Karma Discussion Derail: Player/staff faith issues

[marko]

Usually all it takes is.

Hey, I think this and this should be fleshed out, I have ideas for it, and that should be revamped totally, I have ideas on that too.

You only had to do that?

The things that I had to do to get Tlaloc to change stuff.. oh the horrors!

But, for serious, staff are real people with real feelings and real cool quirks.

Conversely, they are also real people with real feelings and can get angry.  Duh. 

If you poke at the staff long enough with a dedicated enough stick, you'll get black-listed for sure.  But, that's your own doing cowboy! 

That statement is generic and not intended for any particular audience member.  Although, there is a rather cute one out there being a clown and he is pretty sexy with his R name and all.

I cannot stress this enough:  Staff members are human beings first.  They have lives (well, most do, really.. sometimes.. kinda.. it depends who) and they have their foibles.  Most I've ever met or dealt with were salt of the saltflats - crazy cool people.  Some were, and are, definitely "weird birds" but, let's face it, the majority of the Armageddon community fits under that category in some way, shape, or form.

So hold hands, sing songs, and group hug.  Then get killed by a crazed krathi cooking up her own brand of bbq.  Deal with it.  It's Arm. 

[Anaiah]

I try to be as objective as possible in all my dealings with you guys, because I love you to bits and understand that you put as much time and effort into making Arm what it is as we do, if on a different level. If I feel there's something negative which needs to be noted, I ALWAYS call in a second member and ask them to watch or discuss things with them before doing so. And, failing that, if I feel like there's even a QUESTION about whether or not I can be a fair and objective judge in a situation, I stop dealing with the person and pull back for a few weeks to let someone else handle their reports/requests for the time being, until I -am- 100% confident that I can be.

There's a lot of friction on both sides of the equation at various different times and for various reasons. Sometimes people 'do' have a hard time being objective, but given that we are entirely NOT allowed to have anything to do with anyone our character might have anything to do with IC, it will never be over something personal which happened in game. There are a lot of rules, procedures, and red tape drawn all over in attempts to keep things as fair and unbiased as possible. And for the most part, I think it works out fairly well.

[Reiloth]

Usually all it takes is.

Hey, I think this and this should be fleshed out, I have ideas for it, and that should be revamped totally, I have ideas on that too.

You only had to do that?

The things that I had to do to get Tlaloc to change stuff.. oh the horrors!

But, for serious, staff are real people with real feelings and real cool quirks.

Conversely, they are also real people with real feelings and can get angry.  Duh.  

If you poke at the staff long enough with a dedicated enough stick, you'll get black-listed for sure.  But, that's your own doing cowboy!  

That statement is generic and not intended for any particular audience member.  Although, there is a rather cute one out there being a clown and he is pretty sexy with his R name and all.

I cannot stress this enough:  Staff members are human beings first.  They have lives (well, most do, really.. sometimes.. kinda.. it depends who) and they have their foibles.  Most I've ever met or dealt with were salt of the saltflats - crazy cool people.  Some were, and are, definitely "weird birds" but, let's face it, the majority of the Armageddon community fits under that category in some way, shape, or form.

So hold hands, sing songs, and group hug.  Then get killed by a crazed krathi cooking up her own brand of bbq.  Deal with it.  It's Arm.  

Sage advice, marko, albeit a bit detached and general, considering you haven't played in a while. I'm glad you find me cute

I think there are plenty of valid points on both sides of this, and Staff and Players can both be absolute ninnies to each other. But, at the end of the day, we're all here to have fun. So let's do that!

[Taven]

Let me repeat what I think is the most important part of my original post:

I think that the relationship between staff and players needs to be more cooperative, and that its good to keep in mind that MUDing is a dying game form - when we lose a player, or staff, thats one person, with years of valuable experience, we're not getting back.

When I wrote this, what I had in mind is pretty simple - there's plenty of work to be done on the current incarnation of Arm, and there's absolutely no reason why all that work must be on the backs of the staff.  I'd like to see players take more initiative in updating clan documentation, for one.

I think that if there were more official avenues for players and staff to work together in building/creating/writing for this game, a lot of the old bitterness (if relevant) could be worked through.  Its about a shared investment and turning passions to constructive ends, while improving our game world.

As others have said, sometimes it's just as simple as just asking. Not too long ago, I was interested in making a change for a location IC, because there was something in it that was neat, and I wanted to update/elaborate on it. When I sent in my character report, I asked about changing this and updating it. They said they'd love it if I would, and I wrote something up. They tweaked it, and it got put into the game. I now have a game room I can point at and say "I did that!".

