World Plots versus Personal Plots

[Semper]

Spawned from a few posts in the State of the game poll and others, I wanted to possibly discuss ways that we as players of Armageddon's current incarnation can be involved in active plots running in the game. There's two topics I hope to focus on specifically.

How can we include off-peak players and those without hours and hours of time (the casual player) into larger, world-spanning plots? In an attempt to answer this, another question that arises is:

In a player-driven emphasis on plots, how could a leader coordinate with others to produce plots that have a clear theme (ex. Copper Wars) and long-term goals (ex. taking certain geographic locations, solving the question of remaining supplied, bringing other organizations into the fray) all the while having smaller sub-plots which ordinary PCs (and casual players) can participate in?

The following are the posts that I reference from:

I'm not sure I even remember what a "plot" is, but that's what happens when you can't play 2-3 hours or more a night. Arm's always been that way, and there aren't really any viable solutions to the casual player problem. I could post a litany of complaints about how I think the hands-off staffing policy has driven even more nails into the coffins of offpeak and casual players, but there's no real point.

I have a feeling that the people who are voting for the negative options are frustrated because in the age where players have to generate everything, it can be difficult to do when your personal situation, IC or OOC, is not conducive to lengthy planning sessions with other PCs.

The one MAJOR difference that I see now that imms don't push plots is if two leaders play different times, there is no great plot they can be involved in unless there is a middle man. With my last leader, I can only assume I played odd hours, because I never saw another leader PC that I was trying to find.

I feel that sure, we have lots of plots and action, but where are the larger, broader plots that impact the Known as a whole? It seems we get a glimpse of the surface of a pool, and suppose that there's activity going on deeper down, when in reality the pool is only a couple feet deep, when there SHOULD be a lake there.

[added: I know there are plots that include many organizations, and impact the Known in a large way. In a player-driven environment, where it's bottom-heavy (no PC High Templars, Black Robes, etc who can drive it), is it possible to tie in these larger plots together, and how?

[Is Friday]

Player-driven plots has given me the freedom to make lonely mudsturbating a staff-supported event.

[Nyr]

So you want to go back to the days of staff authoring plots from start to finish?  Players get to jump in as they will, or not, or just be unaffected by it (as many were even in those days)?

[Semper]

So you want to go back to the days of staff authoring plots from start to finish?  Players get to jump in as they will, or not, or just be unaffected by it (as many were even in those days)?

That wasn't what I was intending to say... I'm genuinely asking how we can have those larger plots in the current player-driven emphasis we have on plots. Nyr, maybe it's how I'm wording my questions (or the topics I'm choosing) but I'm not trying to argue against any of the current staff/game policies. I'm asking how we can work with it, given the limitations such presents, and if there are other possibilities or improvements that can be made to them.

[Nyr]

I don't want to say "check IC."

I will say, however, that recent events in one area in particular are such that (should you hear about them) you will know that it is a player plot, created entirely by the actions of players, with the result being a world-altering change. 

How can we include off-peak players and those without hours and hours of time (the casual player) into larger, world-spanning plots?

I don't see this as any different than any plot, ever.  This may seem like a cop-out, but I don't feel like it is.  If you're off-peak, how do you get involved in any plots?  Extrapolate upwards.  There are threads on this much, I think.

In an attempt to answer this, another question that arises is:

In a player-driven emphasis on plots, how could a leader coordinate with others to produce plots that have a clear theme (ex. Copper Wars) and long-term goals (ex. taking certain geographic locations, solving the question of remaining supplied, bringing other organizations into the fray) all the while having smaller sub-plots which ordinary PCs (and casual players) can participate in?

It looks like this question answers itself.  Make sure your plot that you want to do has a clear theme.  Show clear goals.  Involve other clans by appealing to what those clans DO.

[Erythil]

Dunno if this is the right topic, but, on the subject of getting big exciting world plots going...

To my mind, part of the problem with the change to the 'player-driven' policy in ARM 1, is that ARM 1 is a brutally hierarchical world, where even leadership PCs don't matter much, and by the time you make it to a rank where you can really change things on a global scale (say, red-robed templars for instance) you are forcibly retired so as not to disrupt the equilibrium and balance of the game world.  Zalanthas is based around Muk Utep giving his orders from above, rather than sergeant so-and-so starting actions from below.

It feels almost like there is an entire level of existence above the PCs' heads, currently, that doesn't really get seen very much.  Like there's a whole plane of politics and power that no longer really does anything.  My perception as a relative newcomer is that staff are most likely to say 'you don't have enough authority' when players try to start big plots.

I suspect a bunch of people are going to come out and tell me I'm whining or that I'm 'doing it wrong', but what I'm saying is, specifically, 'player-driven' and 'world-spanning' don't seem to go together in the current setting, which I suppose will change greatly when ARM 2 is released.

[wizturbo]

So you want to go back to the days of staff authoring plots from start to finish?  Players get to jump in as they will, or not, or just be unaffected by it (as many were even in those days)?

I think a hybrid option is best.  Let there be one or two staff written plots going on in the world, and the rest be player driven.  Divert a portion of staff resources to both avenues, and I think we'll get the best of both worlds.

[Erythil]

So you want to go back to the days of staff authoring plots from start to finish?  Players get to jump in as they will, or not, or just be unaffected by it (as many were even in those days)?

I think a hybrid option is best.  Let there be one or two staff written plots going on in the world, and the rest be player driven.  Divert a portion of staff resources to both avenues, and I think we'll get the best of both worlds.

I agree with this.

[Adhira]

Staff are allowed to write plots, and they do.  They are however based on what they see going on in game.  Writing plots these days essentially consists of coming up with a range of scenarios that spring from what they see players doing or moving towards in  game.  It's one good reason to keep staff informed of the lofty goals of your PC, they may not comment on them, they may say, this will be difficult to achieve, but they'l be watching and waiting to put a few things in to move that plot along.  What staff aren't doing is sitting down and saying 'Wouldn't it be cool if zombies came along and took over the rinth, then marched on nak and ate all the Templars'. We aren't going to sit around and make shit up that has no basis in anything, give us something to work with, and we'll go from there.

[Dresan]

What staff aren't doing is sitting down and saying 'Wouldn't it be cool if zombies came along and took over the rinth, then marched on nak and ate all the Templars'.

Not to derail this thread since as usual I've only skimmed the posts here but....god i wish this would happen. It sounds like it would be fun. 

[Bushranger]

What staff aren't doing is sitting down and saying 'Wouldn't it be cool if zombies came along and took over the rinth, then marched on nak and ate all the Templars'.

Not to derail this thread since as usual I've only skimmed the posts here but....god i wish this would happen. It sounds like it would be fun. 

This is something that a player could make happen. I, too, think this would be awesome and might begin working towards it with the next PC I make in the 'rinth!

