World Plots versus Personal Plots

[MeTekillot]

I can't see Kadius gettings its frilly, obscenely proper hands dirty.

You'd be amazingly surprised.

Cindy has obviously never played in Kadius ever.

[Cindy42]

I can't see Kadius gettings its frilly, obscenely proper hands dirty.

You'd be amazingly surprised.

Cindy has obviously never played in Kadius ever.

I tend to avoid situations where I can't move around as freely as I want, yes.

[FantasyWriter]

My Tuluki-inkied Kadian Merchant later Agent (guild merchant) would get a wild hair up his butt and occasionally set out to Allanak or to have smokes/drinks with tribals in Luir's or their respective camps, or just go 'shoot up some grub'.

He was also responsible for several assassinations (most being in-house-cleanup ,two of which he carried out personally), purposefully had the Tuluki Templarate believe he had committed treason in order to later lower the status of a prominate noble when the truth came out publicly.  He was also trying to become a (redacted for IC info) and believed himself a candidate to join (redacted for IC info).

So, Cindy, what your family is famous for can have as little or as much impact on your PCs personality and goals as you/they want them to.  If for no other reason, being a Kadian sets you at an advantage to gaining power due to nobility/the Templarate's reliance on you for their upper-class goods and services.

Oh yeah... he also got a kick out of walking around in Nak with his inks showing and copper jewelry well displayed, especially when meeting with Nobles/Templars.

[Lizzie]

My Kadian used to bribe a friend to raid her wagon just so her guards would have something fun to do on the way to Tuluk.

My other Kadian went where she wanted, when she wanted, and there really was no one ordering her to do otherwise. It really depends on your boss and your position in the House. If you're a hunter, you're expected to go out and explore, travel, kill stuff, greb stuff, and NOT hang around in the compound or the tavern for days on end. So it sounds more like something perfect for someone who wants freedom, but also pay.

[valeria]

My Kadian wasn't a namby-pamby princess either.

Anyone that thinks Kadians are less likely to be ruthless and vicious than any other organized group on the face of Zalanthas should think about how capitalism and dynastic-monopolistic families have worked throughout RL history.  I can't be the only one thinking of 'legitimate businesmen.'  Add how someone might go about obtaining and keeping a monopoly on Zalanthas... ye-ap.

[chrisdcoulombe]

Merchant house conflict; I saw it  mentioned on this thread and think It will occur naturally. If given time or something to fight over...conflict would be accelerated.  Perhaps something like "METAL" would be a great conflict starter, but any resource would do if supply became short enough.  Gmh conflict could be huge.  Could you imagine one Gmh moving in on another because of a conflict over territory or materials.  It could easily start  a minor war.  Think about alliances and who sides with who.  This is an excellent premise to create supplemented player driven plots.  Sometimes stuff just needs a little vitamin Imm.

That being said, I have already witnessed things supplemented so what is it that is holding everyone back.  I don't see a problem if you want a world plot move between all the city states creating conflict with rumors.  "rumors spread that Blah from Bah did something to piss off x."

[Reiloth]

Merchant Houses have plenty of inter-House conflict. You will most likely, unless you are involved, not see this conflict as they don't want issue with the Templars over it.

This is what makes House Kurac a difficult House to deal with, as they have their own Outpost, where their word is law. Sure, Salarr and Kadius own buildings inside of it, but if they sufficiently pissed off Kurac, they could easily shut them out.

[chrisdcoulombe]

Yes, however I am talking about something major to throw off the balance, not minor political squabbles.

[jstorrie]

The merchant houses like the balance. The balance is what allows them to be ballin'.

[Reiloth]

The merchant houses like the balance. The balance is what allows them to be ballin'.

Not only that, but usually individuals responsible for disrupting that balance are taken care of "In House". It may sound lame, but consider; if someone in the Mafia laid out a made man just to 'stir shit up' and 'cause a ruckus', he'd be sleeping with the fishes in no time.

[jstorrie]

Accordingly the key to doing any major balance-upsetting shit is to convince your superiors (meaning both the NPC characters, and the staff behind them), whether by hook or by crook, that it's a good idea first. Blackmail your house elders, or bribe them, or produce false evidence, or whatever.

I have little doubt that a PC could foment, for example, a Kurac-vs-Kadius war if they wanted to. But they'd have to go about it in such a manner that it would actually be possible in Zalanthas. Junior Agent Whatshisfuck will get slapped down hard if he just tries to do it solo.

[Fathi]

For what it's worth, I've got 2.5 to 3 years of playing in the Merchant Houses under my belt, and there have definitely been more than minor political squabbles. These events do not often take place beween the Houses themselves, but there have been huge upsets, unrests, murders, too-IC-to-mentions, and huge conflicts both inside each individual House and between the Houses and the various Templarates.

Kadius and Kurac probably won't go to war against each other because they are not direct competitors, and money is the primary concern of both establishments.

