Discussion Thread: Karma Changes

[Armaddict]

Realized I hadn't said it, even though I intended to.

I really hope that this adds a new element to fluctuations of elementalists.  Before, there would be threads of haters (myself included) every now and again about the sudden spike of magickal classes in game.  My personal hope is that this change will dampen those spikes of interest.  Sorry if you only like playing elementalists, but you shouldn't be able to. XD

[Delirium]

Yeah, frankly, I don't see a cool-down between higher level magic classes as a problem, at all.

I do, however, think that the starting spells of sorcerers should be looked at, since they will be even more rare and difficult to play, now.

[wizturbo]

I do, however, think that the starting spells of sorcerers should be looked at, since they will be even more rare and difficult to play, now.

Agreed.  The 'sorceror villian' concepts out there won't be very appealing under this system, because they'll cost a lot of char gen points and carry a high risk of early death.

While some of you think this is a good thing, I'd consider that closely.  These are often the characters who create conflict and stir things up.

[Marauder Moe]

I'm pretty much completely OK with making sorcerers rare(er).

[Bacon]

Realized I hadn't said it, even though I intended to.

I really hope that this adds a new element to fluctuations of elementalists.  Before, there would be threads of haters (myself included) every now and again about the sudden spike of magickal classes in game.  My personal hope is that this change will dampen those spikes of interest.  Sorry if you only like playing elementalists, but you shouldn't be able to. XD

I believe this will make magicker players work harder to be even more careful and stay alive longer creating more longer lived OMG fuckyouup magickers being alive in the game at one time. They will avoid the rest of the playerbase until uber even more under this system. Then the bitching will begin again.

Also, if they are working to keep them alive longer they'll have the karma back by the time it dies to replace it with another if they wish. It will decrease the frequency in spikes but the spikes will last longer and be even more impacting on the game.

[X-D]

All the more reason to be more careful, calculating, and dare I say - realistic with your character? Especially the high-karma sorcerer types, who always have to fight an uphill battle now anyways.

More careful, less conflict, less fun, more realistic, less fun.

Somebody mentions something newly in the history...Eh, I could refute that but it would go against the rules of the GDB.

I find that people have been playing quite careful, Oh sure, the newbs die every day, but we are not talking about them because they do not have karma yet.

And being that I play pretty much everywhere, it is not a matter of, Oh, I'm not seeing stuff because it is somewhere else either. The General conflict level is down, the general longevity is up...WAY up. In the last 4 years the number of year plus PCs in the game at any one time is nothing short of amazing compared to even the 4 years before that.

And it does not even matter about what is current anyway, because the New system WILL serve to bring down the genral conflict level, How much remains to be seen. It WILL increase angst...that is a point I think will go up alot. It WILL increase griefing, Something that is rather easy to get away with. But by how much, that also remains to be seen.

[Dalmeth]

One of the things that appeals to me most about this new system is that it covers what embitters many of us as we've gone through the game : special apps with extra perks.

I know I've thought about apping them several times over, and I never could justify to my satisfaction getting a skill boost here or some other bonus.  So I thank the staff for giving us a list of perks we can look over and choose without going through the song and dance of impressing upon staff members.

I have to say, though, that one karma per month seems somewhat extreme.  Almost a year between 8 karma roles?  Two half-giants gets forces you to wait half a year before another?  I play long term characters, but this seems to demand too much for just a game, even to me.  I would suggest doubling the rate of regeneration, or at least half again with three karma every two months.

I have the slightest inkling that half a year or even years between high karma roles is just about where the staff wants it, but for the other roles, it just seems excessive.

[number13]

And it does not even matter about what is current anyway, because the New system WILL serve to bring down the genral conflict level, How much remains to be seen. It WILL increase angst...that is a point I think will go up alot. It WILL increase griefing, Something that is rather easy to get away with. But by how much, that also remains to be seen.

That's a lot of "WILL".

Firstly, I think the general conflict level will remain the same or increase.  Just from my perspective, I'll play risky no matter what, because I'm stupid that way.  Just now, I'll be playing risky with some added ability to survive and influence the gameworld every second character.

No doubt angst will increase, in the short term. It already has.  Fundamental change does that. But I've faith that the staff will monitor the situation and adjust as required.

I don't know how you define griefing.  If templars or other capable parties aggressively hunting sorcs/nilazi/mindbenders/rogue elementalists is griefing, then I'm all for it.  I'll never have the karma to roll any high karma class, but if by some trick I did, I would feel cheated if the role didn't involve constant risk.

