_Enlightenment_Magick
is the only magick subguild helpfile where you need subg_.... not subguild_....
Semantics.
Let's go down to the silt sea or the shield wall and watch the twinks run like lemmings to their deaths.
It's only those with titles that are too long that have subg and not subguild and those are listed in the note field of the extended subguilds helpfile.
Quote from: Adhira on January 02, 2012, 08:35:53 PM
They will only be available to new pcs, via special application.
Based on what Morg posted back in the fall, it sounded like these were just going to be handled through char gen.
Has that been changed, or is the special app process just a transitional phase?
Skip magic, I want to talk crafting.
Question 1: What's the difference between master and regular crafting subguilds?
Question 2: What does this mean for the Merchant guild?
The character generation code is complicated. It is not ready. We're going to trial this via special application. This means we can do these now and we can also see how they are working out and make changes as necessary.
Quote from: Adhira on January 02, 2012, 08:40:46 PM
It's only those with titles that are too long that have subg and not subguild and those are listed in the note field of the extended subguilds helpfile.
Doh! I misread. Thanks.
Quote from: Fredd on January 02, 2012, 08:35:47 PM
SubG Enlightenment Magick (Character)
While not a true magick wielder in the way of a Sorceror those who have an affinity for the magick of Movement possess the ability to manipulate energy in a way that can only be termed wizadry.
Those skilled with the magick of Enlightenment are masters at uncovering information. Their abilities allow them to both detect those who are unseen as well as take similar cover themselves. They develop an affinity for languages and can master the art of using Drov's shadows to cover their presence.
All who demonstrate knowledge or use of wizardry are typically killed at the earliest opportunity. Being powerful in the way of psionics, High Templars and the Kings themselves can easily sense a sorcerer's presence if said sorcerers do not properly shield their minds at all times.
Sorcerers do not 'automatically' gain energy to cast their spells as elementalists can. They must instead gather it from sources of life.
Notes:
The Enlightenment Magick subguild has a cost of 4 CGP.
See also:
guilds, subguilds, extended_subguilds, karma, sorcerer
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, what I'm seing here is that I could be say... A warrior with this subguild, and I would be a sorcerer as well.
Correct?
Nopers. I'll embiggen it for emphasis:
QuoteWhile not a true magick wielder in the way of a Sorceror those who have an affinity for the magick of Movement possess the ability to manipulate energy in a way that can only be termed wizardry.
For all intents and purposes, you might be treated the same by the powers that be/anyone else as any sorcerer, but you would not actually have a subguild that gave you
all of the powers of a sorcerer--just enough to be dangerous.
For anyone who may have missed the previous announcement about extended subguilds along with other changes and what CGP means etc:
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,41934.0.html
And the discussions:
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,42351.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,41959.0.html
Quote from: My 2 sids on January 02, 2012, 08:42:03 PM
Skip magic, I want to talk crafting.
Question 1: What's the difference between master and regular crafting subguilds?
Master-crafting subguilds can master craft something without being a merchant.
Quote
Question 2: What does this mean for the Merchant guild?
It means that merchant guilded PCs will have a leg up on the whole "mastercrafting everything that can be crafted" front, and can still use space in their subguild for one of the other extended subguilds if they would like to do so.
Quote from: Kassindra on January 02, 2012, 08:44:26 PM
For anyone who may have missed the previous announcement about extended subguilds along with other changes and what CGP means etc:
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,41934.0.html
And the discussions:
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,42351.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,41959.0.html
Thanks for digging these up! I suggest giving them a read, anyone who's curious, there's some good info in here.
I for one, welcome our new subguild using overlords. I shall bake them cookies in hopes I am spared their wrath.
Subguild_aggressor: "favouring" and "manouvres" should be "favoring" and "maneuvers"
Subguild Protector:
"They are able to fend off enemy blows, and to guard others from harm, and can become experts in the defensive use of a shield."
Unnecessary comma between "blows" and "and", resulting in a strange sentence.
I personally would have written a few of the descriptions a bit differently, but that's not to say that I don't appreciate them. Thanks for taking the time to improve Arm :)
EDIT:
Additionally, all of the magick subguilds have wizardry misspelled, save enchantment. They're all of a different format as well, in regards to spacing between paragraphs and the "See also" at the bottom.
Sooooo excited for all of these.
Less excited if we'll need to go through the spec app process to give them a try, but meh, I'm glad to see them either way.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on January 02, 2012, 08:32:17 PM
Will elementalists be able to take the sorcery subguilds?
I hope so. It'd be pretty neat to have the
occasional gemmer who delves into the more forbidden forms of magick.
Which of the new subguilds are currently available without special apps?
E:
QuoteBOB ZILLA OF MARS ()
Extended subguilds have higher caps than normal subguild options. The subguilds are designed to increase the lifestyle and playability options available to a character. Extended subguilds cost Character Generation Points (CGP) and must be one of the follow thewnty asdf
???
Quote from: Xagon on January 02, 2012, 08:50:14 PM
I personally would have written a few of the descriptions a bit differently, but that's not to say that I don't appreciate them. Thanks for taking the time to improve Arm :)
Well...now you
are being a party pooper. Writing styles really are not open for discussion here.
The extended subguilds are just British. Long live grey!
I'm a little nervous about the idea that everyone can app a main guild and subguild themselves 1 of the 4 sorcerous paths of magick :-\
But ... as has been said ... we'll see how it works out.
Quote from: Yam on January 02, 2012, 09:00:53 PM
The extended subguilds are just British. Long live grey!
Oi!
Quote from: musashi on January 02, 2012, 09:01:05 PM
I'm a little nervous about the idea that everyone can app a main guild and subguild themselves 1 of the 4 sorcerous paths of magick :-\
But ... as has been said ... we'll see how it works out.
I may be misunderstanding it, but I don't think everyone can app a sorcerer subguild. It takes 4-5 karma to be able to access those subguilds.
Quote from: musashi on January 02, 2012, 09:01:05 PM
I'm a little nervous about the idea that everyone can app a main guild and subguild themselves 1 of the 4 sorcerous paths of magick :-\
But ... as has been said ... we'll see how it works out.
Haha, makes me nervous too, considering how magick is powerful but it's also intriguing as well and I'm sure staff will watch the players and hopefully if they have the CGP and Karma for such things, that means they won't be too irresponsible. *crosses fingers*
I like this if, for no other reason, it makes true guild sniffing near impossible, and can actually cause people to have pause as to whether or not XYZ Joe Schmo warrior is a secret magicker.
Quote from: Yam on January 02, 2012, 09:00:53 PM
The extended subguilds are just British. Long live grey!
I suffer no end of barbs for spelling differently (some might say more correctly).
Query: Is there some sort of event or change to the world that will explain these new subguilds or are we retroactively pretending that they've existed all along, in the case of NPCs and stuff?
Quote from: Rathustra on January 02, 2012, 09:05:17 PM
Quote from: Yam on January 02, 2012, 09:00:53 PM
The extended subguilds are just British. Long live grey!
I suffer no end of barbs for spelling differently (some might say more correctly).
MORE WRONGER
A few of us wrote these helpfiles. Some of us are more correct than others!
Yeah, it's really too early to tell. I'm just thinking, if the subguild is giving them the entire skill tree of a sorcerer for that one specific path of magick ... that might be a bit ... much :-\
If it's a limited version of said skill tree ... well, then the help file on sorcerers might actually, finally, be telling the truth.
Quote from: Sorcerer Help FileTrue magick, as sorcery is sometimes known, is strictly outlawed in all the Known World, and has been even since the days of the Empire of Man. Some few people still strive to learn a spell or two, always hiding their ability. However, there are still some others who dedicate their lives to the pursuit of magick. These individuals are called sorcerers (the term 'mage' has always been used in a general sense, to refer to anyone who possesses magickal ability).
Prior to this ... heh, no one strived to learn just a spell or two. You were all in or nothing.
Anybody who actually uses those magick subguilds is setting themselves up for massive boredom and/or failure. Hope you enjoy solo-RP and dodging bounty hunters.
I'd be interested to know...
if someone does -not- have even enough karma to normal app a rukkian or vivaduan - which is pretty low karma on the scale..and supposedly granted by being trustworthy to play the role...
then will they be able to "normal" app one of these sorcerous subguilds, that include spells that you normally need twice as much karma to cast, if you were relying on karma and not the GPS whatevers?
In other words...
I got just desert elf karma, so that's the best I can do without special apping. I'm not trustworthy enough to play a higher karma thing without special apping.
And yet - because I was consistent in my character reports, and did this or that...I can now play an assassin guild and subguild the some spells that would normally come with a karma class I'm not allowed to play? I mean - I couldn't even special app a drovian if I only have desert elf karma. And yet I can play a subguild with drovian spells in it?
Am I understanding that right? Cause I really can't see the logic in that.
I don't think you're understanding that right. I think the karma minimum to play those sorcerous subguilds is up in the 4-5 karma range.
EDIT: I just looked at the help files. I don't think ... I know. 4-5.
The Gicker Subguilds are from the Sorc tree, as far as I can tell, not the lesser Magick guilds.
I thought those were the GPS things, not karma. Those are two different things, no? GSPs are like roleplay points in other games..that you spend. Karma is karma, which you earn, and continue to have, or earn back..or...shit. It's all too complicated. Just let me know when I have whiran karma okay? Really. All these different points and spending and time windows and earning back is just too much work. I DO NOT DO MATH OKAY?
Is the 3-special-apps-per-year limit going to be enforced for applications that are just guild/extended subguild?
As I recall: you have as many chargen points as you have karma. I think that when you pick a karma race/guild, you get its karma amount deducted from your chargen points. Chargen points regenerate at X rate per Y time -- I think it was one a month.
Quote from: musashi on January 02, 2012, 09:12:26 PM
I don't think you're understanding that right. I think the karma minimum to play those sorcerous subguilds is up in the 4-5 karma range.
EDIT: I just looked at the help files. I don't think ... I know. 4-5.
But you can special-app up to 3 karma above your base. So if you have 1 karma, you can presumably (in the future--maybe not right now) special-app for one of the 4-karma subs. My understanding of it all from past discussions is that karma = max CGP, and current CGP = (max CGP - used CGP + regenerated CGP).
So I presume that it's possible to go up to -3 CGP in the special-app case, or maybe that's just something the staff will have to handle manually as part of the special-app process.
Quote from: Delusion on January 02, 2012, 09:20:26 PM
As I recall: you have as many chargen points as you have karma. I think that when you pick a karma race/guild, you get its karma amount deducted from your chargen points. Chargen points regenerate at X rate per Y time -- I think it was one a month.
This is correct.
Who wants to take bets on the number of storage request resolved this week and next?
j/k
Also... will elementalists be able to take take the paths of magick subguilds?
Quote from: Synthesis on January 02, 2012, 09:08:25 PM
Anybody who actually uses those magick subguilds is setting themselves up for massive boredom and/or failure. Hope you enjoy solo-RP and dodging bounty hunters.
I'm rather excited that they're sorcerous paths though, maybe folks will really start trying to treat sorcs correctly.. by burning them alive.
Yeah Lizzie, your karma rating is what determines the maximum amount of CGP's you have to spend. So unless you're putting in a special app, you can't have more CGP's than you have karma ... hence ... no ... you cannot app a 4 CGP cost subguild, without first having either 4 karma ... or 1 karma + a special app to get the other 3 points you need for this one character application.
Quote from: musashi on January 02, 2012, 09:01:05 PM
I'm a little nervous about the idea that everyone can app a main guild and subguild themselves 1 of the 4 sorcerous paths of magick :-\
But ... as has been said ... we'll see how it works out.
I think the benefits and the costs of this are pretty balanced. If you take one of those subguilds, for all IC intents and purposes, you have some magickal power, but you're still a vile sorcerer that must be slain. I think the kind of people that can't handle the isolation of a sorcerer will favor one of the other subguilds (of which there is a pretty wide variety!).
Yes. The 3 special apps per year is still in place, even if special apping for these subguilds/skill bumps. While this process is in the special app trial phase your karma points will not be deducted, so this is a trade off.
I hope the benefits and costs of this are pretty balanced. Just too early to tell I think.
Sorcerers get A LOT of magick out of a single path.
I'm a little nervous about how much milage the subguilds will get out of the same path. I hope it's less than a full on sorcerer gets. But until I see it in game, can't really say anything else about it.
I only saw like 4 spells for those sorcerer subguilds. Not a whole path. But maybe that is a path? Never played a sorc.
Quote from: musashi on January 02, 2012, 09:34:45 PM
I hope the benefits and costs of this are pretty balanced. Just too early to tell I think.
Sorcerers get A LOT of magick out of a single path.
I'm a little nervous about how much milage the subguilds will get out of the same path. I hope it's less than a full on sorcerer gets. But until I see it in game, can't really say anything else about it.
It had better be pretty awesome, actually, seeing as the entire game is going to be after your ass like it was gold-plated.
I only have 1 karma. So y'all are safe ... for now.
PS - this stuff looks great, guys! What a way to give new breath to the game. I'm excited for these changes, people worried of 'twinks' or not. I know I'm not. It'll be delightful to see a smattering of magick available at lower karma levels and what have you.
Now, people, don't fuck up that trust!! >:( >:( >:(
When you look at the help files on the paths of magick (not the subguilds just the paths themselves) it tells you the 1 spell they open up with, but naturally ... you would fully expect that a sorcerer would branch more spells from that starting spell. So for a sorcerer, each path of magick ... is like a skill tree to be branched up.
I'm just a little apprehensive about how much of that skill tree branches up for these subguilds.
Having a bunch of people running around who are guild_rangers/warriors and also fully 1/4 sorcerers ... miiiiight be a bit much; in my completely uninformed off the cuff personal gut feeling of an opinion.
Please stop discussing the intricacies of other guilds.
Magick subguilds are still just that. They are subguilds, they are not equivalent in any way to a true guild.
As stated the magick subguilds WILL NOT be in play at the beginning of this trial. They may be introduced later.
I think the key point is that there -aren't- going to be very many of those PCs running around.
I mean, there are probably plenty of folks with the karma to play muls, but the role itself is so lame most of the time that you rarely see one in game outside of House Kurac.
Quote from: Adhira on January 02, 2012, 09:42:19 PM
Please stop discussing the intricacies of other guilds.
Magick subguilds are still just that. They are subguilds, they are not equivalent in any way to a true guild.
As stated the magick subguilds WILL NOT be in play at the beginning of this trial. They may be introduced later.
Whew.
So, I know there's an answer to this somewhere, but I can't find it.
I'm a ranger, and I pick rogue as an extended subguild. Do I have a version of city sneak that improves on its own?
I doubt any dual magicker class be permitted. A krathi that can hide is scary enough.
Any plans for allowing psionic related subguilds?
At this point we have no plans for additional subguilds.
I wonder how many accidental deaths are going to happen today thanks to this change.
ranger/aggressor
warrior now obsolete
Quote from: MeTekillot on January 02, 2012, 10:54:06 PM
ranger/aggressor
warrior now obsolete
Heh, I was actually thinking more along the lines of Warrior/Outdoorsman having that effect on Ranger :)
I really doubt they're going to let you skill up your ranger-type skills as much as a ranger when you're not playing a ranger. It'll probably be just enough to get your ass in trouble.
We'll see!
Quote from: Jeshin on January 02, 2012, 09:06:45 PM
Query: Is there some sort of event or change to the world that will explain these new subguilds or are we retroactively pretending that they've existed all along, in the case of NPCs and stuff?
It would be awesome if there was something IC that happens to explain the new magick subguilds when they are implemented. *hint hint* ;D
These aren't IC in any way so no, nothing will be reflected in game.
Yeah... there aren't discrete guilds in game. Some people know sorcery. Some people are good at other shit and know some sorcery to boot.
These are very, very, very awesome.
Two questions:
(1) Subguild component crafting? I'm assuming "no," or possibly "make one and find out."
(2) Subguild wilderness quit? For outdoorsmen?
1) Find out IC :)
2) No wilderness quit, sorry.
Ranger/protector.
