Discussion Thread: Karma Changes

[Cutthroat]

Players with high karma are supposed to be responsible for varying their own play, sticking mostly with what they prefer while branching out and trying different things. So while I understand if a player may prefer playing high-karma guilds or races, I also understand staff's desire to see players challenge themselves. And ultimately, if it's going to be the 4+ guild and race options that cost karma, and the lowest it can go down to is 3, then you're paying one point to play a Whiran or Krathi. That will come back in a month. There's no telling what the higher options will cost, but it's still possible that it will cost 1, 2, or 3 karma which isn't really too much of a wait to ask from a player that just got a chance to play a rare guild or race.

I'm pretty confident if I spend X karma on a character, I can keep it alive for at least X months.

And maybe that is what staff is really trying to encourage here anyway, instead of making mages and muls rarer. Encouraging a slower pace of play rather than a riskier one seems like it will keep more storied characters in the game.

But I agree that there should be a fail-safe where if you get killed very early on something you spent a lot of points on, staff will at least consider your situation and give you your karma back right away. It could be done through the request tool so that staff can examine the situation, rather than having it be automated. If you get really unlucky, they'll know, but they'll also know if you just committed suicide or something.

[Gimfalisette]

X-D, I'm just gonna say again...do you have the numbers to support your assertion that there's a vocal minority who wants these things? I don't think any of us players know what the numbers are. So statements that staff is doing this in response to a vocal minority are invalid because they are not supportable with the available evidence.

And that is all. You don't have the numbers, I don't have the numbers, it's plain silly to argue about it. But I don't like players attempting to claim that somehow they do have the numbers and/or that they speak for me or for anyone but themselves.

[wizturbo]

BTW, the Average wait for special apps this year is more then 35 days...just FYI.

Just 3 months...Yes, 90 days is not that long, its only a quarter a year.

* X-D rolls his eyes

I believe one of the side effects of this change will be that the special app queue won't be so long anymore.  People use special apps to play characters they cannot play today, in large part because of the limited subguild/guild system.  Once these changes go in, that flexibility will be there, and there should be less of a need for special apps in general.

Also, it doesn't sound like it would be difficult for the staff to tweak the recharge time or lower the karma cost on choices if it feels slow once everything is implemented. 

[Lizzie]

BTW, the Average wait for special apps this year is more then 35 days...just FYI.

Just 3 months...Yes, 90 days is not that long, its only a quarter a year.

* X-D rolls his eyes

I believe one of the side effects of this change will be that the special app queue won't be so long anymore.  People use special apps to play characters they cannot play today, in large part because of the limited subguild/guild system.  Once these changes go in, that flexibility will be there, and there should be less of a need for special apps in general.

There aren't that many special apps in the first place. Probably because the wait time was longer than a month. However, now that the wait time to regen enough karma to play things you used to be able to app normally, and be approved within 24 hours, is now raised to 1 month per point of karma over the initial 3, I'm guessing the number of special apps will go UP, dramatically.

Because now, all the things people who -have- karma for, didn't have to wait to apply for, they will now have to wait to apply for. And the wait can be up to 5 months depending on how much they used up for their last character. Special app time is significantly less than that (though a few weeks ago, I saw there were 3 special apps, and the average processing time for them was 77 days. Still less than what you will be able to expect for -normal- apps for karma roles, with this new change).

[X-D]

Well Gimf, Lets look at it.
First you have to define vocal, which for this discussion means GDB posters, So the numbers in fact ARE there.
Then, casual players. First you have to define that, from what has been mentioned on the GDB that seems to be defined by a player who plays around or less then 4 hours a week and the number of people that claim to be such is between 6 and 8...but hell, lets say 10, then there are about 40-60 people that post out of the what around 270 mud accounts?

So 10 people out of a possible what 50 casual players...hell, that is a minority in just the casual players, and casual players are a minority of players. Now, looking back at the last few mage hating threads, you come up with about six people who are vocal about that, even in past polls they came out in the minority.

Need I go on?

As to the last point, Unless somebody named you and said "And speaking for Gimf and Nyr and Synth..."
But wait, nobody did.

Now, it is possible that Staff has gotten hundreds of complaints on the request tool having to do with mage limiting and casual play and Karma being more fair etc. But that was not stated in the post Akoto responded to so one has to assume it was from the GDB, and if that is the case the numbers are there and so the argument is not invalid.

