Playing a racist

[Talia]

You know, we have this conversation pretty frequently. Sometimes, yes, pissing people off via overt racism (or whatever other means) can get your character laughed at, hurt, or killed. Sometimes it doesn't, especially when you have the right friends, position, power, or money. Also, just because other characters are not overtly calling elves/dwarves/whathaveyou names does not mean there is no racism happening. Casual, systemic racism is as valid as overt KKK-style racism; and it's much more important to the whole operation of the system in the hierarchical power structures of the cities. My suggestion is that each player should decide for him/herself what type of character to play, and how much risk to take, and then not complain about the play of other players, nor complain about what happens to their character if they're not smart about their own play.

Also, technically, hatred north vs. south and vice versa is not racism. That's nationalism/culturalism.

Personally, I'd love to see characters of all stripes hating on characters from other groups much more just because they are not in the "in" group. (Bynners vs. militia, Salarr vs. Kadius, etc.) Even better, I'd love to see this in players' thinks and feels, not just in snide comments or invitations to brawl.

[Riev]

Echo'ing what Talia said, about Group vs Group ribbing.

However, just there can be good natured ribbing. Like, the Byn making fun of the Legionnaires for being city bound, and poor bastards, or the Arm of the Dragon saying the Byn are a bunch of fuck ups who are only good for throwing themselves at spider nests.



However, two major points I agree with. The playerbase is small, and chances are that necker, or that breed, knows someone who knows someone. You need a backing if you're going to be an asshole. And also, if you're going to walk up to a Sun Runner, and tell them they're filthy neckers that can't do a damn thing right and have no place in the Known... well... you're pissing off a family, not just one necker. You get whats coming.

[X-D]

Sadly, on the groups thing.

Currently and past few years by both PC and NPC leaders, this has been...let us say, discouraged.

Though it has not always been so. And when it was not, I found it to be much more fun. Sadly, many things have been put into place that limit such thing, sometimes even in the docs. From the different clans that have holdings north and south basically splitting into north and south clans to clan "alliances".

All of which serve to lower the amount of PC on PC or clan on clan or culture on culture friction...sadly.

[Lizzie]

Racism doesn't mean active participation in violence against someone you hate.

Racism is the overall topic. Active participation in violence is one out of many possible expressions.

A human merchant might overcharge an elf on a purchase, or discover that the item the elf wants, is also wanted by another human, who gets first dibs.

An elf raiding a dwarf might require the stump's snake-coiled snowstorm-embossed obsidian-bladed bone bastard sword of doom, while only demanding two arrows and a shard of flint from an elven victim. And the same elf might require THREE arrows, a shard of obsidian, and two kalan fruits, if his elven victim is from the city.

A dwarf might make fun of an elf, in mirrikum, to his dwarvish buddy at the bar. And smile sweetly with a hearty how do ya do when he shifts to allundean.

Lots and lots of ways to express racism in Armageddon. Violence and direct insults are only a small piece of it.

[Intrepid]

At the risk of pedantism, it sounds like there is a claim of racism versus discrimination.  Racism is an attitude that can be held toward someone without necessarily being displayed, whereas discrimination involves acting out toward racism, classism, nationalism/culturalism, etc.

All of my pcs are racist.  If they're crude, they'll probably discriminate in more overt ways.  If they're social, their racism might be more obvious, but more wordy.  It all depends on the pc, but there's plenty to hate in Zalanthas.

And for those of you who don't think that humans have a stereotype, consider this viewpoint as a possible example among many:

Humans are obsessive, hiveminded assholes who made two monolithic cities, probably even more of them that got blasted to pieces or buried under salt.  They seek to own everything; land, people, the fucking sky even.  Of all the races, humans own the most slaves, keep the most excess, gobble up the most resources.  Even their tribals can't keep an equilibrium with their surroundings.  Whereas the elves of the Pah and the North can keep from obliterating the regions they live in, the cities are pustulent sores, the only fans of the Muark are themselves and the Benjari blasted themselves into oblivion  And what the hell is with all these half-humans?  Muls, half-elves, half-giants?  Can't these drov-damned humans keep their fucking clothes on???

Yes, I realize that, as a player, this is an unfair judgement call on the entire human race--however!  It uses the available, most commonly known "facts" about humans on Zalanthas and renders judgement.  That's racism.  If you do something toward humans, that's discrimination.

