Homosexuality

[Lizzie]

Except, this is about homosexuality in the game, not discrimination outside of the game.

On topic: I think that doc about how homosexuality is normal, is kind of off. In the game, men can't get pregnant, and women can't get men pregnant. In the game, if people want to have babies, they need at least one male, and at least one female, both of whom need to be fertile. That is -why- muls have such a hard time getting along with their neighbors; because they are a race of created beings who were designed to be incapable of reproducing. If homosexuality was truly "normal," then muls would not care that they weren't capable of reproducing.

I think homosexuality in game isn't "normal," but it is not something the majority of Zalanthans would care about one way or another. The majority of Zalanthans likely take sexuality in general, for granted. It just isn't a big deal to them who likes girls and who likes boys. I also think that the majority of Zalanthans are either heterosexual or bisexual, based upon the fact that if the majority weren't, then rape for the express purpose of propagating the species would be more common.

I guess I'm saying that from a logistical point of view, it doesn't really make sense for homosexuality to be "normal" in Zalanthas. "Unimpressive," sure. But "normal," I just don't buy it. Even if the docs say so.

[Reiloth]

Except, this is about homosexuality in the game, not discrimination outside of the game.

On topic: I think that doc about how homosexuality is normal, is kind of off. In the game, men can't get pregnant, and women can't get men pregnant. In the game, if people want to have babies, they need at least one male, and at least one female, both of whom need to be fertile. That is -why- muls have such a hard time getting along with their neighbors; because they are a race of created beings who were designed to be incapable of reproducing. If homosexuality was truly "normal," then muls would not care that they weren't capable of reproducing.

I think homosexuality in game isn't "normal," but it is not something the majority of Zalanthans would care about one way or another. The majority of Zalanthans likely take sexuality in general, for granted. It just isn't a big deal to them who likes girls and who likes boys. I also think that the majority of Zalanthans are either heterosexual or bisexual, based upon the fact that if the majority weren't, then rape for the express purpose of propagating the species would be more common.

I guess I'm saying that from a logistical point of view, it doesn't really make sense for homosexuality to be "normal" in Zalanthas. "Unimpressive," sure. But "normal," I just don't buy it. Even if the docs say so.

Yeah, I agree. I think without a religion to enforce homosexuality as being a sin...It's mostly just 'your' business. If you are a dude that likes dudes, it's your business, not really anyone else's. If you're a woman with a 'mate' that is another woman, well, you aren't going to have any kids, but I guess that's your call. Etc.

[Saellyn]

I don't buy it, Reiloth or Lizzie, because the docs say it's totally normal. The REASON Muls have such a hard time is because on a general scale they are born into slavery, period. They are raised as slaves, they are taught that they are slaves, and they learn at terrible times "Oh by the way you won't ever be a mommy or a daddy".

However, I think the biggest factor that sets Muls apart is that no matter what, they're always "tools". They're raised to be weapons, to be objects, and they're never given "true" affection. THAT is why they grow up to be so crappy at life.

[jstorrie]

Yeah, there are a whole number of reasons muls are fucked up. It's not just the infertility thing, and so I don't think that's a valid reason to start questioning the documentation that the city-cultures don't care one way or another about sexuality.

[Barzalene]

If a couple in game can't have kids because they are the same sex they can still have kids. Just not with each other.

[Sokotra]

With all due respect, Sokotra, the consent rules are what they are for a reason. If it was intended for people to need to get consent for things like word choices ahead of time, that would be listed among them.

There are many games where you are not allowed to do anything higher than PG rated. I quit one I really enjoyed because of that.

I wasn't really saying that it had to be strictly PG rated, although some might prefer that, and it would be nice if folks used their imagination and used Zalanthan curse words that would be much easier on those players.  I was just saying there are many cases where that stuff can be toned down a bit, because it seems to be crossing the line on the consent rules a little - although the consent rules don't seem to be really clear on profanity and stuff, as far as I know.  You are describing with words by using emotes just the same as you are describing with words with the "say" command.  Using a bunch of profanity and saying what you are going to do to someone seems to be getting pretty close to doing the same with the "emote" command.  PG-13 would probably be a happy middle ground, rather than rated R... which seems to be the case much of the time.