[Potaje]

I would like to simply say that I have witnessed a plot developed by a staff member around my pc. This was not suggested or created by myself though it had direct bearing on my pc and was a total shocking surprise and delight. Whether completed or not was left up to the culmination of those players involved for which it drew in many.

I suppose I am just trying to illustrate that staff does offer these plots, are we always prepared for them, no.
Does it offer us something to work for, yes. As well, since these plots are not forced upon us, and more or less present, we are at liberty to develop side plots that run along them, grow them in size, fail or succeed.

There is another aspect, as I think about this, that I have seen three of four plots grow from the idea of a pc that then through circumstance did in fact blossom to a larger staff-aided plot, one leading into another that will set about change of the greater environment. Though as I recall there were moments of frustration in trying to accomplish the direction of change and influence from the pcs and all that needed to happen was a variation of strategy, new discovery of idea and implementation. Then it took off with nods and support.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is this not what we are discussing there is a lack of? To me it seems the mid-ground suggested.

[Barzalene]

Staff are allowed to write plots, and they do.  They are however based on what they see going on in game.  Writing plots these days essentially consists of coming up with a range of scenarios that spring from what they see players doing or moving towards in  game.  It's one good reason to keep staff informed of the lofty goals of your PC, they may not comment on them, they may say, this will be difficult to achieve, but they'l be watching and waiting to put a few things in to move that plot along.  What staff aren't doing is sitting down and saying 'Wouldn't it be cool if zombies came along and took over the rinth, then marched on nak and ate all the Templars'. We aren't going to sit around and make shit up that has no basis in anything, give us something to work with, and we'll go from there.

Yet another reason to add a like button!

[Reiloth]

To comment on only a bit of this -- I don't think it's terribly possible for off-peak players to do much besides involve each other in their own plots. It's very hard to coordinate between peak/off-peak, and i've had more frustration than joy trying to find RPT times that work for myself and peak players. It's lead to storage of several characters i've enjoyed, but yeah. It's a tough thing.

When my schedule is entirely unpredictable or i'm terribly busy IRL, I tend to play loners, don't join clans, and/or isolated Magickers.

It's just too difficult to try and change the world when you're logging on at 2AM PST.

[boog]

I don't think I've ever -been- involved directly in a plot, but I have been brought in by other players and to that I say thank you.

I suppose I've never been superbly interested in being in the thick of things. Sometimes I manage to ease my way in unintentionally, but most times I'm rather content and would rather have a personal plot flourished in some stupid way, like even an environmental emote, by a GM than have something tubularly world changing happen at my feet.

[Synthesis]

...most times I'm rather content and would rather have a personal plot flourished in some stupid way, like even an environmental emote, by a GM than have something tubularly world changing happen at my feet.

Oh man, are you gonna be disappointed when you give birth.

[boog]

...most times I'm rather content and would rather have a personal plot flourished in some stupid way, like even an environmental emote, by a GM than have something tubularly world changing happen at my feet.

Oh man, are you gonna be disappointed when you give birth.

Well, I -- heh. I guess I didn't pick my words very well.

[Cindy42]

I would love for something world-changing to be happening under my feet, and now I think I'm going to go for peak times more often. I wouldn't mind being fodder for a world-changing event, as long as it wasn't completely in vain and someone got RP out of it.

Please don't kill me now.

[Reiloth]

edit.

[number13]

It would nice if there was some (exciting, ready-made) roles you could just step into and go out to do plotty things at any hour -- peak or off-peak.  For example, way back when the mantis were running amok and had captured Luirs, if players could have created mantis PCs (without special app) then naturally there'd be Interesting Stuff To Do.  Hunting something other than static mobs, attempting trade or other agreements with the mantis (and trying not get caught doing so), scouting and reporting back activities to superiors.  Just running the gauntlet between cities would be more exciting, and give merchants a reason to hire guards.

Imagine if two noble Houses were having a lukewarm war, for example, with open fighting out in the desert over some captureable points. With some advertising that it's a supported plot --  a scoreboard showing some scant details and active calls for roles to fill out the partisan ranks -- then it could prompt interest, more active participation, and most importantly personal plots spawning off of the main plot.  Which House does a particular Byn Sarge support, via taking offered longterm contracts? How does that effect his ability to get business from the allies of the enemy House, or his relations Sergeant Amos, who has a longterm contract to support the enemy House? Which side will each of the merchant Houses take, or each of the PC templars? It's up the PCs to decide.

But the whole thing would peter out if PC noble A or PC noble B decides to store (or ends up dead), so a plot like that would need a staff member (or two) prodding the basic conflict along, while allowing players to generate the outcomes and particular details.  The end-game, rather than being solved by Tek stomping all involved, should be determined by a (somewhat) transparent scoring mechanism.

[Cindy42]

a lukewarm war sounds fantastic.

get Kurac as one of those houses, that ought to be interesting. I can't see Kadius gettings its frilly, obscenely proper hands dirty.

get a rare tribe involved. like the halflings or the mantis, whom i'm assuming aren't seen by much of the PC population, and might as well live on a moon.

[Qzzrbl]

I can't see Kadius gettings its frilly, obscenely proper hands dirty.

You'd be amazingly surprised.

[Cutthroat]

No clan is above doing something "dirty", despite its appearances. When you understand this, you understand Armageddon.

That said, it's my opinion that conflicts need to be entirely player-based. Number13's idea sounds okay, but it's precisely the kind of thing that is possible with barely any staff assistance at all. I would say that two or more groups could fight over a point as soon as something valuable appears at that point. It's basically up to staff to decide what the shifting sands reveal. After that, they can sit back and watch what happens as Kurac and Fale fight over a huge thodeliv deposit halfway to Red Storm, or as tribes fight over a food-filled cave, etc.

If a good conflict gets going that all participants are interested in, you don't have to worry about storage as much. If people die, well, I guess they lost the fight.

[number13]

...but it's precisely the kind of thing that is possible with barely any staff assistance at all.

Sure is, that's what's great about it. PCs can run around conflicting with each other without staff having to be there to invent plot points.  But I submit it would be better if the ongoing drive came from a set of essentially immortal NPCs, supported by a call for roles, and advertised outside of game.  Right now, there could be an awesome conflict ongoing that I'd want to build a character for, but I have no way of knowing this, so I run off to play *whatever* instead.

Also, a scoring mechanism to determine who is 'winning' would help off-peak players to participate and give a clear direction to everyone else.  Let's say the premise of the war is Fale is trying to take a piece of Kuraci's spice monopoly -- specifically the Allanaki market. If smuggling in raw, rare spice to sell to a Fale NPC gives a point towards victory: it gives off-peak spice-sifters, militia, Fale nobles, and Kuraci opposition something to do without ongoing staff supervision.  Add some tough Fale partisan and Kuraci worker NPC camps that can be raided, with a memory of who did the raiding so that the proper parties can be punished/rewarded.

