Stamina and You.

[jhunter]

Over the past several years we've had some code changes that all amount to more and more stamina being used. I kinda feel like now days if I'm playing an active character I spend more time sitting around waiting for stamina to recover than actually doing stuff. Am I the only one that feels like this? I think that the amount of stamina pcs get should be increased slightly or the stamina regen rate increased slightly to balance it back out a bit. Thoughts on the subject? Ideas?

[Spoon]

I think you could get away with going as far as doubling stamina regen for playability reasons. The only negative effect would possibly be more people being able to travel by foot as opposed to riding being the pretty much be all and end all of travel. Is that a negative effect? You would still need to stop and rest, people walking would still be just as vulnerable as before. You might actually see PCs other than elves walking around.

As for minor changes, it's been said before many a time, but stamina should regen whilst standing. Especially since HPs regen like that, why shouldn't stamina?

[jhunter]

Yeah maybe add some low standing regen and increase the resting and sleeping regen. Right now, it seems like my pc might work hard for about 15 min to 30 min (game time) and have to rest for two hours (game time) to recover from it. Pretty unrealistic.

[Cutthroat]

The only thing I would change is making stamina regenerate slowly while standing, to be more like HP and stun. I think stamina regeneration is otherwise fine, and recovers reasonably quickly while sitting or resting with normal endurance, so long as you're doing so in a restful place.

[Drayab]

I asked for standing stamina regen in RTW a while back.

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,39375.0.html

I still want it.

[Feco]

I think a /slow/ standing stam regen sounds wonderful.

[HavokBlue]

While there are reasons this could be bad (making travel more trivial), I kind of agree with this. A standing regen at least, would be pretty cool.

[Drayab]

In the other thread, the argument against is that it would make stealth even more OP.

[Qzzrbl]

Then don't offer standing stam regen while hidden?

[jhunter]

There we go. In fact, as a rule standing regen should only happen if you're not actively doing something else other than maybe using watch.

[Is Friday]

Yeah maybe add some low standing regen and increase the resting and sleeping regen. Right now, it seems like my pc might work hard for about 15 min to 30 min (game time) and have to rest for two hours (game time) to recover from it. Pretty unrealistic.

As an athletic individual I'd like to address this, (I'm also studying to become a Personal Trainer/Physical Therapist on the side, but I'm not certed yet so it's moot.)

If you take exercises such as Crossfit's "go-until-you-gas" regimens, you can literally deplete your entire day's energy in 20 minutes or less. (Even athletic individuals.) That is not to say that you wouldn't be able to walk around, but obviously, you're going to be walking around at a great handicap if you were using your legs/back. If you're putting out max effort on any physical event, you cannot maintain that level of power/speed/endurance. Take for instance sprints: You're gassing yourself at a much shorter distance than you would if you were to jog for a longer distance.

Recovery has a lot of factors into it, to include: weather conditions, hydration, food, mental state, amount of sleep, physical conditioning.

The system we have now is not perfect by any means--but if you're going to want a solution to recovering in a more realistic manner, you have an entirely separate column of variables you're going to have to plug in.

Anecdotes:
Mental conditioning can be considered just as important as physical. Your body is going to quit long before your mind will if you have a high level of mental conditioning, and because of this you can push your body well past its "breakdown". Also note that vice versa can occur--in which the individual quits long before the body reaches its threshold for pain. I have experienced this personally in several situations. I've been in places where I had to keep going for hours after my muscles had gone numb and all I could feel was the tendons and joints in my body tearing apart with each step.

Please bear in mind that usually I have had food and water sources available to me and thus was able to keep pushing. I think some players are unaware of how much a difference ample food and water will assist in your physical endeavors. When you're talking about Amos the miner who wants to walk a bit further in the desert--you have to realize he has limited resources like food, water, and cannot afford to rest his body properly if he's constantly needing to bring in those sid chunks.

The same goes for hunters that become injured--I'd imagine that unless you were a huge asset to your employer, you getting injured only means that you're shit out of luck. Obviously, that isn't the case for playability reasons. But it something to ponder on, would-be bad asses.

edit: Along the lines of mental conditioning, I was really hoping to work my way up to a role where I could showcase a warrior culture that involves mental/physical conditioning as a part its regular training. Sparring is necessary for coded gains--but c'mon, it's boring as shit. I can come up with some awesome conditioning drills.

p.s. Read "Gates of Fire" for a healthy representation of a brutal warrior culture such as the Lyksaens have.