I haven't had much trouble with that stuff myself, and I've tolerated what I have seen with no complaints or anything... I'm just thinking of everyone else as well - and those that don't frequent the GDB. 

Sorry for the derail, just kinda had a question about that... I'm done. 

[valeria]

Which sex/sexes/gender/genders you are attracted to, and whether you want to have kids or are willing to mate for the purposes of procreation, these are not the same thing.

All it takes is one woman in a lesbian pair offering to have kids for them, or one man in a gay pair offering to pay someone cold hard obsidian to have kids for them, and BAM.  Now you have a gay couple with kids.

[Cindy42]

I've never seen homosexuality as not normal. And since its Arm, I sort of expected for that to go over more, too, since women are equals and skin color doesn't matter IG, so I always thought LGBT folks got it a bit better IG too.

Oh, and, since I'm not planning to make a transvestite character anymore, staff told me you have to send one of those in as a special app, because of their rarity.

[Zoltan]

With all due respect, Sokotra, the consent rules are what they are for a reason. If it was intended for people to need to get consent for things like word choices ahead of time, that would be listed among them.

There are many games where you are not allowed to do anything higher than PG rated. I quit one I really enjoyed because of that.

I wasn't really saying that it had to be strictly PG rated, although some might prefer that, and it would be nice if folks used their imagination and used Zalanthan curse words that would be much easier on those players.  I was just saying there are many cases where that stuff can be toned down a bit, because it seems to be crossing the line on the consent rules a little - although the consent rules don't seem to be really clear on profanity and stuff, as far as I know.  You are describing with words by using emotes just the same as you are describing with words with the "say" command.  Using a bunch of profanity and saying what you are going to do to someone seems to be getting pretty close to doing the same with the "emote" command.  PG-13 would probably be a happy middle ground, rather than rated R... which seems to be the case much of the time.

I haven't had much trouble with that stuff myself, and I've tolerated what I have seen with no complaints or anything... I'm just thinking of everyone else as well - and those that don't frequent the GDB. 

Sorry for the derail, just kinda had a question about that... I'm done. 

I like Zalanthan-specific curse words... but dude, I'm still gonna drop a ton of F-bombs if the character warrants it. I suppose I can sort of sympathize about the graphic conversations thing (ie, it's not 'happening' but you get all the... colorful descriptions through the say command regardless), but still. Meh, if a player has a problem, they should send in a complaint. Or maybe people should fire off a consent OOC before getting ultra-graphic with their shit-talkin'? I probably wouldn't most of the time, but I suppose I'll be quicker on the consent-askin' if things get graphically sexual/rape-tastic in conversation. *shrug* Either way, I think the rules pretty much have it covered.

[Delirium]

With all due respect... this is Armageddon, not Care Bear MUD.

[Saellyn]

If I want to call you a slough of curse words in game, you're not gonna stop me. On the GDB, understand I won't call you a slough of curse words!

[Sokotra]

With all due respect... this is Armageddon, not Care Bear MUD.

I never mentioned a G rating, heh.  And again... I wasn't really asking for a PG rating either.  I only figured people would want to keep it at PG-13 at least, to keep from chasing players away.  You could always do the consent and continue with R or X if you so choose.  But whatever...

[BleakOne]

I can't think of any time but one really funny time where the talking got too graphic, in my experience. I agree though, that if you wouldn't emote it out without consent, don't say it without consent.

As for curse words, as long as they're not actually graphically describing something which should require consent, I'm all for them.

[musashi]

I'm with BleakOne. If someone wants to say fuck shit ass balls every other minute like their PC has Tourette syndrome from a Hollywood movie ... have at it boss. Trust me, kids younger than 18 know all of those words already  

But, if the things that you are about to "say" are things that you would need consent to emote ... then ask for consent. We have the consent rules regarding explicit sexual depiction for a reason.

[Lizzie]

I don't buy it, Reiloth or Lizzie, because the docs say it's totally normal. The REASON Muls have such a hard time is because on a general scale they are born into slavery, period. They are raised as slaves, they are taught that they are slaves, and they learn at terrible times "Oh by the way you won't ever be a mommy or a daddy".