[Marshmellow]

The one thing that can be said for world-affecting plots, or staff driving some plots is that staff-driven plots by some NPC have more continuity.  PCs die all the time, and all sorts of things they were doing that aren't world-affecting suddenly just cease.  Sometimes that is too bad.

That being said, I generally get involved in those smaller plots that were developed by PCs without staff intervention/assistance more than I ever got involved in the staff-driven things.

[Drayab]

I think the plots that spawned from the flood in Tuluk are a good model for how things can work well. There were tasks for the lowliest grebber, House artisans made stuff, there were RPTs with bards, and who knows what else? And from my perspective, it was being run by players in sponsored roles. What the staff did is make the flood happen, and then they made changes to the world that reflected the actions of the players as things progressed. Couldn't ask for better.

[Fredd]

PLayer leaders have the ability to start worldwide plots, for the most part.

Kadius wants to bump off salarr's hunters to get the best stuff? they can authorize that. Probably get some crap though.

Winrothol wants to roam south, knock off a militia partol? Hey, It can be done

There family head MIGHT have bad things to say though.

Yeah, what I'm saying is that even in the "player driven plot" catagory, large plots will require IMM involvement, making it Immortal driven, in a sense.

So personally, I think the point is moot. I think Imm's should introduce some more things.

[Cindy42]

I believe players who aren't leaders should also strive to start plots--- plots that, obviously, don't feck with other plots, since a lot of non-leader PCs are in positions where they have high death rates. Maybe simpler types of plots. I should have clarified that. Plots for the unclanned.

Also: that level of noble and templar politics that seem out of reach of most commoner PCs, maybe the nobles and templars could hire additional aides or house servants, or cooks or concubines, who overhear these plots and hang out at local taverns--- and if templar hardnose already has two messengers and a concubine, he could hire someone on as a gardener, who takes a work stipend and purchases flowers and stuff to strew around the garden and house. some creative, non-coded jobs where the PC acts out their role, and if they slack off on it just fire them, and hire someone else.

other ideas for creative jobs: cook, language teacher, painter (who may have the noble pose and paint their picture, like how only rich nobility in the renaissaince could afford pictures) maybe one of those odd rare-items-collector type of person, who is given all they need to collect certain things for said noble or templar; like a wagon, a 'gicker, some food, water and weapons, to get rare things, like that one purple worm that's supposed to be a good spice on food (its in the docs and its rare) or a hobbit, or a mutant, if said noble is a scientist.

these probably exist in-game... i really want to be one.

[Sam]

The only problem with that is the noble/templar has a limited amount of money to spend. They can't keep up with trends, hire a gardner, hire a cook, hire a language teacher, hire an assassin, hire a pickpocket, and hire a personal aide.

[maxid]

There are a LOT of ways for a clever noble/templar to -make- money, that are entirely IC.

[Spider]

Sometimes just being a templar is enough to get all the employees you need.

[Fredd]

I've done all those side jobs before. they can be fun. And just arranging food and water can be payment enough sometimes

[Cindy42]

The only problem with that is the noble/templar has a limited amount of money to spend. They can't keep up with trends, hire a gardner, hire a cook, hire a language teacher, hire an assassin, hire a pickpocket, and hire a personal aide.

I bet Muk Utep and Tektolnes could, from behind curtains, casting mysterious and powerfully imbued magick shadows, hire as many folks as they wanted... though i guess working for them would impede their mysteriousness a bit.

[number13]

The only problem with that is the noble/templar has a limited amount of money to spend. They can't keep up with trends, hire a gardner, hire a cook, hire a language teacher, hire an assassin, hire a pickpocket, and hire a personal aide.

Money really isn't the limiting factor. It's available, willing players.

[boog]

Estoy disponible y dispuesto. Mas 'soy', really.

[Ami]

I've never had a personal plot, nor have I been involved in a world plot. 

[Synthesis]

I've never had a personal plot, nor have I been involved in a world plot. 

Play a dwarf?

[spicemustflow]

How would that help?

[Synthesis]

How would that help?

I've never had a personal plot...

Dwarves, whose origins are unknown, typically attempt to find one single
    goal (called a Focus) to which they adhere, and they will never abandon
    that goal for as long as they live (or until it is completed, when a
    dwarf feels the need to set himself or herself to a new, more difficult
    task than the last).

[spicemustflow]

Alright, "personal" plots I missed that part.

[maxid]

Money really isn't the limiting factor. It's available, willing players.

[Reiloth]

I can't see Kadius gettings its frilly, obscenely proper hands dirty.

You'd be amazingly surprised.

Sharlo Kadius, anyone? Is this thing on?

[Spice Spice Baby]

I can't see Kadius gettings its frilly, obscenely proper hands dirty.

You'd be amazingly surprised.

Sharlo Kadius, anyone? Is this thing on?

Between Sharlo, Jubaal, and Markua there was so much dirty in Kadius for a while there that I imagine those three players had to wash their hands after playing Arm.

Good times.

[Grey Area]

I can't see Kadius gettings its frilly, obscenely proper hands dirty.

All my characters in Kadius were up to their eyebrows in grit and skullduggery.

To a completely insane degree.

I think you might be confusing House Kadius with some other massively cutthroat purveyor of luxury goods.

[hyzhenhok]

I've never had a personal plot, nor have I been involved in a world plot. 

Play a dwarf?

Seconded. Make sure your focus requires you to deal with peoples, and plots come out of nowhere.

My favorite dwarf so far walked out of character gen into a bar, started a plot around the focus, and then shit started going down. Hopefully I still have the log, it's about that time....

[My 2 sids]

Besides simply starting plots,  I think players (when possible) should assist others with their plots.

Leave some coin in your inventory: let that breed continue on her plot to become a great thief

Buy from PCs whenever possible:  there's nothing wrong with sandcloth or sandstone -- deck your PC out (or, if you've the coin, buy something for a "family member" or "friend"

Pick one log in to "show up" -- start a brawl, start a conversation, start a staring contest... the point is find some way your PC would interact with others (yes, probably in some tavern)
Some fun times happen totally random -- simply because PCs are around and interacting.

[Marshmellow]

For those saying they aren't getting involved in personal plots... yes you are.  You just aren't thinking of them as plots.  A plot is the storyline of a character/story.  Your character has one, however uninterested in it you may be.

[number13]

I've never had a personal plot, nor have I been involved in a world plot.

The easiest mass-scale plot for a single player to conjure up is The Chase.

Step one is dong something rotten enough that nobles, templars, and/or crimelords put a price on your head.  Your character should be something loathsome -- a half-elf, a dirty tribeless elf, rinthi scum, an ungemmed gicker, a messed mutant. This helps enforce the stereotypes in game, so that when Amos is hanging out with his best friend (a half-elven rinth-born gemmer with an extra arm growing out of his head), he might remember that he's supposed to hate this guy.