Ranger/slipknife.
ALLLLL THE SKILLS
I would love to give the skill bumps a go during this trial. Unfortunately, I had a specapp burned recently, which means I'm in the waiting period. What timing, eh? :(
Hope it all works out well. The new subguild choices sound interesting.
Quote from: Nyr on January 03, 2012, 01:07:13 AM
We're not going to give warriors backstab, by the way. I think it's kinda obvious we wouldn't, but just to be clear, we are not going to do that at all.
warrior/slipknife
also i linked to the original post but i could not right the date.
I haven't had a chance to read the thread yet, and it might have been said before but... I was hoping a lot of these new options would make it so that magick characters could actually masquerade as something other than magickers without being guild sniffed and shit right off the bat. But the point costs pretty much prohibit that except for anyone who has high karma level already. As it stands, it seems to me that a lot of these options just mean people with 4 or less karma who want to take advantage of them are limited to either spec-apping... which they could kind of do already, or using them with mundane main guilds, thus doing nothing but creating characters who are good at everything.
Am I missing the point of the new guilds or is this the intention?
Quote from: HavokBlue on January 03, 2012, 02:07:07 AM
I haven't had a chance to read the thread yet, and it might have been said before but... I was hoping a lot of these new options would make it so that magick characters could actually masquerade as something other than magickers without being guild sniffed and shit right off the bat. But the point costs pretty much prohibit that except for anyone who has high karma level already. As it stands, it seems to me that a lot of these options just mean people with 4 or less karma who want to take advantage of them are limited to either spec-apping... which they could kind of do already, or using them with mundane main guilds, thus doing nothing but creating characters who are good at everything.
Am I missing the point of the new guilds or is this the intention?
Magick guilds aren't available until 2 karma-- meaning you'll have two karma-points to spend by the time you get there.
Quote from: path on January 02, 2012, 08:37:54 PM
Let's go down to the silt sea or the shield wall and watch the twinks run like lemmings to their deaths.
Lemings don't actually do that.
Right, which means if I want to play... let's say a Vivaduan/Protector who's a Bynner and doesn't know he's a magicker. That would actually require five karma, if I'm not mistaken. The cheapest combination I'm seeing is 4 CGP, but at severely limited choices.
The new choices are cool and all, and I'm glad staff spent the time to work them out but... I was just hoping they'd expand the options for people at the lower end of the karmic scale without requiring spec apps.
Yeah, you are indeed not mistaken. It will likely make spec-apping an easier process, though.
I hope I have some time to set aside to play soon, I'd like to see this all in game whether I take advantage of it or not.
Quote from: HavokBlue on January 03, 2012, 02:28:08 AM
Right, which means if I want to play... let's say a Vivaduan/Protector who's a Bynner and doesn't know he's a magicker. That would actually require five karma, if I'm not mistaken. The cheapest combination I'm seeing is 4 CGP, but at severely limited choices.
The new choices are cool and all, and I'm glad staff spent the time to work them out but... I was just hoping they'd expand the options for people at the lower end of the karmic scale without requiring spec apps.
Orite.... Forgot using karma main guilds would cost too. x-X
Gotta ask, will the protector subguild come with a weapon skill? It seems to be the one thing missing from the description.
I think it's a step in the right direction, especially when GCP(?) are implemented. No more spamming magicker characters every time you die, but more importantly, it should help to combat guild sniffing and give people more flexibility with their character concepts. You can bet my next PC will be a special app!
Quote from: Aaron Goulet on January 03, 2012, 03:56:21 AM
I think it's a step in the right direction, especially when GCP(?) are implemented. No more spamming magicker characters every time you die, but more importantly, it should help to combat guild sniffing and give people more flexibility with their character concepts. You can bet my next PC will be a special app!
But it only helps with guild sniffing if you have a lot of karma, or are playing a mundane class already.
Really...these kinda things look really cool. I really can't give any sort of real criticism, though, until I see how the majority of -players- use them. So here in a couple months I may rant, or I may say major kudos. :P
Quote from: HavokBlue on January 03, 2012, 04:02:58 AM
Quote from: Aaron Goulet on January 03, 2012, 03:56:21 AM
I think it's a step in the right direction, especially when GCP(?) are implemented. No more spamming magicker characters every time you die, but more importantly, it should help to combat guild sniffing and give people more flexibility with their character concepts. You can bet my next PC will be a special app!
But it only helps with guild sniffing if you have a lot of karma, or are playing a mundane class already.
There are still some mundane classes (e.g. sneaky types) who might wish to avoid being guild sniffed.
Quote from: HavokBlue on January 03, 2012, 04:02:58 AM
Quote from: Aaron Goulet on January 03, 2012, 03:56:21 AM
I think it's a step in the right direction, especially when GCP(?) are implemented. No more spamming magicker characters every time you die, but more importantly, it should help to combat guild sniffing and give people more flexibility with their character concepts. You can bet my next PC will be a special app!
But it only helps with guild sniffing if you have a lot of karma, or are playing a mundane class already.
Given that you currently have to special app to get access to this system anyway, I don't see what the problem is? Because when you special app, you can request a concept that's up to three points above your current level. Since you are already having to special app to get these subguilds, is it that awful to just ask for your three extra points in your special app?
Which means that if you want to play your Vivaduan/Protector idea, you'd be able to app it just fine on normal Vivaduan karma, provided staff approve it.
I'm honestly not trying to be a dick here, I'm just trying to figure out how you think we'd need "a lot" of karma for these.
Quote from: Aaron Goulet on January 03, 2012, 05:11:11 AM
There are still some mundane classes (e.g. sneaky types) who might wish to avoid being guild sniffed.
Agreeing with this. The only time I ever got seriously guild sniffed, I was playing a ranger of all things. It sucked. I was trying to play a PC who had never seen combat at all and was terrified of fighting, but led people through storms as a guide for a living. (This was before direction sense became a skill that subguilds could pick up--woe for that PC.) She got hired into Kurac as a sifter, which was AWESOME.
... Until the local Fist Sarge found out she could see in storms and knew she'd "have a knack for fighting" and forced her into the Fist. It took me approximately 5 RL days of being in a scheduled combat clan in Red Storm as an offpeaker before I stored. :( I don't think I saw a single PC after Sergeant Asshat forced me into the unit.
If your new, and don't have any karma, can you still special app for something?
Let's say that special app gets accepted. Will I then be forced to play that character, and have to quit my current one? Does it just wait for you until the living, active character dies?
Quote from: Armaddict on January 03, 2012, 04:32:12 AM
Really...these kinda things look really cool. I really can't give any sort of real criticism, though, until I see how the majority of -players- use them. So here in a couple months I may rant, or I may say major kudos. :P
True.
Although, I'm predicting the end of the GMHs
In fact, disregard of most of the docs as magickers become more prevalent
Quote from: My 2 sids on January 03, 2012, 06:25:08 AM
Quote from: Armaddict on January 03, 2012, 04:32:12 AM
Really...these kinda things look really cool. I really can't give any sort of real criticism, though, until I see how the majority of -players- use them. So here in a couple months I may rant, or I may say major kudos. :P
True.
Although, I'm predicting the end of the GMHs
In fact, disregard of most of the docs as magickers become more prevalent
Perhaps at first, but once GCP goes live I suspect we will actually see a net decrease after everyone uses up their points. :D
Quote from: Dark Fate on January 03, 2012, 05:54:52 AM
If your new, and don't have any karma, can you still special app for something?
Let's say that special app gets accepted. Will I then be forced to play that character, and have to quit my current one? Does it just wait for you until the living, active character dies?
According to 'help special application':
Quote
Special Applications (Account)
Players may submit up to three special applications per year, at most one
per month. A special application allows players to request to play a
character that is up to three karma points higher than their current karma.
All Special Applications should be submitted through the Request Tool.
See Also:
Karma, Request Tool
That means yes! a new player with 0 karma can submit a special application for a character with any of the currently available extended subguilds. It is important to consider what we mean by 'new' though - for a player's first character? This is unlikely to be approved as even when players apply for guilds, etc. within the +3 karma range we consider their account notes and so on before approving it.
If approved, your new guild/subguild options will be available the next time you create a character. This requires the storage or death of your existing character.
QuoteIn fact, disregard of most of the docs as magickers become more prevalent
I don't think they can get more prevalent than a few different times in the past that I've seen. Considering that these are also special applications at this time, I wouldn't expect a giant influx like you're making it sound, either.
Besides. They're being tested out. If something ends up being a problem, well...here is where we'll find out. I'd suggest you keep in touch with staff during this time to provide good feedback. Nothing will get found out based off of our speculations here, regardless.
Considering that the magicker subguilds are not even selectable at this moment, even with a special app ... I don't see a surge of magickers happening just yet anyway.
Sorry if this has been asked before, but can you special app for your next character with a super subguild while you're still playing your current one?
Or do you have to take a week or more out the game while you get approved and work out a time to hook up with the staff to set up your character?
Quote from: Fathi on January 03, 2012, 05:23:38 AM
Quote from: HavokBlue on January 03, 2012, 04:02:58 AM
Quote from: Aaron Goulet on January 03, 2012, 03:56:21 AM
I think it's a step in the right direction, especially when GCP(?) are implemented. No more spamming magicker characters every time you die, but more importantly, it should help to combat guild sniffing and give people more flexibility with their character concepts. You can bet my next PC will be a special app!
But it only helps with guild sniffing if you have a lot of karma, or are playing a mundane class already.
Given that you currently have to special app to get access to this system anyway, I don't see what the problem is? Because when you special app, you can request a concept that's up to three points above your current level. Since you are already having to special app to get these subguilds, is it that awful to just ask for your three extra points in your special app?
Which means that if you want to play your Vivaduan/Protector idea, you'd be able to app it just fine on normal Vivaduan karma, provided staff approve it.
I'm honestly not trying to be a dick here, I'm just trying to figure out how you think we'd need "a lot" of karma for these.
Quote from: Aaron Goulet on January 03, 2012, 05:11:11 AM
There are still some mundane classes (e.g. sneaky types) who might wish to avoid being guild sniffed.
Agreeing with this. The only time I ever got seriously guild sniffed, I was playing a ranger of all things. It sucked. I was trying to play a PC who had never seen combat at all and was terrified of fighting, but led people through storms as a guide for a living. (This was before direction sense became a skill that subguilds could pick up--woe for that PC.) She got hired into Kurac as a sifter, which was AWESOME.
... Until the local Fist Sarge found out she could see in storms and knew she'd "have a knack for fighting" and forced her into the Fist. It took me approximately 5 RL days of being in a scheduled combat clan in Red Storm as an offpeaker before I stored. :( I don't think I saw a single PC after Sergeant Asshat forced me into the unit.
I'm pretty sure they only require special applications during the trial period before actual CGP code is implemented.
Quote from: Booya on January 03, 2012, 08:08:54 AM
Sorry if this has been asked before, but can you special app for your next character with a super subguild while you're still playing your current one?
Or do you have to take a week or more out the game while you get approved and work out a time to hook up with the staff to set up your character?
I know for certain that the expanded subguilds will not require setup - you will be able to enter the game with them. I cannot say for sure if the same is true for skill bumps arranged via special application, however.
Quote from: MeTekillot on January 03, 2012, 01:44:23 AM
Quote from: Nyr on January 03, 2012, 01:07:13 AM
We're not going to give warriors backstab, by the way. I think it's kinda obvious we wouldn't, but just to be clear, we are not going to do that at all.
warrior/slipknife
also i linked to the original post but i could not right the date.
Three things:
--I said this (6 months ago--by the way, the date will be inputted automatically if you use the "quote" button on an existing post as I did with yours) knowing full well we had a system going in place that would create this possibility; this has been in the works and in discussion for about a year or more. We typically don't speculate on projects going on staff-side until they have been revealed.
--This system was developed with the idea of balancing more powerful subguilds with the expectation that CGP would have to both exist and be used to "pay" for it.
--This thread is for discussion of the extended subguilds. Please limit discussion here to the extended subguilds rather than what staffers have said about the game when this system was not a speck in the eyes of the players. If you have nothing better to do, keep your opinions to yourself.
I don't suppose that the GCP concept is in the works already? Or is it pending a successful trial run first?
Quote from: HavokBlue on January 03, 2012, 04:02:58 AM
Quote from: Aaron Goulet on January 03, 2012, 03:56:21 AM
I think it's a step in the right direction, especially when GCP(?) are implemented. No more spamming magicker characters every time you die, but more importantly, it should help to combat guild sniffing and give people more flexibility with their character concepts. You can bet my next PC will be a special app!
But it only helps with guild sniffing if you have a lot of karma, or are playing a mundane class already.
Aggressor, protector, and slipknife both cost 3 CXP, so, if you're able to play a given magick guild, beefing them up as a mundane combatant is within extreme specapp range. Which seems about right. A krathi with parry and ultimate shield use--or hide--probably
should be karma 7.
Oh, oh, more question:
3) Subguild cavilish?
Quote from: brytta.leofa on January 03, 2012, 08:58:10 AM
Oh, oh, more question:
3) Subguild cavilish?
Looks like Master Trader has you covered. It alludes to it; perhaps it should be more clear.
Quote from: Aaron Goulet on January 03, 2012, 08:55:38 AM
I don't suppose that the GCP concept is in the works already? Or is it pending a successful trial run first?
CGP, good sir, CGP. The concept is certainly laid out, but we are doing a trial run of some of the subguilds first, yes.
I was quite excited at the first prospect of reading into this and thinking how I might be able to try out some of these subguilds, then I saw they all required CGP(Karma). I then realized that most of these, even the most "basic" mundane versions are out of my reach.
I really do like how things are being added to enhance the game, but there are a very large group of us players who do NOT have Karma and are unable to experience ANY of this new stuff going into the game. I do hope with the CGP system that perhaps it flows more freely in the future(for instance character longevity) and the like... but...
Its a bit disheartening that things are being added and they're just more things out of my reach.
Otherwise: This is a really awesome addition and I am sure if I had access to any of it I would be extremely pleased and happy :)
Quote from: brytta.leofa on January 03, 2012, 08:58:10 AM
Oh, oh, more question:
3) Subguild cavilish?
Yes, please! I'd say it would be cool if it came with any of the master crafting guilds (making it easier to fly under the radar). Another option might be to let players add new languages at a CGP-per rate in additon to a subguild (effectively functioning similarly to skill bumps).
Edit: Looks like I was in too late. And thanks for correcting me, Nyr, I was making myself look stoopid. :D
Quote from: AreteX on January 03, 2012, 09:01:05 AM
I was quite excited at the first prospect of reading into this and thinking how I might be able to try out some of these subguilds, then I saw they all required CGP(Karma). I then realized that most of these, even the most "basic" mundane versions are out of my reach.
I really do like how things are being added to enhance the game, but there are a very large group of us players who do NOT have Karma and are unable to experience ANY of this new stuff going into the game. I do hope with the CGP system that perhaps it flows more freely in the future(for instance character longevity) and the like... but...
Its a bit disheartening that things are being added and they're just more things out of my reach.
Otherwise: This is a really awesome addition and I am sure if I had access to any of it I would be extremely pleased and happy :)
Well, this is just a guess, but it sounds like in the original announcement for this in the staff forums, they have also revised the criteria by which karma is awarded, making it a little less arbitrary, and since CGP (I did it right!) will automatically regulate the amount of "special people" in game, staff might be a little less reluctant to dole out karma to the deserving, effectively lifting the perceived "karma freeze" some people have speculated about.
I probably won't even try any of this special app stuff until it's an automatic process.
Don't much like waiting a week just to find out that
A) either denied and told to change minor details and wait another three or four days
B) accepted, but no coinciding times will be available for another week in order to be 'set up'
It's difficult enough for me to really get into a new character, especially after an old one just died, but to take a week or two just to get back in would kill my stride.
Quote from: Nyr on January 03, 2012, 08:59:45 AM
Quote from: brytta.leofa on January 03, 2012, 08:58:10 AM
Oh, oh, more question:
3) Subguild cavilish?
Looks like Master Trader has you covered. It alludes to it; perhaps it should be more clear.