And Talia is most correct: Groups should at least have rivalries!  Don't be afraid of Us vs Them.  If you're a magicker, you're better than most of the unskilled labor of the Known World.  Your group of elves is more worthy than any other, city or desert.  Your dwarven line accomplished more in its lineage than any lazy sorceror-king-sucking human or lazyass elven thief.  And as humans...heh.  You own everything.  Your king, your templars, your nobles, your merchant masters--all human, baby.

Armageddon finds its power in groups and rp is slanted in undeniably in that direction.  Factionalization is great and can pepper roleplay to nicely detailed levels if you allow it to.

[Dakota]

+1 for more overt rivalries between factions, north and south, etc.

hopefully now that dasari is open, they'll plant a field and grow some balls for PCs who should shake things up.

[Cutthroat]

Yeah... there's plenty of factional discrimination/rivavlries in-game already. Factional rivalries are more obvious: north vs. south, rivalries between merchant and noble houses, tries and cities, tribes and other tribes, etc. You may not be seeing those things happen, but they should be happening - and if you are not participating in them with any of your characters, you're missing a huge part of conflict in Armageddon.

The issue at hand is racism, and racial discrimination, and it tends to be an issue often discussed here. I think it's because people don't really know how racism works, and they expect one kind of racial discrimination when in fact there are a lot of kinds.

Racism starts with a stereotype, and consequently leads to discrimination based upon that stereotype. You don't see a lot of KKK-style overt racism in Armageddon is because such activities were usually done to incite widespread violence between two groups. So you see the more subtle racism that is more common IRL because, despicable though it is, it is "safer". It is also "safer" in Zalanthas, and we all know a Zalanthan that sticks his neck out (short neck or long neck) for no reason quickly dies.

[Spoon]

My PCs in recent years dish out and take plenty of racism. I can only guess the OP is unfortunate and has missed out.

[NOFUN]

I've always thought that the average mundane nobody would keep there opinions to themselves owing to elves making up much of the population with many having tribes backing them, humans owning everything and dwarves being tough.

Half-elves don't really have anything that would make a person think twice, unless they're long lived bad ass PC's.

[RogueGunslinger]

My PCs in recent years dish out and take plenty of racism. I can only guess the OP is unfortunate and has missed out.

[Jeshin]

Racism starts when you stop sexing them! Unless you're giving them an ingame disease and you feel bad at least a little bit afterwords.

[Spoon]

I've always thought that the average mundane nobody would keep there opinions to themselves owing to elves making up much of the population with many having tribes backing them, humans owning everything and dwarves being tough.

Half-elves don't really have anything that would make a person think twice, unless they're long lived bad ass PC's.

Just a thought, as there's a few posts in a similar vein to this one above, being a racist doesn't mean you have to walk up to the race in question and say "I fucking hate you.". It could do, but certainly doesn't have to.

[hyzhenhok]

Bah. Openly insulting elves and breeds who have posses to back them up is where all the fun is.

Dying is fun!

[Intrepid]

My PCs in recent years dish out and take plenty of racism. I can only guess the OP is unfortunate and has missed out.

+1

In fact, there has been only one time anyone tried to chide one of my pcs for being racist.  I saw a female dwarven stripper years ago up in the Tembo during one of those rare flights of fancy where I made a northerner.  Seeing what was, both ic and ooc, a ridiculous sight prompted my pc to laugh.  The proprietor at the time got pissy with me, but I shrugged it off.  Fortunately, I was not alone in thinking the situation was hilarious and absurd looking.

[Cind]

Bah. Openly insulting elves and breeds who have posses to back them up is where all the fun is.

Dying is fun!

I want to know when you play.

[Clavis]

I enjoy having all you racist people sleep with my char's just to show you how weak and pathetic your race truelly is!

[AmandaGreathouse]

I enjoy having all you racist people sleep with my char's just to show you how weak and pathetic your race truelly is!

Says the one who'd actually lower themselves to sleep with that sort of life-form.

Sure I could sleep with a hot guy/girl of my own race. But I'd rather screw dirt in a passive-aggressive ploy to show them they're inferior.

Do wha'?

[Clavis]

I enjoy having all you racist people sleep with my char's just to show you how weak and pathetic your race truelly is!

Says the one who'd actually lower themselves to sleep with that sort of life-form.

Sure I could sleep with a hot guy/girl of my own race. But I'd rather screw dirt in a passive-aggressive ploy to show them they're inferior.

Do wha'?

I never said my char's where racists  their always the sweet lovable types that get the haters to sleep with them in that passive-aggressive ploy cause their to weak to be an active racists! Ugg my char's suck!