[Vox]

Dude, being more careful by definition means taking less risks, taking less risks means making less conflict. Something that, IMO is at an all time low already. If you cannot see that...then I don't know what to say.

As to the angst, that is usually something that happens when somebody loses a PC to something they see as not their fault, be it code or PK. Currently, when that happens, they get upset, sure, but they can, if they wish, roll up almost exactly the same PC if they want, or maybe they want to try that drovian...whatever.


New system, You lose a PC and don't think it is your fault, but oh wait, the cost is now MUCH higher, not only did you lose the PC, you used karma on the race and sub so you actually lost a PC AND 3 or more karma. So, angst level MUCH higher.

And as somebody else mentioned, High karma guilds are already targets...this will make the griefers see them as that much bigger targets, some people knowing that killing that newb sorc means that player can't make anything above HG for several months...Heh.

X-D brings up a really interesting point and while my initial thought was, "damn, he's right, and we should be finding ways to create MORE conflict not less." I then realized that this system would make those super-powerful-awesome-karma-class players more protective and take fewer risks(at least for the first few months ) while the mundany-mundanes who are either saving Karma or have none anyway could take all the chances they like(read as: trying to kill every high-karma class they run into). One could keep pumping out human/dwarf/city elf ranger/warrior/assassin/burglar/pickpocket/merchant and play them as fast and loose as they liked, and with this system THAT would be the majority of classes and races statistically alive at any given time which ultimately better reflects the game world anyway.

So, while I still think X-D's assessment is correct, I feel like it may actually add that more realistic element back into the game where people are hungry to kill Magickers/Psionicists(even if initially it's based slightly on OOC grief-thinking) and the Magickers will have had options(based on their karma level) to help them survive and customize their Magick (making them more survivable/deadly anyway).

More Mundanes romping around and trying to actualize the 'longevity' requirement so that they can earn some Karma will most likely translate to higher Clan participation(high survivability chance) over solo-grebber(low survivability chance), ultimately helping the role-playing game world and I say that as an avid solo-player.  I'm getting excited about what this change will do to player population centers and hoping that if it increases city clan numbers then THAT will inherently create opportunities for more conflict rather than pushing players to OOC'ly protect their Karma investments.

My concern is that the opposite feeling strikes people and their RL conscience nags them not to kill the magick-wielding-mul-assassin because they know it cost someone their full 8 Karma, and how this person is going to have to wait half an RL year to play that type of concept again.

My only question is: Will the option to boost a particular STAT also be added at a Karma cost? To be done after the pc has rolled and rerolled and perhaps the unluck of both their rolls leaving them less excited to type score and see a couple 'poor's and 'below average's and realizing they're stuck in this PC for the next 5 months. Or are those rare cases where a submit request to have a second reroll based on shitty circumstances would be entertained by the staff?

[jstorrie]

Agreed.  The 'sorceror villian' concepts out there won't be very appealing under this system, because they'll cost a lot of char gen points and carry a high risk of early death.

Very, very, very few players have the karma to just roll up sorcerors on their own. For the most part, everyone has to special app them... and getting a sorceror app approved has proven, in my experience, to take about as much time as it would take to regenerate all that karma, anyway. I think there will actually be more sorcerors overall, since the process for getting one started has been streamlined. Anyway, time will tell.

[oklenny]

Two half-giants gets forces you to wait half a year before another?

Haha

New karma system is p awesome then.

[Cutthroat]

All the more reason to be more careful, calculating, and dare I say - realistic with your character? Especially the high-karma sorcerer types, who always have to fight an uphill battle now anyways.

More careful, less conflict, less fun, more realistic, less fun.

Somebody mentions something newly in the history...Eh, I could refute that but it would go against the rules of the GDB.

I find that people have been playing quite careful, Oh sure, the newbs die every day, but we are not talking about them because they do not have karma yet.

And being that I play pretty much everywhere, it is not a matter of, Oh, I'm not seeing stuff because it is somewhere else either. The General conflict level is down, the general longevity is up...WAY up. In the last 4 years the number of year plus PCs in the game at any one time is nothing short of amazing compared to even the 4 years before that.

To me, being less careful means disregarding that aspect of survival that is supposed to be prevalent in this game. People want to live, but they also want to do stuff. So rather than do nothing at all, or go overboard, they do things they can reasonably manage. There's still conflict in that. It's manageable, often long-term conflict that allows for extended roleplay of the issue.