Ah, I thought it was alluding to haggle. ;) Neat.
Quote from: Aaron Goulet on January 03, 2012, 09:02:37 AM
Yes, please! I'd say it would be cool if it came with any of the master crafting guilds (making it easier to fly under the radar). Another option might be to let players add new languages at a CGP-per rate in additon to a subguild (effectively functioning similarly to skill bumps).
Yar, if the master-
crafting subguilds don't include cavalish, it might be a convenient automation to allow purchasing it for an additional 1 CXP or so.
Quote from: AreteX on January 03, 2012, 09:01:05 AM
I was quite excited at the first prospect of reading into this and thinking how I might be able to try out some of these subguilds, then I saw they all required CGP(Karma). I then realized that most of these, even the most "basic" mundane versions are out of my reach.
I really do like how things are being added to enhance the game, but there are a very large group of us players who do NOT have Karma and are unable to experience ANY of this new stuff going into the game. I do hope with the CGP system that perhaps it flows more freely in the future(for instance character longevity) and the like... but...
Its a bit disheartening that things are being added and they're just more things out of my reach.
Otherwise: This is a really awesome addition and I am sure if I had access to any of it I would be extremely pleased and happy :)
I am under the impression that (just like you could if this were completely implemented, or just like you could prior to this partial, trial implementation) you can special app.
Quote from: CravenMadness on January 03, 2012, 09:10:49 AM
I probably won't even try any of this special app stuff until it's an automatic process.
Don't much like waiting a week just to find out that
A) either denied and told to change minor details and wait another three or four days
B) accepted, but no coinciding times will be available for another week in order to be 'set up'
It's difficult enough for me to really get into a new character, especially after an old one just died, but to take a week or two just to get back in would kill my stride.
If I'm understanding correctly, you can special app at any point and only play the new PC upon your current character's death. If anything, this could potentially lower your time in between characters to nothing at all. The only feature requiring to be 'set up' is the skill bumps, anything else can be done without your virtual presence :)
[Correct me if I'm wrong]
Yes, you can special app at any point, anyway (even if you are already playing a character).
exceptions:
you have already special apped 3 times in a year
you have special apped once already in the past month period
Ohhhhhhhhh reaaaaaaally......
I didn't know if anyone noticed or not, but since it usually gets done the same day as changes like these:
The news feed on the main website and MOTD haven't been updated yet for the players that don't follow the discussion board.
Every single player has access to this system -right now-. ALL of the subguilds that are open for special application cost 3 CGP or less. All special applications are considered to be for up to 3 CGP (or karma points) worth of changes. This could be:
- A guild or race that is within 3 points of your current karma level. If you have no karma you can special app for a desert elf, vivaduan, rukkian or Half Giant.
- Skill bumps up to 3 levels of mastery on any of your characters starting skills. With the caveat that weapons skills will max at 2 skill bumps.
- Any of the EXTENDED subguilds we have said are available right now. Note, the magicker subguilds are off the table at this point in time.
To those that are lamenting the fact that these all incur a reasonable cost which could exclude lower or zero karma players from creating their most desired combinations, sorry, these are not your average subguilds. They are more powerful, they have more options and they are meant either for those that have the karma to spend on them or who wish to use up one of their special application slots to have one. The existing subguilds and guilds are still in play and you have the same access to those that you have always had. As mentioned above, the majority of these subguilds are available via special application which will open up combinations to everyone, you just might not get to play the nilazi assassin you were dreaming of.
Does the fact that these are special app mean that we can apply for them while still having living characters?
Would it irk you (staff) if we applied as such but with no intent to store or otherwise have our current characters expire?
What would happen if, while such a special application was processing, a karma character was applied for through the regular system? Would CGP's be "spent" and potentially invalidate the special application?
I still think 2 bumps for weapon skills is too much.
Quote from: Spoon on January 03, 2012, 11:51:47 AM
I still think 2 bumps for weapon skills is too much.
Oh yes, this I was thinking as well.
Journeyman weapon skill does not seem to be a trivial accomplishment on par with journeyman ride/parry/sneak/whatever.
If anything, it ought to cost 2-3 CGP for 1 bump.
I think 2 bumps on weapon skills is fine. Maybe cost two points per bump on those though.
1) I can't get the helpfile for "Master Weaponsmith" to work
2) The magick subguilds look neat (I would definitely want to play one someday), but I was wondering why you decided against any elementalist subguilds?
It's just "weaponsmith," not "master weaponsmith," Taven.
Quote from: Wasteland Raider on January 03, 2012, 12:27:31 PM
It's just "weaponsmith," not "master weaponsmith," Taven.
That seems confusing, since it is listed on the extended subguilds list as "Master Weaponsmith". I think it should either be changed on the list to read "Weaponsmith" or have the look up changed.
But you are right, just weaponsmith works. Thanks!
I've gone through and cleaned up formatting and naming of these new helpfiles. Please post here if you see any further issues.
Quote from: Taven on January 03, 2012, 12:19:58 PM
2) The magick subguilds look neat (I would definitely want to play one someday), but I was wondering why you decided against any elementalist subguilds?
elementalist or elementalist not, there is no half-ass
I do not think journeyman is too high a rank for weapon skill bumping. I've attained that in about ten or so days of semi-regular hunting, no sparring involved. Since you're spending karma for this, and the character is starting with some life experience, I believe it's fine. You also have to remember that most folks aren't going to have a heap of CGP, so by investing much into a weapon skill, they're neglecting complementary combat abilities which will have to be caught up in order to fight at one's full potential.
Beyond journeyman, I would probably put up a wall or increase the cost to 2 CGP.
Looks great! Thanks staff!
My last special app required me to lose a starting skill and the two skills that branched from it in order to raise my cooking skill CAP from advanced to master. This new system seems far more sensible and equitable and it looks like it will allow for some great creativity.
Is it kosher to take an elementalist guild and a extended magick subguild? Or is it one or the other?
Quote from: NOFUN on January 03, 2012, 01:28:08 PM
Is it kosher to take an elementalist guild and a extended magick subguild? Or is it one or the other?
Hehe, I've asked that two or three times already.... must be a seeeeekrit.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on January 03, 2012, 01:35:19 PM
Quote from: NOFUN on January 03, 2012, 01:28:08 PM
Is it kosher to take an elementalist guild and a extended magick subguild? Or is it one or the other?
Hehe, I've asked that two or three times already.... must be a seeeeekrit.
It's been stated already that the new magicker subguilds are Sorcery subguilds. You cannot be both an elementalist and a sorcerer, so to spell it out, no, you cannot have both an elementalist guild and magicker subguild.
Quote from: Akoto on January 03, 2012, 01:06:53 PM
I do not think journeyman is too high a rank for weapon skill bumping. I've attained that in about ten or so days of semi-regular hunting, no sparring involved. Since you're spending karma for this, and the character is starting with some life experience, I believe it's fine. You also have to remember that most folks aren't going to have a heap of CGP, so by investing much into a weapon skill, they're neglecting complementary combat abilities which will have to be caught up in order to fight at one's full potential.
Beyond journeyman, I would probably put up a wall or increase the cost to 2 CGP.
Seems viable to do that with a warrior, sure. Other guilds? Not so much at all. Weapon skills increase extremely slowly compared to pretty much everything else.
I thought originally all master crafter subguilds would be be able to mastercraft?
The help for Master Tailor and Master and Weaponsmith say "unique designs" which makes it pretty clear that they can. The subguilds for Master Crafter, Master Armorsmith, and Master Jeweler do not have this, or similar, verbage. It would be nice if some consistent verbage was used so that down the line someone doesn't have to ferret it out. Now, if it was left out because only 2 of 5 Master get master crafting...that would make many pandas sad.
Quote from: Twilight on January 03, 2012, 01:45:39 PM
I thought originally all master crafter subguilds would be be able to mastercraft?
The help for Master Tailor and Master and Weaponsmith say "unique designs" which makes it pretty clear that they can. The subguilds for Master Crafter, Master Armorsmith, and Master Jeweler do not have this, or similar, verbage. It would be nice if some consistent verbage was used so that down the line someone doesn't have to ferret it out. Now, if it was left out because only 2 of 5 Master get master crafting...that would make many pandas sad.
The help-files for these sub-guilds were written by several members of staff, so the wording in one or two may differ from others, I would think, however, considering they are 'Master-craft' Sub-guilds, you can reach master in all of them.
Quote from: Delusion on January 03, 2012, 01:43:10 PM
Quote from: Akoto on January 03, 2012, 01:06:53 PM
I do not think journeyman is too high a rank for weapon skill bumping. I've attained that in about ten or so days of semi-regular hunting, no sparring involved. Since you're spending karma for this, and the character is starting with some life experience, I believe it's fine. You also have to remember that most folks aren't going to have a heap of CGP, so by investing much into a weapon skill, they're neglecting complementary combat abilities which will have to be caught up in order to fight at one's full potential.
Beyond journeyman, I would probably put up a wall or increase the cost to 2 CGP.
Seems viable to do that with a warrior, sure. Other guilds? Not so much at all. Weapon skills increase extremely slowly compared to pretty much everything else.
For one guild, two weapon skill bumps could bring the skill to advanced.
Second, I have a near twenty day played warrior who spars regularly, and does not have a journeyman weapon skill yet.
Someone could start with what seems like the longest, hardest skill to raise already more then halfway done.
The others don't take -ages- like weapons skills do.
That's something I don't really like...
Well I do not know about you guys but I, for one, welcome our chalton hide boots and plain simple shirt "I can take down a gith already nyah nyah nyah" overlords.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on January 03, 2012, 11:50:24 AM
Does the fact that these are special app mean that we can apply for them while still having living characters?
Quote from: Nyr on January 03, 2012, 09:43:37 AM
Yes, you can special app at any point, anyway (even if you are already playing a character).
exceptions:
you have already special apped 3 times in a year
you have special apped once already in the past month period
Quote
Would it irk you (staff) if we applied as such but with no intent to store or otherwise have our current characters expire?
I don't know. I assume since it works the same as a special app, we don't care, though you will have to be setup by staff afterwards. Consequently, you may want to coordinate that setup in advance with staff (whenever it may be).
Quote
What would happen if, while such a special application was processing, a karma character was applied for through the regular system? Would CGP's be "spent" and potentially invalidate the special application?
Quote from: Adhira on January 02, 2012, 09:32:58 PM
Yes. The 3 special apps per year is still in place, even if special apping for these subguilds/skill bumps. While this process is in the special app trial phase your karma points will not be deducted, so this is a trade off.
Feel free to submit your special applications in advance, be aware that if you are intending to make them months down the track the coded system may come in to place before then. If you're not intending to play your extended karma or take your skill bumps within the next month I highly recommend waiting till closer to the time as the coded process may well be in place.
Currently we try and resolve special applications within a month. On the announcement thread I noted that special applications for extended subguilds or skill bumps will be resolved within a maximum of seven days. I expect that most will be resolved within 2 days with the extra time needed for any correspondence re: set up times or queries. This process should be relatively straight forward and simple. Keep your applications within the boundaries (ie don't go asking for extras like mutant eyes, or super height) and there should be no problems with working through them.
Okay, one small complaint critique: Outdoorsman seems to give the same skills as Hunter, only probably with higher caps. The price (3 CXP) seems a little high to this noob.
Maybe an Advanced archery cap is worth it. Or maybe it gives Country Hide (which would be suitably terrifyin', and well worth 3 doubloons).
We don't think the price for Outdoorsman is too high.
We are using this trial period to assess the CGP, if it proves to be too high we'll consider changing it. However you can assume that the CGP shows a direct relationship to how powerful we consider both the skill mix AND the skill caps in each extended subguild.
Also, we may still be tweaking the helpfiles. So there's that.
Quote from: Dark Fate on January 03, 2012, 02:08:52 PM
Quote from: Delusion on January 03, 2012, 01:43:10 PM
Quote from: Akoto on January 03, 2012, 01:06:53 PM
I do not think journeyman is too high a rank for weapon skill bumping. I've attained that in about ten or so days of semi-regular hunting, no sparring involved. Since you're spending karma for this, and the character is starting with some life experience, I believe it's fine. You also have to remember that most folks aren't going to have a heap of CGP, so by investing much into a weapon skill, they're neglecting complementary combat abilities which will have to be caught up in order to fight at one's full potential.
Beyond journeyman, I would probably put up a wall or increase the cost to 2 CGP.
Seems viable to do that with a warrior, sure. Other guilds? Not so much at all. Weapon skills increase extremely slowly compared to pretty much everything else.
For one guild, two weapon skill bumps could bring the skill to advanced.
Second, I have a near twenty day played warrior who spars regularly, and does not have a journeyman weapon skill yet.
Someone could start with what seems like the longest, hardest skill to raise already more then halfway done.
The others don't take -ages- like weapons skills do.
That's something I don't really like...
All the clues necessary for understanding why your weapon skills are low, Dark Fate, are within these posts.
Quote from: Dark Fate on January 03, 2012, 02:08:52 PM
Quote from: Delusion on January 03, 2012, 01:43:10 PM
Quote from: Akoto on January 03, 2012, 01:06:53 PM
I do not think journeyman is too high a rank for weapon skill bumping. I've attained that in about ten or so days of semi-regular hunting, no sparring involved. Since you're spending karma for this, and the character is starting with some life experience, I believe it's fine. You also have to remember that most folks aren't going to have a heap of CGP, so by investing much into a weapon skill, they're neglecting complementary combat abilities which will have to be caught up in order to fight at one's full potential.
Beyond journeyman, I would probably put up a wall or increase the cost to 2 CGP.
Seems viable to do that with a warrior, sure. Other guilds? Not so much at all. Weapon skills increase extremely slowly compared to pretty much everything else.
For one guild, two weapon skill bumps could bring the skill to advanced.
Second, I have a near twenty day played warrior who spars regularly, and does not have a journeyman weapon skill yet.
Someone could start with what seems like the longest, hardest skill to raise already more then halfway done.
The others don't take -ages- like weapons skills do.
That's something I don't really like...
Are you more likely to learn how to use a gun quickly in a situation where your life depends on it, or in a firing range where there's no real danger?
Can't tell if supposed to be rhetorical question...
Quote from: Adhira on January 03, 2012, 02:45:49 PM
We don't think the price for Outdoorsman is too high.
My big complaint would be that it seems to give warriors only one smallish benefit over hunter...folks are talkin' like Warrior+Outdoorsman will be the ultimate hybrid ranger, but that don't seem to be so. The case for assassins or mages is probably stronger. (But I have limited experience and information compared to y'all.)
Quote from: Marauder Moe on January 03, 2012, 03:56:29 PM
Can't tell if supposed to be rhetorical question...
Poor choice of example, might have been better if I had used something like : Your more likely to learn how to use a shield effectively if your life depends on it, than if your life is safe with the use of padding and fake weapons.
Warrior/outdoorsman? Psht.... Ranger/Aggressor is where it's at. With three skill points applied to a certain combat skill.
That's what I'd do if I weren't loving the poo out of my PC. :D
Quote from: Kol on January 03, 2012, 03:51:36 PM
Are you more likely to learn how to use a gun quickly in a situation where your life depends on it, or in a firing range where there's no real danger?
I'll chime in, since I'm a weapons & combat oriented martial arts instructor.
When you're first learning skills of any kind adding stress of any kind means that you are likely to fuck up the proper technique and learn the skill incorrectly/never grasp the basic concepts.
You need to learn basic concepts and perfect your form with skills, (especially combat-oriented ones,) while in a controlled environment before you introduce other factors.
But essentially: You're going to need both.
Ideally, you're going to take someone with no combat training and familiarize them with fighting in this order. (If we're talking about one skill here, i.e. swinging a sword. Let's not get into shields, advanced tactics, working with others in combat.)
1.) Introduce them to the weapon. Let them hold it. Have them carry it everywhere. They need to be familiar with its weight, its feel, and how it functions.
2.) Have them practice basic attacks/parries so that they can take their knowledge from 1 and apply it. They also need to perfect their rudimentary skills in a slow-paced, controlled environment.