However, I think the biggest factor that sets Muls apart is that no matter what, they're always "tools". They're raised to be weapons, to be objects, and they're never given "true" affection. THAT is why they grow up to be so crappy at life.

Actually, the docs don't say it's totally normal. A player guide that was approved by staff says that homosexuality is *common* - which does not equate with normal. The docs also say in the paragraph, a few attitudes that people in real life might have, but don't have in Zalanthas - and then in the very next sentence, it says that attitudes toward sexuality are broad. But, obviously, attitudes toward sexuality in Zalanthas are VERY narrow, if people aren't allowed to RP their characters having certain attitudes that are common in real life.

So really, that document is misleading, and inaccurate. It's also outdated, and gives away something that is supposedly IC, doesn't even mention the fact that tribal humans exist, let alone that players can choose to play one...it leads a new player into believing that the only people who exist, are city people, and tribal elves.

There are a lot of inconsistencies with the official docs, and with the player submitted docs. In this case, the notion that "no one gives a flying fuck about sexual prefence in Zalanthas" should be the emphasis - not that you should expect your character to get hit on primarily by someone of the same gender (which is what the document implies, by singling out homosexuality as the "common" sexual preference).

[musashi]

I don't think "normal" is a very useful word to be putting into the discussion; it's like the word "pretty", or "good" ... you know ... entirely subjective.

[X-D]

I think the players guide should be edited myself.

Changed to read that it is a "non-issue" Rather then stated as "normal".

Which BTW, is how staff stated it for years anyway.

Simply that NOBODY CARES who you fuck or what, If you are in love with a tregil and doing it daily, Nobody cares, That special vase...nobody cares..etc, etc.

[Cutthroat]

Simply that NOBODY CARES who you fuck or what, If you are in love with a tregil and doing it daily, Nobody cares, That special vase...nobody cares..etc, etc.

Though I'm sure you know this, just for the record, that's not entirely true. There are still IC problems with interracial sex, of course, and most inter-caste sex in Tuluk.

I have no idea if there is a norm for bestiality, but I would say different PCs may have different opinions about it.

Edit to add: I know what this thread is about, but that's a broad statement you made and I just want to ensure it doesn't get misinterpreted.

[musashi]

Ahhh the infamous quirri sandwich 

[flurry]

Which is the doc that characterizes homosexuality as "normal" among Zalanthans? I know the quickstart calls it "common," but that's not quite the same thing. Am I missing something, or are people getting caught up in a word that's not actually used?

edit: Okay now I see Lizzie already pointed this out. I still don't understand the need for all the hair-splitting about the wording of that one paragraph in the quickstart.

[X-D]

Nah, I don't think anybody cares who you are fucking...now, if that results in offspring they might care but that has nothing to do with caring about the act that caused it.


Keep in mind, any of these things do not include nobles, templars or other like sponsereed roles, as they are far from the "common" people of the world.

[Kalai]

If I'm a human Tuluki and I know a human Tuluki who's screwing with an elven gemmer, I'm going to try and stay the heck away from them and get them disappeared, killed and/or exiled, preferably indirectly or at least with a ranged weapon.

No matter if they're living off mul mix, both sterile, and both the same gender.

[X-D]

That statement would be the same if you replaced screwing with Talking to.

[Kalai]

True.

[Lizzie]

It also has nothing to do with the topic, which is the In-Game perspective on homosexuality in Zalanthas. Which is - not anything that would be important enough that anyone would care about it. The documentation singles it out, and thereby makes it noteworthy by creating a device in which characters will have at least one fuck to give about it - the fuck being "iit's common."

It is not *publically* common, which means, people are not having sex on the bar of the Sanctuary, on a basis regular enough to draw attention of any kind, whether negative or positive. It means, homosexuality is not something anyone talks about in game, because it isn't anything anyone cares about in game. It's like talking about a leaf that fell outside the wall one day, that was just an ordinary leaf, doing what leaves ordinarily do. Really; no one cares. There are 450 fucks in the world. None of them are given as a result of homosexuality.

This post inspired by Yam.