And why? Because the number of people that even post on the GDB is a Minority of players, So even if EVERY SINGLE POSTER WANTED THE SAME THING, IT WOULD STILL BE THE VOCAL MINORITY.

[Bacon]

As I think about it, I don't know that it will be a huge deal but I can see where the karma regen might kinda suck for some people. I'd say, either make karma only "spent" when using the master subguild options or skill boosts but not affecting guild/race karma options or...instead decreasing the karma regen time. Maybe a point every two weeks or something. I don't know exactly. Perhaps make it so karma guild/race options of 6, 7, or 8 spend points off but 1-5 don't.

[Delirium]

Do we really need an argument over this? Why don't we see how things work out once this is implemented, and keep the discussion to questions, clarifications, and feedback directly related to the proposed system?

This change seems indicative of a desire to accommodate the needs of the playerbase as a whole, and I for one am thankful for it.

[X-D]

I still think there has to be a Grace period before karma deduction.

Because if we are to be honest, for the most part, I think all of us that have more then 1 karma, If we manage to keep the PC alive for a week we can normaly keep them alive for as long as we want. Barring power outages etc, but that can be takin up with staff on a case by case basis.

[wizturbo]

Agreed, let's just wait and see.  Tweaks to a complex system like this are inevitable.  I'm sure the goal here is to make the game more fun, not put a large portion of the player base on time out, unable to play the roles they want.

[MeTekillot]

I like the idea that I didn't come up with where they don't deduct karma for main guilds but they do for the new stuff.

[Lizzie]

I like the idea that I didn't come up with where they don't deduct karma for main guilds but they do for the new stuff.

I think many of us have posted agreement with this suggestion, or posted the suggestion itself.

[Reiloth]

I like the idea all around. i think Seph's point of challenging high-karma players is a good one. I also think X-D's idea of a grace period is a fair one -- Lord knows how many times I started a Magicker and died within a RL week to some newbish newbdom mistake.

Did we ever get a number on how many new subguilds are going in? Ish?

[Adhira]

Currently if you special app a sorceror, nilazi, mul, psi or other high karma class or race it will be assessed against how many others of that type are already in game and may be refused on that basis. That will not be happening with the new system as it will be somewhat more self regulating.

We've also heard your call for some kind of grace period.  We will discuss this. It seems reasonable that there may be a grace period though it is unlikely to be a week as someone mentioned.  Other muds do have this yes, but some other muds also 'consume' the karma or roleplay points and you have to earn them all over again. We'll come up with an equitable solution if possible.

Using the average processing time for special apps isn't a good way to judge how fast those are taking.  Sometimes a special app will be in the queue longer as we're corresponding with a player on make changes to the app so it can be accepted. Or there may be too many of a class and I've asked them to wait a month to see if things free up, leaving the app open as a reminder.  Most special apps are processed within a 3 week timeframe and I anticipate that the new system will make it quicker as there will be less variables and we can have other staff members working on approvals.

Like any new implementation I am sure there will be revisions along the way. Players have made some suggestions already and we've made some changes.  Suggestions are great, we're more than happy to entertain suggestions, it's also really nice when they're worded as a suggestion, not a confrontation.  I'm sure that this will be a learning curve for everyone, things will alter from the original presentation, hopefully we'll come out with something that meets the intent of staff - a system that actually has some perks and benefits to the playerbase. If it fails to do that... well we can always retain the status quo.

I'd also like to ask that the arguments on this thread cease.  We've had some good discussion on this so far, but if the thread continues to devolve in to arguments it will be locked.

[mangler]

It's been said elsewhere that everyone will have 1 karma available to them.. correct me if i'm being an idiot but does this basically mean that desert elves are no longer a karma race? Provided that karma is not used up for races/guilds below 3. It does seem to kind of devalue the first karma that everyone has earnt this far by doing XYZ things.

[X-D]

Seph's point of challenging high-karma players

I do not, In fact, every time somebody mentions forcing players "out of comfort zone" Or challenging them with roles they don't like, I really have to step back from the GDB because I'm grabbin the flame thrower.

Like me, I do not play Breeds or Muls, Not because I can't do it, because i HATE HATE HATE playing them. I play a mage now and again but overall, I dislike them, I am far more likely to kill off or store a mage in two months or less then anything else.

But you say, Hey, Don't play a Breed or mul if you hate them so much, and of course...I do not.