3.) Ramp up the difficulty until they can control their basic attacks/defenses at a higher pace/aggressive level. Add in X factors, i.e. surprise attacks, multiple opponents, etc.
So, believe it or not, you shouldn't be tossing Byn Runners into the fire on Day 1 if you don't plan on them getting hurt/adopting bad habits. That's just a function of the game for playability. You can sit there all day and say "OH WE SMASH OUR NEW RUNNERS BECAUSE WE'RE HAAAARD!" That's stupid. Why would you bother investing in Runners if you're just going to bring them in for sparring dummies? Granted, this might happen to a few that the Byn Sergeant doesn't "see anything" in--by and large this is probably a poor choice.
How are you supposed to make sid, after all, if you never have a unit that is fully functional? This means: mostly uninjured, able to train when not taking in contracts, and enough comraderie to take care of each other out there in "the shit".
edit: I'll also add that in the example of guns....
People are not likely to "learn" guns by simply being handed a gun and being told to fend off a pack of wolves. What they're going to do is panic, try to fire the gun as best they learned from Hollywood, and miss a lot. Marksmanship fundamentals aren't something to be learned "on the fly". In order to accurately fire a gun it's actually quite the opposite of most combat-oriented skills in which you apply no aggression--in fact, aggression just makes you fuck it up. There's a bazillion bad habits you can develop by not learning in a controlled environment--and you're going to "skill cap" at a pretty low level if you learn that way. You'll probably never realize wtf you're doing wrong, too.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on January 03, 2012, 03:57:39 PM
Quote from: Adhira on January 03, 2012, 02:45:49 PM
We don't think the price for Outdoorsman is too high.
My big complaint would be that it seems to give warriors only one smallish benefit over hunter...folks are talkin' like Warrior+Outdoorsman will be the ultimate hybrid ranger, but that don't seem to be so. The case for assassins or mages is probably stronger. (But I have limited experience and information compared to y'all.)
Like I said, we probably need to tweak some help files. Just like it wasn't blatantly obvious that Master Trader comes with cavilish, some of these others need to be tweaked as well to allude to what is really there. In this case, it might be worth it to note that there are at least two skills that the extended subguild of Outdoorsman has that are not at once readily apparent by the helpfile.
Quote from: Is Friday on January 03, 2012, 04:05:16 PM
Quote from: Kol on January 03, 2012, 03:51:36 PM
Are you more likely to learn how to use a gun quickly in a situation where your life depends on it, or in a firing range where there's no real danger?
I'll chime in, since I'm a weapons & combat oriented martial arts instructor.
When you're first learning skills of any kind adding stress of any kind means that you are likely to fuck up the proper technique and learn the skill incorrectly/never grasp the basic concepts.
You need to learn basic concepts and perfect your form with skills, (especially combat-oriented ones,) while in a controlled environment before you introduce other factors.
But essentially: You're going to need both.
Ideally, you're going to take someone with no combat training and familiarize them with fighting in this order. (If we're talking about one skill here, i.e. swinging a sword. Let's not get into shields, advanced tactics, working with others in combat.)
1.) Introduce them to the weapon. Let them hold it. Have them carry it everywhere. They need to be familiar with its weight, its feel, and how it functions.
2.) Have them practice basic attacks/parries so that they can take their knowledge from 1 and apply it. They also need to perfect their rudimentary skills in a slow-paced, controlled environment.
3.) Ramp up the difficulty until they can control their basic attacks/defenses at a higher pace/aggressive level. Add in X factors, i.e. surprise attacks, multiple opponents, etc.
So, believe it or not, you shouldn't be tossing Byn Runners into the fire on Day 1 if you don't plan on them getting hurt/adopting bad habits. That's just a function of the game for playability. You can sit there all day and say "OH WE SMASH OUR NEW RUNNERS BECAUSE WE'RE HAAAARD!" That's stupid. Why would you bother investing in Runners if you're just going to bring them in for sparring dummies? Granted, this might happen to a few that the Byn Sergeant doesn't "see anything" in--by and large this is probably a poor choice.
How are you supposed to make sid, after all, if you never have a unit that is fully functional? This means: mostly uninjured, able to train when not taking in contracts, and enough comraderie to take care of each other out there in "the shit".
edit: I'll also add that in the example of guns....
People are not likely to "learn" guns by simply being handed a gun and being told to fend off a pack of wolves. What they're going to do is panic, try and fire the gun as best they learned from Hollywood, and miss a lot. Marksmanship fundamentals aren't something to be learned "on the fly". In order to accurately fire a gun it's actually quite the opposite of most combat-oriented skills in which you apply no aggression--in fact, aggression just makes you fuck it up. There's a bazillion bad habits you can develop by not learning in a controlled environment--and you're going to "skill cap" at a pretty low level if you learn that way. You'll probably never realize wtf you're doing wrong, too.
That said, the method by which weapon skills increase IG is incongruent with the reality described by Is Friday. But I digress...
Quote from: Nyr on January 03, 2012, 04:12:54 PM
In this case, it might be worth it to note that there are at least two skills that the extended subguild of Outdoorsman has that are not at once readily apparent by the helpfile.
Ah, gotcha.
> watch helpfiles
> change ldesc is here, looking nonchalant.
Yeah, not to mention the fact that most people don't really roleplay all the little things that go with close-quarters combat. Most players gloss over the bazillion boring things that go with it, but that's okay--it's a game. They just need to be aware that yes, injuries are a large part of training, training stupidly won't make you harder--it'll make you more injured and possibly never able to perform at the same level that you once did.
And before someone points me to the Spartans: Let's look at their life expectancy, their mortality rate amongst young warriors being trained up, and just how much "care" went into each aspect of combat being learned. It's not like they half-assed anything. Everything had a purpose. They did not send out their warriors to tangle with wolves on a regular basis. Most training was in a "controlled environment"--it just happened to be a truly brutal, masochistic environment. (They did, however, have a rite of passage involving murdering someone and often encouraged stealing to eat--discouraging being caught by whipping them.)
Quote from: Kol on January 03, 2012, 04:02:30 PM
Quote from: Marauder Moe on January 03, 2012, 03:56:29 PM
Can't tell if supposed to be rhetorical question...
Poor choice of example, might have been better if I had used something like : Your more likely to learn how to use a shield effectively if your life depends on it, than if your life is safe with the use of padding and fake weapons.
If you mean to say: My Bynners will take this more seriously if we use real weapons, then I'll call BS on that. I'm fairly certain that every Zalanthan understands the implications of fighting, combat, and death wholesale just by walking down a road in Allanak. (Not Tuluk!) Life outside the walls is barbaric. Life inside the walls is often genocidal. Someone learning CQC in a military/hunting organization is going to take it seriously and learn the skills. They're going to value what they're learning, because there is no free lunch in Zalanthas like there is in the real world.
Shit, if you go to Africa and teach a kid there how to use an AK-47 more effectively--I guarantee you he's going to absorb everything he can from you. He's going to value that knowledge because it is applicable to his everyday life.
Zalanthans are much more in touch with violence than your average Westerner of today--don't think of them as the soft creatures we are.
Is there wilderness quit for outdoorsmen? That would be awesome and would be my only selected subguild forever it had it.
Quote from: DustMight on January 03, 2012, 04:28:56 PM
Is there wilderness quit for outdoorsmen? That would be awesome and would be my only selected subguild forever it had it.
Ahira already said nope
Quote from: Yam on January 03, 2012, 04:30:30 PM
Quote from: DustMight on January 03, 2012, 04:28:56 PM
Is there wilderness quit for outdoorsmen? That would be awesome and would be my only selected subguild forever it had it.
Ahira already said nope
Thanks. :'(
subguild sorcery but no subguild rangerquit.....
....
sigh
at this point, i'd rather see armageddon go skill-based with no guild or subguild requirements, just karma reqs for skill trees. this is getting kinda silly, imho.
Quote from: Necro on January 03, 2012, 05:58:25 PM
subguild sorcery but no subguild rangerquit.....
....
sigh
at this point, i'd rather see armageddon go skill-based with no guild or subguild requirements, just karma reqs for skill trees. this is getting kinda silly, imho.
Karma required for magic or skill bumps and all skills can be improved upon slowly does seem kinda cool. I don't think we'll see it in arm 1 though.
Quote from: Necro on January 03, 2012, 05:58:25 PM
subguild sorcery but no subguild rangerquit.....
....
sigh
at this point, i'd rather see armageddon go skill-based with no guild or subguild requirements, just karma reqs for skill trees. this is getting kinda silly, imho.
At the risk of a derail, I agree with you Necro. I wanted to see (in my own private version of Armageddon where I actually don't have to devote the time to code it all) guildless skill-based character development with universal wilderness quit with only a few types of characters not able to quit out in wilderness (nobles, maybe, a few strictly city-based folks). Maybe the next game.
I never did understand the logic behind denying wilderness quit to at least all warriors and rangers (and why warrior and ranger weren't made into one class) as well as all desert-based characters.
Still (to keep this on topic) the new subguilds are great - now I can more accurately play that merchant with a love of dueling.
What, no special apps for these new subguilds so far, yet?
Guess we need to get on killing some of you.
QuoteWhat, no special apps for these new subguilds so far, yet?
Guess we need to get on killing some of you.
Sorry, I am actually finding myself un-interested in the entire deal.
And really don't see anything offered that seems worth spending those levels of "CGP" on.
Talia is starting to sound like that guy that everyone used to be scared of. Whats his face, the one who used to animate npcs and kill people at random.
Has the mr. bean avatar that looks like a taliban guy.
edit: no offense to you, Talia. plz don't kill my pc! ;D
Quote from: Kinther on January 03, 2012, 07:47:06 PM
Talia is starting to sound like that guy that everyone used to be scared of. Whats his face, the one who used to animate npcs and kill people at random.
Has the mr. bean avatar that looks like a taliban guy.
edit: no offense to you, Talia. plz don't kill my pc! ;D
Hal?
He didn't kill at random. He purposely aimed. :D
Halaster, that's the one. I had nightmares about him killing my c-elf pickpockets when I first started playing arm.
Quote from: janeshephard on January 03, 2012, 07:00:26 PM
Quote from: Necro on January 03, 2012, 05:58:25 PM
subguild sorcery but no subguild rangerquit.....
....
sigh
at this point, i'd rather see armageddon go skill-based with no guild or subguild requirements, just karma reqs for skill trees. this is getting kinda silly, imho.
Karma required for magic or skill bumps and all skills can be improved upon slowly does seem kinda cool. I don't think we'll see it in arm 1 though.
Or 2. :'(
Quote from: Talia on January 03, 2012, 07:34:09 PM
What, no special apps for these new subguilds so far, yet?
Guess we need to get on killing some of you.
If I wasn't currently in a role I enjoy and have plans for... I'd jump on this in a heartbeat. I can think of a lot of fun character concepts.
Too tired to play, or ponder character concepts right now. Zzzztomorrow.
(I had fun reading this thread at work, though!)
Ranger/protector will be my next soldier, f'sure f'sure. Rukkian/aggressor will be my next vile witch, if I can beg the points. ;)
Whiran/Outdoorsman. :D
Not interested in wasting a special app on anything. If I don't have the karma for something, then I don't have the karma for something. If I have it, I shouldn't have to lose it just because I want to use it. That's how I felt when this system was first announced months ago, and my opinion hasn't changed.
Quote from: Lizzie on January 03, 2012, 08:16:15 PM
Not interested in wasting a special app on anything. If I don't have the karma for something, then I don't have the karma for something. If I have it, I shouldn't have to lose it just because I want to use it. That's how I felt when this system was first announced months ago, and my opinion hasn't changed.
Doesn't it regen over time? It's not like you lose it forever.
I rarely use my karma anyway. Might as well blow it, if I come up with a fun character concept.
p.s. yeah, CGP regen over time.
Quote from: DustMight on January 03, 2012, 08:18:03 PM
Quote from: Lizzie on January 03, 2012, 08:16:15 PM
Not interested in wasting a special app on anything. If I don't have the karma for something, then I don't have the karma for something. If I have it, I shouldn't have to lose it just because I want to use it. That's how I felt when this system was first announced months ago, and my opinion hasn't changed.
Doesn't it regen over time? It's not like you lose it forever.
Yes it does. So if, for example..I have played for 10 years and have earned 8 karma...or GPS or CGB or FBI or whatever you want to call it...
And I decide I want to play a rukkian/outdoorsman..
I now only have 2 karma (you can't go below 2 karma, supposedly). So if that rukkian dies in a couple of weeks (as they often do), I'll still have to wait 6 months, of playing ONLY mundanes with ZERO special anything, before I can play the nilazi that I spent 10 years earning the karma to play.
Of course I personally don't have that much karma, but I hate the system. I've played in games that used RPPs...and hated them. I came to Armageddon to get -away- from the "let's RP for points!" game.
Quote from: Talia on January 03, 2012, 07:34:09 PM
What, no special apps for these new subguilds so far, yet?
Guess we need to get on killing some of you.
Joining the "I would be all over this if my current character was dead" crew. I guess it goes to show that you gave karma to folks that won't immediately suicide upon seeing a good option pop up. ;) The staff should be happy so far.
Either that or everybody's just hunkering down and waiting for the sorcerer subguilds to come out before they blow through their CGP/Karma.
Quote from: Lizzie on January 03, 2012, 08:23:42 PMOf course I personally don't have that much karma, but I hate the system. I've played in games that used RPPs...and hated them. I came to Armageddon to get -away- from the "let's RP for points!" game.
I think the Arm staff has done a superb job of implementing benefits for good RP without it being cheesy. We like sorcerers, but we do not want every Joe, Dick & Harry to become a sorcerer. How else do you do that?
Quote from: Lizzie on January 03, 2012, 08:23:42 PM
Quote from: DustMight on January 03, 2012, 08:18:03 PM
Quote from: Lizzie on January 03, 2012, 08:16:15 PM
Not interested in wasting a special app on anything. If I don't have the karma for something, then I don't have the karma for something. If I have it, I shouldn't have to lose it just because I want to use it. That's how I felt when this system was first announced months ago, and my opinion hasn't changed.
Doesn't it regen over time? It's not like you lose it forever.
Yes it does. So if, for example..I have played for 10 years and have earned 8 karma...or GPS or CGB or FBI or whatever you want to call it...
And I decide I want to play a rukkian/outdoorsman..
I now only have 2 karma (you can't go below 2 karma, supposedly). So if that rukkian dies in a couple of weeks (as they often do), I'll still have to wait 6 months, of playing ONLY mundanes with ZERO special anything, before I can play the nilazi that I spent 10 years earning the karma to play.
Of course I personally don't have that much karma, but I hate the system. I've played in games that used RPPs...and hated them. I came to Armageddon to get -away- from the "let's RP for points!" game.
You really have no idea how much it hurts me inside that you can't play the rarest things in the game over and over and over again when they happen to die quickly, which they probably won't.
Lizzie, your math is off. Unfortunately, we aren't talking about that system with CGP regeneration which indeed may have changed since it was proposed. We're talking about this special app trial system, which is in place. Please keep the discussion on topic; the "RP points" derail is both wrong and inappropriate for this thread.
Moved a post to moderation, please keep the discussion on topic.
Yes I was in the process of editing my post response to Armaddict, Nyr when it was deleted, after I posted it and saw your post just above mine.
I'd suggest though, that Armaddict's post is just a snark on my previous one and is equally off-topic and uncalled for. I can't report posts - it always gets stuck in the "send" process.
I have no problem with the extended subguids and think they're a great idea. I just can't stand the methodology of applying/playing them.
Armaddict is not still posting off-topic after a warning. Please keep the discussion on topic.
I'd love to play one, myself, but probably for my next PC. Or maybe I'd do a skill bump. Err. Maybe not both, though.
Don't got the karma eh?
I'm going to play one...probably. At some point. I need to think up the right concept, though. I'm considering it, sort of going through possible combinations and figuring out what I might enjoy best.
Meantime...gotta get back to killing some of you.
(Mostly kidding.)