You can disagree with me about the history thing (which I mentioned) if you want. But in my opinion, you'd be wrong. That was a war between two PC clans. That's perhaps the purest form of conflict one will ever see in this game. That's PCs killing other PCs. You can't really deny that that is player conflict.

It WILL increase griefing, Something that is rather easy to get away with. But by how much, that also remains to be seen.

I don't really expect normal, rule-abiding players to suddenly turn into griefers when this goes into effect. I have enough trust in players to put in a player complaint if things get out of hand.

I think we need some time for the new system to actually be applied to the game before we can speculate on certain changes. Keep in mind that staff are already considering the regeneration rate of these points and a lower time will help with "angst" or what I see as "coping with the loss of a PC". If you have something lower than a month that you think might work, you should propose it here and say why it would be better. Staff are taking suggestions after all.

[jstorrie]

I have a quick question for Morgenes, or anyone else with a good luck under the hood...

In Morgenes' description of the system on Staff Announcements, he mentions that if you spend skill bumps on a skill which branches you will not get that branch. Does this mean that

a) even if you pass the branch threshold you won't start with the skill which branches from it - but it will branch in-game once you start using the skill in question

or

b) if you skill bump past the branch threshold, you'll never branch?

I assume A but I want to be sure.

[X-D]

The nature of the beast is to protect investments.

Will more people join clans, sure, but that will not create conflict and will in fact cause even less. Since as it stands now, none of the clans are in conflict with each other and in fact go out of the way to make sure that is the case.

Of course staff and or players could step in and change that but I find that to be highly unlikely.

The old complaint of X karma class hides till he can come out and ubergank people will go up because not only will they continue to do that they will do it to a higher degree because now, instead of just having to worry about the PC, you will want to stay safe till at least part of the karma investment has regened. Where a Nilazi might have hid till he had certain spells he will now hide till he has some of the karma back and also more spells if not all of them. It only makes sense to do so.

Also, the higher karma classes will be more likely to be aggressive in a deadly way when they do come out of hiding. Doing so with the classes capable of one shotting people lowers risk.

Now, staff has already said they are looking at the karma regen rates, but I find that will be something very hard to balance out, Too low and the investment is so high as to slow the pace of the game to a crawl and effectively remove any sort of conflict coming from karma players, Too high and you might as well not even have it.

(edit)
Due to GDB rules I simply cannot say anything else about said war but that the "purity" Is far less then you think.

[Cutthroat]

jstorrie,

Did we say skill bumping does not autobranch you?  If we did, that is incorrect.  You can branch new skills through skill gains at character creation.  You CANNOT apply skill gains to skills that were branched from skill gains in char generation.

It probably got lost in the many posts in this thread  The wording in the announcement can be a bit ambiguous, but I take it to mean you do not have access to those branched skills for skill bumping. You'll have them for use at their starting level once you get in-game.

[Adhira]

As I mentioned in an earlier post staff have been discussing what happens if a character is killed prematurely or for dubious reasons early in the piece etc.  We are still working out the details on a lot of this but it is likely that we will have an appeal process of some sort in these instances.

For sponsored roles - we're looking at several options for this from the status quo where clan staff give out a few bumps etc to starting character to instead having sponsored roles gifted the 3 CGP to spend on skill boosts as they please.   These are things that staff are currently still working out and it is unlikely that you will be given a definitive answer until we announce that this system is ready to launch.

[Oldarmer]

I have a quick question for Morgenes, or anyone else with a good luck under the hood...

In Morgenes' description of the system on Staff Announcements, he mentions that if you spend skill bumps on a skill which branches you will not get that branch. Does this mean that

a) even if you pass the branch threshold you won't start with the skill which branches from it - but it will branch in-game once you start using the skill in question

or

b) if you skill bump past the branch threshold, you'll never branch?

I assume A but I want to be sure.

As I read it in Morg's and referenced in others
You can bump the standard skills - if that gets you to branch level, yes you'll have that skill in game branched (or maybe it will branch on first time).
What you won't be able to do is, bump it to branch level in char gen, then see the branch skill show up in char gen and be able to bump the branch skill.
Basically you can only bump beginning skills, but can bump them to branch level and benefit.

That was my take.

[Reiloth]

As I mentioned in an earlier post staff have been discussing what happens if a character is killed prematurely or for dubious reasons early in the piece etc.  We are still working out the details on a lot of this but it is likely that we will have an appeal process of some sort in these instances.