But now, this coming system will force people to do just that, It will limit choices to people who have earned those choices, it will force people to either play things they do not want, or more likely to simply not play till the karma regens. And honestly, most people will only do that so many times till they simply stop playing altogether.

And in the end, it is a game, you PLAY games for enjoyment. If you do not enjoy something, you will not play...it is that simple. And sure, we all have that choice, but as has been mentioned before, Muds are a dying class of gaming, it is a slow death but every player or staffer lost hastens that end.

I've known of players that play only Half-giants or only desert elves, and some of those players did so for 6, 7, 10 years or more. But it is rare to see anybody complain about that, and in fact, though you or I might think that is boring, They enjoy it and who are we to impose on that? The higher karma classes and races are no different.

(edit)
Not to mention, usually, by the time somebody has 6+ karma, They have played maybe hundreds of the 0-3 karma options...might be a tad bit bored with them and certainly not a challenge, as they almost had to have played them to get to 6+ karma anyway.

[HavokBlue]

It's been said elsewhere that everyone will have 1 karma available to them.. correct me if i'm being an idiot but does this basically mean that desert elves are no longer a karma race? Provided that karma is not used up for races/guilds below 3. It does seem to kind of devalue the first karma that everyone has earnt this far by doing XYZ things.

I think you're reading something wrong. You still have to earn your first karma point, but you will never ever drop below that one karma point no matter how many points you spend on stat boosts or subguilds or whatnot.

[spicemustflow]

Yeah, what X-D said. Anyway, when are seeing the new subguilds?

[Taven]

Taven's Understanding of the New Karma System (Version 2)

How Karma is Awarded

Karma is awarded on a mix of the following categories:

• Longevity - This is how long you've been playing the game, without doing something bad. If you've been playing ages, you get points!
• Good communication - This is being clear and polite when communicating with staff, and making an effort to do so as needed or regularly
• Ability to roleplay - This is more then just emoting, but is taking the game world into account. It may also mean playing in more then one location, and having a variety of character types (IE, not all your characters have the same personality and guild)
• Proven understanding of magick and its place in the game world - You do NOT need to play a magicker for this. This means rather that you understand how magick is viewed in society. You don't go around treating gemmers like normal people for no reason, and you don't talk about how awesome magick is in Tuluk (more complex, but you get the basic idea)
• Proven understanding of cultural and racial structures - This could be about understanding how Tuluk is subtle, or how elves and breeds are perceived in the world. It might be also playing a good character of a specific race or in a specific culture (for example, an elf doing tests of trust, etc)
• Contributes to the game - This could be a variety of things. Does your character add to the game, either by making plots or by providing people with interesting RP? Are you as a player contributing (for example when staff has calls for submissions)? That sort of thing.
• Leadership - This is for leadership in general, not clan leadership. If you are a low level nobody but plan a lot of events for your clan, or an indie who works to lead and coordinate, that would count

You won't get details on exact criteria karma is awarded for, but you will get an indication of which areas (for example "Awarded karma point for longevity"). While you can special app to have an addition 3 points of karma if you hit the maximum, the maximum will still continue to be 8 points. Any of the above categories can have upto two points, except in logevity, where you can only have one (updated for accuracy). Karma will be reviewed when players request their account notes (although it can also be reviewed at staff discretion). It will be possible to lose karma or gain it, so be aware of this before requesting account notes.

Karma Spending Details

Things that Do Not Cost Karma

• Karma guilds/races at points 1, 2 and 3 - These do not incur any cost. Choosing one of these guilds will not make you spend any karma points. These include desert elf, vivaduan, rukkian, and half-giant.

Things that Do Cost Karma

• Extended Subguilds (point cost varies) - this includes magick subguilds, and mastercraft subguilds (such as mastercrafting in tailoring)
• Skill Bumps (one point per level bump) - You spend karma to raise a starting skill. You may not boost a weapons skill more than 2 skill levels. You may not boost offense and defense. You do not raise the skillcap for the skill. If you spend enough points to gain a master rank in a skill that branches, you will start with the skill branched. However, you cannot spend karma on branched skills. In addition, if you start with a master crafting skill, you can submit mastercrafts for that skill right away (keep in mind that the limit on number of master crafts is per player character, not account, so even if you just submitted a Master Craft with your pc and died, you could do that with your next pc).
• Guilds/races at the 4-8 Karma ranking (point costs varies, karma level will not drop below 3 points) - This would be Whirans, Krathi, Elkrosians, Drovians, Nilazi, Muls, Sorcerers, and Psionicists