Oh... you need something ... maybe I should come back ...
... or, am I too distanced right now to do the reports needed for these whatever these are?
I just wanted to say that I like the new subguild additions, and I've got a concept or two that are playable now.
It looks good!
Just came a little in my pants...
(not really but that's just how awesome this is)
Outdoorsman helpfile updated.
I imagine there is going to be a lot more RPT's revolving around stemming the tide of witches.
Good. Nothing like a good ol fashioned witch hunt.
Quote from: http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?Subg_Outdoorsman... quietly approach their target ...
...They get wilderness_steal!! ;)
Neat.
Hrm... Are these extended subguilds in addition to regular subguilds?
Orrrrr, are they instead of regular subguilds?
Quote from: Qzzrbl on January 04, 2012, 02:42:42 AM
Hrm... Are these extended subguilds in addition to regular subguilds?
Orrrrr, are they instead of regular subguilds?
My impression was that they are instead of regular subguilds. Getting to pick two subguilds would be, for lack of a better term, "too OP".
Uhh. You can choose either. If that's what your question meant Qzzrlb.
I'd lolSuicide my PC, but I suspect my staff would hate me forever if I did (also, my character is fun). ;)
Quote from: Zoan on January 04, 2012, 03:49:32 AM
I'd lolSuicide my PC, but I suspect my staff would hate me forever if I did (also, my character is fun). ;)
Talia said they hadn't gotten any apps yet.
This opens up options which fits a concept I've had in my back pocket since I was a month into Arm...
Question is.. Will staff approve it..
oops wrong thread
Quote from: brytta.leofa on January 03, 2012, 11:59:34 PM
Quote from: http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?Subg_Outdoorsman... quietly approach their target ...
...They get wilderness_steal!! ;)
Neat.
It took me about ten seconds to get it, but I laughed quite loudly.
;D
i just freaking saw this! nice, in the most awesome sense!
Quote from: Talia on January 03, 2012, 07:34:09 PM
What, no special apps for these new subguilds so far, yet?
Guess we need to get on killing some of you.
I've actually got a character I want to play after my current one, I just need to write up a suitable spec app - although given that I'm not playing much (at all, really) these days and my current PC is likely going to live until she upsets someone, the special app will be sitting for a while before I actually get around to being able to play it. Also, I don't know which SG I want to pick out of two potential options. I'm surprised that none of the SGs have scan, last I checked. So no scan or wilderness quit.
Yeah. I just got my shiny new "welcome back" PC to test the waters with, so I haven't submitted my special app yet, even though I already have a concept in mind. Knowing me, however, there is a good chance something unexpected will happen and murdilate my PC. :( Story of my life.
Quote from: Celest on January 04, 2012, 07:51:58 AMI'm surprised that none of the SGs have scan, last I checked.
That would be incorrect. Like I said before, though, there are still some that need to have helpfiles updated.
Quote from: Nyr on January 04, 2012, 08:54:07 AM
Quote from: Celest on January 04, 2012, 07:51:58 AMI'm surprised that none of the SGs have scan, last I checked.
That would be incorrect. Like I said before, though, there are still some that need to have helpfiles updated.
In that case, it must be the SG that mirrors the real guild which has scan. That should narrow it down! ;D
I'm just beginning to play again, and my current character is too awesome to store. Fortunately, I've had a character concept in mind since the first announcement about these extended subguilds and skill boosts. Just need to narrow down what will likely fit best.
Quote from: Celest on January 04, 2012, 07:51:58 AM
Quote from: Talia on January 03, 2012, 07:34:09 PM
What, no special apps for these new subguilds so far, yet?
Guess we need to get on killing some of you.
I've actually got a character I want to play after my current one, I just need to write up a suitable spec app - although given that I'm not playing much (at all, really) these days and my current PC is likely going to live until she upsets someone, the special app will be sitting for a while before I actually get around to being able to play it. Also, I don't know which SG I want to pick out of two potential options. I'm surprised that none of the SGs have scan, last I checked. So no scan or wilderness quit.
i used up my year's special apps like an idiot. i've got a month left or something, but i don't have any ideas for the extended sgs for myself right now.
will events occur IG to explain the increased interest in sorcery or not so much?
Just out of curiosity, if you use up a years spec apps does it reset a year after your first or last spec app?
Quote from: Cind on January 04, 2012, 11:07:00 AM
Quote from: Celest on January 04, 2012, 07:51:58 AM
Quote from: Talia on January 03, 2012, 07:34:09 PM
What, no special apps for these new subguilds so far, yet?
Guess we need to get on killing some of you.
I've actually got a character I want to play after my current one, I just need to write up a suitable spec app - although given that I'm not playing much (at all, really) these days and my current PC is likely going to live until she upsets someone, the special app will be sitting for a while before I actually get around to being able to play it. Also, I don't know which SG I want to pick out of two potential options. I'm surprised that none of the SGs have scan, last I checked. So no scan or wilderness quit.
i used up my year's special apps like an idiot. i've got a month left or something, but i don't have any ideas for the extended sgs for myself right now.
will events occur IG to explain the increased interest in sorcery or not so much?
No, considering the documentation already indicates people who 'learn a spell or two' exist, there are no events needed to explain it.
Quote from: NOFUN on January 04, 2012, 11:08:56 AM
Just out of curiosity, if you use up a years spec apps does it reset a year after your first or last spec app?
your first. i don't recall the thread in which a staffy said this.
Quote from: Cind on January 04, 2012, 11:07:00 AM
will events occur IG to explain the increased interest in sorcery or not so much?
The answer to this has already been stated in this thread.
Quote from: Cind on January 04, 2012, 11:11:46 AM
Quote from: NOFUN on January 04, 2012, 11:08:56 AM
Just out of curiosity, if you use up a years spec apps does it reset a year after your first or last spec app?
your first. i don't recall the thread in which a staffy said this.
Apologies for the derail here: there's no need to remember any one thread. The only thing you need to remember how to do is how to use the advanced search tool. Click on it, put what you want to search for there, and limit it to the appropriate subforums. If you want to know staff position on it, limit the search to "Ask the Staff." If you don't get results, rephrase the search a few times. If you still don't get results, then you certainly should ask. This is how many folks in the more technical fields search for answers on obscure problems and the like--knowing what to search for, where to search, and what to disregard. It's a very good skill to develop. Teach a man to fish, and what-not.
I'm going to be really black and white about this and ask: If we spec-app something now and get it approved, will we be allowed to play it at our leisure, or will we have to store/lose our current PC at some time in the near future?
Any answers pertaining to a question of this nature have not been clear enough for me, you see.
I had to dig to find it, but I did remember that we answered that yesterday. I tried to:
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,42570.msg654791.html#msg654791
and then adhira did:
Quote from: Adhira on January 03, 2012, 02:37:53 PM
Feel free to submit your special applications in advance, be aware that if you are intending to make them months down the track the coded system may come in to place before then. If you're not intending to play your extended karma or take your skill bumps within the next month I highly recommend waiting till closer to the time as the coded process may well be in place.
Currently we try and resolve special applications within a month. On the announcement thread I noted that special applications for extended subguilds or skill bumps will be resolved within a maximum of seven days. I expect that most will be resolved within 2 days with the extra time needed for any correspondence re: set up times or queries. This process should be relatively straight forward and simple. Keep your applications within the boundaries (ie don't go asking for extras like mutant eyes, or super height) and there should be no problems with working through them.
So yeah, you can play it whenever you want to.
I have two quick questions because I haven't been around over the holidays -
a) At this point is the CGP use/regeneration system active? ie, would I be spending points on one of these, and would those points be regenerating at that 1/month rate?
b) Are karma races/classes also on the CGP use/regeneration system now?
Quote from: jstorrie on January 04, 2012, 06:35:38 PM
I have two quick questions because I haven't been around over the holidays -
a) At this point is the CGP use/regeneration system active? ie, would I be spending points on one of these, and would those points be regenerating at that 1/month rate?
b) Are karma races/classes also on the CGP use/regeneration system now?
It isn't active yet and wont be for a while
So if you use CGP right now, what happens to them? Are they just adjusted manually for now?
Nope. Everything's the same but you can apply for the mundane extended subguilds via special app without losing any points/karma.
Sigh. I probably won't be able to use this until FAR after it's codedly implemented. Already have a special app approved and waiting for me after my current character bites the dust. Not that i'm complaining, more a sigh of longing...
Quote from: Yam on January 04, 2012, 06:42:44 PM
Nope. Everything's the same but you can apply for the mundane extended subguilds via special app without losing any points/karma.
I heard if you don't get denied you'll get the spec-app use back too. But, that might not be official staff opinion yet.
Not that I'm returning to play or anything...
<shifty gaze>
But if I had X number of karma before CGP were implemented, would that mean I have X number of CGP?
I may have either stated incorrectly or been misunderstood (if it was me on Teamspeak), but if you successfully USE a special app (regardless of for a "regular" special app or one of these subguilds), you do indeed use the special app.
Quote from: Nyr on January 05, 2012, 12:51:04 AM
I may have either stated incorrectly or been misunderstood (if it was me on Teamspeak), but if you successfully USE a special app (regardless of for a "regular" special app or one of these subguilds), you do indeed use the special app.
I -think- that's what I said. Heh. I think...
But the point is you don't use it if your app gets denied for one of these new sub-guilds, right?
Remember:
To keep the process streamlined while in the trial phase we will be allowing applications for either extended subguilds OR skill bumps. The combination of the two will not be implemented at the beginning phase of this trial.
Also, I will endeavour in all cases not to decline special apps done via this process. If they need modification expect an email discussion on it, instead.
Will you entertain special apps that go above eight karma?
Example: Nilazi: Master Trader?
Three for Master Trader. Six for Nilazi. That makes nine total.
You need to have the karma for the guild you want. Special apps for extended subguilds should be for those guilds only.
Burlgar/Outdoorsman
Or
Ranger/Rogue
I cannot decide.
I was totally going to do a spec app for one of these until I realized it's not 3 spec-apps for each 12 month year, but rather 3 spec apps per 12 consecutive months. :'(
It looks like grebber could possibly forage food. Can they? That's the type of thing which would definitely make me swing one way or the other on two or three concepts knocking around in my head at the moment.
Quote from: Adhira on January 05, 2012, 01:38:42 AM
You need to have the karma for the guild you want. Special apps for extended subguilds should be for those guilds only.
Would using the guild you want (Nilazi, in this example, at 6 karma) detract from your CGP to use? If you had 6 karma.
Quote from: Down Under on January 05, 2012, 02:35:19 AM
Would using the guild you want (Nilazi, in this example, at 6 karma) detract from your CGP to use? If you had 6 karma.
CGP currently don't exist. Pretend they were never mentioned. At the moment they're using the standard special app rules which are completely different.
If you hate the idea of CGP but like the idea of the extended subguilds, app one of the extended subguilds now and you won't have to deal with CGP AND still get to have the extended subguild that you want.
Outdoors...man. No skin?
Quote from: HavokBlue on January 05, 2012, 02:13:26 AM
I was totally going to do a spec app for one of these until I realized it's not 3 spec-apps for each 12 month year, but rather 3 spec apps per 12 consecutive months. :'(
Not true, I put in a spec app on the second day of the year and I have mine free. :D
Quote from: John on January 05, 2012, 02:41:31 AM
Quote from: Down Under on January 05, 2012, 02:35:19 AM
Would using the guild you want (Nilazi, in this example, at 6 karma) detract from your CGP to use? If you had 6 karma.
CGP currently don't exist. Pretend they were never mentioned. At the moment they're using the standard special app rules which are completely different.
If you hate the idea of CGP but like the idea of the extended subguilds, app one of the extended subguilds now and you won't have to deal with CGP AND still get to have the extended subguild that you want.
Right. I'm saying when CGP goes in.
I wish, but the request tool doesn't lie.
Or does it?
I think that Allanaki templar, Jihaen templar, and Lirathan templar should all be special (mandatory and 0 CGP) extended subguilds for those roles, rather than those roles having guilds to which one applies a subguild. I'd like to see more variety among those sort of PCs.
Quote from: solera on January 05, 2012, 03:38:53 AM
Outdoors...man. No skin?
It appears that in the process of getting the proper skills mentioned on this particular extended subguild, it is missing something it previously alluded to...we'll get that fixed.
Quote from: jstorrie on January 05, 2012, 04:56:02 AM
I think that Allanaki templar, Jihaen templar, and Lirathan templar should all be special (mandatory and 0 CGP) extended subguilds for those roles, rather than those roles having guilds to which one applies a subguild. I'd like to see more variety among those sort of PCs.
No. If you're getting one of these and want a special subguild, you'll probably need to wait until the automated system is in place--and even then, there will probably be restrictions in place. We haven't gotten to official guidelines on this yet. Giving an already amazing role more stuff at no cost does not seem like a good idea.
I also split off the derail about devotions and redacted info and etc. Please do your best to keep this on topic about the extended subguild system that is currently in place/trialed out.
Quote from: Talia on January 03, 2012, 07:34:09 PM
What, no special apps for these new subguilds so far, yet?
Guess we need to get on killing some of you.
I'm awaiting my account notes to see if I have any karma or not, before I spec app anything. It's also unlikely I'd be interested in storing my current character to play one of these. Simply involved in too many things, and enjoying my current character far too much.
I have several ideas for ESG characters though, and generally like this proposed system. I do agree, however, that it is sometimes difficult for less visible players to get karma. I don't know how best to address that particular issue. I could propose ideas and theories, but even though they'd be related to the topic at hand, it might be considered a derail, so I'll save it for another topic.
I know this has been asked and answered by a non-staff member in this thread, but can we get an official response on it?
Are the extended subguilds in -addition- to your standard subguild selection, or is it an -alternative- to your standard subguild?
Quote from: Heade on January 05, 2012, 01:56:36 PM
I know this has been asked and answered by a non-staff member in this thread, but can we get an official response on it?
Are the extended subguilds in -addition- to your standard subguild selection, or is it an -alternative- to your standard subguild?
It is an alternative.
This might be confusing while we are in the special app process as you will choose a normal subguild at character creation time. However we will overwrite that when you get set up for the application with the one you chose, and reset your skills.
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on January 05, 2012, 02:28:54 AM
It looks like grebber could possibly forage food. Can they? That's the type of thing which would definitely make me swing one way or the other on two or three concepts knocking around in my head at the moment.
The forage helpfile is accurate at/on this point.
When the page loads for me, it cuts off everything below the bolded word 'Note:' so I can't actually tell from that. Perhaps eventually I will be able to get it to load. If someone who can see the text wouldn't mind PMing it to me, though, that would be awesome.
Note:
What you may be able to find differs according to both your character's
skill level and guild. For example, only a select few guilds/subguilds can
forage for food (rangers and scavengers).
:)
Will there be a mastercraft subguild for other crafts down the road? Stonecrafting, woodcrafting, etc.
Quote from: Bacon on January 05, 2012, 02:27:58 PM
Will there be a mastercraft subguild for other crafts down the road? Stonecrafting, woodcrafting, etc.
One of the mastercraft subguilds implies stonecrafting, but I don't know if it's master-able.
All the extended subguilds that are craft based have master craft options to them. This should be indicated either by the title, or the helpfile.
Master Tailor
Master Jeweler
Master Armorsmith
Weaponsmith
Master Crafter - Master crafters are talented in working vines and grasses into baskets as well as shaping items from stone
Trying to be super psyched about these additions, but even though it makes characters more realistically flexible, it seems like it might tempt one to want to play a cool toy more than a character.
I'm also concerned that some combinations may be overpowered, while others may render the 'warrior' guild obsolete.
At the same time I know those are silly worries - that's why the karma system and the high cgp prices are there. Just had to vent anxieties, like an old man shaking his cane at the latest technology.
Definite props to the work that went into this though.
Quote from: Nyr on January 05, 2012, 08:32:54 AM
Quote from: jstorrie on January 05, 2012, 04:56:02 AM
I think that Allanaki templar, Jihaen templar, and Lirathan templar should all be special (mandatory and 0 CGP) extended subguilds for those roles, rather than those roles having guilds to which one applies a subguild. I'd like to see more variety among those sort of PCs.
