Discussion Thread: Karma Changes

[Rhyden]

Just wanted to chime in and say these changes are awesome!

I believe this is going to reinforce the importance of trying to keep your character alive for a while (something I generally struggle with) and also help out casual players with difficult roles.

Thanks staff!

[Morgenes]

Well, I understood that part, but how is that streamlining the process?

I mean, Alright, it will be well known to everybody that you can't app more then 3 points above your current, but I thought that was already the case?

You know, the sad part about this entire karma deal for me is.

In the past I have been able to not really care about karma and now I feel as I will be forced to care about it somewhat, just to stay on a semi-even footing with other PCs of even basically mundane types.

Part of the plan is to look at making special apps par of the char gen process.  Instead of going through the request tool, you would submit it in game as a 'special application'. Since the 3 CGP bonus will be included, this will make approving these much easier, and likely broaden the range of people who can review them. Streamlining the process. This isn't fully baked, and will happen after the initial roll out of CGP, but it OS on the horizon.

[X-D]

Well Morg, That actually does sound impressive.

And Rhyden, Gee, that is what the game really needs, even less conflict and more angst when somebody does get PK'd or a silly code death. I foresee more rage quits and rants in the future.


So hey, given that thought. Has there been more thought to maybe slightly looser rules to res?

I mean, there are many stupid ways to die in the game, many of which you even have a hard time making IC. But at least if you fell victem to those the cost was simply a PC and you could roll it again...no big loss, but this system can make even the loss of a mundane a rather large loss.

[Barzalene]

My concern, one I hope not only staff. But also players will consider is whether it will be fair or more important fun for the new amd low karma player. It's nice to start with an advantage. However, if most people are starting their mundane pcs with boosts, it may feel to those who cannot boost that in fact they are at a disadvantage. I'm not sure that is a good thing.

[Morgenes]

No more of a disadvantage than they were before with the way karma worked. They were relegated to non-karma roles except through special app. That has not changed. The other part of this announcement does effect everyone as longevity is now a criteria for karma awards. This means more people will have access to some karma.

[Barzalene]

Yes and no. Before a new warrior was a new warrior. Now you've got your new warrior and your new warrior with extras.
I think it is an issue that can be moderated by self policing. Just because a person can boost their mundane, they don't HAVE to boost every mundane.

Of course, my response assumes,perhaps mistakenly that I wasn't clear and that you didn't understand. It's possible though that you're right, but I am failing to grasp it.

[drunkendwarf]

My concern, one I hope not only staff. But also players will consider is whether it will be fair or more important fun for the new amd low karma player. It's nice to start with an advantage. However, if most people are starting their mundane pcs with boosts, it may feel to those who cannot boost that in fact they are at a disadvantage. I'm not sure that is a good thing.

This is a point I had thought of too. How is it not putting those with no karma at a disadvantage when those with karma get to bump skills right out of the gate and thus, by default, create more powerful characters?

[Delirium]

It's not much different than coming into the game as a newbie and having to work your way up to competence in comparison to those already-existing characters. Basically, experienced players get a shortcut to help them escape the initial grind that they've done a whole bunch of times.

Plus, honestly, it doesn't take that long to raise skills, if you actually work at it.

I think this issue is a molehill that doesn't need to be a mountain.

[X-D]

I agree.

So Joe spent 4 karma taking his dwarf warrior parry and disarm to advanced....Meh, give me a couple weeks.

[drunkendwarf]

It's not much different than coming into the game as a newbie and having to work your way up to competence in comparison to those already-existing characters. Basically, experienced players get a shortcut to help them escape the initial grind that they've done a whole bunch of times.

Plus, honestly, it doesn't take that long to raise skills, if you actually work at it.

I think this issue is a molehill that doesn't need to be a mountain.

I'll agree this is a lesser issue, but something I think should be pointed out. I'll also agree I can't see me using any char-gen points to bump skills at all, ever. I'll use 'em for race, guild and sub-guilds. Just seems a waste to spend them on something I can do with a bit of patience.

[Barzalene]

I won't argue that. It may be a complete non-issue, but because it is a potential problem it bears consideration.

Your argument made sense to me initially. The issue is there is a difference between being the weakest pc in a given room and always being the weakest pc in any room.

[Rhyden]

And Rhyden, Gee, that is what the game really needs, even less conflict and more angst when somebody does get PK'd or a silly code death. I foresee more rage quits and rants in the future.

I'm not sure how stressing importance on long-lived characters and offering casual players more flexible roles will cause less conflict IG and more angst from PKs and accidental deaths. I believe conflict has little to do with players' karma level, and everything to do with how characters involve (or don't involve) other characters. There will always be angst from PKs, but now there will be a higher sense of caution when dealing with high-karma roles, because A. they can't repeatedly make the same high-karma characters, and B. these high-karma characters will be rarer. As for silly code deaths, well, that's always a concern and has little to do with the topic at hand. Sure, it would be nice if staff were a little more lenient when it comes to quirky code deaths, but that discussion is for another topic.