Step two is running around not getting caught whilst making your presence known.  Hiding out in the deepest hole you can find is easy mode.  You want to saunter down Caravan Road and poke your head into the Gaj from time to time. There's a few complications if you want The Chase to last longer than an hour.  You learn to deal with them after enduring a few failed attempts, but first and foremost, trust no one.  Even the friendly neighborhood criminals are probably in the templar's pocket.  The playerbase is pretty small, so bet on every PC being somehow connected to the powers-that-be.

One of the biggest mistakes I've made (and continue to make) is in trusting other players to not be asshats once they have your character in their clutches. So never surrender, do not accept getting caught, spam flee while in the grasp of the militia -- until you're ready for your PC's life to be over.  [You can make exceptions for long-lived templars.  OCCly, they tend not to be as kill-crazed as a 0-day noble or random warrior-classed bully. Or at least when they do kill you, it's usually a lot more fun.]

Make peace with the fact that the Chase ends.  You want it to end. That's the conclusion of the story.  But you also want to give your pursuers enough trouble that when the Chase does end, there's an epic execution or final duel to the death. One of my prouder moments in Arm was helping a would-be crimelord get his street-cred by jobbing to him in a final duel -- and this guy went on to do some pretty interesting things.

[HavokBlue]

Number13's post is good, and anyone finding themselves bored should try it.

It's fun. I promise.

[maxid]

Number13's post is good, and anyone finding themselves bored should try it.

It's fun. I promise.

[MeTekillot]

I can't see Kadius gettings its frilly, obscenely proper hands dirty.

You'd be amazingly surprised.

Cindy has obviously never played in Kadius ever.

[Cindy42]

I can't see Kadius gettings its frilly, obscenely proper hands dirty.

You'd be amazingly surprised.

Cindy has obviously never played in Kadius ever.

I tend to avoid situations where I can't move around as freely as I want, yes.

[FantasyWriter]

My Tuluki-inkied Kadian Merchant later Agent (guild merchant) would get a wild hair up his butt and occasionally set out to Allanak or to have smokes/drinks with tribals in Luir's or their respective camps, or just go 'shoot up some grub'.

He was also responsible for several assassinations (most being in-house-cleanup ,two of which he carried out personally), purposefully had the Tuluki Templarate believe he had committed treason in order to later lower the status of a prominate noble when the truth came out publicly.  He was also trying to become a (redacted for IC info) and believed himself a candidate to join (redacted for IC info).

So, Cindy, what your family is famous for can have as little or as much impact on your PCs personality and goals as you/they want them to.  If for no other reason, being a Kadian sets you at an advantage to gaining power due to nobility/the Templarate's reliance on you for their upper-class goods and services.

Oh yeah... he also got a kick out of walking around in Nak with his inks showing and copper jewelry well displayed, especially when meeting with Nobles/Templars.

[Lizzie]

My Kadian used to bribe a friend to raid her wagon just so her guards would have something fun to do on the way to Tuluk.

My other Kadian went where she wanted, when she wanted, and there really was no one ordering her to do otherwise. It really depends on your boss and your position in the House. If you're a hunter, you're expected to go out and explore, travel, kill stuff, greb stuff, and NOT hang around in the compound or the tavern for days on end. So it sounds more like something perfect for someone who wants freedom, but also pay.

[valeria]

My Kadian wasn't a namby-pamby princess either.

Anyone that thinks Kadians are less likely to be ruthless and vicious than any other organized group on the face of Zalanthas should think about how capitalism and dynastic-monopolistic families have worked throughout RL history.  I can't be the only one thinking of 'legitimate businesmen.'  Add how someone might go about obtaining and keeping a monopoly on Zalanthas... ye-ap.

[chrisdcoulombe]

Merchant house conflict; I saw it  mentioned on this thread and think It will occur naturally. If given time or something to fight over...conflict would be accelerated.  Perhaps something like "METAL" would be a great conflict starter, but any resource would do if supply became short enough.  Gmh conflict could be huge.  Could you imagine one Gmh moving in on another because of a conflict over territory or materials.  It could easily start  a minor war.  Think about alliances and who sides with who.  This is an excellent premise to create supplemented player driven plots.  Sometimes stuff just needs a little vitamin Imm.

That being said, I have already witnessed things supplemented so what is it that is holding everyone back.  I don't see a problem if you want a world plot move between all the city states creating conflict with rumors.  "rumors spread that Blah from Bah did something to piss off x."

[Reiloth]

Merchant Houses have plenty of inter-House conflict. You will most likely, unless you are involved, not see this conflict as they don't want issue with the Templars over it.

This is what makes House Kurac a difficult House to deal with, as they have their own Outpost, where their word is law. Sure, Salarr and Kadius own buildings inside of it, but if they sufficiently pissed off Kurac, they could easily shut them out.

[chrisdcoulombe]

Yes, however I am talking about something major to throw off the balance, not minor political squabbles.

[jstorrie]

The merchant houses like the balance. The balance is what allows them to be ballin'.

[Reiloth]

The merchant houses like the balance. The balance is what allows them to be ballin'.

Not only that, but usually individuals responsible for disrupting that balance are taken care of "In House". It may sound lame, but consider; if someone in the Mafia laid out a made man just to 'stir shit up' and 'cause a ruckus', he'd be sleeping with the fishes in no time.

[jstorrie]

Accordingly the key to doing any major balance-upsetting shit is to convince your superiors (meaning both the NPC characters, and the staff behind them), whether by hook or by crook, that it's a good idea first. Blackmail your house elders, or bribe them, or produce false evidence, or whatever.

I have little doubt that a PC could foment, for example, a Kurac-vs-Kadius war if they wanted to. But they'd have to go about it in such a manner that it would actually be possible in Zalanthas. Junior Agent Whatshisfuck will get slapped down hard if he just tries to do it solo.

[Fathi]

For what it's worth, I've got 2.5 to 3 years of playing in the Merchant Houses under my belt, and there have definitely been more than minor political squabbles. These events do not often take place beween the Houses themselves, but there have been huge upsets, unrests, murders, too-IC-to-mentions, and huge conflicts both inside each individual House and between the Houses and the various Templarates.

Kadius and Kurac probably won't go to war against each other because they are not direct competitors, and money is the primary concern of both establishments.

[number13]

Kadius and Kurac probably won't go to war against each other because they are not direct competitors, and money is the primary concern of both establishments.

Isn't that sort of the point though?  The status of the GMHs (or noble houses even) being chummy with each other by force of economics, Tek, Mek, and NPC fiat is more boring than Kadian and Kuraci forces having to actively stare down each other as they pass along the North Road and decide if it's worth the fight.