No. If you're getting one of these and want a special subguild...
That's not what I'm suggesting! I don't think there should be Jihaen-slipknives running around. Nyr, stop skimming, start reading!
Quote from: jstorrie on January 05, 2012, 05:09:27 PM
Quote from: Nyr on January 05, 2012, 08:32:54 AM
Quote from: jstorrie on January 05, 2012, 04:56:02 AM
I think that Allanaki templar, Jihaen templar, and Lirathan templar should all be special (mandatory and 0 CGP) extended subguilds for those roles, rather than those roles having guilds to which one applies a subguild. I'd like to see more variety among those sort of PCs.
No. If you're getting one of these and want a special subguild...
That's not what I'm suggesting! I don't think there should be Jihaen-slipknives running around. Nyr, stop skimming, start reading!
Do you mean a templar subguild for main guilds?
I really don't think that'd work.
Quote from: jstorrie on January 05, 2012, 05:09:27 PM
Quote from: Nyr on January 05, 2012, 08:32:54 AM
Quote from: jstorrie on January 05, 2012, 04:56:02 AM
I think that Allanaki templar, Jihaen templar, and Lirathan templar should all be special (mandatory and 0 CGP) extended subguilds for those roles, rather than those roles having guilds to which one applies a subguild. I'd like to see more variety among those sort of PCs.
No. If you're getting one of these and want a special subguild...
That's not what I'm suggesting! I don't think there should be Jihaen-slipknives running around. Nyr, stop skimming, start reading!
Oh. Yes, that's interesting. I don't think it's particularly relevant to the extended subguilds, though. We're not discussing potential new ones, and overall, what you describe would likely overpower such roles (and due to their nature, you can't really discuss this sort of thing on the forum). Probably best to table that thought for the GDB at least.
Quote from: Yam on January 05, 2012, 05:13:00 PM
Do you mean a templar subguild for main guilds?
I really don't think that'd work.
Yeah that's what I mean. Some of the templar classes are already pretty close to certain 'normal' classes plus a subguild's worth of special powers... I think those roles could be diversified a bit, so you could have a more mercantile or espionage-oriented blue-robe/Jihaen/etc. from time to time, though they'd be rarer.
Quote from: Nyr on January 05, 2012, 05:39:09 PM(and due to their nature, you can't really discuss this sort of thing on the forum). Probably best to table that thought for the GDB at least.
Ok, loud & clear. Just wanted to pitch the idea.
Quote01/05/2012: 'O' Creation Options now visible whenever connected to account -- Morgenes
Is this so that you can add in the extended subguilds that a person has the karma to choose as a third list after race and guilds?
And/or, I know I am not supposed to discuss here really but don't have a better place to, is this change so that you can add in a display of the current CGP in that screen when/if that happens?
Quote from: Twilight on January 05, 2012, 06:41:03 PM
Quote01/05/2012: 'O' Creation Options now visible whenever connected to account -- Morgenes
Is this so that you can add in the extended subguilds that a person has the karma to choose as a third list after race and guilds?
And/or, I know I am not supposed to discuss here really but don't have a better place to, is this change so that you can add in a display of the current CGP in that screen when/if that happens?
It was there if you could create a new character, we went ahead and opened it up to all the time, but that is not a bad idea.
I'm hopeful that testing will be going on for a while! I'd quite like to things out, particularly the skill bumps. It all brings up interesting new opportunities.
Unfortunately, my next specapp doesn't open up until March 9, so I'm guessing the odds aren't so good.
Quote from: musashi on January 03, 2012, 08:17:09 PM
Quote from: Delirium on January 03, 2012, 08:15:57 PM
Whiran/Outdoorsman. :D
7 CGP?
I dunno.
The cost of elementalist (outside of Rul/Vivi) plus a mundane subguild is so high, it may only get done via special app for people with 4 karma.
You can special app for up to +3 CGP, so if you have access to any class you can theoretically apply any mundane extended subguild to it.
Quote from: jstorrie on January 05, 2012, 05:54:07 PM
Yeah that's what I mean. Some of the templar classes are already pretty close to certain 'normal' classes plus a subguild's worth of special powers... I think those roles could be diversified a bit, so you could have a more mercantile or espionage-oriented blue-robe/Jihaen/etc. from time to time, though they'd be rarer.
The blue-eyed, blue-robed templar moves stealthily to the west.
A half-giant Allanaki soldier moves stealthily to the west.
A human Allanaki soldier moves stealthily to the west.
The average elf stands here, scratching his head and looking rather dumbfounded.
I know, I am a terrible person.
Quote from: Akaramu on January 07, 2012, 07:08:40 PM
A human Allanaki soldier moves stealthily to the west.
I still want to make a detective-corporal.
Much easier to accomplish with the new subclasses! Burglar-protector? Warrior-rogue? Or so on.
Okay, okay, okay, so.... maybe this is exactly what folks have been wanting for a long time and will be a lot of fun.
I so want to test drive this, on one hand.
On the other, I don't want to special app a character, waste (probably Nyr's) time setting it up, then end up with my usual coin-flip as to whether or not I hate it and want to store the thing.
Paralyzed into inaction!
Quote from: number13 on January 09, 2012, 11:40:13 PM
I so want to test drive this, on one hand.
On the other, I don't want to special app a character, waste (probably Nyr's) time setting it up, then end up with my usual coin-flip as to whether or not I hate it and want to store the thing.
Paralyzed into inaction!
Worse you can do is Try.
*bounces excitedly*
A lot of the recent game additions make me a happy camper.
That's all.
Quote from: number13 on January 09, 2012, 11:40:13 PM
I so want to test drive this, on one hand.
On the other, I don't want to special app a character, waste (probably Nyr's) time setting it up, then end up with my usual coin-flip as to whether or not I hate it and want to store the thing.
Paralyzed into inaction!
Thank god I'm not the only one who does this.
Give it a shot! Who knows. You might like it. If you don't, at least you know now.
Quote from: Akaramu on January 10, 2012, 05:11:33 AM
*bounces excitedly*
A lot of the recent game additions make me a happy camper.
The Gladiator and Gaj - Sleeping Area [W Quit]
> draw halfsword
You draw a balanced, well-sharpened foam halfsword.
> hide
You begin spawn camping.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on January 10, 2012, 09:50:48 AM
Quote from: Akaramu on January 10, 2012, 05:11:33 AM
*bounces excitedly*
A lot of the recent game additions make me a happy camper.
The Gladiator and Gaj - Sleeping Area [W Quit]
> draw halfsword
You draw a balanced, well-sharpened foam halfsword.
> hide
You begin spawn camping.
Hah! This made me chuckle...
Quote from: Kol on January 10, 2012, 01:31:42 PM
Quote from: brytta.leofa on January 10, 2012, 09:50:48 AM
Quote from: Akaramu on January 10, 2012, 05:11:33 AM
*bounces excitedly*
A lot of the recent game additions make me a happy camper.
The Gladiator and Gaj - Sleeping Area [W Quit]
> draw halfsword
You draw a balanced, well-sharpened foam halfsword.
> hide
You begin spawn camping.
Hah! This made me chuckle...
LOL
I am very close to applying for one of these! ...but I had to send in a request with a bunch of code questions first.
I sort of assumed this but...
Once the system is automated for skill bumps, I assume the timing of the application of the bump would be after choosing your starting location?
Quote from: Twilight on January 17, 2012, 03:41:32 PM
I sort of assumed this but...
Once the system is automated for skill bumps, I assume the timing of the application of the bump would be after choosing your starting location?
We haven't decided this, but it would most likely be on skill reset which happens when you enter the game or when staff resets skills. Locations mods would happen later.
My experience so far with these is that they are awesome. Thanks for taking the code in a novel direction! I look forward to seeing how this all works out once everything's polished up completely.
I'm really liking these so far. My one problem (I don't know if it's been brought up) is that the helpfiles don't reflect that some of the skills branch.
Huh? Almost every one Ive read talks about "Eventually they may learn to..." or "Those amongst them who excel..."
Quote from: WWYD on January 21, 2012, 04:40:41 AM
I'm really liking these so far. My one problem (I don't know if it's been brought up) is that the helpfiles don't reflect that some of the skills branch.
You're already branching skills? Bloody hell! I get excited if I manage to move up a step.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on January 21, 2012, 05:02:52 AM
Huh? Almost every one Ive read talks about "Eventually they may learn to..." or "Those amongst them who excel..."
I'll check again later (the last time I read them it was 7 AM), but most of them don't, mainly the crafting subguilds.
Some of them do not branch skills, some do. Crafting skill trees for extended subguilds, in general, do not.
I think a Master Linguist subguild would be cool. Sirihish, Allundean, Mirrukim, Bendune, and Cavalish. Perhaps they would start with a few of the different accents as well.
Quote from: Bacon on January 23, 2012, 03:36:41 PM
I think a Master Linguist subguild would be cool. Sirihish, Allundean, Mirrukim, Bendune, and Cavalish. Perhaps they would start with a few of the different accents as well.
Cavilish, honestly, doesn't seem to be much use in the game as its own language. If more people spoke it, I think it would be seen as more useful, especially since its not a racially based language. A subguild providing it, with the necessary other subguild treats that would prompt more people to take it, would kick ass. Imagine being held captive in the dark by elves who know you know cavilish and allundean; they switch to cavilish to partially conceal their identity. As it stands now, it kind of just says that you're a crafter/trader/suck at fighting and I've personally never found it useful, just a side thing, or a temporary bonus.
Ranger/Master Trader FTW. Or, hell, assassin, or warrior!
What about Master Baiter? You know...Tracking...Hunting...
If you special apped a character would it be kosher to ask for a nomad accent ontop of an extended subguild? As like, an exception to the picking subguild_nomad for a nomad background?
I mean, I had an idea for a nomad character, though at the same time the new subguilds sound like the bees knees.
Or maybe a master nomad guild that can create spearheads as well as poles?
At this point you may apply for
one of the following:
a special application that is
NOT an extended subguild
a special application that is
ONLY for an extended subguild as proscribed by this initiative
a special application that is
ONLY for skill boosts as proscribed by this initiative
Anything that is a mix of the above likely will be denied.
Quote from: Cind on January 23, 2012, 04:34:56 PM
A subguild providing it, with the necessary other subguild treats that would prompt more people to take it, would kick ass.
Yeah, it would be great if we had created an extended subguild with cavilish... (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,42570.msg654723.html#msg654723) :)
What kind of turn around time on these? If we have no character currently should we app something to play in the meantime?
Really itching to play.
Quote from: jhunter on January 26, 2012, 10:22:07 AM
What kind of turn around time on these? If we have no character currently should we app something to play in the meantime?
Really itching to play.
I think they said they're trying for a week on special apps that are ONLY for an extended subguild or skill boosts.
Quote from: Adhira on January 02, 2012, 11:37:10 PM
The process for this is not automated. It will require submitting the special application for approval, which may take up to a week to be processed.
Quote from: Nyr on January 26, 2012, 09:39:11 AM
At this point you may apply for one of the following:
a special application that is NOT an extended subguild
a special application that is ONLY for an extended subguild as proscribed by this initiative
a special application that is ONLY for skill boosts as proscribed by this initiative
Anything that is a mix of the above likely will be denied.
Quote from: Cind on January 23, 2012, 04:34:56 PM
A subguild providing it, with the necessary other subguild treats that would prompt more people to take it, would kick ass.
Yeah, it would be great if we had created an extended subguild with cavilish... (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,42570.msg654723.html#msg654723) :)
My brain exploded. There are no words to describe how I feel right now.
Sorry for the question if this is redundant:
Rangers have some fighting skill, though they are not as renowned as true warriors. How do aggressors fare as far as their reputation for fighting prowess?
Quote from: gfair on January 26, 2012, 09:02:35 PM
Sorry for the question if this is redundant:
Rangers have some fighting skill, though they are not as renowned as true warriors. How do aggressors fare as far as their reputation for fighting prowess?
I would assume they are perhaps equal to or slightly lesser than a Ranger's full potential. I would imagine they wouldn't want the subguilds, even if Ext.Subguilds to be too powerful.
The allure of an Ext.Subguild_Aggressor isn't in the sheer potential of their skill, but what skills they bring to the table, in a fight.
Reading the descriptions, I sort of assumed an aggressor got offense skills to a good level, lets say advanced or even master. But they got no defensive skills.
Opposite for protector.
Thus preserving the true fighting guilds as the only ones to possess both decent-ish fighting -and- defensive capabilities.
I'm not understanding why you guys think they get anything more than just skills.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on January 27, 2012, 04:55:25 AM
I'm not understanding why you guys think they get anything more than just skills.
Skills are nice, but it's really the skill caps that matter.
Quote from: gfair on January 26, 2012, 09:02:35 PM
Sorry for the question if this is redundant:
Rangers have some fighting skill, though they are not as renowned as true warriors. How do aggressors fare as far as their reputation for fighting prowess?
Based on the cost, and the fact that other extended subguilds get their selected area set to a "master" level, I sort of assumed that the warrior guild was split in two, giving their offensive skills and caps to aggressor, and their defensive skills and caps to defender. The entire point of the extended subguilds is to be able to excel in them beyond the skill caps of standard subguilds, from my understanding.
I've been chewing on this for a few weeks, and I can't help but think the extended subguilds really skew heavily in favor of the warrior class. I know that each class combination has its own merits and weaknesses, but in a practical sense it seems like warrior trumps all other mundane classes now.
A warrior-outdoorsman will have more short- and mid-term survivability and general toughness than a ranger-aggressor/ranger-protector, as well as being able to do most of what a ranger can do. Things may start to even out in the long-run, and the usefulness and consistency of the ranger's additional skills may become more prominent, but I'm not sure that outweighs the starting bonus provided by the warrior's base skills.
It seems like the same thing could be said of the stealth/thief subguilds as well.
Nah, I see some of those as being really badass additions for the ranger guild as well. Or the merchant guild, or the assassin guild. I think they help out several of the guilds pretty equally.
A ranger with backstab, or a magicker with hide...adds a new level of scary.
Someone lend me some karma so I can app a Half giant vivaduan aggressor.
Sure, some people might try some sort of min/max, but I'm willing to trust in y'all.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on February 07, 2012, 01:18:14 PM
A ranger with backstab, or a magicker with hide...adds a new level of scary.
Ranger bashing from hidden place, then launching a disarm...
Mmmmm.
warrior slipknife
warrior slipknife man
Quote from: MeTekillot on February 07, 2012, 08:38:57 PM
warrior slipknife
^^^
Warrior slipknife is much more frightening than rangers with bash or backstab, 'cause a warrior can still kick your ass after the backstab fails to do more than 20 damage or the bash misses.
Ranger can see warrior/slipknife coming.
Slipknife states that their backstab doesn't go as high as an assassin's.
Outdoorsman's archery doesn't go as high as a ranger's.
Both tools really only get nasty at the highest end of the spectrum.
Looks like these extended subguilds will give you enough of the skills
to enjoy them but not dominate as you could with a class that boasts
the skill primary.
I don't know about the magicker subguilds, but I don't see a warrior
matching up with an assassin or ranger classed PC regardless of
subguild setup in the PK game. They can certainly make warriors feel
less vanilla to play though.
Quote from: Hot_Dancer on February 09, 2012, 10:41:09 PM
Looks like these extended subguilds will give you enough of the skills
to enjoy them but not dominate as you could with a class that boasts
the skill primary.
I think the point is to roleplay and not necessarily unbalance things too much for karma endowed players.
Oh, I agree completely and endorse the usage.
I havn't been through the whole thread, just kind of knocking down the concept that any of
these extended subguilds are particularly unbalancing in my opinion or even as codedly useful
as people may fear.
Yeah, most skills are only 100% reliable at the extreme higher range of rating. Giving people a low-cap skill in any one area isn't likely to be too dramatic. That's why magickers are a little wonky. They essentially get a plethora of limited-use skills that they can train to maximum reliability.