[Bilanthri]

Certainly, as players, we represent a unique sub-set of world culture. And we often display this by being outside the norm, as is evidenced by the PC wealth issue. On the issue of bigotry, it's understandable that a lot of us find it difficult to adequately portray what is an odious trait in the real world. This is one reason why I appreciate the inherent social and cultural factors that keep that aspect of our mutually experienced world alive.

In the Rinth, the shape of your PC's ears can mean life or death, depending on what alley you happen to stroll down. If you're looking for work and your neck is long, then good luck with Salarr or Kadius, and I advise not even approaching the noble houses. Certainly, the majority of game-supported racism is presented by human culture, but humans are, by far, the most racist of the lot. Elves come close, but their brand of racism is more akin to elitism mixed with xenophobia.

A human merchant who overcharges those of elven blood is racist, even if the elves and breeds don't realize their getting fleeced. An elf who, when walking into a tavern, is greeted by quickly closed purses and thinks to him/her self, "Fool roundears, if I wanted their coin, I would take it.", is meeting racism with racism (and may get some coin later). You don't have to be a violent, loud-mouthed a%&h@le to be a bigot, you just have to believe another person is less than you, and let your actions speak for you.

In short, pick a team and back them with all you've got. But play to your strengths.

[Fathi]

Ways To Discriminate Without Being Violent:

1. Pay less attention to people who aren't your race.
"What do you mean 'do I know which dwarf it was.' They all look the same!"

2. Charge people of a different race more for your goods/services.
NPCs in at least one location already do this!

2a. Make those of a different race jump through extra hoops to get your goods/services.
"Sorry, Halfbreed Ranger, I can't get those arrows to you 'til I have enough bits of stone to make them. Would you be a dear and dig them for me?"

3. Buy a round for everyone at the bar except those of other races.

4. If you don't feel like acting hateful, acting suspicious works too.
hemote glances sideways at ~elf, keeping an eye on !elf

5. If you see people of your race being too nice to people of another race, tease them.
"Malik is too high and mighty to sit with us humans. Look at him, hanging out with that busty breed over there."

6. Like nobles and commoners, just remember: you're better than them. Sometimes if you put a ton of effort into trying to prove you're better--which is something everyone should already know--you're the one who ends up looking like a tool.

[chrisdcoulombe]

I have played strong racist pc's . I had one that was in a position of authority and would shake down anyone that was not of his race.  Make him give them their packs, clothes weapons, tools, sids ect.  It was kind of hard for me to do though and I really had to think about what and how to do it.  One of the encounters was epic in front of lots of people.  Most were pretty lame though. 

[hyzhenhok]

Two more 'sids:

Just because everyone is supposed to be racist doesn't mean racism is "protected." There's nothing special about racism that means other players can't respond negatively to it. In fact, it's pretty much by definition that targets of racism should respond negatively.

If you are doing racism the loud, obnoxious and openly insulting way (and you should! It's fun), and something bad happens to you: that bad thing is happening to you because you were loud, obnoxious and openly insulting. Not because you were racist. Some settings it's okay to be loud and obnoxious: those are the locations where it's safest to be the openly hostile racist schtick. And do not be loud and obnoxious against someone while on their turf. That half-elf Kuraci Fist soldier knows he's dirt, but that doesn't mean you're not playing with fire if you insult him to his face while you're in Luir's.

Still, kudos to everyone who does the open, obnoxious racism even when it's clear that it will have negative, complex consequences in the future. Restrained racism and begrudging tolerance is the norm: it's refreshing to see outright rejection from time to time.

[HTX]

Just because everyone is supposed to be racist doesn't mean racism is "protected." There's nothing special about racism that means other players can't respond negatively to it. In fact, it's pretty much by definition that targets of racism should respond negatively.

[...]

Of course. Although it does get a little odd when a half-elf kills someone over been called a shitblood (do they kill the other three VNPCs who probably call them a shitblood daily, as well?) but I'd definitely expect -some- kind of reaction, even if it's just pent up rage or the like.

[Qzzrbl]

Just because everyone is supposed to be racist doesn't mean racism is "protected." There's nothing special about racism that means other players can't respond negatively to it. In fact, it's pretty much by definition that targets of racism should respond negatively.

[...]

Of course. Although it does get a little odd when a half-elf kills someone over been called a shitblood (do they kill the other three VNPCs who probably call them a shitblood daily, as well?) but I'd definitely expect -some- kind of reaction, even if it's just pent up rage or the like.

What's worse is when the half-elf's human buddy does the killing.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'm pretty much totally okay with that. As long as he's actually friends with the half-elf, and not just some random bystander.