Or maybe, while overall the Houses are at 'peace', or at least not engaged in a shooting war, the Expeditionary forces of Kurac and the (...i don't know) Home and Garden division of Kadius are at odds -- and likely come to blows circumstances permitting.  Of course, these would be the subunits that would be populated by PCs. 

[Sam]

Kadius and Kurac are in direct conflict. They both want to get richer. They both would have to expand their markets to do so.
Kurac controls the tribal clothing market, tribal supply market, and some other things.
Kadius owns a few shops that are in direct conflict with that.

[Dresan]

Wait just a darn minute here...

Adhira won't spawn zombies to attack and eat all of Allanak.

And in other posts i'm reading say something about forced storage for players who reach the power to spawn a mass zombie invasion of all allanak.

...hmmm...wtf does all this mean... does it mean no zombies....OMGWTF?!? No Zombies!!!  


Yeah, yeah, yeah its not like that, i know, just playing, don't flame me.

I remember a time where the general playerbase had almost no ability to influence plots, where if you were really good, lucky, or if you had the right ooc connections, maybe you could find out about what the hell was going on during some of the larger world changing plots. It used to be the playerbase and especially the staff were so tight lipped about just about everything that at the end of the plots most people were often left thinking 'wow...That looked cool, I wonder what happened?'....let alone trying to find out -why- anything ever happened.   We were constantly told that cool things happened, we certainly got some indication of that, but the plot or storyline never really trickled down to the playerbase. We were basically were forced to take the staff's word that the plots that were going on were cool, mysterious and awesome.

Fast forward too the copper wars when all this began to change. Finally one of the few plots almost all the player base could look back on and say, wow, i know what happened and why. I don't think i'd have any problems finding out more information ICly even as a player today. I could honestly say it was a great plot. The change for more player driven stuff and the ability for players to influence more stuff really began to roll since then. I guess this what that ideal evolved into, staff mostly supporting only player driven plots. To be honest, i'd be speaking out of my ass if i said anything good or bad about the current state of the game regarding plots or anything else. I don't honestly know yet, however i will say that regardless of what it actually is, I believe the game is still in a better place then what it was so many moons ago. I also really agree with the poster that said that 'much has been sacrificed to get here', and i for one am glad since at the very least it seems like a better place to build from.  


Or at least i hope...sigh~ Zombies...  

[My 2 sids]

Kadius and Kurac are in direct conflict. They both want to get richer. They both would have to expand their markets to do so.

Exactly, they have to be able to expand their markets.  Regardless of what players may think, Zan isn't a Capitalistic society!!  These GMH exist because the nobility allow them to do so.  If they start making war, showing just how powerful they are, they'll draw attention they don't want.  And they'll be put down because commoners can't be allowed to accumulate true power and/or the idea they can have true power.

[Zoltan]

Kadius and Kurac are in direct conflict. They both want to get richer. They both would have to expand their markets to do so.

Exactly, they have to be able to expand their markets.  Regardless of what players may think, Zan isn't a Capitalistic society!!  These GMH exist because the nobility allow them to do so.  If they start making war, showing just how powerful they are, they'll draw attention they don't want.  And they'll be put down because commoners can't be allowed to accumulate true power and/or the idea they can have true power.

I'm glad you said that. Yes, Zalanthas is definitely NOT a capitalist society, even if players/PCs tend to unconsciously treat it that way. Such a thing can't truly exist in a world where omnipotent god-kings run things. Or at least, you certainly can't have that capitalist ideology (or you can, and interesting things can happen). That's one reason I'm glad that an indie, no matter how many coded coins they've accrued, just doesn't have the overall sway and perks of a "proper" house. No wagons or special buildings for indies! Because if you let -one- group claw its way up outside of the "proper channels", then maybe -anyone- could do it! And what would that do to society?! 

[number13]

These GMH exist because the nobility allow them to do so.  If they start making war, showing just how powerful they are, they'll draw attention they don't want.

House Kurac owns an outpost. They have an army that's been used to defend and liberate that outpost on multiple occasions.  Who is under the delusion that House Kurac isn't a powerful force?  Your argument might work for Salarr, Kadius, or any of the many minor merchant houses, but Kurac is clearly richer than and at least as potent as many noble houses -- with no effort at a cover-up.  It might not be polite to mention to Lord Dasari that the Kuraci could buy his house several times over, or crush it ease (Sun King permitting), but not even in Tuluk are the facts of Kuraci wealth a forbidden topic.  Every common gutterslug knows about Luirs.

[Nil AlSahni]

Only uh... no matter how rich they are... this sums up the entire reason they're not more powerful:

(Sun King permitting)

They can't freakin touch the sorcerer kings. They are screwed if the cities turn them out. Even if Kurac would be better off than the other GMHs, they are highly dependent on trade in them for business. And without that business, there IS no power.

[palomar]

These GMH exist because the nobility allow them to do so.  If they start making war, showing just how powerful they are, they'll draw attention they don't want.

House Kurac owns an outpost. They have an army that's been used to defend and liberate that outpost on multiple occasions.  Who is under the delusion that House Kurac isn't a powerful force?  Your argument might work for Salarr, Kadius, or any of the many minor merchant houses, but Kurac is clearly richer than and at least as potent as many noble houses -- with no effort at a cover-up.  It might not be polite to mention to Lord Dasari that the Kuraci could buy his house several times over, or crush it ease (Sun King permitting), but not even in Tuluk are the facts of Kuraci wealth a forbidden topic.  Every common gutterslug knows about Luirs.

Kurac's armed forces are nowhere near the numbers of the armies of either city-state. They also were not able to defend their Outpost on their own last time it was overrun, nor were they alone in the effort of liberating it.

They are powerful and very versatile, having lots of resources. However, a Noble house of either city-state is just that -- a part of a city-state with all it means in regards to support and resources. Sure, Kurac might be wealthy enough to buy the holdings of a Noble house several times over. That certainly does not mean they are able to.

Also, what Nil AlSahni said.

[Cindy42]

Wait just a darn minute here...

Adhira won't spawn zombies to attack and eat all of Allanak.

And in other posts i'm reading say something about forced storage for players who reach the power to spawn a mass zombie invasion of all allanak.

...hmmm...wtf does all this mean... does it mean no zombies....OMGWTF?!? No Zombies!!!  


Yeah, yeah, yeah its not like that, i know, just playing, don't flame me.

I remember a time where the general playerbase had almost no ability to influence plots, where if you were really good, lucky, or if you had the right ooc connections, maybe you could find out about what the hell was going on during some of the larger world changing plots. It used to be the playerbase and especially the staff were so tight lipped about just about everything that at the end of the plots most people were often left thinking 'wow...That looked cool, I wonder what happened?'....let alone trying to find out -why- anything ever happened.   We were constantly told that cool things happened, we certainly got some indication of that, but the plot or storyline never really trickled down to the playerbase. We were basically were forced to take the staff's word that the plots that were going on were cool, mysterious and awesome.