[number13]

Just seems a waste to spend them on something I can do with a bit of patience.

I, on the other hand, do not enjoy grinding out skills in order to have fun. I want to step out of the gate with something to do other than suck for the first RL week or three of play.  If anything, the proposed system probably doesn't go far enough for my tastes.

....Will it still be possible to app for really special stuff when the system is fully in place?  Like, playing a gith or having infravision?

[X-D]

Dude, being more careful by definition means taking less risks, taking less risks means making less conflict. Something that, IMO is at an all time low already. If you cannot see that...then I don't know what to say.

As to the angst, that is usually something that happens when somebody loses a PC to something they see as not their fault, be it code or PK. Currently, when that happens, they get upset, sure, but they can, if they wish, roll up almost exactly the same PC if they want, or maybe they want to try that drovian...whatever.


New system, You lose a PC and don't think it is your fault, but oh wait, the cost is now MUCH higher, not only did you lose the PC, you used karma on the race and sub so you actually lost a PC AND 3 or more karma. So, angst level MUCH higher.

And as somebody else mentioned, High karma guilds are already targets...this will make the griefers see them as that much bigger targets, some people knowing that killing that newb sorc means that player can't make anything above HG for several months...Heh.

[Delirium]

Well, sorcs should already be killed on sight, so if anything, this helps reinforce the rarity and danger of surviving as one.

Also, I've seen a lot of conflict, and in places where people usually complain that there's a lack of it.

So maybe it's all about perception and location.

[Zoltan]

I won't argue that. It may be a complete non-issue, but because it is a potential problem it bears consideration.

Your argument made sense to me initially. The issue is there is a difference between being the weakest pc in a given room and always being the weakest pc in any room.

You spend your gen karma to get those boosts, all the way down to 1 karma point. Unless your characters are surviving for months on end, you're not going to be rolling super-powered mundanes every single time.

So, you got people like me that are serial karma-class players who'll actually have to wait around a bit to save up and make super-warrior. And then balance that with the fact that their gen karma is wiped out for a time and they won't be able to play their beloved Elkrans immediately afterward. I dunno... seems to me like the basic premise will work out.

[Barzalene]

I also hate the grind. I think I am willing to endure it some portion of the time if it will significantly improve the over all game climate. I don't yet know if it matters. As Delirium pointed out, it may be a nom-issue.

[Jingo]

I personally know that I will probably always be spending my points on either duel-wield or two-handed for my rangers and assassins now. Just so parry branches earlier.

[Bacon]

I'm probably most excited about the extended subguilds options than anything. I'd probably use points toward skill boosts also but that would depend on what I'm playing and how much time I have to play. I'd be more likely to use them on extended subguild options unless my playtime is restricted due to real life, then it would be skill boosts to cut down on the grind.

[wizturbo]

Here's an important question:

How do sponsered roles fall into this?  Will players need to spend their banked char gen points to tweak these roles, or will some of them come with extra character gen points to play with?

If sponsered roles don't make you spend your own char gen points, that makes them much more enticing to play, which is a good thing in my opinion.  Did you just play a d-elf sorc special app and spend all your char gen points, only to have them die a month later?  Why not apply for that Templar role the staff are posting?  While you wait for your char gen pool to regen, you can dish out some justice in the name of the Highlord.

[Cutthroat]

Dude, being more careful by definition means taking less risks, taking less risks means making less conflict. Something that, IMO is at an all time low already. If you cannot see that...then I don't know what to say.

I can understand your line of reasoning, but I disagree with you. Being more careful means taking appropriate risks. It means playing with some common sense about what your character can possibly survive, or not survive. It means there will be conflict on all levels, but at least it will have the chance to escalate rather than remaining very high or staying very low.

And I'll never get the argument that conflict is almost gone from the game. It's a matter of perspective. Person A doesn't see any conflict, while other players are having a blast with player conflict. Hell, there's been recent player-initiated conflict in game that got so big it's on the history pages now. That's just the nature of the game.

As to the angst, that is usually something that happens when somebody loses a PC to something they see as not their fault, be it code or PK. Currently, when that happens, they get upset, sure, but they can, if they wish, roll up almost exactly the same PC if they want, or maybe they want to try that drovian...whatever.

New system, You lose a PC and don't think it is your fault, but oh wait, the cost is now MUCH higher, not only did you lose the PC, you used karma on the race and sub so you actually lost a PC AND 3 or more karma. So, angst level MUCH higher.

We're currently discouraged from rolling the same PC over and over, even if the circumstances of the death are bad. It just happens to be less standardized, with staff only going out of their way to do this when they notice it becomes a problem. With the new system they don't have to notice.