Quote from: Dalmeth on February 15, 2012, 11:49:22 AM
Giving people a low-cap skill in any one area isn't likely to be too dramatic.
I haven't yet found out OOC by playing one, but "adept at" surely sounds like "master."
Quote from: brytta.leofa on February 15, 2012, 11:53:10 AM
I haven't yet found out OOC by playing one, but "adept at" surely sounds like "master."
Perhaps. I'll play one and let you know what I think.
I think some Soh friendly staff-member came up with the extended guilds. It must be.
Master Crafter Extended Guilds allow Soh to craft and create custom/mastercraft items without being merchant classed! (Tough to play a merchant in a clan that doesn't travel much)
rant mode on:
For the second time, I've seen the rules retroactively change in response to a character I've attempted to propose with skill bumps. Maybe I'm the only person who has even tried apping for a skill bump. Maybe staff thinks that I in particular will twink out and PK the entire pbase if I start with an early bonus in a certain skill. I don't know, but regardless, it's disheartening.
I'm really, really, really not interested in part of the game that occurs between days 0 and 5. I've done that already, too many times. A skill bump system that would work for me would allow me to skip that experience and get right into what I consider "the fun bits". That means, a reasonable score in a selection of quality of life skills (like contact, ride, maybe climb/first tier crafting skill/listen/sneak) and a reasonable score on a do-something-interesting skill (like a combat skill, steal, second tier crafting skill, maybe a second tier spell pre-branched.)
As it stands, the current skill bump system doesn't begin to scratch that itch. It would feel like a waste to spend points into something that's easily trained but annoying to deal with at lower levels (like contact or spells). Dumping all points into a single interesting skill ends with a request to revise the application into a form that would still require grinding before the actual fun stuff begins. Really, the only sane use of the skill bumps is to start with a weapon skill at higher level, plus an extra point placed into a combat style (like two-handed). And it's probably nice for that, but at this stage, uninteresting to me.
Thanks for the effort put into this, but it doesn't work for me. It's just after 70+ characters, I can't do the early bits anymore.
The Extended subguilds and skill bumps are in trial phase. This means that things can and will change throughout the process. We're taking feedback, we're looking at balance and seeing how things are used. It's only fair to the playerbase as a whole that we make sure this system works in a way that benefits not just the individual but the game world as a whole. I'm sorry if you are feeling that we're moving the goalpost in such a way that it's detrimental to you but any changes made to the system are not made because of one individual, there is no targetting of an individual etc etc etc.
I really don't want to piss on or piss off staff. I earnestly do appreciate that guys are keeping the game going. Still, I do feel targeted because the changes and/or clarifications aren't even publicity mentioned in this thread or an announcement thread.
It doesn't even really matter at this point, I guess. Three bumps to a single skill was always a lot less than what I was looking for, and the scale back to that is an inch too far for me to hold any interest in the system. I would have much preferred a system that allowed people with 1 or more karma to roll a Veteran character, with across the board bumps to skills making them equal to a 5-day character, with the trade-off that the character couldn't be a magicker, have a karma race, or have an Extended subguild, and burned a special app in the process... in essence trading future potential for the ability to play something immediately that didn't require a single hour of skill grinding before the fun stuff began.
Maybe next year.
No problem, I just wanted to clarify that this really wasn't a personal thing, it was a change across the board. The no more than 2 bumps to any weapon skill came in shortly after we implemented this. This was due to a mistake made by me in relaying the original intent. This is still under discussion as originally weapon skills were targeted for a bump of one level of mastery only, so even at two we're above what was originally intended.
Skills like steal, hide, sneak etc we are considering as being similar to weapon skills and looking to cap those at 2 bumps so you will not reach mastery level from the get go but be pretty high up the tree in that regard.
Does this take away the grind? No it doesn't. Sorry to say that I don't envision we will ever get to the point where there is no skill curve needed if getting your characters fully skilled up is what your aim is.
How about putting a list of the skills that are limited to those two bumps in one post on the announcement thread so it's less likely to cause this sort of confusion and edit it as changes come about?
Skill bump requests will be considered for a total of 3 'bumps'. Each bump will be for one 'level' of mastery. Only starting skills are available to be bumped.
Certain skills can only be bumped a maximum of 2 levels of mastery:
1) Weapon skills: slashing, bludgeoning, chopping, and piercing.
2) Sneak.
3) Hide.
4) Steal.
Something like that? Are those the only ones? Also, is that a total of 3 "bumps" period across all skills? Or 3 bumps max to any skills save for those with the two limit?
Feedback (not criticism!): Bumping three skills from novice to apprentice, bumping one skill to journeyman and one to apprentice, or bumping one "not special" skill to advanced is not anywhere in the same ballpark of power and usefulness as extended subguilds such as Outdoorsman or Slipknife that cost the same amount of points. I understand that staff may not be seeking to make all options equivalent, but I just can't imagine any scenario in which three skills at apprentice would be worth a special application. The chore of grinding (for me) is getting retarded-to-branch skills to tick over to Master from Advanced so that my character can finally have access to some of the basic skills of his/her job. I would rather use a subguild to get access to one of these skills from the get-go than use a skill bump to save me an incredibly small amount of effort to get to apprentice/journeyman. Granted, not all options are going to be equally appealing to all people, but the skill bumps option as implemented is completely unappealing.
Keep up the awesome work, though. I'm very excited about the new subguild options and I look forward to applying for one some day!
Also: I wish there was an extended subguild equivalent for physician.
Quote from: Thunkkin on February 29, 2012, 03:17:49 PM
Also: I wish there was an extended subguild equivalent for physician.
This yes, I agree and had thought about that. Maybe even with some access to them as a specialized field of interest to slightly more than basic knowledge in cures and materials.
I'm half-inclinded to app for a 3 bump to poisoning, just to see it added to the list. :P
Quote from: Potaje on February 29, 2012, 03:42:30 PM
Quote from: Thunkkin on February 29, 2012, 03:17:49 PM
Also: I wish there was an extended subguild equivalent for physician.
This yes, I agree and had thought about that. Maybe even with some access to them as a specialized field of interest to slightly more than basic knowledge in cures and materials.
That would be very cool.
Sneak and hide progress so quickly, and with so little risk, that this is kind of a non-issue anyway.
Quote from: Adhira on February 29, 2012, 02:30:10 PM
We're taking feedback, we're looking at balance and seeing how things are used. ... Does this take away the grind? No it doesn't. Sorry to say that I don't envision we will ever get to the point where there is no skill curve needed if getting your characters fully skilled up is what your aim is.
I was under the impression that the idea behind the skill bumps was to allow players that lack the time/inclination/desire to play Byn n00b #47 to skip the grind and start out further into the skill curve. If that's the case, I don't think skill bumps are doing it.
Here's why I feel that way:
Without getting into the codey details, the only skills that make sense to have bumped are also the skills that don't scale well with bumps. The rest of the skills aren't worth the price of the bump, so it becomes a lose/lose proposition.
It seems like the price per bump should be based on the risk of practicing the skill. As jstorrie pointed out, sneak and hide go up so fast and so risk-free that having them bumped is, at best, a convenience, and having them "bump capped" seems kind of absurd in that light. The same is true for cooking, forage, scan, listen, crafting skills, and a handful of others. I understand the staff doesn't want a bunch of haphazard uberthieves popping out of char gen, but let's be honest: Anyone with the karma to afford the skill bumps has the experience to quickly and reasonably max out those low-risk skills if they want to.
I'm not being critical of the skill bump policies, but having played with them a little bit I feel comfortable saying they don't fit my needs; I can only think of a couple of skills that I would consider bumping in the future, and I doubt I'm alone in feeling that way.
Rather than focusing on specific skills, I think it might be more useful to either allow skill bumps to entire categories (manipulation, stealth, etc.) or predetermined combinations (sneak/hide, forage/cooking, etc) so that the cost of the bump would be more worthwhile.
I agree to be honest. I cant really see myself asking for any skill bumps short of weapon skills. But when those skill bumps will begin costing CGP? Forget it. Sorry. Not for a character that's liable to die in 10 hours. But having the option in itself is still nice, I'm pretty sure there 'are' players out there with a steady habit of having most of their characters to be very very long lived and skipping on some annoying contact/crafting spammage.
Yeah, I'm definitely in agreement with the posts above. I can't imagine using these.
If you're allowed to apply for a half giant (3 karma), I think you should be allowed to apply for an advanced weapon skill (3 karma as well..), since, let's be honest, a half giant can be just as dangerous in the hand of an irresponsible player (which shouldn't happen in either case due to the number of karma required..).
Also, like the previous poster said, you can bet that if you're going to be losing 3 karma or more to boost your skill to such an advanced level, chances are that you're not going to go and play it stupid. If the fact that you have karma because you're actually trusted by the Staff to play such a boost responsibly, then the fear of wasting such an amount of karma should do it.
it's possibly that one of the reasons why skills like sneak/weapons,steal are capped to 2 improvements, is because if you give them 3 bumps, and it'll put them past the level they would be otherwise capped at. Which is a logical and clear reason why cap them. Doesnt change the fact that the cost of the bump is not appealing enough for any skill except the very few.
Personally, although I don't have a lot of Karma, I still like the skill bumps. It would be nice to get 2 bumps per CGP or something, but one still seems good to me.
Sorry - I'm a bit late into the conversation but I wanted to ask; how is Karma going to be issued/accumulated?
Let's say I have 3 Karma, does that turn into 3 CGP? Or is there going to be some sort of factor of 1 karma = 2 CGP? If not, I wouldn't even be able to use some of the CGP-required subguilds without completely sucking up all my CGP or simply not having enough.
I also vaguely remember someone mentioning that the CGP will 'recover' by 1 per month. Is that statement correct?
Yes. Yes.
Instead of all these numbers, can we divide it into categories of the highest level a skill can be bumped? Easier for brainz
Ex:
You have 3 points.
Available skills are:
Master Advanced Journeyman
contact skinning bludgeoning weapons
barrier listen steal
etc. kick dual wield
ride etc.
stuff w/ wood
etc.
choose listen journeyman
That skill will cost your guild 2 CGP. (y/n)
Some brainz are nommier than others
Also, I think skill bumps, if anything, provide an interesting addition to your background, outside of "got my <generic guild skill training> done down at that place over there."
I've always wanted to bump my 'stuff w/ wood' skill. ;D
My impression was you pay 3 points and receive the Advanced level for any skill, 2 points you get the Journeyman level, 1 point you get Apprentice.
Just dawned on me that some skills start at apprentice rather than novice. Let's say for a given guild, race, and starting location a character starts with Apprentice rope-making. If you dumped three points into that would the skill then rated as Master?
I ask because it might be the source of my confusion concerning the two skills I tried to app. I was shooting for Advanced, but maybe staff thought I was asking for Master?
They reset all of your skills to novice before you receive any bumps. Advanced is as far as you can go. Weapon skills, sneak, etc. only go to journeyman.
This is a trial period. There may even be restrictions on the trial period that were not necessarily envisioned for the actual implementation (which will spend accrued CGP as you assign it--a lot different than the system that is being tested out and definitely limited).
Quote from: Gunnerblaster on March 01, 2012, 01:46:43 AM
Sorry - I'm a bit late into the conversation but I wanted to ask; how is Karma going to be issued/accumulated?
Let's say I have 3 Karma, does that turn into 3 CGP? Or is there going to be some sort of factor of 1 karma = 2 CGP? If not, I wouldn't even be able to use some of the CGP-required subguilds without completely sucking up all my CGP or simply not having enough.
I also vaguely remember someone mentioning that the CGP will 'recover' by 1 per month. Is that statement correct?
You don't have to vaguely remember, you just have to read! (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,41934.0.html) :)
Now, back to skill bumps.
Quote from: Adhira on September 12, 2011, 02:38:03 PM
Option 2: Skill Bumps
Players will also have the option to spend their CGP 'bumping' their base skills. This will give them the option to bump starting skills one 'level' of mastery per CGP spent. Only starting skills are available to be bumped (so if you branch something from using CGP, you can't spend CGP on the branched skill). Skills that are available to everyone with training (like ride, pilot and watch) would be available for bumping. Some skills will be limited/restricted from being bumped. For instance, weapon skills will not be bump-able more than one or two at most. Offense/defense will not be an option.
This has not been a surprise or anything, we have had it up on the board for 6 months now. The trial system has been in place for a couple of months now. The actual system plans to use all possible CGP (karma + a special app, if you want) for skill bumps. The trial system is set to use only special apps for skill bumps. The trial system is also in place to only use the special app portion of this entire system, with proper limits in place.
Examples:
If you have 8 karma and you put in a special app, you can app for a psionicist with three (3) skill bumps.*
If you have 7 karma and you put in a special app, you can app for a mul with three (3) skill bumps.*
If you have 6 karma and you put in a special app, you can app for a void elementalist with three (3) skill bumps.*
If you have 0 karma and you put in a special app, you can app for a human warrior with three (3) skill bumps.*
*All skill bumps hold to any stated rules and are done by staff members manually.There is a hard limit of three (3) skill bumps per app, and these skill bumps are unrelated to your karma level. This is unlike the envisioned system. As far as I know, the vision for this system has not changed to the point where one will only be able to do 3 skill bumps after its actual coded implementation.
Future examples:
If you have 8 karma, you can app normally for a human warrior and apply eight skill bumps.*
*All skill bumps hold to any stated rules at that time, and are done within a coded system.This does not mean we won't move all of the existing restrictions over to the coded system. However, this also does not mean we will loosen any of the restrictions on the coded system. It simply means that this is a trial system, and changes are going to be considered carefully for its impact on players now as well as its impact on the CGP spending system in the future.
I like the idea of being able to do as many bumps as you have CGP (karma) to a non-karma race/guild so long as you don't go over the limits set for specific skills.
So, if one had 5 karma and was apping a human warrior they could put a total of five bumps toward skills but no more than 3 on any skill and no more than 2 on a single weapon skill, sneak, hide, steal. That's kinda how I was envisioning it going in.
Could do one bump to contact, one to a weapon skill, one to skinning, and two to ride with five karma if you wanted. I figure if you're trusted with more karma, you're not going to break anything by being able to do more bumps to a normally non-karma character. Or, if you wanted to do a karma race/guild, then that comes out of your points first before any bumps you might have the karma to do and wish to do.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on March 01, 2012, 12:09:55 AM
Yeah, I'm definitely in agreement with the posts above. I can't imagine using these.
Likewise. Most non-combat skills are rather trivial to cap through normal living-your-PC's-life. The skill bump system - both as temporarily implemented, and as eventually intended - only seems attractive for players who want to be better at killing, in one way or another.
It's not really all about killing...there are plenty of skills that aren't combat that might not be trivial for a particular character concept. I think it's great...it means that characters can finally be app'd with at least some kind of experience to show for their X years on Zalanthas...whereas as it stands (or at least until recently)...you can roll a 35 yr old character who can't do anything. I'd be quite happy bumping cooking and other crafty skills, as well as stuff like listen, climb, forage, scan, hunt, slight, contact etc etc. It just means your character can start the game...not completely useless for the first couple of days. Which tends to just be embarrassing (especially contact...omg).
Quote from: Maso on March 01, 2012, 07:04:46 PM
It's not really all about killing...there are plenty of skills that aren't combat that might not be trivial for a particular character concept. I think it's great...it means that characters can finally be app'd with at least some kind of experience to show for their X years on Zalanthas...whereas as it stands (or at least until recently)...you can roll a 35 yr old character who can't do anything. I'd be quite happy bumping cooking and other crafty skills, as well as stuff like listen, climb, forage, scan, hunt, slight, contact etc etc. It just means your character can start the game...not completely useless for the first couple of days. Which tends to just be embarrassing (especially contact...omg).
Right. It'll be nice to be able to make a character that can do their crafting skill they're supposed to be somewhat experienced with to some kind of useful degree from the get go. Or skinning, climb, forage, scan, hunt...etc. This is totally not just for "people who want to kill".
It is for me.
