Discussion thread - Extended Subguilds

[Kol]

I thought originally all master crafter subguilds would be be able to mastercraft?

The help for Master Tailor and Master and Weaponsmith say "unique designs" which makes it pretty clear that they can.  The subguilds for Master Crafter, Master Armorsmith, and Master Jeweler do not have this, or similar, verbage.  It would be nice if some consistent verbage was used so that down the line someone doesn't have to ferret it out.  Now, if it was left out because only 2 of 5 Master get master crafting...that would make many pandas sad.

The help-files for these sub-guilds were written by several members of staff, so the wording in one or two may differ from others, I would think, however, considering they are 'Master-craft' Sub-guilds,  you can reach master in all of them.

[Dark Fate]

I do not think journeyman is too high a rank for weapon skill bumping. I've attained that in about ten or so days of semi-regular hunting, no sparring involved. Since you're spending karma for this, and the character is starting with some life experience, I believe it's fine. You also have to remember that most folks aren't going to have a heap of CGP, so by investing much into a weapon skill, they're neglecting complementary combat abilities which will have to be caught up in order to fight at one's full potential.

Beyond journeyman, I would probably put up a wall or increase the cost to 2 CGP.

Seems viable to do that with a warrior, sure. Other guilds? Not so much at all. Weapon skills increase extremely slowly compared to pretty much everything else.

For one guild, two weapon skill bumps could bring the skill to advanced.

Second, I have a near twenty day played warrior who spars regularly, and does not have a journeyman weapon skill yet.

Someone could start with what seems like the longest, hardest skill to raise already more then halfway done.
The others don't take -ages- like weapons skills do.

That's something I don't really like...

[Ktavialt]

Well I do not know about you guys but I, for one, welcome our chalton hide boots and plain simple shirt "I can take down a gith already nyah nyah nyah" overlords.

[Nyr]

Does the fact that these are special app mean that we can apply for them while still having living characters?

Yes, you can special app at any point, anyway (even if you are already playing a character).

exceptions:

you have already special apped 3 times in a year
you have special apped once already in the past month period

Would it irk you (staff) if we applied as such but with no intent to store or otherwise have our current characters expire?

I don't know.  I assume since it works the same as a special app, we don't care, though you will have to be setup by staff afterwards.  Consequently, you may want to coordinate that setup in advance with staff (whenever it may be).

What would happen if, while such a special application was processing, a karma character was applied for through the regular system?  Would CGP's be "spent" and potentially invalidate the special application?

Yes. The 3 special apps per year is still in place, even if special apping for these subguilds/skill bumps.  While this process is in the special app trial phase your karma points will not be deducted, so this is a trade off.

[Adhira]

Feel free to submit your special applications in advance, be aware that if you are intending to make them months down the track the coded system may come in to place before then.  If you're not intending to play your extended karma or take your skill bumps within the next month I highly recommend waiting till closer to the time as the coded process may well be in place.

Currently we try and resolve special applications within a month.  On the announcement thread I noted that special applications for extended subguilds or skill bumps will be resolved within a maximum of seven days.  I expect that most will be resolved within 2 days with the extra time needed for any correspondence re: set up times or queries.  This process should be relatively straight forward and simple.  Keep your applications within the boundaries (ie don't go asking for extras like mutant eyes, or super height) and there should be no problems with working through them.

[brytta.leofa]

Okay, one small complaint critique:  Outdoorsman seems to give the same skills as Hunter, only probably with higher caps.  The price (3 CXP) seems a little high to this noob.

Maybe an Advanced archery cap is worth it.  Or maybe it gives Country Hide (which would be suitably terrifyin', and well worth 3 doubloons).

[Adhira]

We don't think the price for Outdoorsman is too high. 

We are using this trial period to assess the CGP, if it proves to be too high we'll consider changing it.  However you can assume that the CGP shows a direct relationship to how powerful we consider both the skill mix AND the skill caps in each extended subguild.

