Crime in the known.

[ghostymudy]

Playing the game and spending plenty of time in a supposedly rougher part of the world has me thinking, is there enough crime in the cities known world or even too much?

Perhaps I am a little unknowledgeable on this due to my relative newness and off peak playtimes but in the area where I play atleast I find that there is barely any "lesser" crime such as muggings or burglary. I don't even hear about this kind of thing happening, only about deaths and suchlike. It feels like any occurence of this "lesser crime" is carried out by those who are extremely skilled about it, never being caught.

So my question is do you think there should be more or less crime, initial OOC thoughs of "omgno, plz don't steal my l00t" aside and what kinds of crime are seemingly too uncommon/too frequent for this kind of game world? I do not mean pre-meditated and well executed assasinations, I mean do we need more mugging club-totting scum, lightfingered alley-skulking pickpockets and furniture towing burglars?

No specific accounts of crime, in order to avoid the spreading of IC information, please. Maybe something more than "yes" or "no", too.

[HavokBlue]

I'm under the impression that most people refrain from what you call "lesser crime" outside of say... the Labyrinth, because the risk vs reward ratio is bad. Unless you're Synthesis, you will probably have a hard time making a living as a pickpocket, for example, without getting arrested. As far as burglary goes... If you aren't noticing it, it's because the burglars are smart.

[Spoon]

I think the cities would benefit from the authorities being less efficient and more corrupt.

On the other hand, the crimcode currently prevents (most of the time) people losing their PCs to random killing sprees.

Things have gotten a lot better with the 'night' implementation. The problem is if you fail at crime you're likely to get reported straight to a Templar. I personally think people reporting crime to Templars ought to have one hell of a bribe on them.

[My 2 sids]

Although, muggings and the like certainly belong in Zan I don't think there is a way to get past the OOC factors.  These include: 

players don't like to loose their stuff -- Oh, sure they'll talk about sending out Kudos and such, but they don't pay up simply because someone else scripted a beautiful scene (just look at how many pay bards)

"corruption" is abundant (esp. among PCs) but the cost to play is extraordinary high ( meaning they'll take one's life-time commitment/ hundreds of sids -- but, not even a lowely Private is going to take some fifty-sid, one-time bribe)

PCs know one another.  It'd be one thing if only a few players disregarded a PC wearing a low hood/ face mask to get the description,  but just too many players instantly recognize (even half-way around the known)

PCs don't like maiming.   "Bad guys" don't tend to respond well to a public whipping or loosing a hand or banishment or firing or something (look what happened with enslaving) and so it becomes a game of cat and mouse which only really ends in death.

[Cind]

<edited out some personal crime info, as i'm too much of a dummy to read the original post in its entirety until after posting.>

i don't really care about the fact that this (any) real life week, people are smiling needlessly a lot more, or being noticeably over-gruff, or discriminating a lot more, or discriminating a lot less; I saw a recent explosion of 'gicker hate recently, actually. we're an extremely small representation of the population, although i'm guessing, statistically, we make up a chunk if not most or all of the sorcerors and mindbenders.

and that is why nothing anyone freaking does in the game ever, ever makes me worry or makes me happy about the big picture.

[Nyr]

Although, muggings and the like certainly belong in Zan I don't think there is a way to get past the OOC factors.  These include: 

players don't like to loose their stuff -- Oh, sure they'll talk about sending out Kudos and such, but they don't pay up simply because someone else scripted a beautiful scene (just look at how many pay bards)

Players don't like to lose their stuff to a poor scene or anything they consider to be poor roleplay.  In general, though, I think that the playerbase is more mature than you're giving them credit for.  If you RP a theft, bardic performance, murder, torture scene, etc well, you will reap the benefits of it from at least some players who are not as jaded as you suggest.

"corruption" is abundant (esp. among PCs) but the cost to play is extraordinary high ( meaning they'll take one's life-time commitment/ hundreds of sids -- but, not even a lowely Private is going to take some fifty-sid, one-time bribe)

I agree with the first point on this one as well to an extent.  However, 'sid isn't the only means of bribery, and if you're going to use something to bribe someone, you'd better know your mark better than tossing half a small at them and hoping your problem goes away.  It also depends on what that 50 sid bribe is meant to cover.

PCs know one another.  It'd be one thing if only a few players disregarded a PC wearing a low hood/ face mask to get the description,  but just too many players instantly recognize (even half-way around the known)

I agree with the first part of this as well.  In criminal enterprise, however, one usually expects that stealth skills are involved.  If people are getting your description, you probably screwed up somewhere. 

