Armor.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'm of the opinion that heavy armor is way too powerful in this game. That if it weren't so protective, there'd be a lot less of the idea that Strength is the greatest stat for warriors. Realistically I think that fighting in armor, in the hotter climates, should be very detrimental. I believe that if this were so we'd see a lot more armored Tuluki's and sand-cloth adorned southerns. But as it is everyone and their grandmother is decked out in the heaviest shit they can codedly wear without slipping past heavy but manageable.

That said I'm pretty much a noob to coded things, and I could be wrong on the balance of this. But as it stands, there's practically zero incentive to play a character that aligns with the documentation of the southern cities.

[Bacon]

I disagree. I think it's fine. And not everyone decks themselves out in the heaviest shit possible. It depends on the character for me. I've had characters that used lots of ranges of armors. There is plenty of incentive to play a character that aligns with their cities as far as combat styles and gear. I guess I'm confused as to why you believe there isn't. I can't remember the last time played a southern combat pc that wore heavy armor.

To add: There are also negatives to each style as far as armor goes as well. Both different but both are there.

[Bilanthri]

Skill can eventually outshine strength. Roughly a year ago, my character was heavily into sparring. I regularly trained with a clan member who was so weak that she couldn't even wear armor aside from the lightest of leathers. For the longest time she would hit me with training daggers but never get through my medium to heavy armor. After a few months of practice, she finally began doing damage, and, at that point, she really didn't miss very often. If she had been the warrior guild, she would have been that much more effective, even with her abysmal strength score.

However, I do agree that a lot of people seem to disregard the regional docs when it comes to armor and weapon style choices. It can take a lot to shift from the gamer mind-set to the role-play mind-set.

[Jeshin]

* There is a definite different between light / easily managed / heavy / unbelievable you might not notice it but it's there.
* Certain armors provide benefits and drawbacks beyond the ability to say: "Aha, tis but a scratch!"
* I think you'll actually find sandcloth is the most common armor type. Nearly every PC had at least a piece or two. [Especially when in clans that do enforce an armor dress code like Noble Houses]
* I think a lot of players are picky about what their gear looks like. Go talk to a Salarr sometime about their armor selection. Maybe look and see how many different color schemes and styles there are?

[Clavis]

Skill can eventually outshine strength. Roughly a year ago, my character was heavily into sparring. I regularly trained with a clan member who was so weak that she couldn't even wear armor aside from the lightest of leathers. For the longest time she would hit me with training daggers but never get through my medium to heavy armor. After a few months of practice, she finally began doing damage, and, at that point, she really didn't miss very often. If she had been the warrior guild, she would have been that much more effective, even with her abysmal strength score.

However, I do agree that a lot of people seem to disregard the regional docs when it comes to armor and weapon style choices. It can take a lot to shift from the gamer mind-set to the role-play mind-set.

this cause lost my train of thought and Jeshin's post as well

[Inky]

Skill can eventually outshine strength. Roughly a year ago, my character was heavily into sparring. I regularly trained with a clan member who was so weak that she couldn't even wear armor aside from the lightest of leathers. For the longest time she would hit me with training daggers but never get through my medium to heavy armor. After a few months of practice, she finally began doing damage, and, at that point, she really didn't miss very often. If she had been the warrior guild, she would have been that much more effective, even with her abysmal strength score.

However, I do agree that a lot of people seem to disregard the regional docs when it comes to armor and weapon style choices. It can take a lot to shift from the gamer mind-set to the role-play mind-set.

Just gonna point out with that character,she was an elf that started with poor strength. That was a BITCH.

I had to beg the imms to reorder my stats and then ended up with average strength. That was marginally more manageable.

I wish she lived a few days longer to see how much better she would get. Though I remember a human assassin with relatively less training would pummel her in the sparring ring.

Though I wish she lived longer so I could see exactly what the discrepancy between low strength assassins of different races would be.

[X-D]

All of my best warriors and rangers wore almost no armor at all.

Including the ones that Won in luirfest pit fights, Of which I have 3 and 2 runner ups.

Armors, as has been stated, have bonuses and negs.  Heavy armor for those that can really wear it...and by really wear it I mean strong enough that even in horror plate they are not encumbered beyond light. Generally have a true need, why, because they have low agi and speed. And it only makes sense that somebody who cannot dodge for shit should be wearing heavier protection.

Also, generally, the protectiveness of heavier armors is FAR less then you might think. Far below what they really should be when you check the descriptions.

Lastly, it sorta seems to me that often when people complain about armor it is because they have a weak or low skill PC and want to even the field...which to me is sort of lame.

I think Arm has a very good balance, skill trumps gear by a large margin but gear is good enough to be useful. I know of other muds where gear is 90% of a fight. The 1 day PC in steel plate will beat the 50 day master skilled PC in scale, every single time. In arm this is not the case. In arm the 50 day poor str elf has a very good chance to beat the 1 day HG in plate. Sure, it would take a very long time, and there is a risk the HG could land a lucky blow and end the fight...but then, that is as it should be as well.

[RogueGunslinger]

Seems like thinks really do work how I'd expect them to. Wonder why I really don't see that reflected in what characters use in-game. They're probably all like me, just ignorant.

[X-D]

Actually RGS...you are correct.

No joke now, When I am playing a killer or raider or another type that might target others.

My PC pays close attention to the weight of the gear on the target. And if he sees somebody who is over weight armor wise compared to likely str, They are a far more likely target then somebody in low weight items.

And it has never failed me picking on the slow thickly armored guy, while I have been unpleasently surprised when picking on the dude wearing sandcloth and leather.

Many people simply go on looks with no thought to code or being realistic to be honest. I don't know how many times my PCs have commented to others about how heavy things must be and be answered with "Yup, I can barely move...but I like the way it looks."