[wizturbo]

More stamina would solve a lot of the problems.  Give everyone 25 more stamina to factor in all the new stamina eating skills and I think that'd improve things significantly with basically no code time required.

[jhunter]

Yeah maybe add some low standing regen and increase the resting and sleeping regen. Right now, it seems like my pc might work hard for about 15 min to 30 min (game time) and have to rest for two hours (game time) to recover from it. Pretty unrealistic.

As an athletic individual I'd like to address this, (I'm also studying to become a Personal Trainer/Physical Therapist on the side, but I'm not certed yet so it's moot.)

If you take exercises such as Crossfit's "go-until-you-gas" regimens, you can literally deplete your entire day's energy in 20 minutes or less. (Even athletic individuals.) That is not to say that you wouldn't be able to walk around, but obviously, you're going to be walking around at a great handicap if you were using your legs/back. If you're putting out max effort on any physical event, you cannot maintain that level of power/speed/endurance. Take for instance sprints: You're gassing yourself at a much shorter distance than you would if you were to jog for a longer distance.

Recovery has a lot of factors into it, to include: weather conditions, hydration, food, mental state, amount of sleep, physical conditioning.

The system we have now is not perfect by any means--but if you're going to want a solution to recovering in a more realistic manner, you have an entirely separate column of variables you're going to have to plug in.

Anecdotes:
Mental conditioning can be considered just as important as physical. Your body is going to quit long before your mind will if you have a high level of mental conditioning, and because of this you can push your body well past its "breakdown". Also note that vice versa can occur--in which the individual quits long before the body reaches its threshold for pain. I have experienced this personally in several situations. I've been in places where I had to keep going for hours after my muscles had gone numb and all I could feel was the tendons and joints in my body tearing apart with each step.

Please bear in mind that usually I have had food and water sources available to me and thus was able to keep pushing. I think some players are unaware of how much a difference ample food and water will assist in your physical endeavors. When you're talking about Amos the miner who wants to walk a bit further in the desert--you have to realize he has limited resources like food, water, and cannot afford to rest his body properly if he's constantly needing to bring in those sid chunks.

The same goes for hunters that become injured--I'd imagine that unless you were a huge asset to your employer, you getting injured only means that you're shit out of luck. Obviously, that isn't the case for playability reasons. But it something to ponder on, would-be bad asses.

edit: Along the lines of mental conditioning, I was really hoping to work my way up to a role where I could showcase a warrior culture that involves mental/physical conditioning as a part its regular training. Sparring is necessary for coded gains--but c'mon, it's boring as shit. I can come up with some awesome conditioning drills.

p.s. Read "Gates of Fire" for a healthy representation of a brutal warrior culture such as the Lyksaens have.

All I'm saying is I can chop wood for about 15-20 minutes straight and it doesn't take me two hours to be ready to go again.

[a strange shadow]

On the flip side, it would probably take much longer in RL to chop through a big fat baobab with a stone axe.

[Yam]

If anything, the stamina/fatigue in this game is too forgiving in most situations.

[Marc]

All I'm saying is I can chop wood for about 15-20 minutes straight and it doesn't take me two hours to be ready to go again.

Go chop wood in Death Valley or the Sahara on a sunny day and see how long you make it.  There is a reason why cultures in northern, cooler climates developed their work habits compared to equatorial peoples.  It's easier to put in a full day of work in 70-80 degree heat than it is in 100-110.  Don't compare what you can do IRL to what a Zalanthan can do.  Slippery slope.

Get some shelter.  Make sure you're not thirsty or hungry.  It's not perfect but it's not horrible either.  A tent gives you an indoor room to regen in.  It shouldn't be real restful in a tent with howling winds all around, sand leaking in through the low-tech materials, but it is perfect.  Should that be made more realistic?  Tents =/ indoor rooms.  Instead add shade?  That would make outdoor life rough. derail........

As for regening while standing.  Sure, it can be explained.  IMHO easier than explaining NOT regening while standing.  However how many circumstances can you list where sitting to regenerate movement would not be acceptable.  Beyond protocol (Guards don't sit!).  I'd be curious to compare that list to the potential issues with adding standing regen (stealth, too easy travel etc).