Fast forward too the copper wars when all this began to change. Finally one of the few plots almost all the player base could look back on and say, wow, i know what happened and why. I don't think i'd have any problems finding out more information ICly even as a player today. I could honestly say it was a great plot. The change for more player driven stuff and the ability for players to influence more stuff really began to roll since then. I guess this what that ideal evolved into, staff mostly supporting only player driven plots. To be honest, i'd be speaking out of my ass if i said anything good or bad about the current state of the game regarding plots or anything else. I don't honestly know yet, however i will say that regardless of what it actually is, I believe the game is still in a better place then what it was so many moons ago. I also really agree with the poster that said that 'much has been sacrificed to get here', and i for one am glad since at the very least it seems like a better place to build from.  


Or at least i hope...sigh~ Zombies...  

i thought players only got guilds with skills like that once they proved they could be trusted with power. still get stored? what if they sent in a request to do something productive with the power, like, create a new city or village.

[FantasyWriter]

'Power' in Armageddon can and does go far beyond what the code gives you.

[number13]

Sorry, I know I shouldn't perpetuate this but:

The question isn't whether or not Kurac can (or would even want) to take down Mek, Tek, or the Sandlord.  The question is if Kurac could plausibly have a lukewarm war with another merchant house.  Sam's theory was that the templars or nobles would squash a merchant war, because it would signal to the population that commoners can have Stuff.  But... Kurac already has plenty of visible power.

[Synthesis]

Until Kurac has some Wootzie-da motherfucker who can transform into a dragon and zorch an army of rebellious dwarves, I'm pretty sure they can STFU and DIAF as far as Tektolnes is concerned.

[Spice Spice Baby]

If you take a peek at this doc here, you'll see that House Delann nee Kohmar was almost completely wiped out by House Kadius. While the docs say it was a political clash, it's still an indicator of a fairly large conflict that resulted in considerable losses for one party. Further down, we see that Kurac completely absorbed House Deuring, though the means by which it happened aren't detailed.

There's no mention of how each city's templars and nobles reacted to these events, but they obviously didn't squash the conflicts out of existence.

My opinion on the matter is that the GMHs could go to war all they wanted with each other, but the powers that be would probably step in as soon as the struggle fell outside the bounds of inter-merchant conflict.

[Sam]

That wasn't my theory, number13.
My theory is this:
Kurac and Kadius are in indirect conflict already because they both want to get richer and Kurac owns several markets and Kadius owns several markets.
Kadius owns: Hunter's Paradise, a material-for-sale building, and various others.
Kurac owns: The majority of tribal trade (which includes weapons, materials, etc), spice, wagons, and others.
Bynn owns: Security
Salarr owns: Weapons, and other secretive things (like all the rest)

If you look at what Kurac is apart of, they are in direct conflict with Kadius and Salarr. Kurac owns a large portion of the weapons industry. Kurac owns a large part of the clothing industry. Kadius owns a small portion of the materials trade.
For anyone of them to get richer, they need to interfere, subvert, and manipulate the other houses to build favor among nobles and templars. Open war would be too easy and Tuluk hates open war, Allanak loves it.

[Marshmellow]

Sam, you're misinterpreting what the GMHs' interests are, I think.  They aren't in conflict with each other because their target markets are very different, on the whole.  The only overlaps are hardly worth mentioning because they are low-priority for one House, the other House that has it high-priority being a clear victor in the economic conflict there.  Why would they go to war?  They have too much to lose.  They will only war on someone smaller than them, someone against which they are sure to win with minimal losses.

IMHO, having them go to war because the players think it would be exciting is meta-gaming.

[Sam]

Who said anything about open war? Subversion, interference, and manipulation.

[Barzalene]

We used to be able to rely on metagaming from above. Now we need to make our own. Perfect? No. Better than a game where nothing happens? Yup.

[hyzhenhok]

That wasn't my theory, number13.
My theory is this:
Kurac and Kadius are in indirect conflict already because they both want to get richer and Kurac owns several markets and Kadius owns several markets.
Kadius owns: Hunter's Paradise, a material-for-sale building, and various others.
Kurac owns: The majority of tribal trade (which includes weapons, materials, etc), spice, wagons, and others.
Bynn owns: Security
Salarr owns: Weapons, and other secretive things (like all the rest)

If you look at what Kurac is apart of, they are in direct conflict with Kadius and Salarr. Kurac owns a large portion of the weapons industry. Kurac owns a large part of the clothing industry. Kadius owns a small portion of the materials trade.
For anyone of them to get richer, they need to interfere, subvert, and manipulate the other houses to build favor among nobles and templars. Open war would be too easy and Tuluk hates open war, Allanak loves it.

Your mistake is you're assuming wealth is zero-sum, when even in Zalanthas it is not. The merchant houses can all grow richer without stealing wealth from one another.

Though I do think there's no reason they couldn't have low-level conflict. PC agent A can harass PC agent B's business without trying to take on the entirety of Agent B's house.

[Zoltan]

That wasn't my theory, number13.
My theory is this:
Kurac and Kadius are in indirect conflict already because they both want to get richer and Kurac owns several markets and Kadius owns several markets.
Kadius owns: Hunter's Paradise, a material-for-sale building, and various others.
Kurac owns: The majority of tribal trade (which includes weapons, materials, etc), spice, wagons, and others.
Bynn owns: Security
Salarr owns: Weapons, and other secretive things (like all the rest)

If you look at what Kurac is apart of, they are in direct conflict with Kadius and Salarr. Kurac owns a large portion of the weapons industry. Kurac owns a large part of the clothing industry. Kadius owns a small portion of the materials trade.
For anyone of them to get richer, they need to interfere, subvert, and manipulate the other houses to build favor among nobles and templars. Open war would be too easy and Tuluk hates open war, Allanak loves it.

Your mistake is you're assuming wealth is zero-sum, when even in Zalanthas it is not. The merchant houses can all grow richer without stealing wealth from one another.

Though I do think there's no reason they couldn't have low-level conflict. PC agent A can harass PC agent B's business without trying to take on the entirety of Agent B's house.

Yeah, these sorts of manipulations happen. By their nature they tend to be sekret and low-impact, however. It will forever be the problem of political play: from the outside looking in, nothing seems to be happening.

