Stamina and You.

[jhunter]

Over the past several years we've had some code changes that all amount to more and more stamina being used. I kinda feel like now days if I'm playing an active character I spend more time sitting around waiting for stamina to recover than actually doing stuff. Am I the only one that feels like this? I think that the amount of stamina pcs get should be increased slightly or the stamina regen rate increased slightly to balance it back out a bit. Thoughts on the subject? Ideas?

[Spoon]

I think you could get away with going as far as doubling stamina regen for playability reasons. The only negative effect would possibly be more people being able to travel by foot as opposed to riding being the pretty much be all and end all of travel. Is that a negative effect? You would still need to stop and rest, people walking would still be just as vulnerable as before. You might actually see PCs other than elves walking around.

As for minor changes, it's been said before many a time, but stamina should regen whilst standing. Especially since HPs regen like that, why shouldn't stamina?

[jhunter]

Yeah maybe add some low standing regen and increase the resting and sleeping regen. Right now, it seems like my pc might work hard for about 15 min to 30 min (game time) and have to rest for two hours (game time) to recover from it. Pretty unrealistic.

[Cutthroat]

The only thing I would change is making stamina regenerate slowly while standing, to be more like HP and stun. I think stamina regeneration is otherwise fine, and recovers reasonably quickly while sitting or resting with normal endurance, so long as you're doing so in a restful place.

[Drayab]

I asked for standing stamina regen in RTW a while back.

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,39375.0.html

I still want it.

[Feco]

I think a /slow/ standing stam regen sounds wonderful.

[HavokBlue]

While there are reasons this could be bad (making travel more trivial), I kind of agree with this. A standing regen at least, would be pretty cool.

[Drayab]

In the other thread, the argument against is that it would make stealth even more OP.

[Qzzrbl]

Then don't offer standing stam regen while hidden?

[jhunter]

There we go. In fact, as a rule standing regen should only happen if you're not actively doing something else other than maybe using watch.

[Is Friday]

Yeah maybe add some low standing regen and increase the resting and sleeping regen. Right now, it seems like my pc might work hard for about 15 min to 30 min (game time) and have to rest for two hours (game time) to recover from it. Pretty unrealistic.

As an athletic individual I'd like to address this, (I'm also studying to become a Personal Trainer/Physical Therapist on the side, but I'm not certed yet so it's moot.)

If you take exercises such as Crossfit's "go-until-you-gas" regimens, you can literally deplete your entire day's energy in 20 minutes or less. (Even athletic individuals.) That is not to say that you wouldn't be able to walk around, but obviously, you're going to be walking around at a great handicap if you were using your legs/back. If you're putting out max effort on any physical event, you cannot maintain that level of power/speed/endurance. Take for instance sprints: You're gassing yourself at a much shorter distance than you would if you were to jog for a longer distance.

Recovery has a lot of factors into it, to include: weather conditions, hydration, food, mental state, amount of sleep, physical conditioning.

The system we have now is not perfect by any means--but if you're going to want a solution to recovering in a more realistic manner, you have an entirely separate column of variables you're going to have to plug in.

Anecdotes:
Mental conditioning can be considered just as important as physical. Your body is going to quit long before your mind will if you have a high level of mental conditioning, and because of this you can push your body well past its "breakdown". Also note that vice versa can occur--in which the individual quits long before the body reaches its threshold for pain. I have experienced this personally in several situations. I've been in places where I had to keep going for hours after my muscles had gone numb and all I could feel was the tendons and joints in my body tearing apart with each step.

Please bear in mind that usually I have had food and water sources available to me and thus was able to keep pushing. I think some players are unaware of how much a difference ample food and water will assist in your physical endeavors. When you're talking about Amos the miner who wants to walk a bit further in the desert--you have to realize he has limited resources like food, water, and cannot afford to rest his body properly if he's constantly needing to bring in those sid chunks.

The same goes for hunters that become injured--I'd imagine that unless you were a huge asset to your employer, you getting injured only means that you're shit out of luck. Obviously, that isn't the case for playability reasons. But it something to ponder on, would-be bad asses.

edit: Along the lines of mental conditioning, I was really hoping to work my way up to a role where I could showcase a warrior culture that involves mental/physical conditioning as a part its regular training. Sparring is necessary for coded gains--but c'mon, it's boring as shit. I can come up with some awesome conditioning drills.

p.s. Read "Gates of Fire" for a healthy representation of a brutal warrior culture such as the Lyksaens have.