[Nyr]

Also, we may still be tweaking the helpfiles.  So there's that.

[Sunburned]

I do not think journeyman is too high a rank for weapon skill bumping. I've attained that in about ten or so days of semi-regular hunting, no sparring involved. Since you're spending karma for this, and the character is starting with some life experience, I believe it's fine. You also have to remember that most folks aren't going to have a heap of CGP, so by investing much into a weapon skill, they're neglecting complementary combat abilities which will have to be caught up in order to fight at one's full potential.

Beyond journeyman, I would probably put up a wall or increase the cost to 2 CGP.

Seems viable to do that with a warrior, sure. Other guilds? Not so much at all. Weapon skills increase extremely slowly compared to pretty much everything else.

For one guild, two weapon skill bumps could bring the skill to advanced.

Second, I have a near twenty day played warrior who spars regularly, and does not have a journeyman weapon skill yet.

Someone could start with what seems like the longest, hardest skill to raise already more then halfway done.
The others don't take -ages- like weapons skills do.

That's something I don't really like...

All the clues necessary for understanding why your weapon skills are low, Dark Fate, are within these posts.

[Kol]

I do not think journeyman is too high a rank for weapon skill bumping. I've attained that in about ten or so days of semi-regular hunting, no sparring involved. Since you're spending karma for this, and the character is starting with some life experience, I believe it's fine. You also have to remember that most folks aren't going to have a heap of CGP, so by investing much into a weapon skill, they're neglecting complementary combat abilities which will have to be caught up in order to fight at one's full potential.

Beyond journeyman, I would probably put up a wall or increase the cost to 2 CGP.

Seems viable to do that with a warrior, sure. Other guilds? Not so much at all. Weapon skills increase extremely slowly compared to pretty much everything else.

For one guild, two weapon skill bumps could bring the skill to advanced.

Second, I have a near twenty day played warrior who spars regularly, and does not have a journeyman weapon skill yet.

Someone could start with what seems like the longest, hardest skill to raise already more then halfway done.
The others don't take -ages- like weapons skills do.

That's something I don't really like...

Are you more likely to learn how to use a gun quickly in a situation where your life depends on it, or in a firing range where there's no real danger?

[Marauder Moe]

Can't tell if supposed to be rhetorical question...

[brytta.leofa]

We don't think the price for Outdoorsman is too high.

My big complaint would be that it seems to give warriors only one smallish benefit over hunter...folks are talkin' like Warrior+Outdoorsman will be the ultimate hybrid ranger, but that don't seem to be so.  The case for assassins or mages is probably stronger.  (But I have limited experience and information compared to y'all.)

[Kol]

Can't tell if supposed to be rhetorical question...

Poor choice of example, might have been better if I had used something like : Your more likely to learn how to use a shield effectively if your life depends on it, than if your life is safe with the use of padding and fake weapons.

[FantasyWriter]

Warrior/outdoorsman? Psht.... Ranger/Aggressor is where it's at. With three skill points applied to a certain combat skill.
That's what I'd do if I weren't loving the poo out of my PC.

[Is Friday]

Are you more likely to learn how to use a gun quickly in a situation where your life depends on it, or in a firing range where there's no real danger?

I'll chime in, since I'm a weapons & combat oriented martial arts instructor.

When you're first learning skills of any kind adding stress of any kind means that you are likely to fuck up the proper technique and learn the skill incorrectly/never grasp the basic concepts.

You need to learn basic concepts and perfect your form with skills, (especially combat-oriented ones,) while in a controlled environment before you introduce other factors.

But essentially: You're going to need both.

Ideally, you're going to take someone with no combat training and familiarize them with fighting in this order. (If we're talking about one skill here, i.e. swinging a sword. Let's not get into shields, advanced tactics, working with others in combat.)