For sponsored roles - we're looking at several options for this from the status quo where clan staff give out a few bumps etc to starting character to instead having sponsored roles gifted the 3 CGP to spend on skill boosts as they please.   These are things that staff are currently still working out and it is unlikely that you will be given a definitive answer until we announce that this system is ready to launch.

I think tossing them 3 CGP is a good idea.

[jstorrie]

The General conflict level is down, the general longevity is up...WAY up. In the last 4 years the number of year plus PCs in the game at any one time is nothing short of amazing compared to even the 4 years before that.

This may be partly due to more people learning how to keep their PCs alive; it may also be partly due to the decrease in Halaster-like PC-holocaust events.

[Cutthroat]

I think we should agree to disagree with regard to the new karma system and conflict, considering the risk of derailing the thread into sources of conflict, conflict between clans, etc. It's a good thing to discuss though, if you want to make a new topic for it.

The old complaint of X karma class hides till he can come out and ubergank people will go up because not only will they continue to do that they will do it to a higher degree because now, instead of just having to worry about the PC, you will want to stay safe till at least part of the karma investment has regened. Where a Nilazi might have hid till he had certain spells he will now hide till he has some of the karma back and also more spells if not all of them. It only makes sense to do so.

That's possible, sure. It's also possible that the players will want to do something instead of focusing on skill-grinding, and will play people, as they're getting a more uncommon chance to play a magicker and want to make it fun and worth their while.

Also, the higher karma classes will be more likely to be aggressive in a deadly way when they do come out of hiding. Doing so with the classes capable of one shotting people lowers risk.

And increases their danger, which in turn creates more risk for people in other roles, like witch-hunters, lone travelers... I'm not seeing the downside here.

[Lancer]

I'd probably like to see the skill bump pool separate from the karma pool used for race/guild/shiny new subguild selection, but still at least tied to player karma cap for max points and likely the same regen rate.. you could possibly even batch the new mundane subguilds in with the hypothetical skill pool if you wanted them to be slightly more common. Also, has there been any consideration given to allowing characters to access the pool for skill bumps post chargen? With everything tied into the karma pool no one could say it'd be done lightly since it affects what's accessible for your next character, but it seems like that could create an option for folks looking for a way to raise skills while offline.

Regardless, I look forward to seeing how this turns out and I'm glad to see some more tlc given to the current incarnation of Arm.  

[Barzalene]

1 sorc per year (or 3\4 of a year) per  customer seems fair to me.

[Oldarmer]

The General conflict level is down, the general longevity is up...WAY up. In the last 4 years the number of year plus PCs in the game at any one time is nothing short of amazing compared to even the 4 years before that.

This may be partly due to more people learning how to keep their PCs alive; it may also be partly due to the decrease in Halaster-like PC-holocaust events.

Agreed.

It could also be because people have discovered that character relationships add an intense amount of enjoyment and atmosphere to yourself and those around you, and relationships have far less impact when they cease to exist (such as death or not playing). Having folks your character hates, loves, is friendly with, socializes with, plots against, and even has a nemesis tends to be a much more rewarding (and sometimes angst filled).

Course, it could be because the sun is blue, the phase of the moons, or the down economy. We all apparently perceive and reason differently.

[Sam]

Lancer, that is a fantastic idea and would make my casual play times much less stressful.

[Clavis]

Newbies die everyday and newbies can stir up conflict with or without karma. It's not newness that decides if you can or can't stir up a bunch of plots, I've noticed in my limited time playing alot of the conflict seems to be squashed rather quickly. Far to quickly for my liking, but hey it's me.

I've seen conflict in alot of places that could lead to very interesting things get downplayed, or washed under the rug. I find it at times annoying, though I wasn't seeing the whole picture and only a portion of it. I live for conflict enjoy it thoroughly especially the longer lived feuds.

All I seeing is people complaining cause they won't be able to play a sorcerer, or nilaz or whatever else  is higher up on the karma scale. Why does it take those specific guilds to cause conflict? I'm pretty sure, a human assassin/warrior/whathave you can bring about a lot more conflict then just one, uberpowered asher or psion. You may actually have to park yourself on a stool, and find others to become friends with and before you stir up some trouble. But hey suddenly you just gave others shit to do not only your friends, but those your kicking in the sack as well. Instead of relying upon your own powerful self to do it.

that's just the way I look at it.

edited to add: can't wait to see the new subguilds.