[wizturbo]

More stamina would solve a lot of the problems.  Give everyone 25 more stamina to factor in all the new stamina eating skills and I think that'd improve things significantly with basically no code time required.

[jhunter]

Yeah maybe add some low standing regen and increase the resting and sleeping regen. Right now, it seems like my pc might work hard for about 15 min to 30 min (game time) and have to rest for two hours (game time) to recover from it. Pretty unrealistic.

As an athletic individual I'd like to address this, (I'm also studying to become a Personal Trainer/Physical Therapist on the side, but I'm not certed yet so it's moot.)

If you take exercises such as Crossfit's "go-until-you-gas" regimens, you can literally deplete your entire day's energy in 20 minutes or less. (Even athletic individuals.) That is not to say that you wouldn't be able to walk around, but obviously, you're going to be walking around at a great handicap if you were using your legs/back. If you're putting out max effort on any physical event, you cannot maintain that level of power/speed/endurance. Take for instance sprints: You're gassing yourself at a much shorter distance than you would if you were to jog for a longer distance.

Recovery has a lot of factors into it, to include: weather conditions, hydration, food, mental state, amount of sleep, physical conditioning.

The system we have now is not perfect by any means--but if you're going to want a solution to recovering in a more realistic manner, you have an entirely separate column of variables you're going to have to plug in.

Anecdotes:
Mental conditioning can be considered just as important as physical. Your body is going to quit long before your mind will if you have a high level of mental conditioning, and because of this you can push your body well past its "breakdown". Also note that vice versa can occur--in which the individual quits long before the body reaches its threshold for pain. I have experienced this personally in several situations. I've been in places where I had to keep going for hours after my muscles had gone numb and all I could feel was the tendons and joints in my body tearing apart with each step.

Please bear in mind that usually I have had food and water sources available to me and thus was able to keep pushing. I think some players are unaware of how much a difference ample food and water will assist in your physical endeavors. When you're talking about Amos the miner who wants to walk a bit further in the desert--you have to realize he has limited resources like food, water, and cannot afford to rest his body properly if he's constantly needing to bring in those sid chunks.

The same goes for hunters that become injured--I'd imagine that unless you were a huge asset to your employer, you getting injured only means that you're shit out of luck. Obviously, that isn't the case for playability reasons. But it something to ponder on, would-be bad asses.

edit: Along the lines of mental conditioning, I was really hoping to work my way up to a role where I could showcase a warrior culture that involves mental/physical conditioning as a part its regular training. Sparring is necessary for coded gains--but c'mon, it's boring as shit. I can come up with some awesome conditioning drills.

p.s. Read "Gates of Fire" for a healthy representation of a brutal warrior culture such as the Lyksaens have.

All I'm saying is I can chop wood for about 15-20 minutes straight and it doesn't take me two hours to be ready to go again.

[a strange shadow]

On the flip side, it would probably take much longer in RL to chop through a big fat baobab with a stone axe.

[Yam]

If anything, the stamina/fatigue in this game is too forgiving in most situations.

[Marc]

All I'm saying is I can chop wood for about 15-20 minutes straight and it doesn't take me two hours to be ready to go again.

Go chop wood in Death Valley or the Sahara on a sunny day and see how long you make it.  There is a reason why cultures in northern, cooler climates developed their work habits compared to equatorial peoples.  It's easier to put in a full day of work in 70-80 degree heat than it is in 100-110.  Don't compare what you can do IRL to what a Zalanthan can do.  Slippery slope.

Get some shelter.  Make sure you're not thirsty or hungry.  It's not perfect but it's not horrible either.  A tent gives you an indoor room to regen in.  It shouldn't be real restful in a tent with howling winds all around, sand leaking in through the low-tech materials, but it is perfect.  Should that be made more realistic?  Tents =/ indoor rooms.  Instead add shade?  That would make outdoor life rough. derail........

As for regening while standing.  Sure, it can be explained.  IMHO easier than explaining NOT regening while standing.  However how many circumstances can you list where sitting to regenerate movement would not be acceptable.  Beyond protocol (Guards don't sit!).  I'd be curious to compare that list to the potential issues with adding standing regen (stealth, too easy travel etc).

I.E.  Do the benefits out weight the drawbacks?

