Realistic RP regarding languages and accents

[spicemustflow]

Totally against any changes to psi based upon language skills.

Ways are thoughts and thoughts should transcend language.

Ever seen a foreign language movie that screenplays someone's thoughts and feelings? Yeah, you still understand it though you don't know the language.

You may understand the feelings (as in, the heroine is scared shitless of the murderer) but you wouldn't understand what exactly is she saying. It is annoying when people use way to circumvent language barrier. I'm against it.

[X-D]

It amuses me that some people think they had no thoughts before they could speak.

* X-D amused.

[Scarecrow]

The advantage to knowing other languages is you can talk in them and generally most other people won't be able to understand you, making it more likely you can plot and speak of secret things without being listened in on.

[musashi]

It amuses me that some people think they had no thoughts before they could speak.

* X-D amused.

Oh hey. A strawman.

[X-D]

Hardly a straw man.

A couple people made the point that the way does/should transcend language...others have stated it should not as thought does not.

I contend that you in fact DO think BEFORE YOU have language, that people and animals without language for whatever reason including damage to the brain also continue to think. That people deaf from birth also think, even though what language they know consists of hand signs...and I really doubt they think in hand signs.
Actually, I know enough deaf people to know they do not. I contend that the only language you think in is the language of thought...you only -think- you think in a language because it is the simplest way to think of it.

So yes, the way, Being a strange fantasy brain to brain contact does indeed transcend spoken language by virtue of the language of thought.

Woot.

[musashi]

It sounds like you are monolingual.

Because the tipping point for multi-lingual speakers, the point at which they make the jump from fumbling and unable to keep up with the conversations going around them, to being an active participant, is when they can start thinking comfortably in the other language they're studying. Thus eliminating the lag they get when they hear a word in this language, then wrack their brain in their native language searching for the translation.

Can babies think in the vaguest sense of the word before language? Sure. Animals can do it too, again, in the loosest sense of the word. But can they communicate with those thoughts in the absence of a pre-established language to communicate in?

We can't know at this moment in RL for sure, though we have no evidence to suggest they could and lots of evidence to suggest they can't.

Can you Way animals and babies IG game and talk to them despite their lack of a language? NOOOOOOPE.

I'm largely indifferent to letting the Way transcend language for the sake of playability or whatever, but the assertion that people think "in the language of thought" is just kind of dumb. People think in the language(s) they have acquired, once they have acquired them.

[RogueGunslinger]

Even the deaf speak the language of signing and expression, which they also think and dream in. Communication is pretty much entirely dependent on language. There's actually been a lot of research on this topic.

[X-D]

It sounds like you are monolingual.

Far from it.

Actually tough to work here in AZ if you are.

Meh, I had posted quite a bit but deleted it because it really does not matter and is at best a derail so...carry on.

[Case]

Depends whether thought in this context is activity which you adapt into language on input and output, or a manifestation of any language you can think in, generally your native language/s.

Modern evidence shows this is somewhere in the middle - that our brains have some universal linguistic traits, but also develop along the lines of the languages we think in.

That said, I am of the opinion that thought as a conceptual activity does not cross the language barrier even for imagery (barring colour, which is evidently inherent) and as such, the Way should not bridge a language gap. The game/theme, however, does allow this. Whatever. It does cheapen languages but I think the restrictions and vulnerabilities from Waying do mitigate this somewhat.

[musashi]

Yup.

[Wug]

Depends whether thought in this context is activity which you adapt into language on input and output, or a manifestation of any language you can think in, generally your native language/s.

Modern evidence shows this is somewhere in the middle - that our brains have some universal linguistic traits, but also develop along the lines of the languages we think in.

That said, I am of the opinion that thought as a conceptual activity does not cross the language barrier even for imagery (barring colour, which is evidently inherent) and as such, the Way should not bridge a language gap. The game/theme, however, does allow this. Whatever. It does cheapen languages but I think the restrictions and vulnerabilities from Waying do mitigate this somewhat.