Quote from: A Large Bag on March 01, 2012, 08:22:52 PM
It'll be nice to be able to make a character that can do their crafting skill they're supposed to be somewhat experienced with to some kind of useful degree from the get go. Or skinning, climb, forage, scan, hunt...etc. This is totally not just for "people who want to kill".
I think you've missed my point. The skills you've mentioned are all relatively trivial to raise in-game. In comparison, the combat skills are both much more dangerous and much more tedious to raise.
Quote from: jstorrie on March 01, 2012, 08:51:26 PM
Quote from: A Large Bag on March 01, 2012, 08:22:52 PM
It'll be nice to be able to make a character that can do their crafting skill they're supposed to be somewhat experienced with to some kind of useful degree from the get go. Or skinning, climb, forage, scan, hunt...etc. This is totally not just for "people who want to kill".
I think you've missed my point. The skills you've mentioned are all relatively trivial to raise in-game. In comparison, the combat skills are both much more dangerous and much more tedious to raise.
They're also harder to raise with CGP...because they're capped. The point is there are plenty of players (and their characters) who don't necessarily even want to raise their combat skills...but will still have an interest in skill bumping...so I think it's pretty good all round.
(Omg. I can't wait...."So...potential employee...what are you good at?" "Oh...My Pa taught me a thing or two about making weapons!" rather than... "I think somewhere...deep inside my soul...I feel a nagging potential in me for sword crafting."
Quote from: jstorrie on March 01, 2012, 08:51:26 PM
In comparison, the combat skills are both much more dangerous and much more tedious to raise.
With the exception of sap/backstab, I'd say much more tedious than dangerous. But your point stands. While it would be nice to be able to start the game with a decent score in ride/contact/cooking, given how fast and easily those skills improve it feels like a waste to burn an entire point on them for a single bump when you could instead invest the point into a skill that is relatively difficult or costly to raise (like backstab, poisoning or crafting skills with expensive materials). I know it's probably considered bad and wrong value a skill based on metagame considerations like that, but the skill bump system is inherently metagamish. (opposed to, say, a system that granted skills based on character age).
Regardless, the system as Nyr's post describes it is "good enough" for me. I'd definitely at least want to try to roll a character under it, and the associated karma burn might even inspire me to stick with a character that I might otherwise decide is boring with in the first day of play. But for the playtest, I can't see myself apping another character, waiting another six days, and having the goal posts move again.
Quote from: Maso on March 01, 2012, 09:24:23 PM
(Omg. I can't wait...."So...potential employee...what are you good at?" "Oh...My Pa taught me a thing or two about making weapons!" rather than... "I think somewhere...deep inside my soul...I feel a nagging potential in me for sword crafting."
Wouldn't it be more effective, in this case, to just spend 2 CGP on subguild_weaponsmith?
Quote from: jstorrie on March 01, 2012, 09:54:44 PM
Quote from: Maso on March 01, 2012, 09:24:23 PM
(Omg. I can't wait...."So...potential employee...what are you good at?" "Oh...My Pa taught me a thing or two about making weapons!" rather than... "I think somewhere...deep inside my soul...I feel a nagging potential in me for sword crafting."
Wouldn't it be more effective, in this case, to just spend 2 CGP on subguild_weaponsmith?
That doesn't make you any better at it from the start. Just allows for you to do more later on down the road.
Quote from: Maso on March 01, 2012, 09:24:23 PM
(Omg. I can't wait...."So...potential employee...what are you good at?" "Oh...My Pa taught me a thing or two about making weapons!" rather than... "I think somewhere...deep inside my soul...I feel a nagging potential in me for sword crafting."
It's a little off topic, but I've always thought that explaining subguilds as a desire to learn something, rather than 'a nagging potentioal deep in someone's soul' is an easier way to rp it. RP'ing it this way especially makes sense when you're looking at the context of your PC seeking employment from a merchant house, where you're likely to start at the bottom of the totem pole, much like a mechanic apprentice IRL who takes the job because he has an interest in mechanics, not because he has a luminous compulsion towards car engines.
The skill bumps will be a cool way for people who desperately want to play a PC that learned skills in the past, although I doubt I'd ever bump anything except a weapons skill.
I think it just allows for a little more flexibility in character personalities and realism. Not everyone gets to do what they 'want', sometimes they just have to do what they can do. So it's nice to be able to have a character that has other aspirations besides sewing...in fact...they hate sewing...but they were taught sewing by the Ma so they can use that to make some 'sid in Kadius while they plan world domination. Yes this can be got round...your character could say they want to sew and be lying...but why find RP comprimises for code restrictions when you can just play a character as you actually want to with support from the code?
When you apply for a skillbumped character, let's say you ask for a bump to a skill that starts at apprentice for your chosen guild. Would it be bumped to journeyman, or are skills reduced to novice before bumps are applied?
lol. Yes, they're reduced to novice.
That's kind of silly.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on March 03, 2012, 11:17:42 PM
lol. Yes, they're reduced to novice.
That makes no sense to me. The code should take into account racial/regional skill bumps and apply them either before or stack them on after the CGP skill bumps.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on March 03, 2012, 11:17:42 PM
lol. Yes, they're reduced to novice.
I, too, would like to interpret this statement as totally true and sincere. ;)
Would be nice if someone could make a compilation post consisting of all the major changes, etc.
Not sure what major changes you mean. The post in staff announcements is up to date.
It would be cool if a staff member would clarify exactly how skillbumps are currently working (what skills can be bumped x amount of times, whether or not they're reduced to novice before bumps are applied, etc etc)
I clarified it, based on a post from Friday who has recieved said bumps, earlier in the thread. Which is why I laughed. Because everyone keeps asking the same damn questions a hundred times.
Probably because it's a 15 page thread with no unified source of up-to-date information that provides answers to all the questions.
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,42571.0.html
Quote from: Delirium on March 04, 2012, 09:54:46 PM
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,42571.0.html
That particular thread answers neither of my questions, which, evidently, some other people also have.
Oh. Well, hopefully it helped a little.
Quote from: HavokBlue on March 04, 2012, 09:56:17 PM
Quote from: Delirium on March 04, 2012, 09:54:46 PM
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,42571.0.html
That particular thread answers neither of my questions, which, evidently, some other people also have.
It seems to answer one of your questions.
Quote from: Adhira on January 02, 2012, 09:08:09 PM
In addition skill bumps will be allowed via the special application process based on the guidelines previously outlined by Morgenes:
This will give them the option to bump starting skills one 'level' of mastery per CGP spent. If this would cause them to branch, they would NOT get access to those branched skills. Only starting skills are available to be bumped. Skills that are available to everyone with training (like ride, pilot and watch) would be available for bumping, the initial buy on those would be one CGP.
Some skills will need to be limited/restricted from being bumped. For instance, weapon skills will not be bump-able more than one or two at most. Offense/defense will not be an option.
Quote from: Adhira on February 29, 2012, 02:31:49 PM
To add to this. Skills such as hide, sneak and steal are also subject to the two bump maximum.
As for your second question, we do not skillreset people prior to doing skill boosts.
Thanks, I appreciate the clarification.
Would someone be willing to point me to where there's a summary of everything involved with this extended subguild implementation? Or if one doesn't exist, list all the changes in general? I didn't want to read through 15 pages of thread... :P
Quote from: Delirium on March 04, 2012, 09:54:46 PM
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,42571.0.html
About 5 posts up. ;)
Oh, thanks. :P I guess I have a few more questions then.
How long does it take before you can regenerate one CGP?
If it's through the special application process, should I expect it to take as long as normal special applications? (Basically, should I make a character while I'm waiting?)
How do you know how many CGP that you have? (I assume based on karma, but once you've already used some, can you find out how much you have left?)
Does it matter what subguild you pick before the extended subguild is applied to your character once approved?
To the best of my knowledge...
CGP aren't implemented yet, so don't worry about that, at this stage.
I believe that if you app for an extended subguild it does not take as long as a normal special application, provided you aren't asking for anything outside the guidelines set forth.
CGP is directly equivalent to the amount of karma you have. 8 karma, 8 CGP to spend.
The last question... good question. I have no idea! You'd probably receive instructions from staff in that regard, during the application process.
CGP are not implemented. Ignore any thought of those.
You are applying for a special application. You can ask for either an extended subguild OR up to 3 'points' worth of skill bumps as per the outline in the staff announcements.
If you app for an extended subguild you will be told to choose any subguild at character generation and the process that will happen to get it changed once you have made the pc.
Quote from: Adhira on April 04, 2012, 05:42:36 AM
CGP are not implemented. Ignore any thought of those.
You are applying for a special application. You can ask for either an extended subguild OR up to 3 'points' worth of skill bumps as per the outline in the staff announcements.
If you app for an extended subguild you will be told to choose any subguild at character generation and the process that will happen to get it changed once you have made the pc.
If I have three karma and I app a human Rukkian do I only have one skill point/extended subguild point or 3? I remember some thread where it said options 3 karma and below wouldn't use CGP. But then an earlier post by Morgenes seemed to say the opposite.
???
And will desert elf magickers now be three karma or still just two to play?
Weren't delf magickers always three karma +?
No, Desert Elf is 1 karma, and Rukkian/Viv are 2. So 2 was the minimum, I think.
Quote from: SpyGuy on April 05, 2012, 03:45:29 AM
Quote from: Adhira on April 04, 2012, 05:42:36 AM
CGP are not implemented. Ignore any thought of those.
You are applying for a special application. You can ask for either an extended subguild OR up to 3 'points' worth of skill bumps as per the outline in the staff announcements.
If you app for an extended subguild you will be told to choose any subguild at character generation and the process that will happen to get it changed once you have made the pc.
If I have three karma and I app a human Rukkian do I only have one skill point/extended subguild point or 3? I remember some thread where it said options 3 karma and below wouldn't use CGP. But then an earlier post by Morgenes seemed to say the opposite.
???
And will desert elf magickers now be three karma or still just two to play?
At the risk of repeating Adhira, CGP are not implemented. Ignore any thought of these.
Your karma doesn't matter for the extended subguilds. Someone with 0 karma can app for an extended subguild at this point because it is all done with special applications. The rest of your question and concerns have no bearing at all right now because CGP are not implemented.
Quote from: Nyr on April 05, 2012, 08:34:56 AM
Your karma doesn't matter for the extended subguilds. Someone with 0 karma can app for an extended subguild at this point because it is all done with special applications. The rest of your question and concerns have no bearing at all right now because CGP are not implemented.
Act Now for Maximum Pwnage. ;)
So I could do a half-giant ranger slipknife with zero karma!
Theoretically.
No, because that would be a double spec-app. You either spec app for something you'd normally need to spec app for, or spec app for a subguild.
Here's an email I got.
"Ralken,
If you want anything other than simply an extended subguild, it is not allowed with this trial period. We'd have to take off the ********** (or you'd have to pick a different subguild).
Nyr
Armageddon Staff"
Quote from: MeTekillot on April 05, 2012, 09:21:18 PM
No, because that would be a double spec-app. You either spec app for something you'd normally need to spec app for, or spec app for a subguild.
Here's an email I got.
"Ralken,
If you want anything other than simply an extended subguild, it is not allowed with this trial period. We'd have to take off the ********** (or you'd have to pick a different subguild).
Nyr
Armageddon Staff"
And my dreams of a Tregil Psionicist/Sorcerer/Master Tailor who makes bikinis from the skins of their butchered kind, drained to full their magicks, have been deferred.
The Slipknife help file says:
QuoteThey strike fear in others with their knack for delivering a fatal dose of something nasty to their targets, and can attain a level of skill in these areas second only to the Assassin.
Can someone clarify? Does that mean the Slipknife gets Poisoning?
That's probably a safe guess. The only thing that trips me up is the last part.
Quote from: Kismetic on June 22, 2012, 12:18:49 AM
That's probably a safe guess. The only thing that trips me up is the last part.
Trips you up? How so? Please elaborate... ???
No can do. Sorry, I shouldn't have even said that. I think it's fair to assume with that wording that this subguild gets poisoning, but I might get spanked for saying that. ;)
The last part says that his skill level in those skills are better than any other guild that gets them, except fro the assassin guild.
Just a question to the players re: extended subguild apps... I'm seeing in prior times approvals within 1-3 days and getting jealous and saw another recently approved in 1.5 days or so :P... been a little over a week with mine and I was wondering if that's normal in your guys' experience?
Gonna wait at least another week before I ask the staff if its not being overlooked on accident because I know they're all volunteers and I do really appreciate it... but just checking with you guys to see your experience.
Don't bother asking till 30 days have passed.
No, really, extended subs are still special apps and on the bottom of the stack just above account notes.
Adhira will get to them when she has a chance.
Quote from: X-D on August 17, 2012, 08:39:17 PM
Don't bother asking till 30 days have passed.
No, really, extended subs are still special apps and on the bottom of the stack just above account notes.
Adhira will get to them when she has a chance.
I thought I saw somewhere that ext sub apps were just a tiny bit higher priority than special apps.
They are, but they are still special apps, and can still take a while since they require an admin to approve them.
More delegation required.
Be the change you want to see: apply for staff.
okidoki thanks for the responses
Quote from: Maso on August 17, 2012, 09:27:44 PM
More delegation required.
More patience required.
Quote from: Nyr on August 18, 2012, 07:48:23 AM
Quote from: Maso on August 17, 2012, 09:27:44 PM
More delegation required.
More patience required.
fyi I hope you know Maso doesn't speak for all of us. I, for one, honor my staff overlords.
But... Armageddon is the functional equivalent of a crack factory, with many users banging on your doors, always looking for more when their stash runs dry. In a way... its a compliment as to how good your product is.
Also any chance that the karma switch between Wind/Shadow Elem's set up so next reboot kicks it into place?
edit: wrong thread
Quote from: Ktavialt on August 18, 2012, 02:24:51 PM
Also any chance that the karma switch between Wind/Shadow Elem's set up so next reboot kicks it into place?
Pretty sure that's been in for a bit now. And by "pretty sure" I mean that my guild options have changed.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on August 18, 2012, 05:11:06 PM
Quote from: Ktavialt on August 18, 2012, 02:24:51 PM
Also any chance that the karma switch between Wind/Shadow Elem's set up so next reboot kicks it into place?
Pretty sure that's been in for a bit now. And by "pretty sure" I mean that my guild options have changed.
That is weird. Mine have not. I can still pick Wind Elementalist but not Shadow Elementalist.
Quote from: Ktavialt on August 18, 2012, 06:37:19 PM
Quote from: brytta.leofa on August 18, 2012, 05:11:06 PM
Quote from: Ktavialt on August 18, 2012, 02:24:51 PM
Also any chance that the karma switch between Wind/Shadow Elem's set up so next reboot kicks it into place?
Pretty sure that's been in for a bit now. And by "pretty sure" I mean that my guild options have changed.
That is weird. Mine have not. I can still pick Wind Elementalist but not Shadow Elementalist.
Yeah, mine has been updated as well.
Quote from: Ktavialt on August 18, 2012, 06:37:19 PM
Quote from: brytta.leofa on August 18, 2012, 05:11:06 PM
Quote from: Ktavialt on August 18, 2012, 02:24:51 PM
Also any chance that the karma switch between Wind/Shadow Elem's set up so next reboot kicks it into place?
Pretty sure that's been in for a bit now. And by "pretty sure" I mean that my guild options have changed.
That is weird. Mine have not. I can still pick Wind Elementalist but not Shadow Elementalist.
On ask the staff it was indicated that this will change for you when you log in to a PC.
Quote from: MorgenesIf you know you have this situation you can also submit a request and we can fix them for you. But please only do this if you don't have a living character and have the karma for shadow elementalist but don't have the option.
If you have an active PC, it automatically changed for you when you logged in after the last reboot.
If you do not have a living PC it will not automatically change for you until you log into a new PC.
If you want to play a Drovian, you need to send in a request to have staff change it for you manually.
Just wondering:
Why not set up extended subguilds as options within char gen for the time being, until the CGP changes are finished? That seems like it might help with the special app load some.
Couldn't extended subguilds be added into char gen relatively easily, just like regular subguilds?
But then there'd be no restriction on how many you could play, so everyone would have them on every character.