Crime in the known.

[HavokBlue]

Meh.

My experience (with only one or two exceptions... I've never really played many criminals) has always been as follows:

Commit crime. (fighting, smuggling, etc.)

Get caught.

Get thrown in jail.

Get visited by templar. (For god knows whatever reason. I can't imagine that templars go out and check up on every NPC and VNPC that gets tossed in jail)

Beg. Grovel. Bribe. (Even laid down five hundred coins once after getting caught with spice.)

Get killed anyway.

And I know, a couple of times my char had it coming (didn't really expect much else after stealing a noble's wagon and killing the guards within), but it's the severe punishments for petty crimes I keep getting that make me not wanna bother.

It's pretty much ubertwink or wind up dead.

I kind of think this falls into the "Ask for permission instead of beg for forgiveness" category. Militia/templar PCs in Allanak, for example, are often willing to accommodate crime within reason provided you're already paying bribes or protection fees or whatever.

Victims will always react with extreme negativity to any sort of crime. It's up to everybody else to laugh at them and tell them to stop being batshit insane when they put a three large bounty on a pickpocket.

[roughneck]

Large bounties on small crimes used to really irritate me.  Not so much anymore.

Part of the reason, I'm sure, is that there is a very large number of pc's who can put up a couple of large without even feeling it.  So, for a rich pc, it is a reasonable IC reaction because it's a very public way of setting the precedent, 'fuck with me and you get fucked up.'  Steal from me, touch me, harm any of my people and I will escalate.  It especially makes sense for organizations that don't want to be stolen from continually.  If you let the small stuff slide, you're just inviting the bigger stuff.

It makes the stakes higher, but what's wrong with that?

The only real problem I see with playing a criminal is how hard it is to, 'lay low' in a game with a limited number of pc's.  Unless you are hiding or locked up in a room somewhere literally ALL the time, someone is going to recognize you, even if they've never met you before.

[Cutthroat]

Get visited by templar. (For god knows whatever reason. I can't imagine that templars go out and check up on every NPC and VNPC that gets tossed in jail)

The short and sweet answer is PC interaction. While that's not necessarily an IC reason, I think many people agree that chatting with a templar is probably going to be more fun than idling for an hour or more, even if the interaction doesn't end in the criminal's favor.

As for severe punishments for petty crimes, in my opinion, they simply shouldn't be happening. Whether they do or not, I can't fairly say, as I can't remember experiencing or noticing that personally. I think what might be useful for players in law-enforcement roles is a "wanted level" guide which is basically a table listing crimes in rough order of severity, and the typical response in Allanak and Tuluk. It wouldn't fit every situation, obviously, and one might want to adjust for repeat offenders, non-humans, etc., but it would be a rough way to define the situation before delving into the specifics.

[My 2 sids]

Large bounties on small crimes used to really irritate me.  Not so much anymore.

Part of the reason, I'm sure, is that there is a very large number of pc's who can put up a couple of large without even feeling it.  So, for a rich pc, it is a reasonable IC reaction because it's a very public way of setting the precedent, 'fuck with me and you get fucked up.'  Steal from me, touch me, harm any of my people and I will escalate.  It especially makes sense for organizations that don't want to be stolen from continually.  If you let the small stuff slide, you're just inviting the bigger stuff.

It makes the stakes higher, but what's wrong with that?

The only real problem I see with playing a criminal is how hard it is to, 'lay low' in a game with a limited number of pc's.  Unless you are hiding or locked up in a room somewhere literally ALL the time, someone is going to recognize you, even if they've never met you before.

Two things:

One, even Nenyuk couldn't allow the resources it would take to hunt down and pay out large rewards every time some house-servant's hip purse strings got cut.

Two, PCs need to play realistically.  If one has enough funds that paying a 50 - 100 sid fine is "nothing" than its time for them to move past "I scrape by as a grubber and sometimes must steal for my bread"

[roughneck]

Two things:

One, even Nenyuk couldn't allow the resources it would take to hunt down and pay out large rewards every time some house-servant's hip purse strings got cut.

Two, PCs need to play realistically.  If one has enough funds that paying a 50 - 100 sid fine is "nothing" than its time for them to move past "I scrape by as a grubber and sometimes must steal for my bread"

I agree that putting a large bounty on a petty pickpocket is unreasonable, (I have never encountered this, although others may have) putting a bounty out on someone who breaks into your home or mugs you is very understandable, given human nature and a game world filled with violence.  I don't see Zalanthas as a place where passive victims are going to get very far.  Also, sometimes pickpockets steal things that are worth 3-5 thousand coins or more, which totally justifies hunting someone down, IMO.