[number13]

Kadius and Kurac probably won't go to war against each other because they are not direct competitors, and money is the primary concern of both establishments.

Isn't that sort of the point though?  The status of the GMHs (or noble houses even) being chummy with each other by force of economics, Tek, Mek, and NPC fiat is more boring than Kadian and Kuraci forces having to actively stare down each other as they pass along the North Road and decide if it's worth the fight.

Or maybe, while overall the Houses are at 'peace', or at least not engaged in a shooting war, the Expeditionary forces of Kurac and the (...i don't know) Home and Garden division of Kadius are at odds -- and likely come to blows circumstances permitting.  Of course, these would be the subunits that would be populated by PCs. 

[Sam]

Kadius and Kurac are in direct conflict. They both want to get richer. They both would have to expand their markets to do so.
Kurac controls the tribal clothing market, tribal supply market, and some other things.
Kadius owns a few shops that are in direct conflict with that.

[Dresan]

Wait just a darn minute here...

Adhira won't spawn zombies to attack and eat all of Allanak.

And in other posts i'm reading say something about forced storage for players who reach the power to spawn a mass zombie invasion of all allanak.

...hmmm...wtf does all this mean... does it mean no zombies....OMGWTF?!? No Zombies!!!  


Yeah, yeah, yeah its not like that, i know, just playing, don't flame me.

I remember a time where the general playerbase had almost no ability to influence plots, where if you were really good, lucky, or if you had the right ooc connections, maybe you could find out about what the hell was going on during some of the larger world changing plots. It used to be the playerbase and especially the staff were so tight lipped about just about everything that at the end of the plots most people were often left thinking 'wow...That looked cool, I wonder what happened?'....let alone trying to find out -why- anything ever happened.   We were constantly told that cool things happened, we certainly got some indication of that, but the plot or storyline never really trickled down to the playerbase. We were basically were forced to take the staff's word that the plots that were going on were cool, mysterious and awesome.

Fast forward too the copper wars when all this began to change. Finally one of the few plots almost all the player base could look back on and say, wow, i know what happened and why. I don't think i'd have any problems finding out more information ICly even as a player today. I could honestly say it was a great plot. The change for more player driven stuff and the ability for players to influence more stuff really began to roll since then. I guess this what that ideal evolved into, staff mostly supporting only player driven plots. To be honest, i'd be speaking out of my ass if i said anything good or bad about the current state of the game regarding plots or anything else. I don't honestly know yet, however i will say that regardless of what it actually is, I believe the game is still in a better place then what it was so many moons ago. I also really agree with the poster that said that 'much has been sacrificed to get here', and i for one am glad since at the very least it seems like a better place to build from.  


Or at least i hope...sigh~ Zombies...  

[My 2 sids]

Kadius and Kurac are in direct conflict. They both want to get richer. They both would have to expand their markets to do so.

Exactly, they have to be able to expand their markets.  Regardless of what players may think, Zan isn't a Capitalistic society!!  These GMH exist because the nobility allow them to do so.  If they start making war, showing just how powerful they are, they'll draw attention they don't want.  And they'll be put down because commoners can't be allowed to accumulate true power and/or the idea they can have true power.

[Zoltan]

Kadius and Kurac are in direct conflict. They both want to get richer. They both would have to expand their markets to do so.

Exactly, they have to be able to expand their markets.  Regardless of what players may think, Zan isn't a Capitalistic society!!  These GMH exist because the nobility allow them to do so.  If they start making war, showing just how powerful they are, they'll draw attention they don't want.  And they'll be put down because commoners can't be allowed to accumulate true power and/or the idea they can have true power.

I'm glad you said that. Yes, Zalanthas is definitely NOT a capitalist society, even if players/PCs tend to unconsciously treat it that way. Such a thing can't truly exist in a world where omnipotent god-kings run things. Or at least, you certainly can't have that capitalist ideology (or you can, and interesting things can happen). That's one reason I'm glad that an indie, no matter how many coded coins they've accrued, just doesn't have the overall sway and perks of a "proper" house. No wagons or special buildings for indies! Because if you let -one- group claw its way up outside of the "proper channels", then maybe -anyone- could do it! And what would that do to society?! 

[number13]

These GMH exist because the nobility allow them to do so.  If they start making war, showing just how powerful they are, they'll draw attention they don't want.

House Kurac owns an outpost. They have an army that's been used to defend and liberate that outpost on multiple occasions.  Who is under the delusion that House Kurac isn't a powerful force?  Your argument might work for Salarr, Kadius, or any of the many minor merchant houses, but Kurac is clearly richer than and at least as potent as many noble houses -- with no effort at a cover-up.  It might not be polite to mention to Lord Dasari that the Kuraci could buy his house several times over, or crush it ease (Sun King permitting), but not even in Tuluk are the facts of Kuraci wealth a forbidden topic.  Every common gutterslug knows about Luirs.