I like playing all styles of combat PCs, from the tanks to the agile ninja styles to the more middle of the road profesionals that carefully pick and choose everything for the perfect balance. To the poor out for the money merc bruiser who does not care long as it is cheap, to raiders who only wear trophy items.

And have been highly successful with all of them.

[askaran]

it's always been relative to my characters stats what armor they wear. For example even if im playing a southerner if he's mul strong with exceptional or better endurance therefore in my reasoning has a high pain tolerance and can weather the elements more effectively than less hardy folk. He'll be decked out in heavy armor. If he's a scrawny little spitfuck even if he's a northron he'll be decked out in leathers and sandcloth.  Fighters use equipment that works for them.  IRL and in the game world. They play to their strengths and try to minimize their weaknesses.

[askaran]

But.. I would agree that there is a large amount of players who have their characters in equipment that doesn't make sense. For the aesthetic effect.

[Spoon]

I used 'value' on a certain piece of heavy armour the other day. It weighed half as much as my PC. Generally the really super-heavy types can only be worn by the very strongest.

I can see how this must be frustrating. It can be very easy to think strength and armour are overpowered when you're sparring with a strong person wearing heavy armor. I'm assuming the sparring part (where most combat observations take place), but just remember how much strength and armour lend themselves to sparring performance. Strong PCs do a lot more damage with sparring weapons, and sparring weapons don't do so well against armour.

Now there's something I'm not as sure about in terms of detrimental effects because I have limited experience since it was introduced, am I right in thinking you can get Krath's touch very easily by wearing heavy armour when it's hot? I just remember putting a full helm on once and getting sick very quickly.

[Barzalene]

However, I do agree that a lot of people seem to disregard the regional docs when it comes to armor and weapon style choices. It can take a lot to shift from the gamer mind-set to the role-play mind-set.

Part of this is a code issue. One style requires a skill that branches from another style's skill. That's a problem. (I could be completely mistaken.)

[hyzhenhok]

However, I do agree that a lot of people seem to disregard the regional docs when it comes to armor and weapon style choices. It can take a lot to shift from the gamer mind-set to the role-play mind-set.

Part of this is a code issue. One style requires a skill that branches from another style's skill. That's a problem. (I could be completely mistaken.)

I believe Morgenes has said that due to a quirk in the code it's impossible to have a skill branch from more than one other skills, but if you have managed to get two-handed to a level where you think dual-wield would branch a skill or vice versa, you can send in a request.

This was said back when two-handed was changed codedly to be a viable alternative.

[Morgenes]

That is correct.

[Barzalene]

Cool, but... I am not certain I understand. Also, one style will leave you far more vulnerable until such time as you might branch. And if you die before getting to the piint where you can write in and get the skill branched this is a less attractive feature than using the wrong style and bettering your shot at surviving.(Unless I misunderstand)

In the end, this isn't a huge deal. It doesn't break the game. But it accounts for the schism between documentation and practice.

[hyzhenhok]

Cool, but... I am not certain I understand. Also, one style will leave you far more vulnerable until such time as you might branch. And if you die before getting to the piint where you can write in and get the skill branched this is a less attractive feature than using the wrong style and bettering your shot at surviving.(Unless I misunderstand)

In the end, this isn't a huge deal. It doesn't break the game. But it accounts for the schism between documentation and practice.

I'm not sure what you mean. Since we're talking about a skill that branches, neither style gets any benefit from it until it appears on your skill list.

[Barzalene]

I can't explain without an inappropriate amount of IC info.

[Tenua]

I used 'value' on a certain piece of heavy armour the other day.

Remember that value itself is a skill. Even valuing something to get the average weight is going to be off with a low value skill.

[Nyr]

Cool, but... I am not certain I understand. Also, one style will leave you far more vulnerable until such time as you might branch.

I don't see how that is the case.  Neither helpfile indicates that is the case.

using the wrong style and bettering your shot at surviving.

There is no wrong style.

[Barzalene]

Well, since having this conversation in code isn't giving me any information to work with and I can't clarify without breaking rules there's no point continuing.

[Barzalene]

Except for my position is unassailable and this thread is done.

[musashi]

Request Tool.

[Barzalene]

It won't work on my phone, unfortunately.

[Nyr]

There are advantages and disadvantages to using different weapon styles.  Those are spelled out in the helpfiles.  Two-handed vs dual wield vs one weapon and shield.  You can decide for yourself what works better for your character and for your character's place of origin.

The same goes for armor and everything else.

Armor

Heavily Armored                                                                        Moderately Armored                                                                                                Lightly Armored/not armored
X--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------X
Heavily Encumbered                                                                  Encumbered, but not badly                                                                                       Little to no encumbrance

Armor = protection from damage, but encumbrance may mean you get hit more often, combat abilities will flag, and stamina will drop quickly.  This is the armor tradeoff.

Fighting Types

You can either two-hand, dual wield, or weapon + shield.

Pros and cons:
Two handed -- higher frequency of attack with a two handed weapon based on 2h skill, higher damage from strength, higher damage with higher skill, easier to disarm someone if you have a 2h weapon and are disarming (conversely, harder to disarm someone that has a 2h weapon, harder to defend yourself without a shield, and even if you attack more often it may not be as much as someone with two or more weapons)

Dual wield -- not as much GDB code coverage here, but one can observe that there are two weapons (more attacks) with less strength being applied to each (less damage than 2h, all things equal), easier to parry with two weapons, easier to be hit because you have no shield

Weapon + shield -- one weapon (less attacks), one shield (less chance of being hit or damaged, better chance of blocking attacks), overall easier to defend

Take your pick.  Each one has trade offs, and not all weapons work great in every style.  There is no wrong style.