[Cindy42]

That wasn't my theory, number13.
My theory is this:
Kurac and Kadius are in indirect conflict already because they both want to get richer and Kurac owns several markets and Kadius owns several markets.
Kadius owns: Hunter's Paradise, a material-for-sale building, and various others.
Kurac owns: The majority of tribal trade (which includes weapons, materials, etc), spice, wagons, and others.
Bynn owns: Security
Salarr owns: Weapons, and other secretive things (like all the rest)

If you look at what Kurac is apart of, they are in direct conflict with Kadius and Salarr. Kurac owns a large portion of the weapons industry. Kurac owns a large part of the clothing industry. Kadius owns a small portion of the materials trade.
For anyone of them to get richer, they need to interfere, subvert, and manipulate the other houses to build favor among nobles and templars. Open war would be too easy and Tuluk hates open war, Allanak loves it.

Your mistake is you're assuming wealth is zero-sum, when even in Zalanthas it is not. The merchant houses can all grow richer without stealing wealth from one another.

Though I do think there's no reason they couldn't have low-level conflict. PC agent A can harass PC agent B's business without trying to take on the entirety of Agent B's house.

Yeah, these sorts of manipulations happen. By their nature they tend to be sekret and low-impact, however. It will forever be the problem of political play: from the outside looking in, nothing seems to be happening.

makes it easier to pin the blame on some random douche walking by. probably better if they were human, commoner, not actually affiliated with your house, and appearing as least somewhat disreputable. (humans only are involved with merchant houses for the most part, nobles are better, and don't get into actual trouble with anyone, according to the whim of the highlord nearest, so just say this guy killed one of your reputable merchants, when in fact you did it, for political purposes, and had a hell of a time rping their death last night.)

[Sam]

That wasn't my theory, number13.
My theory is this:
Kurac and Kadius are in indirect conflict already because they both want to get richer and Kurac owns several markets and Kadius owns several markets.
Kadius owns: Hunter's Paradise, a material-for-sale building, and various others.
Kurac owns: The majority of tribal trade (which includes weapons, materials, etc), spice, wagons, and others.
Bynn owns: Security
Salarr owns: Weapons, and other secretive things (like all the rest)

If you look at what Kurac is apart of, they are in direct conflict with Kadius and Salarr. Kurac owns a large portion of the weapons industry. Kurac owns a large part of the clothing industry. Kadius owns a small portion of the materials trade.
For anyone of them to get richer, they need to interfere, subvert, and manipulate the other houses to build favor among nobles and templars. Open war would be too easy and Tuluk hates open war, Allanak loves it.

Your mistake is you're assuming wealth is zero-sum, when even in Zalanthas it is not. The merchant houses can all grow richer without stealing wealth from one another.

Though I do think there's no reason they couldn't have low-level conflict. PC agent A can harass PC agent B's business without trying to take on the entirety of Agent B's house.

Finite resources = zero sum game.

Wealth is a zero sum game when you are dealing with monopolies. It isn't a zero sum game when you are dealing with two "satisfied with their lot in life" houses. You don't have that kinda merchant house in Arm. Merchant houses in Arm can only get soo rich before they must start taking it from the other houses by either direct or indirect force. Only one merchant house can be the richest. Only one merchant house can be the most powerful. One house may be both, or two may be either, but two houses cannot be the richest and most powerful. Who would be satisfied being second place?

[hyzhenhok]

That wasn't my theory, number13.
My theory is this:
Kurac and Kadius are in indirect conflict already because they both want to get richer and Kurac owns several markets and Kadius owns several markets.
Kadius owns: Hunter's Paradise, a material-for-sale building, and various others.
Kurac owns: The majority of tribal trade (which includes weapons, materials, etc), spice, wagons, and others.
Bynn owns: Security
Salarr owns: Weapons, and other secretive things (like all the rest)

If you look at what Kurac is apart of, they are in direct conflict with Kadius and Salarr. Kurac owns a large portion of the weapons industry. Kurac owns a large part of the clothing industry. Kadius owns a small portion of the materials trade.
For anyone of them to get richer, they need to interfere, subvert, and manipulate the other houses to build favor among nobles and templars. Open war would be too easy and Tuluk hates open war, Allanak loves it.

Your mistake is you're assuming wealth is zero-sum, when even in Zalanthas it is not. The merchant houses can all grow richer without stealing wealth from one another.

Though I do think there's no reason they couldn't have low-level conflict. PC agent A can harass PC agent B's business without trying to take on the entirety of Agent B's house.

Finite resources = zero sum game.

Wealth is a zero sum game when you are dealing with monopolies. It isn't a zero sum game when you are dealing with two "satisfied with their lot in life" houses. You don't have that kinda merchant house in Arm. Merchant houses in Arm can only get soo rich before they must start taking it from the other houses by either direct or indirect force. Only one merchant house can be the richest. Only one merchant house can be the most powerful. One house may be both, or two may be either, but two houses cannot be the richest and most powerful. Who would be satisfied being second place?

There are no more finite resources in Zalanthas than there are on Earth. Specifically, there is no shortage of resources left unclaimed on Zalanthas. I'm not sure what a world with all resources claimed and in use would look like, but Zalanthas is certainly not it.

[BleakOne]

That wasn't my theory, number13.
My theory is this:
Kurac and Kadius are in indirect conflict already because they both want to get richer and Kurac owns several markets and Kadius owns several markets.
Kadius owns: Hunter's Paradise, a material-for-sale building, and various others.
Kurac owns: The majority of tribal trade (which includes weapons, materials, etc), spice, wagons, and others.
Bynn owns: Security
Salarr owns: Weapons, and other secretive things (like all the rest)

If you look at what Kurac is apart of, they are in direct conflict with Kadius and Salarr. Kurac owns a large portion of the weapons industry. Kurac owns a large part of the clothing industry. Kadius owns a small portion of the materials trade.
For anyone of them to get richer, they need to interfere, subvert, and manipulate the other houses to build favor among nobles and templars. Open war would be too easy and Tuluk hates open war, Allanak loves it.

Your mistake is you're assuming wealth is zero-sum, when even in Zalanthas it is not. The merchant houses can all grow richer without stealing wealth from one another.

Though I do think there's no reason they couldn't have low-level conflict. PC agent A can harass PC agent B's business without trying to take on the entirety of Agent B's house.

Finite resources = zero sum game.

Wealth is a zero sum game when you are dealing with monopolies. It isn't a zero sum game when you are dealing with two "satisfied with their lot in life" houses. You don't have that kinda merchant house in Arm. Merchant houses in Arm can only get soo rich before they must start taking it from the other houses by either direct or indirect force. Only one merchant house can be the richest. Only one merchant house can be the most powerful. One house may be both, or two may be either, but two houses cannot be the richest and most powerful. Who would be satisfied being second place?

There are no more finite resources in Zalanthas than there are on Earth. Specifically, there is no shortage of resources left unclaimed on Zalanthas. I'm not sure what a world with all resources claimed and in use would look like, but Zalanthas is certainly not it.