I.E.  Do the benefits out weight the drawbacks?

As for more stamina.  Sure?  I don't see it breaking anything, though it's pretty easy to get in the high 100's with most races.  Many can go higher than that with the proper equipment.  If you think +25 stamina would fix this problem, you can easily gain that through gear.  Think lightweight, desert-travel gear and start shopping around.

[jhunter]

I've done it in 100 degree heat, btw. I still didn't have to take a two hour break before going again. I've spent 12 hour days at the business end of a shovel in over 100 degree heat in the desert and still only took a 15 min break about every two hours with a 30 minute lunch in the middle of the day. Then went out and partied that night.

[Yam]

I've done it in 100 degree heat, btw. I still didn't have to take a two hour break before going again. I've spent 12 hour days at the business end of a shovel in over 100 degree heat in the desert and still only took a 15 min break about every two hours with a 30 minute lunch in the middle of the day. Then went out and partied that night.

[Yam]

Synthesis please come explain glycogen and ATP and all that stuff.

[jhunter]

Believe what you want. I was working on a construction crew building a waterpark in Barstow, CA in the middle summer. We were all also working extra overtime. I worked 12 hrs a day 7 days a week on that job for two months.

[a strange shadow]

For what it's worth, I would like to see stamina regenerate slowly while standing. It makes sense.

Supposedly it does this already, but I have never in all my 9-or-so years actually seen this happen.

[Marc]

I've done it in 100 degree heat, btw. I still didn't have to take a two hour break before going again.

Have you done in 130 degree heat?  With a non-metal axe?  That doesn't have any sort of tech to assist chopping?  All while in mortal danger a bug the size of a Buick might come through and bite your head off?  Edited to add: Construction in California is not comparable to logging the Grey Forest.  Come on

Of course not.  Don't compare apples and oranges.

Instead of only offering personal anecdotes try to address these questions:

Is this change realistic?  How is the current system unrealistic and how would the change improve it?

How might the change unbalance other systems in the game?  What would need to be done to prevent these problems?

How will the change benefit the player base and gaming experience?  Is this benefit for all players or a small subgroup?

Will this change create any more work for staff?  Is it a change that will need to be maintained, i.e. constant input/overview from staff?

I'm sure there are others, but you get the idea.  Don't take this as a "I hate your idea.  Stupid. Stupid."  It's a fine idea.  IMHO there are workarounds and this would not add very much to -my- experience.  This could be different for others so please expand on why you think this is a good idea, why tents/sitting etc do not fill this need and lets have discourse, not an exercise in digging in heels.

[Drayab]

The great improvement I would see from this is that it would be able to pace yourself without neurotically dropping to a resting position every few rooms.

Instead of having to completely stop to rest, you could just move at a pace that is set by your standing stamina regen rate, or alternatively, your mount's.

[jhunter]

Instead of only offering personal anecdotes try to address these questions: -You can't designate the terms with which I can present my argument or reasoning for this. Since we are RL people RL experiences are the majority of what we have to do so. To say I cannot utilize what I have to back it up is to say I cannot present argument for it without contrived information to back it up.
Is this change realistic? -From my personal experiences much more realistic than it currently is. I've already explained why.  
How is the current system unrealistic and how would the change improve it? -I've already stated both. Read previous posts.

How might the change unbalance other systems in the game? -I don't believe it will unbalance anything in the game. I believe that it is -currently- a little unbalanced in terms of realism and playability.  

What would need to be done to prevent these problems? -See previous answers and posts by myself and others.

How will the change benefit the player base and gaming experience? -It will allow players to spend more time -playing- instead of idling waiting for stamina to regen.  

Is this benefit for all players or a small subgroup? -It would be a benefit to all players of characters that spend much of their time doing coded physical activities.

Will this change create any more work for staff? -As would any coded change obviously.

Is it a change that will need to be maintained, i.e. constant input/overview from staff? -All coded changes should be observed over time by both staff and players to see if tweaking needs to be done. This is an example of one of those things. Since the other changes that cause more skills and abilities to stack up and use more and more stamina I believe it has become a playability issue.

[Yam]

This thread is going to be 10 pages of people disagreeing with you - maybe a few agreeing - hashing up the same arguments from all the other threads on stamina until people lose interest or it gets locked for spiraling into something about coded mudsex and stamina use.