Think of it like an Armageddon prompt item (stamina, hp, or mana points). You might have 6/6 Karma, and then spend 3 to play a magicker. You now have 3/6 Karma, and will regenerate the karma spent at one point per month, or three months. If your "scores" (IE your karma ranking) gets better, this is reflected in your Karma points. You might then have 7 Karma. Karma regenerates while you are playing, naturally over time. However, if your karma PC dies before your points are regenerated, you will not have them to spend. You will never go below 1 karma point (think of it like if these were stun points, you'd never pass out). You must still earn all your karma. IE, a newbie does NOT start out with one karma. It's just that once you have at least one karma, you can't spend it to 0.

Old characters will not be adjusted for new guilds, and are stuck being what they are. There is no ETA for the karma change.

[Bacon]

You forgot muls and nilazi.

I was also thinking...I think skill boosting for half-giants should cost twice as many points as other races of characters.

[Taven]

1. Skill bumping does not autobranch you. So let's say I want to spend a bunch of karma points to boost my "pooper scooper" level to master, and I know that the "pooper scooper" skill branches into the "poop crafting" skill. If I spend those points, I WILL be a master in pooper scooper, but I WON'T branch from it. So when do I branch and get the skill "poop crafting," if my "pooper scooper" starts at master?

Did we say skill bumping does not autobranch you?  If we did, that is incorrect.  You can branch new skills through skill gains at character creation.  You CANNOT apply skill gains to skills that were branched from skill gains in char generation.  So, to use your example, if you applied karma to 'pooper scooper' to master, it would branch 'poop crafting', but you could not apply any karma points to 'poop crafting' to raise it up.  That make sense?

Yes, it had been said, thanks for clearing that up. Also, yes, that does make sense. Thanks! 

You forgot muls and nilazi.

I was also thinking...I think skill boosting for half-giants should cost twice as many points as other races of characters.

Updated.

I think that skill boosting for half-giants is only really terrifying in the case of combat skills, but that should be considered.

[Bacon]

I think that skill boosting for half-giants is only really terrifying in the case of combat skills, but that should be considered.

True. Maybe only double points to boost combat skills on half-giant characters.

[X-D]

I do not believe anybody would skill boost on a HG anyway...not when you have new and interesting subs to choose from.

I know I would not.

[Taven]

I do not believe anybody would skill boost on a HG anyway...not when you have new and interesting subs to choose from.

I know I would not.

People have all sorts of varying interests, and it's something that should be considered as a possibility, even if you think it is unlikely.

I think that skill boosting for half-giants is only really terrifying in the case of combat skills, but that should be considered.

True. Maybe only double points to boost combat skills on half-giant characters.

An alternative rather then costing double points (I would never ever raise a combat skill on a half-giant if that were true), you could instead pick a cap for them. Such as "half-giants cannot have skills bought with karma past skill level <X>," where <X> is a reasonable level. It's already generally built in with the max of 2 bumps in a combat skill, but half-giants might need more limitations, to prevent them from being as nasty right out of the box.

[Bacon]

It's already generally built in with the max of 2 bumps in a combat skill, but half-giants might need more limitations, to prevent them from being as nasty right out of the box.

I get that but my thoughts are on a half-giant starting with two bumps is a pretty big deal considering how long it takes for them to learn that much normally. It's a much bigger deal when compared to pcs that learn much faster and lack the strengths of a half-giant. They can already be sick out of the box with their starting skills. This may even be something to give some thought to with dwarves as well. The slow learning of these races is probably their biggest limitation and skill boosts on these races I feel would have much more impact than on other races. Primarily in regards to combat, IMO.

[jstorrie]

I do not believe anybody would skill boost on a HG anyway...not when you have new and interesting subs to choose from.

I know I would not.

If I understand the system correctly, you can spend some karma on the sub, then spend even more karma on skill bumps.

I think it is a good point that these skill bumps benefit low-wisdom characters moreso than others. Perhaps it'd be wise to consider having the skill bumps affected somehow by the PC's wisdom score. If someone prioritizes wisdom just to get a bigger skill bump, well, they're also kind of throwing away the main benefit of high wisdom (by having less learning left to do)... so it'd balance out.