1.) Introduce them to the weapon. Let them hold it. Have them carry it everywhere. They need to be familiar with its weight, its feel, and how it functions.
2.) Have them practice basic attacks/parries so that they can take their knowledge from 1 and apply it. They also need to perfect their rudimentary skills in a slow-paced, controlled environment.
3.) Ramp up the difficulty until they can control their basic attacks/defenses at a higher pace/aggressive level. Add in X factors, i.e. surprise attacks, multiple opponents, etc.

So, believe it or not, you shouldn't be tossing Byn Runners into the fire on Day 1 if you don't plan on them getting hurt/adopting bad habits. That's just a function of the game for playability. You can sit there all day and say "OH WE SMASH OUR NEW RUNNERS BECAUSE WE'RE HAAAARD!" That's stupid. Why would you bother investing in Runners if you're just going to bring them in for sparring dummies? Granted, this might happen to a few that the Byn Sergeant doesn't "see anything" in--by and large this is probably a poor choice.

How are you supposed to make sid, after all, if you never have a unit that is fully functional? This means: mostly uninjured, able to train when not taking in contracts, and enough comraderie to take care of each other out there in "the shit".

edit: I'll also add that in the example of guns....

People are not likely to "learn" guns by simply being handed a gun and being told to fend off a pack of wolves. What they're going to do is panic, try to fire the gun as best they learned from Hollywood, and miss a lot. Marksmanship fundamentals aren't something to be learned "on the fly". In order to accurately fire a gun it's actually quite the opposite of most combat-oriented skills in which you apply no aggression--in fact, aggression just makes you fuck it up. There's a bazillion bad habits you can develop by not learning in a controlled environment--and you're going to "skill cap" at a pretty low level if you learn that way. You'll probably never realize wtf you're doing wrong, too.

[Nyr]

We don't think the price for Outdoorsman is too high.

My big complaint would be that it seems to give warriors only one smallish benefit over hunter...folks are talkin' like Warrior+Outdoorsman will be the ultimate hybrid ranger, but that don't seem to be so.  The case for assassins or mages is probably stronger.  (But I have limited experience and information compared to y'all.)

Like I said, we probably need to tweak some help files.  Just like it wasn't blatantly obvious that Master Trader comes with cavilish, some of these others need to be tweaked as well to allude to what is really there.  In this case, it might be worth it to note that there are at least two skills that the extended subguild of Outdoorsman has that are not at once readily apparent by the helpfile.

[Sunburned]

Are you more likely to learn how to use a gun quickly in a situation where your life depends on it, or in a firing range where there's no real danger?

I'll chime in, since I'm a weapons & combat oriented martial arts instructor.

When you're first learning skills of any kind adding stress of any kind means that you are likely to fuck up the proper technique and learn the skill incorrectly/never grasp the basic concepts.

You need to learn basic concepts and perfect your form with skills, (especially combat-oriented ones,) while in a controlled environment before you introduce other factors.

But essentially: You're going to need both.

Ideally, you're going to take someone with no combat training and familiarize them with fighting in this order. (If we're talking about one skill here, i.e. swinging a sword. Let's not get into shields, advanced tactics, working with others in combat.)

1.) Introduce them to the weapon. Let them hold it. Have them carry it everywhere. They need to be familiar with its weight, its feel, and how it functions.
2.) Have them practice basic attacks/parries so that they can take their knowledge from 1 and apply it. They also need to perfect their rudimentary skills in a slow-paced, controlled environment.
3.) Ramp up the difficulty until they can control their basic attacks/defenses at a higher pace/aggressive level. Add in X factors, i.e. surprise attacks, multiple opponents, etc.

So, believe it or not, you shouldn't be tossing Byn Runners into the fire on Day 1 if you don't plan on them getting hurt/adopting bad habits. That's just a function of the game for playability. You can sit there all day and say "OH WE SMASH OUR NEW RUNNERS BECAUSE WE'RE HAAAARD!" That's stupid. Why would you bother investing in Runners if you're just going to bring them in for sparring dummies? Granted, this might happen to a few that the Byn Sergeant doesn't "see anything" in--by and large this is probably a poor choice.