Personally, as someone who has played a lot of active outdoors PCs, stamina regeneration has always felt fast. Even in sandstorms at mid sun. Especially if you have some shelter.

[jhunter]

This thread is going to be 10 pages of people disagreeing with you - maybe a few agreeing - hashing up the same arguments from all the other threads on stamina until people lose interest or it gets locked for spiraling into something about coded mudsex and stamina use.

Personally, as someone who has played a lot of active outdoors PCs, stamina regeneration has always felt fast. Even in sandstorms at mid sun. Especially if you have some shelter.

I count the majority of those posting agreeing that some change needs to be made actually. Dunno what thread you're looking at. Oh and if some of you are just posting here to argue with me because you have a personal issue with me don't bother. I won't be baited in. In fact, this will be my last post in the thread.

[roughneck]

Regening stamina in the desert is a pain in the ass but tents solve the problem.  I've played a human pc with below average endurance who often hunted/gathered on foot with a tent.  In many ways it was less impeding than waiting an enormous amount of time for a mount to regen stamina.

My only issue with how stamina works is in regards to desert elves.  Make their stamina depleted the same as other races and mounts but give them much more of it instead of the way it is now.  Currently a delf can run nearly as far as a mount but regen in a fraction of the time.  Makes no sense.  But I doubt that will change.

Really I hate waiting for tired mounts more than anything else.

[Taven]

I don't see huge issues with the stamina regain, although it can feel like you're sitting around sometimes. The trick is to find something to do while you wait, such as Way someone or get into an internal dialogue with the think command. That said, I would support a very slow regain of stamina when standing. Especially if you're in the city, or something. I think that not regaining stamina while hiding and standing is a good idea.

[Synthesis]

Synthesis please come explain glycogen and ATP and all that stuff.

Well, I mean...your liver stores enough glycogen to keep you going for 12-24 hours, at least.  Then you've got proteolysis and lipolysis...assuming you stay hydrated, it takes a fairly long time to get a human being so energy-depleted that they literally can't move.  In that sense, the current system is kind of silly.

Ideally, you'd (rarely) go below 1 stamina (maybe when you've become dehydrated, and of course when you're poisoned with grishen), but your movement timer would start getting longer and longer and longer and longer as you lost stamina.  Long enough to where it would take a solid 15 seconds or so to trudge through an outdoor room at 1 stamina.

Additionally, skill checks should suffer much harsher penalties at low stamina levels, to reflect the relative state of exhaustion.  (It seems like penalties already apply, but they're not awful.)

The system would make much more sense with a within-room grid system and weather/equipment/race/stat/hunger/thirst/stamina-based movement speeds, but it really doesn't bother me that much.

[Drayab]

While such a detailed system would be really cool, I am actually pretty content with the status quo. Sometimes KISS is best.

But I still want standing regen. 

[drunkendwarf]

But I still want standing regen. 

+1

[KankWhisperer]

Standing Regen makes sense. I mean it probably is not going to work in the desert very well anyway because when it is not regenning when you are  RESTING, I doubt it will do anything while standing.

My pet peeve is how adding +move equipment will actually make you seem to regen slower. You reach a certain level of moves, you actually reach some % thresh hold easier and then regen is much slower.
If my character was naked it would walk and rest and regain its stamina in a blinding sandstorm in the middle of the salt flats or other hot location. It wears its full desert kit and at the same environment at the same literal number of move points, it will take FOREVER to regen. Maybe this is just my imagination, coded change that went into place when I got my equipment or coincidence.

[Gunnerblaster]

I vote Yes to a Standing Regen.

Limitations are that they aren't doing anything. At all. Besides just standing there.

If you're attempting to hide - No Regen.

[SMuz]

IMO, stamina already regens too fast, but a standing stamina regen makes sense.

Maybe make it that stamina stand regens if it's above 70% of the current capacity. And change it so that if it's below 30%, the only way you could regen it is by sleeping. That way, if you push yourself to a point where you're literally nearly unable to move, you'd really need some time off to recover.

And then make them sore (-HP) if they've walked until they can no longer stand and sleep it off the whole night, though not to the point where they can die out of being sore

Also considering what Is Friday said about food, heavy stamina usage should also make you hungrier and thirstier. Which also covers in for the ridiculous profits one can make from sid and salt mining. If it cuts into mining profits too much with that 30% stamina change, then drop stamina loss for mining to around 5-7. It's more profitable for raiders and thieves too, because they'd find miners lying around everywhere the sleep off the weariness.