I have also made an item in the past before, which was put in game. I think the sometimes frustrating thing about working with getting things put in game, is that at one point in time your current staff may not want to work on a project. Then, later new staff may want to do it. It can leave a person feeling a little bit discouraged. However, I think the policy of remembering that staff are people is a good one. There may be circumstances with the one group of staff that made them not want to pursue something, or a lack of interest. With the new staff, the circumstances may have changed, and it might just be something that a staffer feels really passionate about.

I'd also like to say that staff has been pretty open to contributions. We were interested in having a way that players could contribute more, and the Player Collaboration forum was made for us. It isn't used to anywhere near it's full potential. We also got a Original Submissions Section just for player-designed guides. There is a lot of potential in both those areas, and both were made by staff because players asked and wanted to contribute.

Finally, while it is not adding to the game in terms of building, players can ask to become helpers. Currently you have to specifically ask about it, but if you're really interested in the game and have a good grasp of the game world, helping newbies is a great way to contribute.

[jstorrie]

At the end of the day, we're all here to have fun. So let's do that!

YOU FIRST CAPT. GRUMPUS

[Ktavialt]

Just posting to say I've never had a complaint about staff ever.  I don't know anybody personally on this game.  I have no connections.  I don't know any staff personally, never knew any staff personally.  I've had several characters murdered from NPC higher-end types doing in-house personnel clean-up, but they all seemed legit.  I've so far trusted staff and never felt it was used.

[Kol]

I'd also like to say that staff has been pretty open to contributions. We were interested in having a way that players could contribute more, and the Player Collaboration forum was made for us. It isn't used to anywhere near it's full potential. We also got a Original Submissions Section just for player-designed guides. There is a lot of potential in both those areas, and both were made by staff because players asked and wanted to contribute.

Finally, while it is not adding to the game in terms of building, players can ask to become helpers. Currently you have to specifically ask about it, but if you're really interested in the game and have a good grasp of the game world, helping newbies is a great way to contribute.

Bolded a few bits.
I personally have never had any problems with the staff, or players, I've sent in a few kudos, and one complaint, that was, quite rightly, sent back to me with a 'Get over it'.

I joined in 2008, and in the three years I've been playing, I've had nothing but support from the staff, from my first app that got denied, and kindly sent back (By Talia, I think) with some pointers, and corrections, to a short-lived Byn sarge (aren't they all?) To one absolutely epic death scene that  will stick with me until I go senile, or die, simply because I hate storing PC's.


I would like to say however, I appreciate, and thank all the staff for the time they take from their regular lives to deal with sad fools who like to kill small furry critters. Except Nyr, I'm pretty sure he has no life.  

Edited to remove idiocy.

[Lukoyin]

Edit by me: As the entire post looked like a "Blame the staff" in the way it was written. In fact, it was more to show how bigger changes bring bigger amounts of complaints or apprehension.

[jstorrie]

One notable factor may be that it's a lot more convenient to file a staff complaint, now that there's the request tool.

[Gimfalisette]

Not to be a jerk or anything, but to be honest, if you're not actually professionally employed or educated in data mining and analysis then you probably shouldn't be throwing it around like you are. Just invoking my name doesn't mean your analysis is correct. For example:

-- Did you account for the possibility that the number of posts per year on the GDB has been growing? If the number of posts in a year changes, then it would be expected that the number of posts related to any given topic would change, as well. Put another way, what percentage of total posts in 2005 does your selected keyword phrase represent? Ditto for any year you queried? If the percentage of posts with the keywords "staff complaint" is actually going down, not up, then wouldn't that change your conclusion?

-- It doesn't look like you accounted for the fact that 2002 was a partial year, just as 2011 is a partial year. The GDB didn't come online until September 2002.

-- What was your reasoning behind arbitrarily choosing the period 2009-2011 to represent an increase? Did you actually graph your numbers and look at a trendline, or did you just pick something out of the air that looked like a good place to hang your analysis?

-- How did you choose your keyword phrase? Did you consider alternate phrases and mine for all of those, as well? If you didn't mine for alternate phrases, how are you certain you've represented the whole dataset?

-- Did you account for the fact that not all instances of your keyword phrase will mean what you're claiming they mean? Similarly, did you account for the fact that you may be picking up the individual words "staff" and "complaint" in a thread, when those words actually have nothing to do with each other, and therefore do not represent the disgruntlement of any particular player? For example: http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,40858.msg618255.html#msg618255

-- Not to mention, you averaged 2002-2009, and you also used 2009-2011...overlapping time periods? What the fuck? That simply makes no sense.

-- Modified to add: Additionally, prior to the switchover to the current GDB software late in 2008, old posts were deleted automatically unless they were archived by staff. In the new GDB, nothing is deleted. Did your analysis account for auto-deletion of posts in 2008 and prior?

In short...though I haven't been short...your analysis is inadequate and your conclusion is totally unsupported. And please don't use my name to give your analysis apparent legitimacy.