[Nil AlSahni]

Only uh... no matter how rich they are... this sums up the entire reason they're not more powerful:

(Sun King permitting)

They can't freakin touch the sorcerer kings. They are screwed if the cities turn them out. Even if Kurac would be better off than the other GMHs, they are highly dependent on trade in them for business. And without that business, there IS no power.

[palomar]

These GMH exist because the nobility allow them to do so.  If they start making war, showing just how powerful they are, they'll draw attention they don't want.

House Kurac owns an outpost. They have an army that's been used to defend and liberate that outpost on multiple occasions.  Who is under the delusion that House Kurac isn't a powerful force?  Your argument might work for Salarr, Kadius, or any of the many minor merchant houses, but Kurac is clearly richer than and at least as potent as many noble houses -- with no effort at a cover-up.  It might not be polite to mention to Lord Dasari that the Kuraci could buy his house several times over, or crush it ease (Sun King permitting), but not even in Tuluk are the facts of Kuraci wealth a forbidden topic.  Every common gutterslug knows about Luirs.

Kurac's armed forces are nowhere near the numbers of the armies of either city-state. They also were not able to defend their Outpost on their own last time it was overrun, nor were they alone in the effort of liberating it.

They are powerful and very versatile, having lots of resources. However, a Noble house of either city-state is just that -- a part of a city-state with all it means in regards to support and resources. Sure, Kurac might be wealthy enough to buy the holdings of a Noble house several times over. That certainly does not mean they are able to.

Also, what Nil AlSahni said.

[Cindy42]

Wait just a darn minute here...

Adhira won't spawn zombies to attack and eat all of Allanak.

And in other posts i'm reading say something about forced storage for players who reach the power to spawn a mass zombie invasion of all allanak.

...hmmm...wtf does all this mean... does it mean no zombies....OMGWTF?!? No Zombies!!!  


Yeah, yeah, yeah its not like that, i know, just playing, don't flame me.

I remember a time where the general playerbase had almost no ability to influence plots, where if you were really good, lucky, or if you had the right ooc connections, maybe you could find out about what the hell was going on during some of the larger world changing plots. It used to be the playerbase and especially the staff were so tight lipped about just about everything that at the end of the plots most people were often left thinking 'wow...That looked cool, I wonder what happened?'....let alone trying to find out -why- anything ever happened.   We were constantly told that cool things happened, we certainly got some indication of that, but the plot or storyline never really trickled down to the playerbase. We were basically were forced to take the staff's word that the plots that were going on were cool, mysterious and awesome.

Fast forward too the copper wars when all this began to change. Finally one of the few plots almost all the player base could look back on and say, wow, i know what happened and why. I don't think i'd have any problems finding out more information ICly even as a player today. I could honestly say it was a great plot. The change for more player driven stuff and the ability for players to influence more stuff really began to roll since then. I guess this what that ideal evolved into, staff mostly supporting only player driven plots. To be honest, i'd be speaking out of my ass if i said anything good or bad about the current state of the game regarding plots or anything else. I don't honestly know yet, however i will say that regardless of what it actually is, I believe the game is still in a better place then what it was so many moons ago. I also really agree with the poster that said that 'much has been sacrificed to get here', and i for one am glad since at the very least it seems like a better place to build from.  


Or at least i hope...sigh~ Zombies...  

i thought players only got guilds with skills like that once they proved they could be trusted with power. still get stored? what if they sent in a request to do something productive with the power, like, create a new city or village.

[FantasyWriter]

'Power' in Armageddon can and does go far beyond what the code gives you.

[number13]

Sorry, I know I shouldn't perpetuate this but:

The question isn't whether or not Kurac can (or would even want) to take down Mek, Tek, or the Sandlord.  The question is if Kurac could plausibly have a lukewarm war with another merchant house.  Sam's theory was that the templars or nobles would squash a merchant war, because it would signal to the population that commoners can have Stuff.  But... Kurac already has plenty of visible power.

[Synthesis]

Until Kurac has some Wootzie-da motherfucker who can transform into a dragon and zorch an army of rebellious dwarves, I'm pretty sure they can STFU and DIAF as far as Tektolnes is concerned.

[Spice Spice Baby]

If you take a peek at this doc here, you'll see that House Delann nee Kohmar was almost completely wiped out by House Kadius. While the docs say it was a political clash, it's still an indicator of a fairly large conflict that resulted in considerable losses for one party. Further down, we see that Kurac completely absorbed House Deuring, though the means by which it happened aren't detailed.

There's no mention of how each city's templars and nobles reacted to these events, but they obviously didn't squash the conflicts out of existence.

My opinion on the matter is that the GMHs could go to war all they wanted with each other, but the powers that be would probably step in as soon as the struggle fell outside the bounds of inter-merchant conflict.