Realism FTW.

[Gunnerblaster]

IMO, stamina already regens too fast, but a standing stamina regen makes sense.

Maybe make it that stamina stand regens if it's above 70% of the current capacity. And change it so that if it's below 30%, the only way you could regen it is by sleeping. That way, if you push yourself to a point where you're literally nearly unable to move, you'd really need some time off to recover.

And then make them sore (-HP) if they've walked until they can no longer stand and sleep it off the whole night, though not to the point where they can die out of being sore

Also considering what Is Friday said about food, heavy stamina usage should also make you hungrier and thirstier. Which also covers in for the ridiculous profits one can make from sid and salt mining. If it cuts into mining profits too much with that 30% stamina change, then drop stamina loss for mining to around 5-7. It's more profitable for raiders and thieves too, because they'd find miners lying around everywhere the sleep off the weariness.

Realism FTW.

You lost me at forced sleep.

Since you can't force-wake yourself unless attacked and/or otherwise awoken by another - I see this more damaging to the fun factor in this game.

In the end, entertainment trumps realism. It is, afterall, a fantasy roleplay. Make it too realistic and it'll just become frustrating.

I have been in situations where I have just barely survived by a few scant stamina. Did I emote dropping over from exhaustion, when safe? Yes. Laying down and going to sleep in the desert has never struck me as a very intelligible thing - Like trying to go to sleep in a snow storm.

[SMuz]

Well, remove the bit where they can't wake up. I think I read somewhere that no matter how deeply you sleep, if you feel that your life may be threatened, you won't be in an unwakeable sleep.

[Gunnerblaster]

Well, remove the bit where they can't wake up. I think I read somewhere that no matter how deeply you sleep, if you feel that your life may be threatened, you won't be in an unwakeable sleep.

When attacked, you wake up automatically unless you were forcefully knocked unconscious. Otherwise, you can't wake up until your stamina is at 85% of it's max, which is pretty stupid...

[SMuz]

Well, remove the bit where they can't wake up. I think I read somewhere that no matter how deeply you sleep, if you feel that your life may be threatened, you won't be in an unwakeable sleep.

When attacked, you wake up automatically unless you were forcefully knocked unconscious. Otherwise, you can't wake up until your stamina is at 85% of it's max, which is pretty stupid...

I meant IRL. I think even if most people were passed out in a desert, they should be able to wake up if they were scared enough to not enter a deep sleep.

[solera]

IMO, stamina already regens too fast, but a standing stamina regen makes sense.

Maybe make it that stamina stand regens if it's above 70% of the current capacity. And change it so that if it's below 30%, the only way you could regen it is by sleeping. That way, if you push yourself to a point where you're literally nearly unable to move, you'd really need some time off to recover.

And then make them sore (-HP) if they've walked until they can no longer stand and sleep it off the whole night, though not to the point where they can die out of being sore

Also considering what Is Friday said about food, heavy stamina usage should also make you hungrier and thirstier. Which also covers in for the ridiculous profits one can make from sid and salt mining. If it cuts into mining profits too much with that 30% stamina change, then drop stamina loss for mining to around 5-7. It's more profitable for raiders and thieves too, because they'd find miners lying around everywhere the sleep off the weariness.

Realism FTW.

I've always felt this is the way it should be.  Or at least have stamina regen acting like hp regen.

[Dalmeth]

The only problem with the current stamina regeneration system is the game-stopping nature of regenerating stamina.

Stamina is still limited in a fashion more in line with the old hack and slash systems of old : a character with X stamina can move Y distance before it is no longer able to evade.  Regaining stamina is meant to be an active process, whereby you are specifically out of combat while regenerating stamina.  However, now we have a world where sitting every five minutes doesn't look too good, no matter its benefits.   We can't pace ourselves, and we don't get any bonus for taking it easy.  So we have it that no one except desert elves moves on foot, and their advantages approach the absurd.