It's like bitching about people in texas who shoot burglars.  Is it an unnecessary escalation of violence?  Hell yes.  Will it ever stop unless there are very harsh consequences to harming trespassers and stronger controls on guns and violence?  No.  I suppose you could argue that the situation we're discussing is more like a rich texan having his wallet stolen, the act captured on camera, and that rich texan putting a ten thousand dollar bounty on his head.  Well guess what?  If it was legal, you can be damn sure that in a world filled with murder and violence, a good percentage of people would do it. Even if their wallet had nothing but gum wrappers in it, that's just human nature.

The truly frustrating things are the methods people use.  Passing Sdescs around, everyone knowing everyone, etc.  These are the shitty parts of being a criminal.  However, as far as I'm concerned, the more bloodthirsty everyone is, on both sides, the better.

Playing a criminal is so, so much fun, but you have to nut up and expect every victim to retaliate.  You can try and kill them first, so they don't have an option, operate using stealth so you never get caught or just accept that you're going to die and take down as many people as you can with you.

[lussien]

Has there ever been a successful crime lord who 'does everything himself' kind? Like the solo operator man who finally betrays his main organization and then causes the city to end up in turmoil? Then flees to another place and starts it all over again?

[Dar]

There was once a character that started up gangs in both rinth and undertuluk and the dude in question spent 50% of all his gameplay riding between nak and tuluk. That was fun and very exhausting. At some point I actually began confusing places and people. Waiting for people to show up for a job that did not even live in the rinth, they were in UT. Been like 3 or 4 years ago now. I had much much much more time on my hands. Died to a twink somewhere on the way between point A and B.

I enjoyed that character, especially since being part of 'speshul' organization, I walked around sporting one of those mdesc hiding masks that dont exist anymore. Which I think annoyed the imms since they wanted them gone gone gone. Was also considered a sorceror on his very first week of gameplay, I have no clue why. Was also one of my very very first shady type characters that lived past a few days, so I've done some hellish blunders just due to ignorance of code.

Never betrayed the organizations because .... what for? Why would you betray a cash flow organization. Betrayed individual members when they became a liability of course, but they usually deserved it.

[Coat of Arms]

It's not so much about bounties and executions. I never felt a crippling overabundance of those, and they do have to take place now and then - a templar needs to display his power and ruthlessness, and there needs to be something for bounty hunters to do. It's more about the little OOC things people will do to prevent all manner of crimes, but especially theft:

> If you ever suspect someone of being a thief, simply watch him for the entire duration of every instance where you're in the same room as him. He won't be able to do any stealing himself. The watch code is very lenient on the user and very harsh on the target. The overwhelming majority of the time, you don't even have to roleplay watching someone as it's very unlikely that anyone will notice, you're just applying an OOC-fuelled penalty to any stealth-related action the target tries to make. There are practically no penalties for the watcher.

> Everything you own that might be worth stealing can simply be stored in an impervious backpack. The thief will probably be able to find something worth stealing, but it won't be the stuff you don't want to lose, and thus it won't be the stuff the thief wants access to. Who cares about your completely replacable kank ticket or 50-'sid dagger? Since you don't, the thief probably doesn't either. For this reason, nobody ever hires a thief to steal something from somebody. They'll hire a magicker to paralyze the guy in his bedroom and grab it, or they'll hire an assassin to kill the guy and grab it. In fact, they'd probably hire a magicker in both cases, but that's besides the point.

> If you see a guy sneaking or hiding, you know he's almost certainly a rogue type. If he isn't wearing combat gear, you know he's definitely a thief. If you see a guy failing a peek attempt, you know he's a thief and you can make it impossible for him to ever attempt anything while you're in the room. If he tries to roleplay off the very ambiguous peek echo as checking out someone's ass, you certainly won't be fooled, you know it was the peek skill and you'll make it impossible for him to play a thief.

> If you witness someone doing something shady and he has a hood up, simply contact him and you'll get his sdesc. Anyone playing a shady character can attest to the number of random contact-withdraws they get. Forget about barrier, contact will break through. Anonymity is impossible. If someone spots a shadow in the bar, they'll typically stand up and scan so they can get a look just in case they later hear about a theft and they need to pass on the description. Hell, if you happen to notice something go missing as it happens because you looked in your pockets twice and your spice was gone the second time, and there's only one other visible PC in the room, you're aware of the fact that there's a 90% chance he did it. The odds of there being a hidden thief around are very small, so you can OOCly label the guy a thief and employ all of the above-mentioned methods to make sure he can't do it again.

> All of this easily gathered information can conveniently be passed around to everyone on AIM so your friends don't have to suffer the injustice (or merely the chance) of getting pickpocketed, robbed or otherwise compromised in their peaceful, conflict-free lives.