The biggest criminals are the ones that have moved beyond (or never worried about) coded stealth skills.  They are the folks that pay others to do that stuff for them and take the fall.

PCs don't like maiming.   "Bad guys" don't tend to respond well to a public whipping or loosing a hand or banishment or firing or something (look what happened with enslaving) and so it becomes a game of cat and mouse which only really ends in death.

PCs don't like it, no.  I think players do.  Yes, a PC probably doesn't like the idea of being whipped, losing a hand, being banished, being fired, or being enslaved.  If a PC didn't dislike those sorts of things, more questions would be raised about their quality of RP than not.  The player may not like the fact that their PC got in trouble, got framed, or got caught, but them's the breaks, and if said players don't like having other PCs be mean to their PCs, they can re-read the rules to get staff perspective on this sort of thing.

[Synthesis]

I'm under the impression that most people refrain from what you call "lesser crime" outside of say... the Labyrinth, because the risk vs reward ratio is bad. Unless you're Synthesis, you will probably have a hard time making a living as a pickpocket, for example, without getting arrested. As far as burglary goes... If you aren't noticing it, it's because the burglars are smart.

Hey, even my last pickpocket got executed by a templar the first time he ever got arrested.

[Dar]

Crime is a very rewarding concept that can be done either very badly or very enjoyable to everyone involved, even the victims. Unfortunately, unlike the work of bards, crime does involve secrecy and maintaining if not anonymity, then at least an ability to get away fast enough or sneaky enough to not get caught. Because of that, it is rare to really truly know how spread out crime is unless a criminal screws up.

Problem is that if a criminal is too open. Let's say a mugger instead of burglar. Someone who actually shakes coin off PCs in Allanak in the night. Even if he succeeds and gets away with it, it is only a matter of time before someone somewhere puts a bounty onto him/her. So no matter how corrupt a templar is, it is not the higher up virtual authority that he has to answer to per se, it's all those noblies, agents, merchants, and aides that will talk behind his back about letting go a known criminal. And at that point, it is often more profitable for a templar to brag how he executed a rinthi who dared to look wrong at an aide of Lord Fancypants, then take whatever coin the criminal is offering and endure the public heat.

I've bribed templars with ... coins, a joke, a teapot, a bluff of how important and capable I am, a lie on how pathetic and useless I am. Once I sang to a templar inside a jail ... that more confused him then got me out of there though.

[Titania]

Crime is usually fun depending on many factors.

If you are the law and have no stealth detection,  then not so fun. There is a weird push for you to make contacts and catch criminals and a push for you to be kind of be corrupt and not be efficient  without any real explanation of the contradiction .  Just do it right,  just enough, somehow. Definitely an art and not a science.

If all the interactions you get is your things are gone,  not very fun.
I think if you are basically helpless against low level hide it may be you are tempted to use the only thing you have,  when you get the chance. SMASH.

And of course it depends on who is playing the victims and who is playing the law.

[Iiyola]

Yeah, make something beautiful out of it, and I'm saying that to both parties: If you're the mugger and get caught: make a scene, such as Dar described. I think that stuff is beautiful.

And if you're the victim: well great! Make a storyline out of it!

If you're the law: get bribed! Another amazing reason to enhance your RP!

Don't try to be perfect, people! The greatest characters are the ones with flaws!

[MeTekillot]

It's all too common for someone to try to kill someone else because they took something. I recently saw someone try to put a bounty out on someone else for having their hood up because a dagger disappeared from their belt while they were sitting in a seedy tavern.

[Iiyola]

It's all too common for someone to try to kill someone else because they took something. I recently saw someone try to put a bounty out on someone else for having their hood up because a dagger disappeared from their belt while they were sitting in a seedy tavern.

That's just... dumb.

I'd just find that dude and kick their ass into a corner, extort them, strip em from their clothes and let him run around naked.... well you get the picture.

[Coat of Arms]

Crime rarely really works out on RPIs. It can be done, some players love it, but by and large it isn't worth basing a character around unless you have a burning desire to play a criminal. This is why the 'rinth sees long stretches of stagnation, for instance, and why you can go months between witnessing crime. It's also part of what makes the city elf race somewhat unpopular, making it difficult to get any kind of culture going for them.