How are you supposed to make sid, after all, if you never have a unit that is fully functional? This means: mostly uninjured, able to train when not taking in contracts, and enough comraderie to take care of each other out there in "the shit".

edit: I'll also add that in the example of guns....

People are not likely to "learn" guns by simply being handed a gun and being told to fend off a pack of wolves. What they're going to do is panic, try and fire the gun as best they learned from Hollywood, and miss a lot. Marksmanship fundamentals aren't something to be learned "on the fly". In order to accurately fire a gun it's actually quite the opposite of most combat-oriented skills in which you apply no aggression--in fact, aggression just makes you fuck it up. There's a bazillion bad habits you can develop by not learning in a controlled environment--and you're going to "skill cap" at a pretty low level if you learn that way. You'll probably never realize wtf you're doing wrong, too.

That said, the method by which weapon skills increase IG is incongruent with the reality described by Is Friday.  But I digress...

[brytta.leofa]

In this case, it might be worth it to note that there are at least two skills that the extended subguild of Outdoorsman has that are not at once readily apparent by the helpfile.

Ah, gotcha.

> watch helpfiles
> change ldesc is here, looking nonchalant.

[Is Friday]

Yeah, not to mention the fact that most people don't really roleplay all the little things that go with close-quarters combat. Most players gloss over the bazillion boring things that go with it, but that's okay--it's a game. They just need to be aware that yes, injuries are a large part of training, training stupidly won't make you harder--it'll make you more injured and possibly never able to perform at the same level that you once did.

And before someone points me to the Spartans: Let's look at their life expectancy, their mortality rate amongst young warriors being trained up, and just how much "care" went into each aspect of combat being learned. It's not like they half-assed anything. Everything had a purpose. They did not send out their warriors to tangle with wolves on a regular basis. Most training was in a "controlled environment"--it just happened to be a truly brutal, masochistic environment. (They did, however, have a rite of passage involving murdering someone and often encouraged stealing to eat--discouraging being caught by whipping them.)

[Is Friday]

Can't tell if supposed to be rhetorical question...

Poor choice of example, might have been better if I had used something like : Your more likely to learn how to use a shield effectively if your life depends on it, than if your life is safe with the use of padding and fake weapons.

If you mean to say: My Bynners will take this more seriously if we use real weapons, then I'll call BS on that. I'm fairly certain that every Zalanthan understands the implications of fighting, combat, and death wholesale just by walking down a road in Allanak. (Not Tuluk!) Life outside the walls is barbaric. Life inside the walls is often genocidal. Someone learning CQC in a military/hunting organization is going to take it seriously and learn the skills. They're going to value what they're learning, because there is no free lunch in Zalanthas like there is in the real world.

Shit, if you go to Africa and teach a kid there how to use an AK-47 more effectively--I guarantee you he's going to absorb everything he can from you. He's going to value that knowledge because it is applicable to his everyday life.

Zalanthans are much more in touch with violence than your average Westerner of today--don't think of them as the soft creatures we are.

[DustMight]

Is there wilderness quit for outdoorsmen?  That would be awesome and would be my only selected subguild forever it had it.

[Yam]

Is there wilderness quit for outdoorsmen?  That would be awesome and would be my only selected subguild forever it had it.

Ahira already said nope

[DustMight]

Is there wilderness quit for outdoorsmen?  That would be awesome and would be my only selected subguild forever it had it.

Ahira already said nope

Thanks.   

[Necro]

subguild sorcery but no subguild rangerquit.....
....

sigh


at this point, i'd rather see armageddon go skill-based with no guild or subguild requirements, just karma reqs for skill trees. this is getting kinda silly, imho.

[janeshephard]

subguild sorcery but no subguild rangerquit.....
....

sigh


at this point, i'd rather see armageddon go skill-based with no guild or subguild requirements, just karma reqs for skill trees. this is getting kinda silly, imho.

Karma required for magic or skill bumps and all skills can be improved upon slowly does seem kinda cool. I don't think we'll see it in arm 1 though.