[Lukoyin]

Huh, and here I thought I was simply giving props to the data queen with a little shout out. You did, in fact, come across as a jerk, if not hostile but that's text for you. Things can always be taken the wrong way. I'll refrain from invoking your all powerful GDB handle in the future though, no problem.

I'll respond to the rest of your questions when I'm done laughing.

[Kronibas]

Where is that Michael Jackson eating popcorn .gif when you need it?

[musashi]

I'm on it.

[Cutthroat]

I don't think players are necessarily more or less concerned with or annoyed by staff. I think a lot of concern gets expressed via private means, either directly to staff through the request tool, or to other players via IM, chat rooms, etc. It also sometimes gets expressed as snark which is ultimately keywordless.

In my opinion, we shouldn't be worried about how many of us are disgruntled, but rather, keeping good options open for players that are disgruntled to express their concerns.

Some of us fear reprisal from bringing concerns up on the GDB, I suppose, but I think tactful criticism that considers both sides is the best kind, and is ultimately harmless, while it still has potential to lead to good change for the way the game is run. There's always the staff complaint request for when the GDB isn't possible or a request is simply preferable.

It's very possible to contribute to the game and the documentation constructively as players, and staff are also former (and current) players. By and large, they're not automagically turning into corrupt bastards all of a sudden after joining staff. They're still hobbyists who like this game and the idea of it, and I think they have its best interests at heart, keeping things fair for everyone, or at least trying their best to do so.

[brytta.leofa]

Relations between staff and players, in my opinion, is best described in a workplace setting.

This post was golden, Armaddict, and really halps my thinking on the subject.

[marko]

Huh, and here I thought I was simply giving props to the data queen with a little shout out. You did, in fact, come across as a jerk, if not hostile but that's text for you. Things can always be taken the wrong way. I'll refrain from invoking your all powerful GDB handle in the future though, no problem.

I'll respond to the rest of your questions when I'm done laughing.

I read Gim's post and she, simply put, nailed you.

If you attempt to use a methodology to prove a point then you need to make certain you do it correctly.  Anyone who uses data analysis on a regular basis of any sort would do just what she pointed out.

Your response, the one I quoted, is the typical response of someone who got burned and is trying to 'cover' for it.  Gim didn't come across as a jerk.  She came across as on to you (and only to you) due to your defensiveness on the issue.  That, in of itself,  is amusing to me since the usual purpose of doing an analysis of that sort is to remove emotion and point out fact. 

If, and when, I make a mistake in an analysis of a situation I am always grateful for corrections. 

I, personally, wouldn't want to be associated with faulty logic and analysis either. 

[Zoan]

I was told, after failing to get the eighth sponsored role I applied for in a row, that I was not regarded because I needed to 'regain trust' due to a staff member throwing her hate-sauce all over my account notes over two years ago.  Sometimes it doesn't matter how closely you stick to the documentation, how many player kudos you receive, no matter how passionate you are about your PCs and show it, how many reports you send in dutifully, the bios you write just for staff benefit so they can get into your PC's head better or how many years you play leader PCs out of a feeling of duty to the game that gave you so much, your karma reviews and role applications will always be determined by petty bullshit.

I stopped playing instead of trying to redeem myself in staff eyes to no avail for those two years, and I bet a lot of people feel the same and just give up. Two years is FAR too long a time to be shat on.

[Nyr]

I was told, after failing to get the eighth sponsored role I applied for in a row, that I was not regarded because I needed to 'regain trust' due to a staff member throwing her hate-sauce all over my account notes over two years ago.  Sometimes it doesn't matter how closely you stick to the documentation, how many player kudos you receive, no matter how passionate you are about your PCs and show it, how many reports you send in dutifully, the bios you write just for staff benefit so they can get into your PC's head better or how many years you play leader PCs out of a feeling of duty to the game that gave you so much, your karma reviews and role applications will always be determined by petty bullshit.

I stopped playing instead of trying to redeem myself in staff eyes to no avail for those two years, and I bet a lot of people feel the same and just give up. Two years is FAR too long a time to be shat on.

That is inaccurate and not reflected in your account notes or character notes--that is to say, there's not any hate-sauce residue on your account notes.  I would recommend you file a staff complaint if you feel that you have been wronged in some fashion by a staffer.

[Zoan]

I know the sensible, reasonable thing to do is to do something like that, but I am actually scared to do that. It might seem an unreasonable mindset, but it's like filing a complaint about a police officer to the police. I just have this feeling I'd get laughed at for doing it.

[Kol]

I know the sensible, reasonable thing to do is to do something like that, but I am actually scared to do that. It might seem an unreasonable mindset, but it's like filing a complaint about a police officer to the police. I just have this feeling I'd get laughed at for doing it.