As for more stamina.  Sure?  I don't see it breaking anything, though it's pretty easy to get in the high 100's with most races.  Many can go higher than that with the proper equipment.  If you think +25 stamina would fix this problem, you can easily gain that through gear.  Think lightweight, desert-travel gear and start shopping around.

[jhunter]

I've done it in 100 degree heat, btw. I still didn't have to take a two hour break before going again. I've spent 12 hour days at the business end of a shovel in over 100 degree heat in the desert and still only took a 15 min break about every two hours with a 30 minute lunch in the middle of the day. Then went out and partied that night.

[Yam]

I've done it in 100 degree heat, btw. I still didn't have to take a two hour break before going again. I've spent 12 hour days at the business end of a shovel in over 100 degree heat in the desert and still only took a 15 min break about every two hours with a 30 minute lunch in the middle of the day. Then went out and partied that night.

[Yam]

Synthesis please come explain glycogen and ATP and all that stuff.

[jhunter]

Believe what you want. I was working on a construction crew building a waterpark in Barstow, CA in the middle summer. We were all also working extra overtime. I worked 12 hrs a day 7 days a week on that job for two months.

[a strange shadow]

For what it's worth, I would like to see stamina regenerate slowly while standing. It makes sense.

Supposedly it does this already, but I have never in all my 9-or-so years actually seen this happen.

[Marc]

I've done it in 100 degree heat, btw. I still didn't have to take a two hour break before going again.

Have you done in 130 degree heat?  With a non-metal axe?  That doesn't have any sort of tech to assist chopping?  All while in mortal danger a bug the size of a Buick might come through and bite your head off?  Edited to add: Construction in California is not comparable to logging the Grey Forest.  Come on

Of course not.  Don't compare apples and oranges.

Instead of only offering personal anecdotes try to address these questions:

Is this change realistic?  How is the current system unrealistic and how would the change improve it?

How might the change unbalance other systems in the game?  What would need to be done to prevent these problems?

How will the change benefit the player base and gaming experience?  Is this benefit for all players or a small subgroup?

Will this change create any more work for staff?  Is it a change that will need to be maintained, i.e. constant input/overview from staff?

I'm sure there are others, but you get the idea.  Don't take this as a "I hate your idea.  Stupid. Stupid."  It's a fine idea.  IMHO there are workarounds and this would not add very much to -my- experience.  This could be different for others so please expand on why you think this is a good idea, why tents/sitting etc do not fill this need and lets have discourse, not an exercise in digging in heels.

[Drayab]

The great improvement I would see from this is that it would be able to pace yourself without neurotically dropping to a resting position every few rooms.

Instead of having to completely stop to rest, you could just move at a pace that is set by your standing stamina regen rate, or alternatively, your mount's.

[jhunter]

Instead of only offering personal anecdotes try to address these questions: -You can't designate the terms with which I can present my argument or reasoning for this. Since we are RL people RL experiences are the majority of what we have to do so. To say I cannot utilize what I have to back it up is to say I cannot present argument for it without contrived information to back it up.
Is this change realistic? -From my personal experiences much more realistic than it currently is. I've already explained why.  
How is the current system unrealistic and how would the change improve it? -I've already stated both. Read previous posts.

How might the change unbalance other systems in the game? -I don't believe it will unbalance anything in the game. I believe that it is -currently- a little unbalanced in terms of realism and playability.  

What would need to be done to prevent these problems? -See previous answers and posts by myself and others.

How will the change benefit the player base and gaming experience? -It will allow players to spend more time -playing- instead of idling waiting for stamina to regen.  

Is this benefit for all players or a small subgroup? -It would be a benefit to all players of characters that spend much of their time doing coded physical activities.

Will this change create any more work for staff? -As would any coded change obviously.

Is it a change that will need to be maintained, i.e. constant input/overview from staff? -All coded changes should be observed over time by both staff and players to see if tweaking needs to be done. This is an example of one of those things. Since the other changes that cause more skills and abilities to stack up and use more and more stamina I believe it has become a playability issue.

[Yam]

This thread is going to be 10 pages of people disagreeing with you - maybe a few agreeing - hashing up the same arguments from all the other threads on stamina until people lose interest or it gets locked for spiraling into something about coded mudsex and stamina use.

Personally, as someone who has played a lot of active outdoors PCs, stamina regeneration has always felt fast. Even in sandstorms at mid sun. Especially if you have some shelter.