Criminal roleplay occupies a space between regular everyday activities and dramatic events. Most players have a subconscious aversion to "bad" actions and an aversion to characters that do these bad things. This aversion does not extend to things like murder and oppression because it's an officially desirable part of the game and makes for a good show, but it neatly covers things like stealing. Many players feel some kind of OOC indignation when witnessing or suffering minor crimes, so they go to absurd lengths to thwart it - often far more than they'd do when it comes to the things mentioned in the game's infamous motto. They play with a morality that isn't really in line with the spirit of the game, leading both to a shortage of general criminals and to an overzealous opposition to them by those who don't play them. Whether these players realize it or not, they make criminal roleplay not worth the effort except for the small handful of players who thrive on that specific style.

If you play an assassin and carry out a succesful hit, you'll probably be applauded for it by other players. If you play a thief, you'll probably find an entire city hating you for stealing someone's mount ticket, your description passed around, and yourself a pariah for what should be commonplace events. Failing a peek roll can end your thieving career as everyone now knows you're a pickpocket (and they will tell everyone, believe me) and you'll have someone codewatching you whenever you're in the presence of other PCs. There are ways around it, but they are so few and so restrictive that most players opt out entirely. I would estimate that there are more psionicists than career pickpockets in the game at any given time.

This isn't exclusive to Armageddon, it happens on all RPIs, but it's more significant here because crime should be a central part of the culture. Ideally it should matter if a rich person walks down an alley in the poorest part of the commons because there should be half a dozen criminal characters supporting that aspect of the game, but there never really is. They never get a chance to establish themselves because most players are wildly against it and stomp it out before it can take hold.

[Iiyola]

This isn't exclusive to Armageddon, it happens on all RPIs, but it's more significant here because crime should be a central part of the culture. Ideally it should matter if a rich person walks down an alley in the poorest part of the commons because there should be half a dozen criminal characters supporting that aspect of the game, but there never really is. They never get a chance to establish themselves because most players are wildly against it and stomp it out before it can take hold.

Hear hear! It would be great if crime wouldn't solely consist of NPC's and echoes.

[Nyr]

Ideally it should matter if a rich person walks down an alley in the poorest part of the commons because there should be half a dozen criminal characters supporting that aspect of the game, but there never really is.

A rich person does not simply walk down an alley in the poorest part of the commons.

I get the point, though.  It's hard playing a criminal.  One would have to focus on being a legitimate businessperson--and one that can be reasoned with, bribed, corrupted, etc--before engaging in theft.

And again, the best criminals are the ones that don't regularly have to use stealth skills (whether that be an occasional thing or something they just never have to stoop to anymore).  They get someone else to do the dirty work.  They create distractions with those people.  Think like an Evil Overlord first, criminal second, if you want to be a successful criminal...because that's probably the only way you're going to succeed without being labeled as a pariah and hunted for twinking out your pickpocket on the wrong dude.

[My 2 sids]

And again, the best criminals are the ones that don't regularly have to use stealth skills (whether that be an occasional thing or something they just never have to stoop to anymore).  They get someone else to do the dirty work.  They create distractions with those people.  Think like an Evil Overlord first, criminal second, if you want to be a successful criminal...because that's probably the only way you're going to succeed without being labeled as a pariah and hunted for twinking out your pickpocket on the wrong dude.

"Best"?  more like idealistic. 

Sorry, but concepts like this (where everyone is a "super" hero/villain/spy) really kill game immersion for me.  The whole idea about having a hierarchical society is everyone isn't special.  Playing a super-complicated, plotting, schemer is fine if playing in a refined society;  but, when talking about living and dying from one meal to the next -- life gets really raw and really simple really quickly.

If the code doesn't support "raw" if the players don't support "raw" if the staff doesn't support "raw" ... the game is not going to have a "raw" flavor.

[Nyr]

And again, the best criminals are the ones that don't regularly have to use stealth skills (whether that be an occasional thing or something they just never have to stoop to anymore).  They get someone else to do the dirty work.  They create distractions with those people.  Think like an Evil Overlord first, criminal second, if you want to be a successful criminal...because that's probably the only way you're going to succeed without being labeled as a pariah and hunted for twinking out your pickpocket on the wrong dude.

"Best"?  more like idealistic. 

I was actually referring to templars, nobles, agents, anyone of significant social and political power (whether it be garnered via sponsored application or via in-game work).

Sorry, but concepts like this (where everyone is a "super" hero/villain/spy) really kill game immersion for me.  The whole idea about having a hierarchical society is everyone isn't special.  Playing a super-complicated, plotting, schemer is fine if playing in a refined society;  but, when talking about living and dying from one meal to the next -- life gets really raw and really simple really quickly.

I don't understand this point.  Can you please clarify?  Are you saying that plotting schemers are antithetical to Zalanthas?

If the code doesn't support "raw" if the players don't support "raw" if the staff doesn't support "raw" ... the game is not going to have a "raw" flavor.