The Known World is geographically and linguistically small. The languages that most PCs speak, Allundean, Bendune, Cavilish, and Sirihish, are all closely related and have similar concepts, syntax, and grammar. Mirukkim is more distantly related but almost all dwarves also speak Sirihish. Verbal communication in these languages is not mutually intelligible but psionic communication is.

Psionic communication with halflings (if they were alive) and mantis is not possible in the same way because their languages do not share commonalities.

[Maso]

As a mostly random thought, I'd quite like to see the acquisition and imitation of accents be harder. Right now you can imitate an accent or not at all. It would be cooler if it had skill levels like languages because really, being able to deceive in regards to your ethnicity is a pretty good skill to have, especially convincing locals that you too are a local. It would be nice perhaps if it worked so that the lower your skill at an accent the more chance there would be of randomly slipping backing into your 'real' accent. Also, if there was no cap to the skill level of accents, then whatever your 'real' accent was would be determined by which had the highest skill level (if you grow up in London but then move at 15 to NY and live there for 25 years...you're probably going to lose that London accent for good)...but the skill level would probably need to increase just by use/practise rather than the way others skills go up.

</waffle>

[musashi]

I like that idea, although without a "base" accent to disignate what does the game do when you have 2 accents at the same skill level? Just roll a die? What happens when you max out 2 accents completely and even when you're not trying to blend into a different culture you still end up slipping up once in a blue moon.

[RogueGunslinger]

Depends whether thought in this context is activity which you adapt into language on input and output, or a manifestation of any language you can think in, generally your native language/s.

Modern evidence shows this is somewhere in the middle - that our brains have some universal linguistic traits, but also develop along the lines of the languages we think in.

That said, I am of the opinion that thought as a conceptual activity does not cross the language barrier even for imagery (barring colour, which is evidently inherent) and as such, the Way should not bridge a language gap. The game/theme, however, does allow this. Whatever. It does cheapen languages but I think the restrictions and vulnerabilities from Waying do mitigate this somewhat.

Is color evidently inherent because one can imagine a green kalan, and anyone else who's seen a kalan suddenly knows that "green" is it's color?

[Case]

Depends whether thought in this context is activity which you adapt into language on input and output, or a manifestation of any language you can think in, generally your native language/s.

Modern evidence shows this is somewhere in the middle - that our brains have some universal linguistic traits, but also develop along the lines of the languages we think in.

That said, I am of the opinion that thought as a conceptual activity does not cross the language barrier even for imagery (barring colour, which is evidently inherent) and as such, the Way should not bridge a language gap. The game/theme, however, does allow this. Whatever. It does cheapen languages but I think the restrictions and vulnerabilities from Waying do mitigate this somewhat.

Is color evidently inherent because one can imagine a green kalan, and anyone else who's seen a kalan suddenly knows that "green" is it's color?

Sure. Colour's just an interaction between your eyes/brain and electromagnetic radiation. The frequencies behind each colour are fixed. The brain doesn't seem to need to associate an understanding of language with colours, although there's cultural associations and some instinctive understandings(blood, what food colours are appealing, etc)

[musashi]

Of course this is only evidently inherent for other people, as different animals have different hardware in the eye department.

[Maso]

I like that idea, although without a "base" accent to disignate what does the game do when you have 2 accents at the same skill level? Just roll a die? What happens when you max out 2 accents completely and even when you're not trying to blend into a different culture you still end up slipping up once in a blue moon.

The one that had the highest skill level first would be the 'base', and it should take a seriously long time to overtake whatever accent your character was 'born' with and have the base change. No max...it just keeps going to allow for the base to change. And base never fails, other accents would stop failing too once they reached a certain point. There would still be a 'master' level (no fails), just no max cap.

It would be cool if you couldn't see your skill level either. It's wouldn't be about being 'leet', it would just be a cool tool for more realistic RP...your character spends a lot of time in the North you'd switch to Northern because it makes sense...but it doesn't matter that they slip up and their southern accent comes through - because they're not trying to deceive actively, they've just picked up a northern twang!

"Do I hear a bit of the South in you?"

[Case]

There's a lot about the language code on Arm I don't like. Random scrambling, picking up languages from listening to them at random, no difference between native and non native languages, people beyond their teens learning languages to full skill, apparently everybody being talented with accents up to native ability...