I mostly agree there, although feel the need to point out that the Known isn't anywhere near as big as Earth, and some of the resources on it are quite scarce compared to Earth (metals, food, water supplies and such)

[hyzhenhok]

I mostly agree there, although feel the need to point out that the Known isn't anywhere near as big as Earth, and some of the resources on it are quite scarce compared to Earth (metals, food, water supplies and such)

The population is much smaller, too.

But the main thing is that there is plenty of untamed wilderness, filled with obsidian, glass, wild animals, wood, and other valuable resources. It's arguable that occasionally, a House might see more gain and less risk in an operation to steal clout/business from a rival than some other expedition or initiative. But all the time? Certainly not.

[Semper]

I mostly agree there, although feel the need to point out that the Known isn't anywhere near as big as Earth, and some of the resources on it are quite scarce compared to Earth (metals, food, water supplies and such)

The population is much smaller, too.

But the main thing is that there is plenty of untamed wilderness, filled with obsidian, glass, wild animals, wood, and other valuable resources. It's arguable that occasionally, a House might see more gain and less risk in an operation to steal clout/business from a rival than some other expedition or initiative. But all the time? Certainly not.

The BIIIIIG difference between Earth and Zalanthas is the transportation/travel capabilities. There are entire countries that are sustained only on the import of food, and could not possibly sustain their population with their own agricultural capabilities.

The thing with Zalanthas is even if there are a lot of untamed wildnerness, it's not accessible to many of the civilized city-states/GMH's because of the dangers involved to access them. Thus, there IS a shortage of resources.

[number13]

There's a discrepancy between resources available in game via code and resources available in the world via fluff.  The average PC (esp. clanned) isn't going to ever really want for food. Yet, there's starving NPCs littering the streets.

#1 thing that could promote conflict between PCs is if there was some constraint on available resources.  For example, what if there was just one obsidian quarry available to PCs?  Now you have a point of contention between obsidian miners and a natural gathering spot.

Or just a few available rooms for safe timber logging might prove a better example, especially if directives from up on high set multiple House agents to procuring wood for construction.   There's all sorts of conflict and interaction that could arise from that sort of thing : fending off independents, hiring guards to protect workers from halflings, dealing with whichever noble has charge over the Grey Forest, hiring thugs or elves to raid another agent's work camp or aggressive thieves to raid a storage. And since the job to chop wood would end up in the hands of the lowly grebber PCs, the activities surrounding the conflict would be more visible to the playerbase than the typical skulky, backroom dealings.

[Barzalene]

I like this idea.

[musashi]

I think it's true to say that most PC's do not feel the pinch when it comes to Zalanthas being a resource scarce world according to theme.

That's a code issue. Resources are codedly infinite. Animals always respawn. You can forage constantly in the same room until Arm2 finally comes out.

And then on the flip side, PC's will seriously feel conflict over the silliest things just becasuse code-wise, they are rare.

Imagine how many people would kill just to possess a blind-fold that codedly worked; or a mask that hid your mdesc. You know, staff loaded things that you can't get anywhere else.

I don't have a ready solution to these problems aside from saying: Try and keep the game world in your mind when you RP and remember that just because the code allows something, it doesn't mean you should do it.  

[Nil AlSahni]

I think it's true to say that most PC's do not feel the pinch when it comes to Zalanthas being a resource scarce world according to theme.

That's a code issue. Resources are codedly infinite. Animals always respawn. You can forage constantly in the same room until Arm2 finally comes out.

And then on the flip side, PC's will seriously feel conflict over the silliest things just becasuse code-wise, they are rare.

Imagine how many people would kill just to possess a blind-fold that codedly worked; or a mask that hid your mdesc. You know, staff loaded things that you can't get anywhere else.

I don't have a ready solution to these problems aside from saying: Try and keep the game world in your mind when you RP and remember that just because the code allows something, it doesn't mean you should do it.  

1. If everyone reported responsibly (and even sometimes when they likely don't), places would change to reflect things. I'm sure many people here know of at least 1 fairly popular wilderness room which you can no longer get resources from.

2. (Though it was a different poster who suggested it): Yes, having just one of those places sounds like a great way to drive conflict and so on and so forth - until you take into account the people who hoarde, and if you're a burglar, you get to see how many this is, too - who have tons and tons and tons and tons of shit. So it's all fun and games until they take their dwarven ranger with the focus to collect all the raw obsidian in the world there, and start cleaning the entire thing out, all the time, every day, keeping anyone who DOES need it from getting it - and then quitting out or hiding to keep from facing consequences.

3. There were masks that hid mdescs once. They were taken out because of the ridiculous amounts of abuse. Just like apartment keys that didn't rotate, and people who would collect keyrings of all the apartment keys in the known and then go pick them up with their new pcs, etc. So really, I doubt staff would load them, considering they existed and have been taken out for a reason, like sandslits with glass lenses and sandwiches.

[musashi]

My point had nothing to do with advocating for masks that hide your mdesc to once again be available in game.

My point was that people will enact lots of conflict over things that are codedly scarce resources, even if the resources are not scarce according to the game's theme.

And on the flip side, even if something is supposed to be scarce according to the game's theme, if it isn't codedly, people tend to treat it cheaply.

[hyzhenhok]

I mostly agree there, although feel the need to point out that the Known isn't anywhere near as big as Earth, and some of the resources on it are quite scarce compared to Earth (metals, food, water supplies and such)

The population is much smaller, too.

But the main thing is that there is plenty of untamed wilderness, filled with obsidian, glass, wild animals, wood, and other valuable resources. It's arguable that occasionally, a House might see more gain and less risk in an operation to steal clout/business from a rival than some other expedition or initiative. But all the time? Certainly not.

The BIIIIIG difference between Earth and Zalanthas is the transportation/travel capabilities. There are entire countries that are sustained only on the import of food, and could not possibly sustain their population with their own agricultural capabilities.

The thing with Zalanthas is even if there are a lot of untamed wildnerness, it's not accessible to many of the civilized city-states/GMH's because of the dangers involved to access them. Thus, there IS a shortage of resources.

Not really. As long as sunlight is adding energy to the ecosystem, it's hard to have finite organic resources. Inorganic resources besides metal are likely present in abundance in the earth's crust (like obsidian---a volcano recently appeared near Allanak. I doubt they'll run out of obsidian any time soon).

And my point was that while many resources available in the wild are dangerous to exploit, they are much less dangerous to pursue that picking a fight with one of the other Great Merchant Houses. As long as there is anything that can possibly be taken from the wilds, it's wrong to say Zalanthan economics are zero-sum. If it appears zero-sum, that's because Nenyuk scoops up and hoards the wealth of all the dead PC's.

Scarcity of food and water is a problem for a masses. It doesn't apply to GMHs. One of the reasons the masses are so screwed is because of GMH monopolies, after all.