And as somebody else mentioned, High karma guilds are already targets...this will make the griefers see them as that much bigger targets, some people knowing that killing that newb sorc means that player can't make anything above HG for several months...Heh.

Griefers are already taken care of through the player complaint system. I don't see why a staff member wouldn't be able to award generation points to a player that gets their Nilazi or Sorcerer grief-killed early on and puts in a player complaint.

Being targeted legitimately, on the other hand, is something those PCs have to deal with. As a game design issue, it's the cost of the power they receive.

[Reiloth]

Dude, being more careful by definition means taking less risks, taking less risks means making less conflict. Something that, IMO is at an all time low already. If you cannot see that...then I don't know what to say.

As to the angst, that is usually something that happens when somebody loses a PC to something they see as not their fault, be it code or PK. Currently, when that happens, they get upset, sure, but they can, if they wish, roll up almost exactly the same PC if they want, or maybe they want to try that drovian...whatever.


New system, You lose a PC and don't think it is your fault, but oh wait, the cost is now MUCH higher, not only did you lose the PC, you used karma on the race and sub so you actually lost a PC AND 3 or more karma. So, angst level MUCH higher.

And as somebody else mentioned, High karma guilds are already targets...this will make the griefers see them as that much bigger targets, some people knowing that killing that newb sorc means that player can't make anything above HG for several months...Heh.

If I could offer a weird comparison...

When I used to play Everquest when I was like 13, dying S-U-C-K-E-D. You'd lose a shitload of experience, have to go get your corpse, and potentially die multiple times while trying to retrieve your equipment. The Angst Level for that blew. I would get so pissed, i'd run into the bathroom and pop pimples or ragequit.

When I used to play Asheron's Call, they had a vitae system...It was like a percentage loss on all stats and abilities. The more you died, the higher the vitae, which went away with time. The Angst was much lower, and I had a bunch more fun playing that game.

I can see what X-D is saying -- Certainly, my angst level will go up. Will I not be as risky? Hell no, I like taking risks in Armageddon regardless of post-death consequences. But -- It will be a bummer if I put a lot of CGP into a mundane who dies in a week or two, only to log in and be at square 1 anyways. I also did enjoy bouncing around from low-karma to high-karma, which will just take more...Careful planning, now, heh.

[wizturbo]

Why not give players a 'reset' on some long cooldown that refreshes all their char gen points to full?  Maybe it can only be done once year, but it'll take the sting out of an unlucky death for 'expensive' character concepts.

[Cutthroat]

Here's an important question:

How do sponsered roles fall into this?  Will players need to spend their banked char gen points to tweak these roles, or will some of them come with extra character gen points to play with?

If sponsered roles don't make you spend your own char gen points, that makes them much more enticing to play, which is a good thing in my opinion.  Did you just play a d-elf sorc special app and spend all your char gen points, only to have them die a month later?  Why not apply for that Templar role the staff are posting?  While you wait for your char gen pool to regen, you can dish out some justice in the name of the Highlord.

That's a good question. I'm also hoping this will allow for more varieties of sponsored roles, like sergeants (or equivalent) of other clans besides the Byn, that the staff can call for if they see a spot for a particular role that they would like to see filled. Then extra char gen points can be used as an incentive to get more interested players to go for these roles, while still allowing players to spend from their own points.

[Rhyden]

Dude, being more careful by definition means taking less risks, taking less risks means making less conflict. Something that, IMO is at an all time low already. If you cannot see that...then I don't know what to say.

Sure, by taking less risks you are being more careful, therefore less risks means less conflict. It's the player's decision, really. If the player wants more conflict, they will take more risks. If they prefer to attempt a very cautious life style, they'll take less risks. Armageddon needs both risk-takers and the overly cautious, and everyone in between. I still don't agree that the new karma point system will restrict conflict. Like I said, it's all up to the players.

As to the angst, that is usually something that happens when somebody loses a PC to something they see as not their fault, be it code or PK. Currently, when that happens, they get upset, sure, but they can, if they wish, roll up almost exactly the same PC if they want, or maybe they want to try that drovian...whatever.

New system, You lose a PC and don't think it is your fault, but oh wait, the cost is now MUCH higher, not only did you lose the PC, you used karma on the race and sub so you actually lost a PC AND 3 or more karma. So, angst level MUCH higher.

I'm sure if your Drovian gets killed by some sort of bug, you could submit a request to restore your karma level. Otherwise, it's kind of poor form to reroll the same character, or continue rolling up high-karma characters, IMO.

And as somebody else mentioned, High karma guilds are already targets...this will make the griefers see them as that much bigger targets, some people knowing that killing that newb sorc means that player can't make anything above HG for several months...Heh.

All the more reason to be more careful, calculating, and dare I say - realistic with your character? Especially the high-karma sorcerer types, who always have to fight an uphill battle now anyways.