It's not how language works.

Why?
Random scrambling : makes a weird curve of what you can understand and when. You don't mishear phonemes, you don't grasp gist or don't know the words or the grammar. Code makes this tricky to replicate but there's better methods.

Picking up languages at random: You learn languages through conscious effort or full immersion with active participation. You cannot learn to speak a language by one speaker saying the same word over and over.

Learning languages, age, native, non native, accents: Around 15 or so, most people lose the ability to learn to create sounds from other languages properly and will struggle to develop new languages. They may learn them, but will sound awkward or different, forever. Same deal with accents although skill with language doesn't equate to skill with accent and vice versa, oddly enough.


Some of these things can be mimicked in code Languages as game tools as only as useful as their ability to restrict information in given contexts. The more languages everybody has, the less languages matter.

[Dakota]

Case,

I just want to point out that last week, I was in Zagreb, Croatia. Czechs like to think we understand 80% of their language.. But that wasn't the case.

I understood about 20% if that (mainly curse words and prepositions).

In fact as I was in a bar (Domus, which if you're in Zagreb ever.. GO TO), drinking copious amounts of wine and laughing with old friends, I thought of arm when I couldn't understand much of anything (meaning we spoke mainly in english).. But when they spoke in their native tongue, I'd catch an inkling of a word or a full word, followed by a scrambled mess that sounded.. Well.. Not much like anything save for the rare sound of familiarity.

The point is, I'm not sure how learning languages work.. But I can assure you that once you step out of the latin-based languages, all bets are off in terms of coherence with what you should and shouldn't understand... And this was a half-slav speaking a slavic tongue in a slavic country.. But we had to resort to english b/c we couldn't understand each other

[Kismetic]

Case is right, for the most part.  That's why I learned how to properly pronounce words in French, German and Russian as a teenager.  But at 32, my Mandarin accent isn't too shabby for a white boy*.

The quirks of language code is something we must endure.  An overhaul would be a huge project, when there are better places for that effort.  I think we're lucky to have any language code, at all.  It really makes the game fleshed out.

Modern evidence shows this is somewhere in the middle - that our brains have some universal linguistic traits, but also develop along the lines of the languages we think in.

I think it's interesting that you say that, too, because I generally don't think in words, unless I'm consciously doing so.  But there's always a stupid ass awful song going through my mind ...  right now, it's Teach Me How To Dougie.

[Patuk]

If I were to apply this to real life, having

Code Select Expand

Language skills
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Dutch                      (master) nerd accent

Equals to

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Language skills
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sirihish                      (master) German     <journeyman>
nerd accent 

For most people, anyway. I don't mind the dikumud language code that much myself.

[Morrolan]

I think it's interesting that you say that, too, because I generally don't think in words, unless I'm consciously doing so.

Ayup. It's a rare person that's wired this way, but it does happen.

I've heard people argue that it doesn't, that all thinking is necessarily in a language.

But the people arguing that were wrong. As a trained meditation instructor, I can say that with 100% certainty.

[Malken]

Hmm? I'm pretty sure that nowadays, I mostly think in English, even though French is my native language, which is why I tend to realize that I think in English.

[Jenred]

People need to stop just tacking on a random comment to the end of threads that have been dead for a month that cover points either already addressed.
There is really no way to make the learning of languages realistic without actually coding out each language.
The way the system is now is the best way to to have it so that you can actually learn languages. Yes its not realistic, yes its purely random which words you will understand as you start to grasp the language, but its better than not being able to ever pick up a language - and until someone codes out a full language and linguistic basis for all the made up languages, there won't really be anything else.

[Patuk]

People need to stop just tacking on a random comment to the end of threads that have been dead for a month that cover points either already addressed.
There is really no way to make the learning of languages realistic without actually coding out each language.
The way the system is now is the best way to to have it so that you can actually learn languages. Yes its not realistic, yes its purely random which words you will understand as you start to grasp the language, but its better than not being able to ever pick up a language - and until someone codes out a full language and linguistic basis for all the made up languages, there won't really be anything else.

^ point has already been addressed.