I've seen all of this many, many times. So often that I'm wholly unsurprised that criminal roleplay is all but absent.

Soldiers and templars are usually good about letting crime exist because it's part of their roles, they want criminals around so there's a reason to enforce the law. It's the general playerbase, the ones with nothing to lose and no particular interest in criminal rolelpay, who ruin it for those who depend on it in one way or another. The "common player" hates to lose something they feel they've worked for unless it happens in an interesting, memorable scene they can later brag about. Getting your keys nicked isn't worth bragging about, but making it impossible creates a ripple effect that ends up causing brag-worthy events to be much less common because most players are left disgusted with the experience of playing a character who isn't good. Everything is related to something else in this way, and if you contribute to the death of an entire realm of roleplay, you make the game poorer for yourself and everyone else. These days you can play a city-based character and never have anything exciting happen whatsoever unless you create it or know which players to be around in order to find it. It's because playing a "bad" character is often shunned unless it falls into one of the few categories that are deemed desirable elements in the game, and they're not enough by themselves to support that entire realm of roleplay.

[Lizzie]

Coat of Arms, I see the same type of meta-gaming done by some players of thieves/assassins.  If you're wearing all armor, seriously encumbered, blah blah blah, you're a warrior and therefore probably don't have the scan/listen skill. So that makes you an easy target for my thief. I'll just wait until Sassy the assassin/house servant aide walks away, and then I got your stuff. Or even better, if you're new, I'll AIM my pal Jim and have him log in and mindbend you until you pass out, and then I'll just steal the pack right off your back.

What you're talking about, really, is a few players who play the meta game to disadvantage people who they believe aren't playing the meta game.

What those people don't understand though, is that at some point, their "victims" will catch on eventually.

If you suspect that a player is meta-gaming in a way that's making it hard for you to enjoy Arm, then send a player complaint.

But please don't think this is a phenomenon exclusively targetted against thieves/assassins/shady types. It is done -by- players of those types as well. And don't think it's all that common. I'm comfortable in my belief that -most- players don't use their OOC knowledge of code/skill trees/maps/clan docs/AIM buddy lists, to get an advantage at the expense of someone else's enjoyment.

Some do - but most don't.

[Titania]

Sounds like rogue types just want to steal in peace with no consequences. Or dislike being interrupted in their spam sneak off some where.

The problem is playing the law is very boring. Oh look some interaction, oh wait I don't want the criminal to feel I am picking on them. I'll head back to the barracks and idle.

And of course everyone expects the law to be fair.Cops in our real civilized society never use excessive force! Don't pick on the criminals, out of everyone else you just happened to find not prejudiced paragons of justice to fine you what YOU think is the right bribe aft talking shit. Why even have law pcs? Install a bribe comand for npc soldiers based on the crime severity table. _

I think certain ranks of the law are in the same kinda boat as criminals. I don't want to kill you just kick your ass a little? But there are so few characters and people freak out about being hassled as bad as being stolen from. So even if you are some scummy halfbreed you complain and people CARE! Here comes a templar to reprimand the soldier for going outside their duty. Also I can't just beat you a little except with emotes, because of crim code. Good luck trying to find someone willing to be hassled.

[Down Under]

I agree with Lizzie. Some do, most don't.

I think once it's figured out you are a pickpocket, that information tends to circulate all too quickly ICly. Other than that, life isn't fair. People who have scan are meant to see people hiding. People who don't, can't, and make easy marks. I'm sure in 2.0, a lot of the stealth system will be brand new and revamped, providing more opportunity for RP rather than code beam battles.

[Potaje]

I've played at least one of several long lived criminals, with out minions. Crime is in its self both a simply and complex mechanism. Though this is not withstanding the level of aptness of those you deal with, from citizens, other criminals and law, however I found it very easy to play a criminal that began small made association in important positions, did more favors before large capers, which at one point had a Templar back a noble off them, even though there was a ten large bounty on their head.

Then again, I had one character that was outlandish in his behavior, got caught, toyed with by the law, tried to make the bride, toyed with some more, then killed. He really did deserve it after looking back, at the time I felt otherwise.

I have also played the side of Johnny Law many times, and simply put, sometimes your chosen to be the example, though I can say with all certainty, their are ways to ensure survival as a criminal when caught. And if you don't survive there is generally a good reason, sure not always, but generally. This is something staff keeps the Law clans very accountable for.

[Dar]

Coat of Arms's bad experience do unspeakable damage to you.
You reel.
Abuse happens, but I'd like to think it's not common place. Definitely not enough to so totally spoil an experience. Whoa.

And as someone who did play a few thieves whom I'd like to think were successful without too much twinkage, I would say this whole closed pack fortress is a legend. Nothing is impossible, in fact that kind of thing makes it interesting.