Code does, players do, staff do.  It's harder to do it and you have to play intelligently to be a nobody thief.  If you're interested in trying it out, send in a request and we can give you some pointers on what you could do to improve your criminal playing. If you just want to rail against the code, players, and staff, please go ahead, just keep it clean. 

[Calavera]

If you are playing a criminal type and are running into real OOC stumbling blocks with your criminal RP, I suggest you file a character report. It will probably come to me, because I'm in charge of all the scumbags.

We'll sit down. We'll talk. Maybe we'll shank some people and take a long, romantic walk across the rooftops.

But in all seriousness--I am happy to provide feedback if you are attempting to play a burgeoning criminal and having difficulties. It's part of what being your (un)clanned staff is all about.

[ShaLeah]

If you are playing a criminal type and are running into real OOC stumbling blocks with your criminal RP, I suggest you file a character report. It will probably come to me, because I'm in charge of all the scumbags.

We'll sit down. We'll talk. Maybe we'll shank some people and take a long, romantic walk across the rooftops.

But in all seriousness--I am happy to provide feedback if you are attempting to play a burgeoning criminal and having difficulties. It's part of what being your (un)clanned staff is all about.

And just like a thief I am totally stealing this for my new signature!

[Barsook]

If you are playing a criminal type and are running into real OOC stumbling blocks with your criminal RP, I suggest you file a character report. It will probably come to me, because I'm in charge of all the scumbags.

We'll sit down. We'll talk. Maybe we'll shank some people and take a long, romantic walk across the rooftops.

But in all seriousness--I am happy to provide feedback if you are attempting to play a burgeoning criminal and having difficulties. It's part of what being your (un)clanned staff is all about.

And just like a thief I am totally stealing this for my new signature!

No, I want it!  It's too long. 

[ShaLeah]

If you are playing a criminal type and are running into real OOC stumbling blocks with your criminal RP, I suggest you file a character report. It will probably come to me, because I'm in charge of all the scumbags.

We'll sit down. We'll talk. Maybe we'll shank some people and take a long, romantic walk across the rooftops.

But in all seriousness--I am happy to provide feedback if you are attempting to play a burgeoning criminal and having difficulties. It's part of what being your (un)clanned staff is all about.

And just like a thief I am totally stealing this for my new signature!

No, I want it!  It's too long. 

I cut it up and took out its entrails to get to the soft squishy part of it that made me warm and fuzzy inside.

[HavokBlue]

While I agree with Coat of Arms' points, my experience playing criminals in the recent past is that various people enforcing city law are willing to look the other way given the right incentive.

[Dan]

While I agree with Coat of Arms' points, my experience playing criminals in the recent past is that various people enforcing city law are willing to look the other way given the right incentive.

Very true from my own experience as well. One of the few scenarios where asking for permission might be easier than asking for forgiveness.

[Qzzrbl]

Meh.

My experience (with only one or two exceptions... I've never really played many criminals) has always been as follows:

Commit crime. (fighting, smuggling, etc.)

Get caught.

Get thrown in jail.

Get visited by templar. (For god knows whatever reason. I can't imagine that templars go out and check up on every NPC and VNPC that gets tossed in jail)

Beg. Grovel. Bribe. (Even laid down five hundred coins once after getting caught with spice.)

Get killed anyway.

And I know, a couple of times my char had it coming (didn't really expect much else after stealing a noble's wagon and killing the guards within), but it's the severe punishments for petty crimes I keep getting that make me not wanna bother.

It's pretty much ubertwink or wind up dead.

[Qzzrbl]

And again, the best criminals are the ones that don't regularly have to use stealth skills (whether that be an occasional thing or something they just never have to stoop to anymore).  They get someone else to do the dirty work.  They create distractions with those people.  Think like an Evil Overlord first, criminal second, if you want to be a successful criminal...because that's probably the only way you're going to succeed without being labeled as a pariah and hunted for twinking out your pickpocket on the wrong dude.

And I've just gotta say.... It kinda stinks that you need to be an evil overlord with minions to play a criminal.

Allanak's a pretty nasty place, supposedly. Crime's supposed to be everywhere. Amos Skullthumper -should- be able to slink out of the alleys and mug some non-affiliated commoner for some coin and lay low in 'Rinth for a while without getting a 1000 'sid bounty placed on his head because said non-clanned commoner was buddy-buddy and slipped a word-for-word sdesc to some high-up noble/templar that should be above the concerns of lower rabble in the first place.

I've seen it happen quite a few times.