There are several solutions, one being a low-level constantly available stamina regeneration bound by the idea that it shouldn't really be helpful while the PC's resources are in demand.  Two options for such an implementation would be either disabling passive regeneration for a certain amount of time after a stamina-draining activity, or creating a fourth state of rest in addition to sitting, resting, and sleeping whereby a PC can start regenerating stamina while remaining more ready to act than either of those previous states allow, essentially a standing rest state.   The latter conforms to the old method of doing things, whereby the player is encouraged toward constant activity and can be a hindrance to those players who don't want to work quite that hard at playing the game.  The former has more balance concerns, such as whether passive regeneration while hidden should work.  Essentially, a ranger that regenerates stamina while hidden can attack and evade a pursuing warrior indefinitely without consequence.  Such consequences might not be might not be immediately noticeable in day to day play, but that is because we have molded our play around them.

[Yam]

I don't know what you're talking about. What is wrong with sitting down while trekking through the wilderness? I often sit on hikes. Sometimes there are even comfy rocks. Sometimes I lay out and stretch and eat some nuts.


Here is a coded example that you can follow:

Code Select Expand

sit (shouldering off his backpack and popping a squat)

say (squinting out at the scrub beyond) Ayup.




Here is an illustration of what I'm suggesting:

[Synthesis]

Yeah, when I'm playing an outdoorsy mount-riding type, I almost always stop and rest the mount when it gets "winded," just in case I have to haul ass later.  These are the things that will keep you alive.

[Celest]

My only issue with stamina is that riding a mount doesn't codedly regenerate the PCs stamina, even though you're sitting and doing nothing else exhausting.

[Yam]

My only issue with stamina is that riding a mount doesn't codedly regenerate the PCs stamina, even though you're sitting and doing nothing else exhausting.

Have you never ridden in real life? It's exhausting.

[Feco]

My only issue with stamina is that riding a mount doesn't codedly regenerate the PCs stamina, even though you're sitting and doing nothing else exhausting.

Have you never ridden in real life? It's exhausting.

Very, very, very exhausting.  I'm glad in some places it actually drains stamina to ride.  For playability, though, I like that it just kills stam regen in most places.

[maxid]

Synth's system with the excess timers/penalties is a really really neat idea, and I'd play it in a heartbeat. 

But, I don't think it would be easy to implement, and might end up being more trouble than it was worth.  In any case, yeah the stamina system we have right now is kinda dumb for the previously stated reasons but in the end, it's a game, it won't be 100% realistic at all times, and this is the system we have.  I'd love to have a low standing regen, but then autofleeing game would be even more annoying to catch.

[SMuz]

IMO, I'd be fine if stamina were just changed to act just like HP, without sleep being necessary to recover. And maybe something like if you reach 0 stamina you can't stand up. But you'd still be able to wake from sleep, without having to wait for the 80% stamina thing.

[Chettaman]

I like the idea of extremely slow regen while standing but instead of it giving alot of stam back make it stop at half of your max.
Faster regen I'm not so sure about. Trust me. Desert weather must be almost unbearable. I say this and I havn't even been in a real desert. Just a small one. PS: maybe there -is- faster regen. No one takes the time or chances to find out, though. Just saying.
How come no one's said anything about slower movement at 0 stamina?

Code Select Expand

Health 35 Stun 115 Stamina 0
> east (15 seconds later)
You force yourself to move east.

The desert
Oh yeah. Lots of sand in this room.

>east (15 seconds later)
You force yourself to move east.

The desert
More sand. Long way to go.

>east (15 seconds later)
You stumble and fall on your face.

[Morgenes]

It was mentioned before, but I think it should just be an instant off. More like a gradual decrease on all speed (combat, foraging, movement, etc.) anywhere below like 30% stamina. The further down to zero, the slower you go.

[Gunnerblaster]

I'd love to still be able to move at 0 Stamina.

Make it have a delay and like walking drunk. A chance to fall on your face and just lay there. If it takes more Stamina than you have to move from one area to another - You should get a delay before you move and a delay afterwards, with a chance to fall over, in between.

[HavokBlue]

Not being able to do anything at 0 stam has led to me losing one of my favorite characters in a very silly situation.

It kind of sucks.

[Saellyn]

It was mentioned before, but I think it should just be an instant off. More like a gradual decrease on all speed (combat, foraging, movement, etc.) anywhere below like 30% stamina. The further down to zero, the slower you go.

This. Although the current system is fine by me, really. I'm just saying, this -would- be really really cool to see.