Watch skill is beautiful. Because if you're watching somebody and your stuff goes missing, then whoever it was who stole from you could not have been the one you're watching ... ... ... right?

[RogueGunslinger]

Meh.

My experience (with only one or two exceptions... I've never really played many criminals) has always been as follows:

Commit crime. (fighting, smuggling, etc.)

Get caught.

Get thrown in jail.

Get visited by templar. (For god knows whatever reason. I can't imagine that templars go out and check up on every NPC and VNPC that gets tossed in jail)

Beg. Grovel. Bribe. (Even laid down five hundred coins once after getting caught with spice.)

Get killed anyway.

And I know, a couple of times my char had it coming (didn't really expect much else after stealing a noble's wagon and killing the guards within), but it's the severe punishments for petty crimes I keep getting that make me not wanna bother.

It's pretty much ubertwink or wind up dead.

This, sadly, is my exact experiences to. It is literally twink or die with pick-pockets. That or spend your first ingame month salting so you can get enough 'sids to bribe templars. Which... I had one experience where a full thousand 'sid bribe only got me one extra arrest before I was thrown into the arena to die.

Basically, in my experience, if a templar catches you doing something illegal more than once you can probably expect to lose that character.

[Case]

I would say based on my experiences with this, if you want to get away with crime and especially being caught, it depends almost entirely how you act when committing crimes and when caught. Bribes are not fixed amount get-out-of-jail-free card, just a sweetner. Depends on the Templars or law enforcement involved, but it's all too easy to complain about how hard it is to be a criminal but ignore the fact that when you're acting like a total tool, talking smack and thinking you're entitled to behave however you please while wasting the law's time and generally making yourself as annoying as possible, you'll probably get slapped, yeah.

[Kaiden]

The playerbase is simply too small to be able to play a pickpocket or a burglar right.

I think someone said that in another post, but if you get caught stealing something minor, and there's someone that witnesses the crime, you're pretty much fucked for the rest of that character's life, social-life wise.

The Templar might tell a minion about you, that minion will tell his mate, the mate will tell her BFF, the BFF will tell another friend and within days the whole city will know that you attempted to steal a wooden dagger from that indie merchant with the rosy cheeks.

I guess it doesn't matter as much if you're a filthy elf from the 'rinth, but if you're a human whatever from the city, then yeah, good luck...

[HavokBlue]

That's why you play an elf. If you steal shit, nobody judges you for it.

[Wasteland Raider]

Protips, based on extensive experience both playing criminals and playing the other side of the law:

1) Don't be an idiot when you're arrested.

Seriously. Seriously, seriously, I don't understand this. Yes, your character may hate the law. They may absolutely despise templars. They may be cocky, self-righteous, pompous assholes. They're not suicidal. In real life, you may hate cops, and you may hate everything they stand for, but when you're arrested, you don't call the cop a cunt and spit in his face. And if you do, you deserve what you get. In game, the same thing applies - except here, the cops' word is law, and you get to die if you piss them off enough.

2) Be more useful than you are a nuisance.

Templars really don't need money, usually, and if they do, it's more money than you can provide. Find a way to make yourself useful to them, or find out who you can rob that they won't care about. Trust me, most Templars aren't going to off you for robbing Joe Bynner, but if you keep knocking over their favourite noble's aide, you're going to get what's coming to you. Maybe become an informant for them, or offer to do jobs for them - then, maybe next time you pickpocket Fancypants's aide, they might look the other way.

[Armaddict]

The precarious life of the armageddon criminal, represented:

[Dar]

Having same philosophy as wasteland raider, I am yet to ever get killed by a templar for being a criminal. Being killed by a templar for being a participant in some political rivalry is another matter of course.

[Iiyola]

The precarious life of the armageddon criminal, represented:

LOOOOOOL!

[Krishnamurti]

Actually most criminals in real life are stupid too, so you'll fit right in.

[Qzzrbl]

Actually most criminals in real life are stupid too, so you'll fit right in.

They tend to get away more often than not, too.

[Narf]

Actually most criminals in real life are stupid too, so you'll fit right in.

They tend to get away more often than not, too.

Kinda; Crime's basically a gamble where you can only really lose once or your life goes to shit. The odds are in your favor each individual time, but you wanna get out quick because eventually something goes wrong. Career criminals definately have problems with the law that the casual criminal does not.

[Sam]

I've definitely been killed because someone thought I was a pickpocket. (Disclaimer: I was, but I never got caught.)

I will say this: Over the past couple years, the templars have been doing a great job stifling pickpockets just enough to stress them out, without killing them.

I will add this: It is a struggle.