Police actually take complaints about officers seriously (over here at least). Besides, if you raise a complaint about a staff member, it has to be looked at, the chances of a staffer saying 'Pfft, look at Zoan's complaint, little bitch should just man up' Are small, if none, seeing as Staff complaints are managed by the higher-ups.

If it's about the bad account notes, you can always e-mail saying why you think they are unfair, and why they should be removed if you feel them unjustified.

[Kryos]

Just a little thing that made me chuckle, and how I frame this thread.  Normally, das Interwebz is a place where you aren't accountable for what you do, and actions have limited or no repercussions.  Even in most muds or mmo's you just make 'alts' and troll/grief away, or various other exploits/bad behaviors, and little can be done.

Arm is the opposite of that, where accountability and consequence is high(in and out of game, ala perma death and account management).  Seems only natural people would get rather riled up when they experience it.  But, through consequence, error, and eventually learning, we should be growing as role players and a community.  Mistakes happen, learning from them is golden.

Also, of course:  change is scary.  I mean, look at poor Netflix.

[Talia]

Players often seem to take being rejected for a role call very personally. Overly personally. Yes, sometimes players are not accepted for these roles because they have poor history in that type of role previously; other times, players are not accepted for other reasons entirely. At some point, if you apply for enough roles, you will get rejected. There is no player who gets every role they apply for. (For one thing, were such an uber-player to exist, they would eventually start getting rejected just because staff wanted to give a chance to someone who hadn't previously had a chance.)

There are a bunch of things players could do to clear up their history with staff, make themselves appear more suitable for sponsored roles, and so on. But that's not the point of this thread. If someone wants to ask the question, "How can I get the sponsored role and/or the karma and/or the special app I want?" in another thread, then both successful players and staff could give advice on that issue. (But if all that's desired is to complain about it, well, that helps no one and won't make for success in the long run.)

[Titania]

I find a lot of comments the staff are making laughable.

My experience with complaints is getting the answer "Too bad."

I try and keep my character wants and my gdb self separate, but the staff seems to think they are linked in my opinion.

This whole new karma system is just a way to placate the players without actually changing a thing. It reminds me of a govt agency I worked for. They choose who they want to hire, but by law they have to post the job public for two weeks and conduct interviews. It's just a sham to show compliance. Just like this new karma system, they have a pretty written policy and "system" to explain to the gullible how they did what they wanted anyway.

[Reiloth]

GDB behavior is directly related to your account, and what Staff thinks of you. I agree that it shouldn't -- And I certainly try not to connect GDB Nyr with Armageddon Nyr -- But we're human, and I think it's hard to separate the two.

My player complaints have gotten a succinct "We'll look into this". I don't think i've filed a staff complaint, as far as I remember. I'd be worried over getting a 'too bad' and red flagging myself to Staff as someone to watch out for. But, as Staff is making clear, Producers deal with Staff Complaints, so I don't think we need to worry ourselves so much with 'OMG THEY'LL BLACKLIST ME' as much as I initially thought we did. If you have a legitimate complaint, I say file it.

[marko]

I try and keep my character wants and my gdb self separate, but the staff seems to think they are linked in my opinion.

This whole new karma system is just a way to placate the players without actually changing a thing. It reminds me of a govt agency I worked for. They choose who they want to hire, but by law they have to post the job public for two weeks and conduct interviews. It's just a sham to show compliance. Just like this new karma system, they have a pretty written policy and "system" to explain to the gullible how they did what they wanted anyway.

Not to belabour the point but they are linked.  

Karma is about trust.  Trust that you, as a player (not as a character), will not attempt to do stupid stuff that will cause problems for the game overall or individual plotlines.

If you make an ass of yourself on the GDB then, chances are, you -will- do something ass-like in the game (OR out of the game - OOC metaplaying is rampant after all) while trying to cling to the 'sham' of justifying it via roleplaying.  After all, it's just a sham to show compliance.  Just like how some people use the roleplay system, they have a pretty written explanation about why their 'roleplay' made sense to explain to the gullible how they did what they wanted anyway.

Seriously, karma is nothing more than a trust meter.  You gain trust by doing things that are, well, trustworthy.   It really isn't hard.

Play by the rules and the guidelines and karma will come without hesitation.  Try to bend the rules, try to justify stupid acts (like an elf riding a beetle because he really needed to at the time so it was 'good roleplaying')  with the "I was roleplaying my character' excuse and you won't get karma.

Be a jerk on the GDB and why would anyone want to have you in their clan?  Think about that.  If you see someone on the GDB and you really dislike how they are confrontational, arrogant, mean-spirited, and belligerent, would -you- ignore that and invite them to play in your clan where you would have to deal with them on a daily basis?  If you answer honestly and are a relatively sane human being then you would say no.  

That's why GDB posting is reflected in Karma.  

Don't like it?  Then stop being a dork on the GDB.